please look directly up from your post and read mine. To me, and to most people, there is no problem with swift swim. Its not the issue, so stop trying to ban it. There's no reason to ban something that has such a large number of ways to counter, other than just switching in a different weather user.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
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please look directly up from your post and read mine. To me, and to most people, there is no problem with swift swim. Its not the issue, so stop trying to ban it. There's no reason to ban something that has such a large number of ways to counter, other than just switching in a different weather user.
There's no need to. We all know pretty much for a fact that swift swim is not broken, even in drizzle, by itself. We do not want to try experimenting with suspect tests to cause us to take many more to get a stable meta. Try reading my posts please, you just might be able to agree with us. You haven't shown me a single way that swift swim is broken, and no one is going to take you seriously until you can.
All the swimmers are walled pretty easy. Swift swim? not broken. Prove to me that it is (meaning that a pokemon with swift swim is nearly impossible to stop just by itself) and i'll give you a cookie... and maybe take your argument seriously.
edit: speculation won't work btw, please do the calc for yourself and prove it the way the rest of us do before we talk about a topic.
All you ever do is say "That's how it is. You're wrong. Listen to me". That's why no one wants to read your posts. If you want to see reasons why swift swim is broken go read the last 10 pages or so because I'm tired of repeating the same things only to have you come in 5 pages later and say "nope you didn't prove anything. I'm right, you're wrong".
Your Darkrai analogy doesn't work at all for a number of reasons: we never actually tested Darkrai without Dark Void so who's to say Dark Void wasn't doing all the work? Personally I thought Darkrai was broken despite Dark Void but, you never know, with the appropriate testing I could have been convinced otherwise. Additionally I would argue that a separate test for Dark Void-less Darkrai would have been a waste of time to an extent, as it only affects one Pokemon. Rain deserves more attention as it affects many more Pokemon and even some team archetypes.
Read the part that I bolded, as that's where you're wrong. You can't claim that Drizzle is broken "in and of itself" without the proper testing. Therefore it does make logical sense to at least consider banning Swift Swim and determine wether Drizzle is broken in its own right.
Why? I say, who cares that Swift Swim is near-useless without Drizzle around. Let me give you an actual, Pokemon-related analogy (lol zombies). I'm not sure if the programers got around to it, but regarding Acid Rain, last I heard the plan was to implement it, but have a clause disallowing Castform and Cherrim from play. Are those two broken in their own right? No, but Acid Rain makes it such that using those two froze the game.
So if we decide that Drizzle in and of itself isn't broken and that the benefits of having it around without the Speed boost outway the cons (i.e. we decide the benefits of following in-game mechanics outway the pain acid weather brings) then we should have no problem banning the broken aspects of permanent rain (i.e. we have no problem banning Cherrim and Castform).
The minute difference between the two scenarios (the fact that we were/will be forced to implement Acid Rain and make compromises vs. the fact that we have a choice on what to do with Rain) is irrelevant, the point is we have a clear instance where we're banning the benefactor (in this case perhaps the word "broken aspect" is more appropriate) and not the source.
Now let's look at this from the glass-half-full perspective: Drizzle brings the Water attack boost, Hydration Ability, etc. etc. into affect, all of which potentially aren't broken, but Swift Swim pushes it over the edge into "definitely broken territory." This statement is entirely true, and from my Acid Rain analogy, we should have no qualms about banning Swift Swim. The only questions that remain are:
- whether Drizzle in and of itself is actually broken (need to playtest)
- why people want to rush the testing process and don't want to spend a month really determining what aspect of permanent rain is broken. Seriously we're going to be having suspect tests for the next couple of months at least and it's not like we're putting everything else on hold just to test this. We can still evaluate Landlos and Latois and co. at the same time.
- whether, in the event that Drizzle proves to not be broken, we think the benefits of having permanent rain around outweigh the price of banning Swift Swim.
Really those are the only questions people should be raising on this issue, not stupid semantics about who's the source and what's the benefactor. There are too many intricacies in Pokemon these days to have over-encompassing theoretical viewpoints like that, we should be focusing on the pragmatic, i.e. what gives us the best metagame.
So it comes down to whether you guys want to spend a bit more time evaluating Drizzle properly or want to go the easy route of just banning Drizzle right away. Look, in the long-run (6 months or so) we're going to arrive at a stable metagame anyway, whether or not that includes permanent rain in some shape or form. But if we skimp on the rain-testing now, it's gonna be a lot harder to reconsider later on, and I know I won't be happy with the process 6 months from now if I know that we could have evaluated rain more fully.
I partially agree. This is about strategy and power, enjoyable isn't really a factor in competitive banning. But as far as the popularity of rain goes, I think that the meta-game will fix itself. Rain will be crazy popular as everyone tries to cash in on this obvious strategy, until enough people find ways to counter it. Then there will be a split between rain/counter-rain teams. There will then be variants in the ways that you can check rain while being able to counter the counter-rain teams. And so on and so forth until a proper diverse meta-game is born.
It's a strategy and like any strategy it can be countered with the right opposing strategy.
The problem that some people have with the rain just are two things:
-A problem with the Swift Swimmers that severely modify the speed tiers (and the same thing goes in a fewer level for Chlorophyll and SandThrow abusers).
-A problem with CM Manaphy, that with Rest and Hydration can be insufferable.
And i prefer Swift Swim and Hydration banned instead of Drizzle, Drizzle without these abilities isn´t broken, it just mean a bonus for water attacks, allows to use Thunder and Gale with 100% of acc. and allow the use of some minor (but useful) abilities like Dry Skin, and really, baning Drizzle can mean a direct attack to the balance of the metagame (and if Shandera is released it can be worse), IMO perhaps the metagame will be early balanced (and more balanced) if we just ban the abilities that raises the speed in weather (and Hydration) instead of banning entire playstiles.
@ Farukon o miru:
Why do people think that the HO rain team "archetype" will survive if we ban Swift Swim? Because it won't. That assumption is simply wrong. So when you people say we should save a team archetype, you should realize that you're killing one too.
For the people who say those teams can exist without Swift Swim, I dare you to theorymon up a viable HO rain team without Swift Swim.
Why do people think that the HO rain team "archetype" will survive if we ban Swift Swim? Because it won't. That assumption is simply wrong. So when you people say we should save a team archetype, you should realize that you're killing one too.
For the people who say those teams can exist without Swift Swim, I dare you to theorymon up a viable HO rain team without Swift Swim.
I've read all of the posts.
time to start listing i suppose since you seem to need evidence... though I figured the fact that it was never broken before would prove it to you enough. If you can wall a strategy for 8 turns, what makes that ninth different? or the tenth? only the restart of the sweep after fixing counters. thats the only change. most rain sweepers didn't get to stay in most of the 8 turns anyway because they'd get walled and be forced to switch. the problem tended to be getting back in in gen 4.
anyway, thats beside the point. I'll list a good number of counters to swift swim, and maybe you'll start to realize that i'm saying I'm right because I'm a math major and I've done the calculations, and i'm not just spouting about something that isn't proven to be true.
Kingdra:
stabs include water and dragon.
common moves are draco meteor, outrage, hydro pump, and waterfall. also commonly runs sub, and in this gen is commonly special-based for now. In older metas it commonly ran chesto+rest and DD. It is also known to run hp electric or signal beam on rare occasions, and more commonly ice beam.
Synopsis? probably the rain user with the most raw potential to do damage on both the special and physical side. For these calculations I will use the most common moves seen on various defensive pokes, and show the potential to counter.
Fisrt, nattorei.
Hydro pump on specially defensive natt does only 85-100 damage (including the rain buff) Draco meteor does less. Specially defensive natt also only takes 77-91 damage from waterfall boosted. This leaves plenty of room to throw out a leech seed, twave, and even a power whip for 162-192 damage with min attack. In most cases, just the twave alone is enough to crush any advantage that might be gained from swift swim.
Classic flinchrachi can live through a hydro pump (taking 261-308 damage) and can twave, revenge-stopping it but not countering.
Physically defensive (as is classic in CM sets) suicune can come in on DM for 156-183 damage. Then can easily take more hits as the satk goes down while using combinations of rest, CM and ice beam to take it down. (the water hits are joke damage, figured i'd mention just the relevant one on this set).
bronzong can come in on a revenge, Take the single hydropump, and trick or explode kingdra. Brozong also easily switches into waterfall.
Empoleon resists all of kingdra's attacks, and in fact can use the opportunity to grab a sub and counter possibly any other swift swimmers that might come in.
Specially defensive celebi can easily switch in and twave then rest, allowing it to come back later since it can take the hits no problem from DM (less than 1/3 hp). Psysically defensive celebi stops outrage just as well.
As always, if its a special kingdra, blissey laughs at it. If its phys Skarmory laughs at it.
I've barely glanced at the pokemon lists to make this, and i know there are many more viable counters... though really that is enough for kingdra.
Apply these same principle ideas to other pokemon with swift swim, and you'll find they all have large numbers of pokemon that wall them, some of which wall without even being threatened back.
Swift swim: not broken. End of story.
These pokemon just don't have the power to sweep whole teams, and need support... the issue is when they can switch around countering for a bunch of turns, then once your last counter dies switch in a swift swimmer and finish for free.
edit: I should mention that the only reason drizzle is seriously being looked at for ban is because it removes the setup turn for power and speed. Imagine if any pokemon got a +1 atk on their stab and +2 speed boost just for switching in. It's not the fact that those boosts are broken, its the fact that they take absolutely no setup turn.
With BW, we're blessed with the ability to see each others' teams before the battle starts. This change brings forth a new challenge for players to exploit; to be fair, the way we play the has changed. This, and a fresh generation of new attacks, abilities and powerful threats, means that this metagame is very difficult to be consistant with.
I have managed to assemble a collection of teams I can rely on. The most dependable are weather control.
Tyranitar / Hippowdon / Burunguru / Forretress / Randarosu / Rankarusu
Politoed / Nattori / Kingdra / Hippowdon / Randarosu / Doryuuzu
Skarmory / Burunguru / Tyranitar / Nattori / Magnezone / Randarosu
Torunerosu / Randarosu / Politoed / Kingdra / Rotom-W / Scizor
There hasn't been a match where I've looked back and said, "there was no way that I could have won that". Without question weather has the biggest impact on the metagame. Sand in particular due to the extra inducer, and the mad support/abilities all the streamers have.
With Wifi Clause enabled in Standard OU, I'm able to play out the match differently in my head, waiting for that opportunity to capitlize when it matters most. Prediction now seems more intense than ever, but with more purpose and importance because I'm aware of what my opponent's team is.
Rankarosu can be a pain to deal with. You see, after both me and my opponent enter mid/late-game territory, in comes Rankarusu. It has a free turn to either set up a Calm Mind or turn my team upside down with Trick Room. It's a 50/50 at this point because I *can* deal with both versions, but if my guess does not best match their choice of move, there's nothing I can do!
I have managed to assemble a collection of teams I can rely on. The most dependable are weather control.
Tyranitar / Hippowdon / Burunguru / Forretress / Randarosu / Rankarusu
Politoed / Nattori / Kingdra / Hippowdon / Randarosu / Doryuuzu
Skarmory / Burunguru / Tyranitar / Nattori / Magnezone / Randarosu
Torunerosu / Randarosu / Politoed / Kingdra / Rotom-W / Scizor
There hasn't been a match where I've looked back and said, "there was no way that I could have won that". Without question weather has the biggest impact on the metagame. Sand in particular due to the extra inducer, and the mad support/abilities all the streamers have.
With Wifi Clause enabled in Standard OU, I'm able to play out the match differently in my head, waiting for that opportunity to capitlize when it matters most. Prediction now seems more intense than ever, but with more purpose and importance because I'm aware of what my opponent's team is.
Rankarosu can be a pain to deal with. You see, after both me and my opponent enter mid/late-game territory, in comes Rankarusu. It has a free turn to either set up a Calm Mind or turn my team upside down with Trick Room. It's a 50/50 at this point because I *can* deal with both versions, but if my guess does not best match their choice of move, there's nothing I can do!
Are you speaking seriously? What about Dry Skin Toxicroak, Rain Dish Tentacruel (that is very useful in Rain stall teams), Pokemon like Zapdos or Starmie (or the sometimes mentioned Magnezone) that can make good use of Thunder, the usage of the power reduction of fire attacks as an defensive strategy (for pokemon like Scizor, Nattorei or Forry), or the power boost of water attacks as offensive strategy, etc.
Perhaps we can leave Hydratation then, but it is something that must be discussed, IMO a playstile is more important than a pokemon.
If you look at my post, you notice that I said rain offense dies. Nattorei, Forretress, and Tentacruel are not offensive.
To avoid repeating myself, I will ask you to please read post #874 on page 35. It describes why rain offense won't be around.
The tl;dr version is that a 1.5x boost won't do jack squat. Certainly not enough that you should dedicate an entire team slot to get it. And the pokemon who don't need double speed are the ones who can't sweep worth beans. But at least read the post.
@DahliaSky
I'm sorry, but a lot of your calculations aren't right.
And if anyone wants actual percentages, I can give those too.
I only used numbers because that is what Dahlia used.
DahliaSky said:
Also, the only one of those pokemon that even runs max Sp Def is Nattorei. The other all use different EV spreads. So quite frankly, almost none of that was realistic.
missed LO on those, sorry xD but the important ones still stand (i also mentioned about the others that they were only able to get in on revenge, but thanks for reiterating), and the point is that there are a good deal more as well. sorry for missing LO.
Also it is a good deal realistic since the sets were not mostly using sdef, and most of what i said stood, just with different numbers. rachi still lived, as did zong. the only thing i was super wrong about was empoleon, so vs LO i would suggest using it to revenge instead of counter as well given the increased hits.
Yeah, you did mention the revenge-killing.
And missing LO might have done it. I don't feel like running more calcs, but I'll assume that yours are correct now.
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SlimMan said:
If after reading through everything you still do not understand the difference between an 8 turn swift swim sweep and a permanent one, then you really shouldn't be arguing in this thread.
Walling rain for 8 turns was never easy to begin with but it was doable. What makes it different on the 9th and 10th turn? Your chances of mis predicting or getting out predicted increases with every turn. Let's say your opponent has a ludicolo out and you don't have any hard counters like blissey. Instead you have a vaporeon and a zapdos. You can do so many things to stall out the 8 turns. You can switch between zapdos taking giga drain + focus blast and vaporeon taking hydro pump + ice beam. You can wish protect stall every other turn with vaporeon. You can attempt to roost stall for a bit with zapdos.
But what happens when rain doesn't end? Switching back and forth wears you down eventually and sooner or later, your opponent is going to catch on and use ice beam on your vaporeon and catch zapdos on the switch. Or you will over predict and keep vaporeon in on a giga drain. Or you will eventually eat a critical hit and lose something.
8 turn rain gave you breathing room to strike back while they had to set up rain again. Permanent rain means they continuously hit you and keep you on the defensive for the entire game.
Let's see
Nattorei: 3HKOed. Can only switch into kingdra and force it out once.
Jirachi: 2HKOed not a counter.
Suicune: 3HKOed by specs hydro pump. Can't do shit to Kingdra.
Bronzong: 2HKOed not a counter.
Empoleon: 3HKOed by specs hydro pump. Can't do shit to Kingdra.
Celebi: No one uses specially defensive celebi but nevertheless still 3HKOed by hydro pump.
The point you're missing is that no one is denying these pokemon have counters. They just have very few counters and the chances that any given team has more than 2 of these said counters is pretty low. If they do, then it's probably not a very good standard team and was built specifically to combat rain.
If your team consisted of nattorei, jirachi, suicune, bronzong, empoleon and celebi then yes you probably will beat a rain team but it will be a pretty shit team against everything else.
Again, you fail to understand that neither of these factors individually makes a pokemon broken. Download and adaptability are not broken because they give you +1 attack or double stab with no setup. Quick feet is not broken because it gives you +1 speed without setup. However getting +1 attack +2 speed with no setup is broken. A lot of it has to do with the +2 speed too because even +1 speed at least can be revenge killed. But nevertheless, it gets +3 to stats for free which is broken where +1 or even +2 may not be.
I don't see what's not viable about a rain HO that uses pokemon like starmie, kerudio to abuse surf/hydro pump, zapdos/magnezone to abuse thunder and steels like nattorei to take advantage of losing one of their weaknesses. You hit harder than the swift swim sweepers do and your speed is still some of the highest in the metagame, it's just not on a whole other level which makes it broken.
As far as "wasting a slot" for politoed, he really isn't as bad as you seem to think. Maybe you just have misconceptions because he was practically NU when he was outclassed by other bulky waters. His stats are decent and he has a good typing. He also provides offensive support for your team which is invaluable not to mention it also boosts his own respectable power. 90 Special attack isn't any worse than what ludicolo and kingdra have.
It's like asking a sand stall team why do you bother wasting a slot on tentacruel when you can have a pokemon with instant recovery that can stall way better or why do offensive teams bother with a suicide SR lead when you can have 1 additional powerful attacker. The answer is because it provides support to your team and sometimes giving 5 other pokemon an extra something is better than adding another good pokemon.
Alright ^^ seeing a bit more substance to your argument. I guess really what it comes down to is a matter of perspective. infinite turns of rain for swift swimmers is an issue on both sides... so its just a question similar to that of the chicken or the egg.
Both solve the problem surrounding swift swim. The real question is which has a better overall impact on the metagame, and are there any simultaneous problems we could take out with a single action.
Keeping drizzle means keeping sandstream and drought. You have to admit that once water swift swimmers are gone these will at least be somewhat an issue as they're an issue to many people even now while there is water all over. So this begs the question "do we do the same to these, as the pokemon become considerably faster as well." (even if I didn't ask it, plenty of ppl have.) And while they are both only +2 to relevant stats, the speed is what was brought into question by swift swim itself, as the +1 from water would not be taken out. Since you banned only the ability, chlorophyll and sand throw both fit into the category as abilities that do the exact same thing, on pokemon that have simaler if not higher base atk/satk than many swift swimmers (canceling out the +1 some as well).
Then we have to look at what isn't being taken out. Hydration definitely requires a look, at which point all similar abilities also require a look. Most of them don't add up, but the sun version would need to be banned if the water one was, so the only real answer there is to ban manaphy (a better suggestion anyway). Then there is the main issue that is going around. Without swift swim, kingdra will probably drop to BL usage, and all other swimmers will as well. Its just not worth it when you can run something just as bulky/fast, but with considerably more power and the ability to buff (cm suicune comes to mind). Sure, there will be 1 or 2 rain stall teams, but with manaphy gone and no swift swim, the rain will probably all be used barely at all.
This would probably cause a decay in weather useage back to an even lower number than before gen 5. Politoed would just be a liability on most teams, so not worth running when you can instead use normal stall methods that will more than likely work better anyway. Sandstorm will probably stay around, more as a byproduct of ttar than any other reason, just like gen 4...
really, i see banning swift swim as creating a meta more like gen 4 than banning drizzle. You mentioned that we were saying that we wanted to ban drizzle just because it's easy or to make gen 4 2.0, but it won't make it any less gen 4-like to ban all the abusers since that takes weather even more out of the picture than it was before.
Ironically we really have to ban auto-weather to keep weather around.
Also on the flip side, by banning drizzle, we also subjugate ss and drought to the same scrutiny, and solve all the problems without even having to remove a pokemon to uber (manaphy may be able to stay, who knows... lots of changes this gen). It also keeps the weather team idea around in better standing, and keeps a number of pokemon OU, which is the kind of thing that keeps a metagame healthy.
We all agree that drizzle and swift swim is broken. How we fix it will completely shape the metagame to come, so be careful.
Both solve the problem surrounding swift swim. The real question is which has a better overall impact on the metagame, and are there any simultaneous problems we could take out with a single action.
Keeping drizzle means keeping sandstream and drought. You have to admit that once water swift swimmers are gone these will at least be somewhat an issue as they're an issue to many people even now while there is water all over. So this begs the question "do we do the same to these, as the pokemon become considerably faster as well." (even if I didn't ask it, plenty of ppl have.) And while they are both only +2 to relevant stats, the speed is what was brought into question by swift swim itself, as the +1 from water would not be taken out. Since you banned only the ability, chlorophyll and sand throw both fit into the category as abilities that do the exact same thing, on pokemon that have simaler if not higher base atk/satk than many swift swimmers (canceling out the +1 some as well).
Then we have to look at what isn't being taken out. Hydration definitely requires a look, at which point all similar abilities also require a look. Most of them don't add up, but the sun version would need to be banned if the water one was, so the only real answer there is to ban manaphy (a better suggestion anyway). Then there is the main issue that is going around. Without swift swim, kingdra will probably drop to BL usage, and all other swimmers will as well. Its just not worth it when you can run something just as bulky/fast, but with considerably more power and the ability to buff (cm suicune comes to mind). Sure, there will be 1 or 2 rain stall teams, but with manaphy gone and no swift swim, the rain will probably all be used barely at all.
This would probably cause a decay in weather useage back to an even lower number than before gen 5. Politoed would just be a liability on most teams, so not worth running when you can instead use normal stall methods that will more than likely work better anyway. Sandstorm will probably stay around, more as a byproduct of ttar than any other reason, just like gen 4...
really, i see banning swift swim as creating a meta more like gen 4 than banning drizzle. You mentioned that we were saying that we wanted to ban drizzle just because it's easy or to make gen 4 2.0, but it won't make it any less gen 4-like to ban all the abusers since that takes weather even more out of the picture than it was before.
Ironically we really have to ban auto-weather to keep weather around.
Also on the flip side, by banning drizzle, we also subjugate ss and drought to the same scrutiny, and solve all the problems without even having to remove a pokemon to uber (manaphy may be able to stay, who knows... lots of changes this gen). It also keeps the weather team idea around in better standing, and keeps a number of pokemon OU, which is the kind of thing that keeps a metagame healthy.
We all agree that drizzle and swift swim is broken. How we fix it will completely shape the metagame to come, so be careful.
What I think:
Drizzle is not broken if Swift Swim and Hydration are taken out.
Swift Swim and Hydration are not broken if Drizzle is taken out.
Now, what's more of a hassle? Banning Drizzle on Politoed (one single ban on one single Pokémon), or banning Swift Swim + Hydration, which requires something like 10 bans on different Pokémon.
I'm for banning Drizzle, and for banning SandStream too. Drought and Snow Warning are just fine IMO.
Drizzle is not broken if Swift Swim and Hydration are taken out.
Swift Swim and Hydration are not broken if Drizzle is taken out.
Now, what's more of a hassle? Banning Drizzle on Politoed (one single ban on one single Pokémon), or banning Swift Swim + Hydration, which requires something like 10 bans on different Pokémon.
I'm for banning Drizzle, and for banning SandStream too. Drought and Snow Warning are just fine IMO.
the main problem with kingdra is the typing, there is hardly anything that can hit it for super effective, and manaphy should not have been put in gen V OU in the first place.
banning drizzle removes AN ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE, unless you remove ALL WEATHERS. from the game rather then just broken pokemon, i feel sandstorm is worse, Ttar can come in on practially any special attack (bar focus blast, on high spA pokes) and change the weather, meaning i have to stack more physical stuff, and hippo just roars any attempt to kill it away.
if you ban 1, the others become broken as they can just remove the weather and go away again. so ban all or nothing in terms of weather.
and tbh, sandstorms corner isn't helped by the stupid baloon allowing stuff like dory in.
banning drizzle removes AN ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE, unless you remove ALL WEATHERS. from the game rather then just broken pokemon, i feel sandstorm is worse, Ttar can come in on practially any special attack (bar focus blast, on high spA pokes) and change the weather, meaning i have to stack more physical stuff, and hippo just roars any attempt to kill it away.
if you ban 1, the others become broken as they can just remove the weather and go away again. so ban all or nothing in terms of weather.
and tbh, sandstorms corner isn't helped by the stupid baloon allowing stuff like dory in.
Taking out Swift Swim is not an option imo. I think that permanent rain on the other hand is. There is no 100% counter against a team with at least 2 Pokemon with over 550 speed without set-up. but if there is a possibility to just stall long enough for the rain to stop and take out the rain dancer, so that you win. You would have to run Nattorei to solidly counter it in permarain, while the naturally bulky water-type pokemon allow to survive its STAB moves anyway.
I think banning Drizzle is the obvious choice here, as well as banning Manaphy. Even without permanent rain Manaphy can stall for at least 8 turns while boosting and attacking. With CM even getting bulky enough to become a Blissey on steroids with the ability to heal yourself off.
Drought on the other hand doesn't seem broken now, because of Rain and Sandstorm being obviously used. Sun teams just aren't what rain teams are.
Hail is not broken at all, rather a gimmick. The main reason for people to use Snow Warning now is to not have either Rain or Sandstorm.
I think banning Drizzle is the obvious choice here, as well as banning Manaphy. Even without permanent rain Manaphy can stall for at least 8 turns while boosting and attacking. With CM even getting bulky enough to become a Blissey on steroids with the ability to heal yourself off.
Drought on the other hand doesn't seem broken now, because of Rain and Sandstorm being obviously used. Sun teams just aren't what rain teams are.
Hail is not broken at all, rather a gimmick. The main reason for people to use Snow Warning now is to not have either Rain or Sandstorm.
I've only played sand teams for a long time so there's never been a problem against rain, but in my opinion it's manaphy that makes weatherless unmanageable (unless you have a sunny day rotom-W or chansey). And that makes rain teams almost surely win if they win the weather war. And i'm talking about the CM set mainly.
After a CM, Manaphy isn't revenged by a Specs Latios draco meteor anymore, which would be a decent check. I didn't do calculations against birijion, but I suppose CMs help there too. Imo in that case the only way to get out alive is to have two base 101+ speed Pokémon left fire attacks that do more than 50% of HP to manaphy in order to bring it down.
Then again, i didn't play rain or a weatherless team for long (only a sand team) but other rain abusers seem manageable (kingdra, ludicolo), I'd like to see the tier without manaphy. It's true that manaphy is perfectly manageable without rain, and that some special weatherless teams can handle it in rain...
Anyway all four weathers are already viable (hail for sure, i don't know about sun), that makes 5 different weathers to play with if you count weatherless, I wouldn't want drizzle to be banned too hastily without giving it a chance.
On a side note, Deoxys-N was banned when it was virtually not used because of Deoxys-A being in the same tier at the time, so I'd rather have it be allowed in another suspect testing round.
After a CM, Manaphy isn't revenged by a Specs Latios draco meteor anymore, which would be a decent check. I didn't do calculations against birijion, but I suppose CMs help there too. Imo in that case the only way to get out alive is to have two base 101+ speed Pokémon left fire attacks that do more than 50% of HP to manaphy in order to bring it down.
Then again, i didn't play rain or a weatherless team for long (only a sand team) but other rain abusers seem manageable (kingdra, ludicolo), I'd like to see the tier without manaphy. It's true that manaphy is perfectly manageable without rain, and that some special weatherless teams can handle it in rain...
Anyway all four weathers are already viable (hail for sure, i don't know about sun), that makes 5 different weathers to play with if you count weatherless, I wouldn't want drizzle to be banned too hastily without giving it a chance.
On a side note, Deoxys-N was banned when it was virtually not used because of Deoxys-A being in the same tier at the time, so I'd rather have it be allowed in another suspect testing round.
I am thinking along the same lines that Coyo is.
If you play on the PO server then go over too the Smogon server their is a big difference in the potency of rain with or without Manaphy. I know most people here are under the impression that rain is flat out broken, but I implore you to atleast consider banning Manphy first so that we can test rain without its most broken member. If rain is still broken after that, then it is fine to ban it. On the other hand if we go ahead and ban rain first then I feel that will have never given rain a proper chance.
The Deoxys-N thing was another thing I was surprised about as well. Playing with it allowed on the PO server really makes it seem like it is not broken. I feel like we never really gave it a chance even though most voters had never seen it in action.
If you play on the PO server then go over too the Smogon server their is a big difference in the potency of rain with or without Manaphy. I know most people here are under the impression that rain is flat out broken, but I implore you to atleast consider banning Manphy first so that we can test rain without its most broken member. If rain is still broken after that, then it is fine to ban it. On the other hand if we go ahead and ban rain first then I feel that will have never given rain a proper chance.
The Deoxys-N thing was another thing I was surprised about as well. Playing with it allowed on the PO server really makes it seem like it is not broken. I feel like we never really gave it a chance even though most voters had never seen it in action.
I agree with the previous two posters. Manaphy is what makes rain broken. If we "quickban" Drizzle without testing it without Manaphy first we won't get to test what potentially is a non-broken ability. I also agree that the CM set it much harder to take out. Most of the sets I see are still TG, but when more people catch on to CM, we'll see how broken he really is. Kingdra, Kabutops, Toxicroak, and other rain abusers aren't that hard to take out imo.
I also disagreed with Deoxys-N being banned. We never tested it, and he was banned on the premis of "being too similar to Deoxys-A." True, he is very similar, but he doesn't have the same offensive power as the attack form. I think that he needs to be retested.
I also disagreed with Deoxys-N being banned. We never tested it, and he was banned on the premis of "being too similar to Deoxys-A." True, he is very similar, but he doesn't have the same offensive power as the attack form. I think that he needs to be retested.
I really can't understand the whole "if rain goes sandstorm will dominate!" argument or at least I can't see how that is automatically bad.
I mean, for rain, roughly all water pokes are potential problems, due to the second STAB on water attacks, which is augmented due to the insane number of swift swimmers, and a couple decent hydration (Manaphy and Vaporeon) and Rain Dish (Ludicolo) users. We are talking about 7 or 8 pokes with decent bulk and typing getting +2 on speed and +1 on your water STAB of choice. I believe I don't need to explain why rain is so good.
Now let's look at Sandstorm. Aside from Doryuzuu, no other poke gets any gamebreaking boost. Landlos receives only a x1.3 boost on QuakeEdge, comparable to the boost every single water poke gets on rain, but NOWHERE near as good as the boost swift swimmers get. If somehow Landlos proves to be too good to be true, it won't be solely or even mostly because of sand. It will be due to the decent defenses, 125 atk, trolly 101 stat, access to SD and RP and great typing. The extra boost will only be a factor, a cherry on top of the ice cream, just one of the many many reasons it is too good (like what happened, for instance, with Sand Veil Garchomp back at Gen 4). Same can be said about TTar (which likes the extra Spdef) and the sand veil users: it provides a nice boost, but not enough to reshape that poke from a standard/weak one to some sort of killing machine. If any of them proves to be uber, it WON'T be because of sandstorm, that is for sure, but because of their great stats.
Doryuzuu is a different case as its entire purporse is to abuse sand and it was made with all tools necessary to do so (great atk, good enough spe to outrun almost all scarf users, SD, great typing, access to balloon, etc). Since only it receives a actually meaningful bonus with the sandstorm, logic dictates that we take the least harmful option for the metagame and ban just a poke and not an entire playstyle (as, unlike rain, it isn't at all feasible to run a bunch of smooth stone sandstorm users for a rather small boost).
But the same can't be said about rain. The only reason otherwise half-decent pokes like Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Omastar, Poliwrath or Kabutops are used on OU teams is because of the +2 in speed AND the STAB boost they get under rain. Now that for sure makes a huge difference.
Thats is why drizzle is being considered a suspect. Not only because rain teams are strong, but because it makes them way better than they are supposed to and is the sole reason why any of the rain abusers can be considered "broken" (excluding maybe manaphy). Sand does not do the same to its "abusers". In fact, I can guarantee that, again aside from Doryuzuu, if any poke proves to be broken under the sand, chances are that they will be almost as good outside of it.
EDIT: Just to clarify a bit. I am not saying that Doryuzuu/Drizzle is broken and must be banned. I am just saying that (unlike sandstream) they deserve their suspect status.
I mean, for rain, roughly all water pokes are potential problems, due to the second STAB on water attacks, which is augmented due to the insane number of swift swimmers, and a couple decent hydration (Manaphy and Vaporeon) and Rain Dish (Ludicolo) users. We are talking about 7 or 8 pokes with decent bulk and typing getting +2 on speed and +1 on your water STAB of choice. I believe I don't need to explain why rain is so good.
Now let's look at Sandstorm. Aside from Doryuzuu, no other poke gets any gamebreaking boost. Landlos receives only a x1.3 boost on QuakeEdge, comparable to the boost every single water poke gets on rain, but NOWHERE near as good as the boost swift swimmers get. If somehow Landlos proves to be too good to be true, it won't be solely or even mostly because of sand. It will be due to the decent defenses, 125 atk, trolly 101 stat, access to SD and RP and great typing. The extra boost will only be a factor, a cherry on top of the ice cream, just one of the many many reasons it is too good (like what happened, for instance, with Sand Veil Garchomp back at Gen 4). Same can be said about TTar (which likes the extra Spdef) and the sand veil users: it provides a nice boost, but not enough to reshape that poke from a standard/weak one to some sort of killing machine. If any of them proves to be uber, it WON'T be because of sandstorm, that is for sure, but because of their great stats.
Doryuzuu is a different case as its entire purporse is to abuse sand and it was made with all tools necessary to do so (great atk, good enough spe to outrun almost all scarf users, SD, great typing, access to balloon, etc). Since only it receives a actually meaningful bonus with the sandstorm, logic dictates that we take the least harmful option for the metagame and ban just a poke and not an entire playstyle (as, unlike rain, it isn't at all feasible to run a bunch of smooth stone sandstorm users for a rather small boost).
But the same can't be said about rain. The only reason otherwise half-decent pokes like Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Omastar, Poliwrath or Kabutops are used on OU teams is because of the +2 in speed AND the STAB boost they get under rain. Now that for sure makes a huge difference.
Thats is why drizzle is being considered a suspect. Not only because rain teams are strong, but because it makes them way better than they are supposed to and is the sole reason why any of the rain abusers can be considered "broken" (excluding maybe manaphy). Sand does not do the same to its "abusers". In fact, I can guarantee that, again aside from Doryuzuu, if any poke proves to be broken under the sand, chances are that they will be almost as good outside of it.
EDIT: Just to clarify a bit. I am not saying that Doryuzuu/Drizzle is broken and must be banned. I am just saying that (unlike sandstream) they deserve their suspect status.
I completely and utterly disagree with the above 3 posters. Contrary to popular belief removing Manaphy will NOT balance rain in the slightest. You still need to deal with Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops. (The 3 best rain sweepers) Its that ridiculous 400+ speed and power that makes playing against rain impossible. In fact, Manaphy was one of the lesser threats on a rain team because it doesn't outspeed half of the metagame (rain rest sets are still pretty broken, but definitely not on par with the broken trio). I really think you guys are making a bad call here.
Also testing Deoxys-N is a complete and utter waste of time. There isn't really much of a difference between 150/150/150 and 180/180/150. In fact, that extra bulk on Deoxys-N was actually useful in absorbing really weak hits (non stabbed Ice-beams, priority attacks)
Also testing Deoxys-N is a complete and utter waste of time. There isn't really much of a difference between 150/150/150 and 180/180/150. In fact, that extra bulk on Deoxys-N was actually useful in absorbing really weak hits (non stabbed Ice-beams, priority attacks)
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