I wouldn't really mind having more rounds, idk about you guys but i think it would really benefit us. I supported aldaron's proposal though, but their pretty much the same thing other than his would take longer
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I wouldn't really mind having more rounds, idk about you guys but i think it would really benefit us. I supported aldaron's proposal though, but their pretty much the same thing other than his would take longer
But Jirachi requires far more luck, and a 30% chance to instantly take down a poke is far too high to handle.
You made it sound like this would be a problem even if it was a 0.5% chance since the way you worded it comes off like "if it's possible, don't have it".
It is a significant enough possibility that one or more of my pokes could be taken out by a scarf Sheer Cold Smeargle or Cuno, and that is unacceptable
If you are laddering, then this possibility is almost irrelevant. 70% of the time they will do absolutely nothing, having given you a free turn. On the off chance that they manage to OHKO one of your pokemon, then good for them. The fact that they're relying on the move to begin with probably means that they aren't very good players and you should be able to defeat them otherwise.
But why run the risk? I don't see any benefit in ever having something like that in the meta. That's just unbanning something for the sake of unbanning it
Thanks for explaining my proposal clearly, Windsong! I believe lot of the post replies that I receive on the proposal thread reflect my ineffective job at conveying my reasoning...
However, I hesitate to completely agree with everything you have said, because Aldaron's proposal is not necessarily a required step that we need to take. As my OP shows, it is one of the 3 options that could be taken after Perma-Rain fails Phase 2. Whether we decide to have an additional testing phase implementing Aldaron's proposal or merely reverting to the Ability ban or Politoed ban will be up to us (particularly the Suspect Voters) when the time comes. Yes, my proposal would take longer, but only by an additional round of suspect test to accomplish its objective.
Regardless, we cannot justify banning Drizzle / Politoed until Perma-Rain fail in either Phase 1 or Phase 2. That's the main point of the proposal.
It is, for all intensive purposes, a pointless ban. We want as FEW bans as possible, not as many; I have never even heard anyone mention an "unnecessary unbanning" lol.
People will try it at first, find that their results are not consistent (or that they consistently end up at the bottom of the ladder), and stop using it.
People will try it at first, find that their results are not consistent (or that they consistently end up at the bottom of the ladder), and stop using it.
I don't think we necessarily want to have as few bans as possible, i think we should ban whatever it takes to have a desirable/fun/ideal metagame. Although i agree that if someone ran a ohko move, they probably suck end of story.
I added that in not only because I think people are ban-happy as of late, but also because we can still have a desirable/fun/ideal metagame (subjective terms as they may be) without having the pointless bans on evasion and OHKO moves.
Yeah, let's allow a strategy that encourages noobiness and luck. It has been banned for generations, there is no reason to unban it
i prefer Aldaron's proposal to Pockets, if i understand right, then in aldarons we could still use Swift Swim and lucilolo and those guys just that we cant have drizzle onb the same team as them, id rather have that than have a chance taht Swift swim or those 3 guys could be banned forever with Pockets proposal... screw that.
I disagree with the OHKO moves are noobish sentiment. If used correctly, they can eliminate key checks that would otherwise wall pokemon. For instance, if Doryuuzu ran Horn Drill, he would be able to eliminate any of his checks bar skarmory on the switch in. And before you say 30% chance, remember he moves before anything except priority. The chance of 2 consecutive OHKO moves missing is only 49%. The fact he can get around his defensive counters >50% of the time makes him like another certain Uber I can think of... and offensive counters (mach punches) get a 30% chance on the switch in, and he would have to switch out anyway.
Just spamming them is nooby. However, they do have their uses in clearing out key pokemon which would never be taken down otherwise.
But they introduce far too much luck, and should be banned for that- as well as being more effective then people really give them credit for.
Just spamming them is nooby. However, they do have their uses in clearing out key pokemon which would never be taken down otherwise.
But they introduce far too much luck, and should be banned for that- as well as being more effective then people really give them credit for.
But to be honest, I do prefer Aldaron's proposal to Pocket's, as pocket's advocates first banning the abusers, which eliminates playstyles, which I would hope to avoid
This philosophy is just plain wrong.
For one, the strategy does not "encourage noobiness and luck." If anything, it punishes it, as players relying on these strategies will find themselves sorely disappointed. You find people complaining about Hydro Pump and Stone Edge missing, then expect them to flock to 30% accurate moves limited to otherwise barely viable to downright unviable users? Let's be real, now.
And if you think something should be eternally banned, you are in the wrong place. Celebi was banned in Gen 2, I believe. Does that mean you would support its banning today and would have supported its continued banning in Generations 3 and 4? What about Latias, who has become significantly more manageable as the generations progressed (and as of now, I don't find it broken at all). It's this kind of thinking that distinguishes those stuck in the past from those willing to at least try to embrace a new metagame.
ArcTech, remember that in this particular situation (Doryuuzu), it is giving up Brick Break for other Dory, X-Scissor for the bulky grass-types, and Return for Gliscor or other miscellaneous checks. Horn Drill has done nothing more than serve as an alternative list for counters to Dory (one that is in place only 50% of the time at that).
I highly suggest rereading Pocket's proposal, as you don't seem to understand that its intent isn't to immediately ban Drizzle and all Swift Swimmers, but ban different aspects of Rain, then unban them and ban different aspects of rain, first banning swift swim, then unbanning the ability but banning the main abusers of it, then either banning Drizzle and unbanning the Drizzle abusers, ban ability combinations (such as Drizzle and Swift Swim) on the same team (basically Aldaron's proposal), or outright ban Politoed. Eventually this would hopefully lead to finding the most desirable and balanced metagame.
Pockets proposal is superior.
Everythings supposed to be tested. It's figuring out what is the problem, and then acting accordingly.
I'd prefer it extended to more then just weather but any field effect where the conditions apply trick room, magic room, wonder room, etc if they are ever in the future (likely not this generation, but who knows what a move tutor could cause) found problematic.
So you don't want to deal with it...big deal. The viable users of OHKO moves are few and far between regardless, and give up a slot that could arguably be given to a coverage move or otherwise. Your time is not being wasted by anyone other than yourself, as you aren't really presenting any serious arguments other than "they irritate me" for me to counter.
who are you to decide anything. to be honest everything you write is pretty goddamn stupid.
although sheer cold mind reader articuno would be p sweet
I'm not deciding it, I'm just saying there is no way people will unban them, they bring nothing to the meta and take so much away (potentially)
masterful just thinks he's the all knowing god of pokemon and what he says is right. Only really bad players use evasion items so they shouldn't be banned. Only really bad players use OHKO moves so they should be banned. Makes sense. If it irritates masterful it must be banned. If masterful can deal with it, then it's probably not worth banning. That should be how we decide our metagame.
you both have far too much faith in people
You whatl happen?, this, in the first phase without swift swim people will go like "yeah, this is fun were not getting overwhelmed by these swift swim guys in perma rain anymore, lets just keep it like this and screw all the other phases in the proposal", and that will be that. You really think that if things are fun after the first phase people would want to put through 2 more months of testing?, of course not, people will say its a waste of time.
Id rather just start out with Aldaron's proposal, Swift Swim and Drizzle will be unable to be combined and then you what will happen?, people will say "cool this is fun, im not getting overwhelmed by these swift swimmers in permanent rain anymore, awesome", and taht will be that. Issue will be over and nothing will be banned.
Aldarons proposal appeals to me more because in the end Swift Swim will still be allowed use with a regular old Rain dance team, on the other hand on pockets that will probably be unavailable for the rest of gen 5, why?, because people will not want to go through 2 more phases if the first one turns out to make things fun.
thats why i view Aldaron's as superior and completely and utterly condemn pockets proposal, screw that. People will not wont to bare 2 more months of testing and then a rain dance team with swift swim (that does not use Drizzle) will be gone forever
Brightpowder's boost is so nominal and outclassed by every other item there is little reason to use them, even if you are a noob. They have an extremely low chance of creating an unfair situation in which a better team will be swept by a worse one. OHKO moves have a significant potential to at least take out one poke with no prediction or skill involved. Things like confuse ray and attract apply only for a few turns, dissipate with switching out, and also have little to no chance of creating an unfair sweep. There you go. I have offered numerous logical points. Now please refute them logically, and not in a way that only answers one point yet supports another of my own points. I would gladly welcome any logical debate, so I invite you all to see if you can truly refute what I am arguing.
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