np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[voodoo pimp]

The metagame is centralised around these extremely good Pokemon who aren't on the banlist, because they are more or less self-contained, checking/countering each other. Everything else in OU is just Pokemon that serve slightly less used niches. If you ban even one out of the 30, one of the other 29 remaining will become broken, and if you ban that, something else becomes broken, and the cycle continues.

I really don't know where you're getting this idea from. Everything in OU has more than one check/counter (those that don't tend to become suspects - see Gen IV Garchomp). Banning something makes the things it beats relatively more powerful, certainly, but not necessarily broken. It's not some fragile ecosystem where removing a single piece makes the whole thing collapse.

 

[Moo]

Most of these long paragraphs are kinda pointless tbh =/
Everyone seems to take pride in writing quite an eyeful, just to get their when it doesnt matter.
Just get voting rights and let your vote speak for itself.
Yes, there is alot of broken things out there but even still, some people seem to keen to ban things :o

 

[Windsong]

because you think that deoxys-n is clearly uber doesn't mean that every other person here thinks the same...as you have already seen the smogon community is very divided about the tiering of deoxys-n...a lot of people,including me,think that the tiering of deoxys was very unreasoned 'cause of no actual playtesting with him with deoxys-a still unbanned...so if you want to prove and support an opinion of yours do it with actual arguments and not with useless posts...

Agreeing with this. While it could very easily turn out to be completely broken, it still deserves a playtest just as much as any of the other stuff which was clearly completely soon after Round 1 was, like Shaymin and Deo-A, but since it never actually got tested in an environment where there was any reason at all to use it (other than really random unimportant stuff, like living a random Roobushin's Mach Punch so LO kills you a bit later), which is primarily why many of the people who want it tested feel that it deserves a test.

 

[TLK]

Deoxys-N and Drought may be broken, and future testing will see that, but we get rid of (or nerf) the broken stuff first and then deal with them. Banning them based on "well, if we ban Deoxys-A pr if we ban Drizzle and Dory/Landlos, then Deoxys-N and Drought will be broken so let's ban them" is a terrible terrible way of looking at it.

 

[IcyMan28]

Some calcs against a pokemon with 404 HP / 236 Def, for comparison:

252 Naive LO Deoxys-N's Psychic vs. 252/0 Manaphy: (52.23% - 61.88%)
252 Jolly Garchomp's Outrage vs. 252/0 Mew: (48.51% - 57.43%)
252 Timid LO Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Jirachi: (52.23% - 61.88%)
252 Naive LO MixMence's Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Celebi: (65.35% - 77.23%)
252 Jolly Tyranitar's Stone Edge vs. 252/0 Shaymin: (40.35% - 47.77%)
252 Adamant Blaziken's LO HJK vs 252/0 Manaphy: (71.29% - 83.91%)
252 Timid Heatran's LO Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Mew: (63.12% - 74.50%)
252 Timid Gengar's LO Shadow Ball vs. 252/0 Jirachi: (42.33% - 50.00%)
252 Adamant Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252/0 Celebi: (46.04% - 54.21%)
252 Timid Sazandora's Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Shaymin: (54.95% - 64.85%)

So Deoxys-N, using its best move, has power comparable to LO Starmie's Hydro Pump, slightly weaker than ScarfSazandora's Draco Meteor, and significantly weaker than LO Heatran's Fire Blast or Blaziken's LO Hi Jump Kick.

What was that about 150/150 attacking stats being all that matter?

 

[SlimMan]

Deoxys-N and Drought may be broken, and future testing will see that, but we get rid of (or nerf) the broken stuff first and then deal with them. Banning them based on "well, if we ban Deoxys-A pr if we ban Drizzle and Dory/Landlos, then Deoxys-N and Drought will be broken so let's ban them" is a terrible terrible way of looking at it.

Agreed.

I've seen too way many nominations and arguments that say "X is broken, and when we ban it, Y will become broken. So let's just ban Y now."

That is an utterly disgusting way of looking at it. If people would ban what they think is broken, based on actually having experience with it, AND they would give solid, logical arguments for it, then this wouldn't be a problem. But as it stands, we have a problem.

What was that about 150/150 attacking stats being all that matter?

I know that it is an extreme example, but if stats were all that mattered, Slaking would be a monster.

Deo-N doesn't have a completely terrible ability, but the point is that you have to look at how a pokemon does in a meta, look at ALL of he factors (stats, ability, movepool, and most importantly environment) in order to call it broken. Since very few people ever saw Deo-N, I think it's safe to say that it was banned largely on theorymon.

Yes, so were Mewtwo and Kyogre. But they have excellent stats across the board. Deo-N has only 3 good stats, and 3 horrible stats. I think that fact, combined with his limited use last round, should give him a chance to prove his brokenness in another test. This time, without Deo-A overshadowing him.

 

[reachzero]

Agreed.

I've seen too way many nominations and arguments that say "X is broken, and when we ban it, Y will become broken. So let's just ban Y now."

That is an utterly disgusting way of looking at it. If people would ban what they think is broken, based on actually having experience with it, AND they would give solid, logical arguments for it, then this wouldn't be a problem. But as it stands, we have a problem.

I completely agree with this. I totally ignore all such nominations. Aspects of a metagame should be considered based on their merits in the actual testing metagame, not based on assumptions of how a future metagame will go.

 

[IcyMan28]

SlimMan, I was using those calcs to show that Deoxys-N's damage output is right at home with perfectly manageable OU threats, so we're on the same side. In relation to the rest of the metagame, I don't think Deoxys is so clearly broken that it can receive the quick boot, and we need to find what merits it has through testing.

 

[TLK]

Some calcs against a pokemon with 404 HP / 236 Def, for comparison:

252 Naive LO Deoxys-N's Psychic vs. 252/0 Manaphy: (52.23% - 61.88%)
252 Jolly Garchomp's Outrage vs. 252/0 Mew: (48.51% - 57.43%)
252 Timid LO Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Jirachi: (52.23% - 61.88%)
252 Naive LO MixMence's Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Celebi: (65.35% - 77.23%)
252 Jolly Tyranitar's Stone Edge vs. 252/0 Shaymin: (40.35% - 47.77%)
252 Adamant Blaziken's LO HJK vs 252/0 Manaphy: (71.29% - 83.91%)
252 Timid Heatran's LO Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Mew: (63.12% - 74.50%)
252 Timid Gengar's LO Shadow Ball vs. 252/0 Jirachi: (42.33% - 50.00%)
252 Adamant Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252/0 Celebi: (46.04% - 54.21%)
252 Timid Sazandora's Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Shaymin: (54.95% - 64.85%)

So Deoxys-N, using its best move, has power comparable to LO Starmie's Hydro Pump, slightly weaker than ScarfSazandora's Draco Meteor, and significantly weaker than LO Heatran's Fire Blast or Blaziken's LO Hi Jump Kick.

What was that about 150/150 attacking stats being all that matter?

Seems fair enough, really, although does Deoxys-N not get Psycho Boost? That's Deoxys-N's strongest attack, I thought, so in the end it will likely be a bit more powerful that Scarf Sazandora's DM (although it is a psychic type move).

At least it's not "well, hope you've got priority" bad that Deoxys-A was. 2HKO the metagame, YAY!

To be honest though, I'd be much more frightened of, say, a SD Blaziken with Shadow Claw than a Deoxys-N, but that's just me. Even if Deoxys-N is found to be broken, at least we'll have actually tested it and know for sure.

 

[SlimMan]

SlimMan, I was using those calcs to show that Deoxys-N's damage output is right at home with perfectly manageable OU threats, so we're on the same side. In relation to the rest of the metagame, I don't think Deoxys is so clearly broken that it can receive the quick boot, and we need to find what merits it has through testing.

Ah. I mis-interpreted your post. Sorry. Anyway, I think that Deo-N is broken.

Let's look at that. "I think that Deo-N is broken." So do a lot of other people. But thinking something and knowing something are entirely different things. Yes, I think so, but since I'm not sure, I cannot say that it is broken. People seem to overlook that so much, which is probably why Deo-N got banned in the first place.

 

[IcyMan28]

TLK: Deoxys-N does get Psycho Boost, but the power difference between itself and Deoxys-A makes it an inferior option, IMO. Deoxys-A was 2HKOing Scizor and the like when using the attack, which was simply absurd. Without that power, I'm not so certain that Deoxys-N should be using a Psychic-type move that halves its Special Attack and is resisted by many.

But then, that's exactly why it needs to be tested - we don't know if that makes all the difference.

 

[badabing]

I seem to be alone on my argument that Manaphy should be tested without Drizzle, so I'm posing it to the floor. Ok +3 Tail Glow more than compensates for that utter piss movepool, but it's still got some serious flaws. Without perma-Rain it loses recovery and Natt, the most common defensive poke in OU, walls it like nobody's business and bitch slaps it with a Power Whip. How is it going to take advantage of that bulk when it's vulnerable to status and being chipped away at? 100 base speed isn't what it used to be and any setup is a sitting duck for the fast hard-hitting physical threats of the new metagame. Can someone convince me this thing is uberific?

 

[IcyMan28]

I've been saying the same badabing.

People need to stop looking at the +3 and instead start looking at the resulting stat, which is similar to Garchomp and Doryuuzu's. Outside of Rain, both CM and TG Manaphy are decidedly less effective for obvious reasons, the former having to run Rain Dance itself and thus losing coverage while the latter becomes vulnerable to status (namely Toxic and Thunder Wave).

 

[SlimMan]

I've been saying the same badabing.

People need to stop looking at the +3 and instead start looking at the resulting stat, which is similar to Garchomp and Doryuuzu's. Outside of Rain, both CM and TG Manaphy are decidedly less effective for obvious reasons, the former having to run Rain Dance itself and thus losing coverage while the latter becomes vulnerable to status (namely Toxic and Thunder Wave).

Yes, I've also agreed with badabing. Manaphy is really only threatening because you cannot stall it out (immune to status) and you must be able to 1-2HKO to kill it (full reovery in a turn). Given its 100/100/100 defenses, that can be hard without any SE moves.

But without those benefits, I doubt Manaphy would even make OU. As I've said before, assumption=/=truth, but still.

Of course, it's quite likely Drizzle will be banned, and perhaps then Manaphy will not be banned. Or maybe we can nominate it back down on the next round of testing.

 

[Windsong]

Yes, I've also agreed with badabing. Manaphy is really only threatening because you cannot stall it out (immune to status) and you must be able to 1-2HKO to kill it (full reovery in a turn). Given its 100/100/100 defenses, that can be hard without any SE moves.

But without those benefits, I doubt Manaphy would even make OU. As I've said before, assumption=/=truth, but still.

Of course, it's quite likely Drizzle will be banned, and perhaps then Manaphy will not be banned. Or maybe we can nominate it back down on the next round of testing.

OF course, there's the secondary (and probably on of the more effective) options, Aldaron's proposal on the banning of swift swim + drizzle on the same team. I personally actually find this to be a highly effective idea, though I was originally not all that supportive of it, as it allows us to test Manaphy in a metagame that isn't overly rain centric, thus coming to the best conclusion about what course of action should be taken regarding its ban.

 

[Z-rex]

I can't believe i'm reading nominations like rankurusu ..people wanna ban the only thing trick room got this gen... , because of that guy TR becames more of viable strategy ... and it adds diversity to the metagame ...

essentially it's ... "i'm too lazy to change my team for that guy ..so let's bann it" ...

landlos/manaphy/doryuuzu/latios are far more broken .

 

[astrohawke]

Some calcs against a pokemon with 404 HP / 236 Def, for comparison:

252 Naive LO Deoxys-N's Psychic vs. 252/0 Manaphy: (52.23% - 61.88%)
252 Jolly Garchomp's Outrage vs. 252/0 Mew: (48.51% - 57.43%)
252 Timid LO Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Jirachi: (52.23% - 61.88%)
252 Naive LO MixMence's Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Celebi: (65.35% - 77.23%)
252 Jolly Tyranitar's Stone Edge vs. 252/0 Shaymin: (40.35% - 47.77%)
252 Adamant Blaziken's LO HJK vs 252/0 Manaphy: (71.29% - 83.91%)
252 Timid Heatran's LO Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Mew: (63.12% - 74.50%)
252 Timid Gengar's LO Shadow Ball vs. 252/0 Jirachi: (42.33% - 50.00%)
252 Adamant Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252/0 Celebi: (46.04% - 54.21%)
252 Timid Sazandora's Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Shaymin: (54.95% - 64.85%)

So Deoxys-N, using its best move, has power comparable to LO Starmie's Hydro Pump, slightly weaker than ScarfSazandora's Draco Meteor, and significantly weaker than LO Heatran's Fire Blast or Blaziken's LO Hi Jump Kick.

What was that about 150/150 attacking stats being all that matter?

Sorry but those calculations don't really show anything. In comparison, Deoxys-A does 60.9-71.5% to the same manaphy so you could still say that it's weaker than mence, heatran and blaziken.

I'm not against testing it but personally I believe it's broken. Using psychic it hits on par with some of the heaviest hitters in OU using high power moves that have drawbacks like lower accuracy or stuff like outrage/draco meteor. In addition it outspeeds everything not carrying a scarf which none of these pokemon can do. It also has a fantastic movepool with great coverage.

But here's the clincher: way better defenses compared to deoxys-A for a minor tradeoff in power. I haven't done a lot of calculations so I don't know if deoxys-A's additional power lets it OHKO or 2HKO some key threats that deoxys-N can't but what I do know is that deoxys-N is way less susceptible to priority. While deoxys-A was likely to be KOed by even mach punch, deoxys-N isn't OHKOed by anything short of CB technician bullet punch from scizor. If anything, I feel deoxys-N is probably better than deoxys-A in the current metagame because of this.

 

[SlimMan]

OF course, there's the secondary (and probably on of the more effective) options, Aldaron's proposal on the banning of swift swim + drizzle on the same team. I personally actually find this to be a highly effective idea, though I was originally not all that supportive of it, as it allows us to test Manaphy in a metagame that isn't overly rain centric, thus coming to the best conclusion about what course of action should be taken regarding its ban.

Wait, was this aimed at me? Because I never discredited that proposal. All I said was that Drizzle will prolly end up banned.

Sorry but those calculations don't really show anything. In comparison, Deoxys-A does 60.9-71.5% to the same manaphy so you could still say that it's weaker than mence, heatran and blaziken.

I'm not against testing it but personally I believe it's broken. Using psychic it hits on par with some of the heaviest hitters in OU using high power moves that have drawbacks like lower accuracy or stuff like outrage/draco meteor. In addition it outspeeds everything not carrying a scarf which none of these pokemon can do. It also has a fantastic movepool with great coverage.

But here's the clincher: way better defenses compared to deoxys-A for a minor tradeoff in power. I haven't done a lot of calculations so I don't know if deoxys-A's additional power lets it OHKO or 2HKO some key threats that deoxys-N can't but what I do know is that deoxys-N is way less susceptible to priority. While deoxys-A was likely to be KOed by even mach punch, deoxys-N isn't OHKOed by anything short of CB technician bullet punch from scizor. If anything, I feel deoxys-N is probably better than deoxys-A in the current metagame because of this.

If Deo-N with Psychic is on par with stuff like Sazandora with Draco Meteor, then you have to ask yourself if that Draco Meteor is over-powering. The speed is pretty big, but really if it is on par with the top threats of the meta power-wise, then why aren't they being called too strong? Really, all it has is speed, which is questionable enough of a bonus that it should be tested.

And although one counter =/= not broken, Hitmontop still revenges the hell out of Deo-N. And Doryuuzu. And Shell Breakers. And LO Blaziken.

 

[Windsong]

@Slim Man: It was aimed towards your post in question where you mention manaphy in rain, not due to anything you said regarding Aldaron's proposal, but because you seem to be of the opinion that Manaphy is easily headed for a ban. I don't disagree with you that Manaphy is a bit overpowered, but I simply think that we should probably test it a little bit in the metagame that Aldaron's proposal would bring about, where offensive Rain teams wouldn't be quite so centralizing.

 

[astrohawke]

If Deo-N with Psychic is on par with stuff like Sazandora with Draco Meteor, then you have to ask yourself if that Draco Meteor is over-powering. The speed is pretty big, but really if it is on par with the top threats of the meta power-wise, then why aren't they being called too strong? Really, all it has is speed, which is questionable enough of a bonus that it should be tested.

And although one counter =/= not broken, Hitmontop still revenges the hell out of Deo-N. And Doryuuzu. And Shell Breakers. And LO Blaziken.

Because these pokemon are using moves that have drawbacks in order to achieve the same level of power as something using psychic. And speed is probably the most important stat in the game. With 150 speed, the same as deoxys-A, you don't have to worry about anything outspeeding you except priority and scarfers which you can usually see from a mile away.

Also hitmontop isn't even a counter. It's a revenge killer. Scizor and spiritomb are probably its only counters.

People should also realize that the difference between 150 and 180 isn't very big when the numbers are already as big as they are. When all is said and done, it comes down to about a 15% increase in damage. But when numbers are small like 20 def vs 50 def, that comes to something like an 80% increase in defense. It's the same kind of situation with blissey. Putting more SDef EVs won't improve its SDef much but putting Def EVs improves its Def a lot.

 

[SlimMan]

@Slim Man: It was aimed towards your post in question where you mention manaphy in rain, not due to anything you said regarding Aldaron's proposal, but because you seem to be of the opinion that Manaphy is easily headed for a ban. I don't disagree with you that Manaphy is a bit overpowered, but I simply think that we should probably test it a little bit in the metagame that Aldaron's proposal would bring about, where offensive Rain teams wouldn't be quite so centralizing.

You're right that I do think Manaphy might be headed for a ban. However, if we do this the same as last round, the ability vote will come first. If Drizzle gets banned (and it looks like it will) then perhaps people will decide not to ban Manaphy.

Aldaron's proposal could test Manaphy without actually banning Drizzle. Although it does lack a simplicity factor, that would prove very useful for determining what is broken (Drizzle, Swift Swim, or abusers).

Because these pokemon are using moves that have drawbacks in order to achieve the same level of power as something using psychic. And speed is probably the most important stat in the game. With 150 speed, the same as deoxys-A, you don't have to worry about anything outspeeding you except priority and scarfers which you can usually see from a mile away.

Also hitmontop isn't even a counter. It's a revenge killer. Scizor and spiritomb are probably its only counters.

People should also realize that the difference between 150 and 180 isn't very big when the numbers are already as big as they are. When all is said and done, it comes down to about a 15% increase in damage. But when numbers are small like 20 def vs 50 def, that comes to something like an 80% increase in defense. It's the same kind of situation with blissey. Putting more SDef EVs won't improve its SDef much but putting Def EVs improves its Def a lot.

@ 1st paragraph:
The thing about Speed though is that while something with say, 394 Ak will always do x damage to y pokemon using z move, Speed is a very volatile (poor choice of words) stat. Between Sand Throw, Swift Swim, Choice Scarf, Thunder Wave, Stun Spore, etc., relative Speed can be changed drastically. I agree that Speed is a crucial stat, but I disagree that is the end-all be-all of stats. If it were, Deo-S would be banned and Roobushin would suck.

@ 2nd paragraph:
Hitmontop can only switch in on certain moves by Deo-N. Crobat could on,y switch in on certain moves by Skymin. Yes, it is not a counter. It is a check. But can we please not argue about semantics?And can we also avoid talking about the viability (or lack thereof) of Hitmontop? This is about Deo-N, let's keep it that way.

@ 3rd paragraph:
Basically, anything that it can't OHKO is a check to it. Because almost any decent power move (even things like Boil Over) can do massive damage. However, forget all of that for a moment. I'm not saying that Deo-N is OU material. But I am saying that the 15% drop in power (you said 15% right?) could possibly be just enough to make it not broken. I (and many others) simply don't know. What consequences are there if we test it and it ends up getting re-banned? What long-lasting effects would that have?

 

[astrohawke]

@ 1st paragraph:
The thing about Speed though is that while something with say, 394 Ak will always do x damage to y pokemon using z move, Speed is a very volatile (poor choice of words) stat. Between Sand Throw, Swift Swim, Choice Scarf, Thunder Wave, Stun Spore, etc., relative Speed can be changed drastically. I agree that Speed is a crucial stat, but I disagree that is the end-all be-all of stats. If it were, Deo-S would be banned and Roobushin would suck.

@ 2nd paragraph:
Hitmontop can only switch in on certain moves by Deo-N. Crobat could on,y switch in on certain moves by Skymin. Yes, it is not a counter. It is a check. But can we please not argue about semantics?And can we also avoid talking about the viability (or lack thereof) of Hitmontop? This is about Deo-N, let's keep it that way.

@ 3rd paragraph:
Basically, anything that it can't OHKO is a check to it. Because almost any decent power move (even things like Boil Over) can do massive damage. However, forget all of that for a moment. I'm not saying that Deo-N is OU material. But I am saying that the 15% drop in power (you said 15% right?) could possibly be just enough to make it not broken. I (and many others) simply don't know. What consequences are there if we test it and it ends up getting re-banned? What long-lasting effects would that have?

I never mentioned anything about the viability of hitmontop, just that it's not a counter. And if you read back, I said I wasn't against testing it but I'm showing why I think it's still just as broken as deoxys-A, perhaps even more so for OU.

The thing I want to know is, how many things can deoxys-A OHKO that deoxys-N can't. The power difference doesn't mean anything if OHKOs are still OHKOs and 2HKOs are still 2HKOs.

 

[Windsong]

Uh, there's actually a fair bit of stuff that Deo-N can't take on and win against that Deo-A beats. Credit to Blue Harvest on PO for this, but yeah, just as an example:

- It must run a Hasty or Naive nature to outrun Scarf Rotom and Jolly Gyarados (and scarf Shanderaa!). If it does this it will have less attack than Metagross, and much worse STAB. To look at it another way, Deoxy's Psychic is about 89% as powerful as Metagross's Meteor Mash assuming Deoxys is Timid.
- It can not 2HKO Prevo Stone Porygon 2 with Superpower. Porygon 2 can be as low as 75% and still avoid being 2HKOed.
- It can not 2HKO Deoxys Defense with Shadow Ball if it is Specially Defensive.
- Calm Prevo Stone Dusclops needs only 60 Special Defense EVs to guarantee survival against 2 LO Shadow Balls. It easily strikes back with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch. Night Shade 2HKOs as well after LO recoil.
- It can not 2HKO Calm Cresselia even if it runs no Special Defense EVs.
- Lucario and Scizor both survive some hits decently and can easily KO back.
- Metagross can hammer it with Bullet Punch and take any of its moves.
- Rotom can easily survive two of its hits with only about 60 Special Defense EVs. Only Psychic harms him.
- Spiritomb beats it, but Spiritomb sucks. Sableye also kills it, but it also sucks.
- Bronzong destroys it. Even with LO HP Fire.
- Defensive Jirachi laughs at all of his moves.
- If Genosekuto or Melotta allowed into OU they can take any hit decently. Without priority they could drop to a second hit though.
- Shuckle lol.
- Zuruzukin takes the hits ok, only disliking Superpower which it can survive two of if it runs HP EVs and intimidate (unless Deoxys runs a LOT of Attack EVs).
- Iwaparesu (Bug/Rock hermit crab) takes almost nothing from his attacks in a sandstorm assuming some defensive EVs.
- Prevo Stone Munchlax can just barely avoid a 2HKO from Superpower. Same with Snorlax.
- Forretress is 3HKOed by any non-HP Fire hit.
- Dragonite can take SOME abuse from Superpower or Shadow Ball and clip it with Extremespeed.
- It will never switch in safely, but Dugtrio permanently removes it with Sucker Punch.
- Flygon, Jirachi, Latias, Latios, Garchomp and Shaymin all beat it while holding a Scarf, and can switch in moderately safely on some on its moves.
- Wobuffet beats it, taking just 47.7% - 56.4% from Shadow Ball assuming it runs 252 sp def and 28 EVs.
- Drill mole is faster (in the sand), and can survive all of its moves except Superpower.
- CM Cobalon (Steel / Fighting legend) can survive two Superpowers and KO back. It admittedly is 2HKOed by LO Superpower + Psychic though.
- All Rain and sun sweepers are faster.
- Spartan bug takes minimal damage from any attack and easily KOs back. Avoid HP Fire I guess.

While a fair amount of that stuff can be ignored when comparing the two, such as a couple of scarfers being able to beat it which was pretty much true for Deo-A too, a good amount of it also cannot be beaten by Deo-N while it suffers a bit from Deo-A, such as Pre-Evo Stone Dusclops and Rotom-W.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I'm torn between Deoxys Normal being Uber or not. While it might deserve a retrial, I can still see it likely being Uber. If Drizzle is banned (quite likely it looks like) that elimates Swift Swimmers from the equation and leaves just Sun, Scarf, and priority. Most priority won't ohko (Scizor Choice Band Bullet Punch and Choice Band Azumarill Aqua Jet after Life Orb recoil will). It can be used in a manner similar to a weaker Deoxys-A although I think "gimmicker" sets need to be worried about as well. I actually think it shouldn't be used as a Mini-Deoxys-A.

Example with 301 hp and 150 Def, after Iron Defense or Reflect, a Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch will not 2 hit ko (lol, weird set but ironically entertaining). It can potentially pull off a Calm Mind set (4 move slot syndrome alert) since it isn't going to priority and with Calm Mind/Recover could set up on weak attacks or just go Calm Mind offense since it's higher defenses allow it to pull that off where Deoxys-A couldn't. It can pull off Surprise Counter against priority users (Scizor want to Bullet Punch? That's a mistake! Scizor died!), Cosmic Power, set up Spikes, etc.

Deoxys variants have a lot of options and possible movesets so it is a mistake to imagine Deoxys in the same sweeper style as Deoxys-A (because obviously Deoxys-A was much better at straight out except the insta-death to priority almost). While it's defenses are still not exactly applause worthy for most Pokemon, on a poke as inherently strong and fast as Deoxys they are pretty large actually. Not dying instantly to Scizor and priority could be a major change in the game. And to assume that it's best set is Deoxys-A style could cost you since it can do so much more than that (Deoxys-A couldn't because it's defenses were so suckish and it's offenses so off the scale that it pretty much forced you to be offensive) with slightly more balance and 150 is still threatening enough to force switches and allow things like Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Iron Defense, Reflect, etc.

Calm Mind Life Orb for example breezes through non choice Scarf Rotom with Psychic.

 

[Arc Tech]

I'm torn between Deoxys Normal being Uber or not. While it might deserve a retrial, I can still see it likely being Uber. If Drizzle is banned (quite likely it looks like) that elimates Swift Swimmers from the equation and leaves just Sun, Scarf, and priority. Most priority won't ohko (Scizor Choice Band Bullet Punch and Choice Band Azumarill Aqua Jet after Life Orb recoil will). It can be used in a manner similar to a weaker Deoxys-A although I think "gimmicker" sets need to be worried about as well. I actually think it shouldn't be used as a Mini-Deoxys-A.

Example with 301 hp and 150 Def, after Iron Defense or Reflect, a Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch will not 2 hit ko (lol, weird set but ironically entertaining). It can potentially pull off a Calm Mind set (4 move slot syndrome alert) since it isn't going to priority and with Calm Mind/Recover could set up on weak attacks or just go Calm Mind offense since it's higher defenses allow it to pull that off where Deoxys-A couldn't. It can pull off Surprise Counter against priority users (Scizor want to Bullet Punch? That's a mistake! Scizor died!), Cosmic Power, set up Spikes, etc.

Deoxys variants have a lot of options and possible movesets so it is a mistake to imagine Deoxys in the same sweeper style as Deoxys-A (because obviously Deoxys-A was much better at straight out except the insta-death to priority almost). While it's defenses are still not exactly applause worthy for most Pokemon, on a poke as inherently strong and fast as Deoxys they are pretty large actually. Not dying instantly to Scizor and priority could be a major change in the game. And to assume that it's best set is Deoxys-A style could cost you since it can do so much more than that (Deoxys-A couldn't because it's defenses were so suckish and it's offenses so off the scale that it pretty much forced you to be offensive) with slightly more balance and 150 is still threatening enough to force switches and allow things like Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Iron Defense, Reflect, etc.

Calm Mind Life Orb for example breezes through non choice Scarf Rotom with Psychic.

I'm going to say that Deoxys-S is probably better at a cm or cheer up set due to its much higher defenses (cheer up is arguable). With higher base speed, it can invest much more in its defenses or offenses as well. The same applies to cosmic power (by far) and spiking.