I hope it doesn't, i like the surprise factor when i use it since nobody really packs a true counter to it. TR ranks is good against pretty much all teams except stall. It doesn't neccesarily have to be playing against HO to be viable.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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This is the last post in which I'll respond to our Dragonite debate as we have gone very much off topic.
1. ok first off let me say that with CBnite you pretty much know what your expecting if you switch in your Deoxys-s. So let me ask again why would you switch your Deoxys-s in if you know it's locked into Extremespeed and will therefore Severely cripple your Deoxys before it can attack.
2. If you roost on the switch to get back to 100% you could Dragon Dance while CB Stone Edge is doing 66.1% - 78.0% outspeed on the next turn and do and ohko that very same Terakion next turn as +1 Earthquake is doing 106.5% - 125.7%. After it kos said Terakion it can roost again to get to an acceptable amount and continue to set up. What was that about having a low damage output again?
You keep on trying to compare Salamence's PhysicalDD to Dragonite's BulkyDD but they dont compare because of the reasons you keep on stating. Dragonite requires more turns of set up true and Salamence is faster also true however Dragonite is far bulkier than Salamence so it's actually capable of setting up for more turns than Salamence because it's actually not as easily revenge killed because of that bulk. True Salamence forces switches by Intimidate and therefore can get off a +1 easily but it's much easier to revenge kill with priority than dragonite is because things that switch in will be at full strength and then you'll wish you had Dragonite's Multiscale. (Assuming Stealth Rock isn't up which it shouldn't be if you have the right support for either Salamence or Dragonite. If stealth Rock is up Dragonite will be roosting on the first turn to get back up to 100% anyway which means that it can set up on the next turn without having to worry about dying unlike Salamence.)
3. I've had far more expirience with BulkyDDnite than you have. You've only had a few days of expirience and you think that's enough but it's really not. I know of it's strengths and weaknesses and I can say without a doubt in my mind that Dragoite's BulkyDD set and Salamence's PhysicalDD set are not the same. You can keep on huffing and puffing about it but your not gonna change my mind about this. Especially considering what limited experience you've had with it.
Once again we've gotten to far off topic as this thread isn't about Salamence vs Dragonite and Deoxys-S vs Dragonite. This thread is about Suspects. I'm not responding to anymore of your posts discussing this matter. Plus I'm bored of going back and forth with the exact same arguments on both parts.
1)You don't switch Deo in on DNite locked into ES. That's the point. IF Dnite uses any of his other moves, and Sandstorm or Stealth Rocks is up, then Deo can revenge it. That's my point. That's just a fact. The fact that you won't normally blindly spam ES means Deo-S will beat you the majority of the time. There we go.
2)Beating Terakion requires that you don't switch in on any attack which does at least 25%, which is a great deal of attacks when running only some defensive EVs. It can't Roost after KOinng Terakion because a new poke comes in that can just continue to attack you while you Roost. You get 1 turn of set up when using either Bulky DDNite or Mence, and Mence does far more damage and has only marginally lower defenses. Please actually look at Mence's and Dragonite's defensive stats, they are near identical. But mence is far faster, can abuse Intimidate, has a reliable way to take out Ferrothorn without any additional recoil, and has higher offensive stats. IT IS BETTER.
3)If I can't change your mind then that's not by merit of your experience. It is because you would not be listening to the clear, unrefuted points I have continually made and choosing to retain your opinion even when it has been assaulted with a great deal of evidence. Your greater experience odes not alter facts. As DDNite or DDMence, you will only get 1 turn of DD, as i have proven. Mence has a higher damage output, can force out physical attackers with its Intimidate, and is far faster, as well as able to beat Nattorei without any added recoil.
Back on topic, I don't find that any particular Deo-S set is particularly broken outside of its access to fast Screens which aid in Shell Smash BP and other set-up teams, which are immensely powerful. At the same time, I see very few things that are commonly used that outspeed Azelf that would not outspeed Deo-S as well, outside of ScarfChomp, Scarf Rotom-W, or Scarfed Magnezone, allowing Azelf to frequently set up screens just as well as its faster counterpart, despite the loss of speed.
I only respond to the 3rd post because you pressed a really bad button.
@#3 Hypocrite! You say I've provided no evidence in my arguments but you yourself provide no evidence. Only statements and negativity. (The button you've pressed is the fact that I hate Hypocrisy with a passion) What warstories or numbers have you given to support your argument? None. The only thing you do is give these situations That anyone with a brain can get themselves out of and continued to refute Salamnece's strong points vs Dragonite like Dragonite is a backwater pokemon that doesnt deserve anyone's attention. I also dont need to give evidence in the matter as all I am doing is refuting your so called evidence with a logical answer.
All your doing in this Salamence vs Dragonite argument is continuing to look at their respective dd sets like their one in the same. They are not the same. Dragonite's BulkyDD set allows it to get more DDs than mence can which counts considering its easier to get to +2. It also has more staying power than Salamence's PhysicalDD set because it's bulk lets it stay in on more things. Multiscale just lets it survive even more. Granted Stealth Rock ruins Multiscale but is Stealth Rock gonna be up 100% of the time and during these times Dragonite can come in and set up with impunity as nothing short of Specs Latios DM can ohko. It can also use this ability multiple times unlike Salamence's Intimidate. With roost and lefties Dragonite can continue to abuse its bulk as many times as it needs to in order to get off a sweep. You also keep on stating that you can so accurately predict Dragonite's roost send in stuff that'll take it down on the get go. First off anything can be predicted and responded to. Secondly what if I had predicted your switched and switched myself. If I had gotten the roost off then I would switch out with 100% and come back in later possibly with Stealth Rock removed. Sure my sweep would be stopped but the only thing I really did was roost while you switched in your check/counter then I switched to my response so now your in a bad situation. That's just one situation. You keep on stating all this stuff that's gonna put dragonite in a bad situation. Things are not so linear that this is always how its gonna go down. If you used Dragonite a little more mabye you would've seen the ways around your examples.
tl;dr: You continue to refute these points about Salamence vs Dragonite like Salamence has absolutely everything over Dragonite. However, you have very little expirience with Dragonite to give a solid presentation of your so called evidence. Come back to me when you can give some sorta post that's not completely repetitive and Hypocritical because until then I'm DONE talking to you.
On Topic: I'll have to agree on Deoxys-S. they just dont seem all that broken to me. I usually see them as a lead in which case I get off Thundurous' Prankster (Mischevious Heart's English name) Taunt. Which usually leads to them Getting off their Ice Beam instead which makes it easy to revenge kill them handily. I say keep it. It's rather Underwhelming.
Drizzle seems as strong as ever while playing a very different tune. While not as fast as it once was it doesnt stop powerful sweepers like Tornadus and Starmie from wrecking my team 6 ways to sunday. Nattorei is still a beast in rain setting up easily while staying alive through all I could hope to beat it with normally. Sun and Sand may be faster but the sheer scope of powerful sweepers in their respective weather is much higher in Rain than in Sun and sand combined.
another major threat that i haven't seen anyone talking about is arcanine in the sun!
an adamant arcanine with 252/252 hp and attack holding life orb with a moveset of flare blitz,extremespeed,close combat and morning sun works amazing.
the ability that i prefer is flash fire 'cause it is very useful to have a fire absorber when you run a sun team and with the flash fire boost arcanine's flare blitz is only 3% weaker than that of an adamant darmanitan's flare blitz with life orb...!!!
arcanine can 2hko most bulky waters with sr(sry havent done calcs)that are his biggest counters...
he also threatens immediately all of the weather inducers 1hkoing easily tyranitar with cc,doing a lot of damage to politoed with cc(if it is offensive it loses over 50% of it's life meaning he can only switch in once),and 2hkoing the standart hippowdon after a flash fire boost 100% of the time without sr.
he also revenges many major threats that have been weakened and usually give trouble to sun teams like blaziken and volcarona.
blaziken takes 49%-58% from espeed and volcarona takes 50%-59%from the same attack,a sure ohko after sr!
all in all he hits like a truck,he can receover at will 66% of its health(in sun) while being somewhat bulky,has only 2 weaknesses(in sun) and 5 resistances/immunities and finally he has priority and a very useful ability for sun teams...!
the only downfalls that he has are sr and flare blitz's recoil along with life orb cutting very fast it's health down and becuase of the lack of speed investement he cannot find an oportunity to heal off the damage and dies after launching a final espeed...and of course another downfall is that he shares weaknesses with ninetales so you should take this in account when building a team...
a very good partner is a bulky water that can pass large wishes,especially mamanbou who can tank very well ground and rock moves due to excellent physical bulk and can also check major sand threats like doryuuzu,terakion and landlos.
an adamant arcanine with 252/252 hp and attack holding life orb with a moveset of flare blitz,extremespeed,close combat and morning sun works amazing.
the ability that i prefer is flash fire 'cause it is very useful to have a fire absorber when you run a sun team and with the flash fire boost arcanine's flare blitz is only 3% weaker than that of an adamant darmanitan's flare blitz with life orb...!!!
arcanine can 2hko most bulky waters with sr(sry havent done calcs)that are his biggest counters...
he also threatens immediately all of the weather inducers 1hkoing easily tyranitar with cc,doing a lot of damage to politoed with cc(if it is offensive it loses over 50% of it's life meaning he can only switch in once),and 2hkoing the standart hippowdon after a flash fire boost 100% of the time without sr.
he also revenges many major threats that have been weakened and usually give trouble to sun teams like blaziken and volcarona.
blaziken takes 49%-58% from espeed and volcarona takes 50%-59%from the same attack,a sure ohko after sr!
all in all he hits like a truck,he can receover at will 66% of its health(in sun) while being somewhat bulky,has only 2 weaknesses(in sun) and 5 resistances/immunities and finally he has priority and a very useful ability for sun teams...!
the only downfalls that he has are sr and flare blitz's recoil along with life orb cutting very fast it's health down and becuase of the lack of speed investement he cannot find an oportunity to heal off the damage and dies after launching a final espeed...and of course another downfall is that he shares weaknesses with ninetales so you should take this in account when building a team...
a very good partner is a bulky water that can pass large wishes,especially mamanbou who can tank very well ground and rock moves due to excellent physical bulk and can also check major sand threats like doryuuzu,terakion and landlos.
Not necessarily.
There will frequently be a best Pokemon or strategy, but not always a broken Pokemon or strategy.
Well, you have to understand that the idea behind banning is to keep everything within a playable range that doesn't depend completely on luck (evasion, inconsistent etc.). Rain essentially means that certain Pokemon become fast well beyond the point of Ubers (Deoxys-S, the fastest Pokemon in the game, needs a Scarf to outspeed Kabutops). Without your own weather, the opponent essentially has the fastest pokemon in the game with a 1.5 boost on one of their STABs. Perfectly legitimate and good teams lose simply because they don't have one of the 4 other weather summoning Pokemon.
There will never be a best pokemon or strategy, i think what you meant to say was there will always be a most used pokemon or strategy.
Depends on how you define "best". There's certainly never a Pokemon that's the best in all circumstances, but in a sense, it's rare for there to ever not be a "best" of anything.
@the current discussion
Even then though. The most used pokemon or stategy doesn't have to be broken. Even if it is the best, if it has checks and counters like everything else in the metagame then its not broken. This is precisely why the slippery slope argument is flawed. Even though the best is the best, if its not broken then most if not all of the metagame, to a certain degree, would be balanced.
Even then though. The most used pokemon or stategy doesn't have to be broken. Even if it is the best, if it has checks and counters like everything else in the metagame then its not broken. This is precisely why the slippery slope argument is flawed. Even though the best is the best, if its not broken then most if not all of the metagame, to a certain degree, would be balanced.
1)I showed you a clear representation of how a normal Bulky DDNite sweep goes, one that you did not refute, and showed that no matter the situation, you will get in just one DD. Mence could also get 1 DD up by switching in on a physcial hit weakened by Intimidate (or could use Moxie, if it's released). This would leave it at albeit likely lower health, but with far better offenses, as he can pack higher investment and doesn't need to run Dragon Claw+Fire Punch like DNite does.
2)If you manage to get a completely free switch, after a down, and there are no SR up, yes, you will be able to get likely two DDs up, yet your power will still be less than Mence, as you need to run Fire Punch + Dragon Claw to have any hope of somewhat consistently sweeping.
3)There is little prediction involved here. You need to Roost before you DD, or there's no point in using Bulky Dnite. Then, an opponent comes in and attacks you. Whether you Roost or not, you will be left below 100% and easily revenged, as at under 100% your defenses are nearly identical to Mence's.
4)Saying I must provide evidence (which I have, by the way), while you do not is the very definition of hypocrisy. Here, read this.
5)I have played Dragonite long enough to see his sweeping potential is too low and his bulk takes too much time to actually take advantage of that I see no reason to use him for either a DD or bulky set-up set, as there are pokes that simply do it better (read: Salamence and Roob/Reuniclus, etc.)
Can you two take it to PM seeing as how you're the only ones that care -_-
Also lol at "you want to severely cripple your one Poke to take down another" uh...each person has 6 Pokemon, why the fuck wouldn't you nearly let one Poke die to kill another...the object of the fucking game is to kill all of theirs before they kill all of yours...
Also lol at "you want to severely cripple your one Poke to take down another" uh...each person has 6 Pokemon, why the fuck wouldn't you nearly let one Poke die to kill another...the object of the fucking game is to kill all of theirs before they kill all of yours...
Yeah, this isn't a "debate" where you humiliate the opponent's argument with appeals to emotion.
I'm starting to notice that the metagame (at least the one I've been playing) is becoming a bit more vulnerable to Rock Polish Landorus. I used to hate this thing for not having the power or the setup opportunity, but with a little bit of prediction it seems he can get that Rock Polish up ftw. I've also been debating Choice Band Scizor vs bulky SD Scizor (I use both in different teams), and I gotta say, Choice Band Scizor is still pretty good. True, the "scouting" aspect of it is kind of gone, but it still chips things and revenge kills things. I'm not entirely sure of the comparison between the two sets, though.
I'm starting to notice that the metagame (at least the one I've been playing) is becoming a bit more vulnerable to Rock Polish Landorus. I used to hate this thing for not having the power or the setup opportunity, but with a little bit of prediction it seems he can get that Rock Polish up ftw. I've also been debating Choice Band Scizor vs bulky SD Scizor (I use both in different teams), and I gotta say, Choice Band Scizor is still pretty good. True, the "scouting" aspect of it is kind of gone, but it still chips things and revenge kills things. I'm not entirely sure of the comparison between the two sets, though.
It's probably just me, but I'm a good deal more Azumarill running around. I personalyl use him on my rain team just because he is better at revenging threats like Landorosu and even Thundurus (after some LO and SR damage) than Breloom.
Rock Polish Landorus is still a big threat, but I personally don't find it as bad as the other ridiculous sets he can run. Bulk Up and Sword's Dance are the two scariest ones if you ask me. I still think the pokemon is a tad ridiculous in the sand, but somewhat manageable.
I would have to disagree with you there. Landorosu is just too slow (sweeper-wise) to set up SD or Bulk Up. With BU, until you set up 6 times you will still be weak to physical ice attacks, and with either set, anything with a fast Ice move can easily revenge you, including Thundurus, who is really common.
I don't know. SD Landorus carried me a long way through the first couple of weeks of the test, in a role where it didn't necessary try to sweep but it would wipe out a more defensive team if given the chance. The effectiveness and even role of both varieties varies a lot depending on the team.
Landlos is a beast. I've always said he's power may be over the top, even with the correction now. As I've said before, in the sand, Jolly Landlos hits even harder than Adamant Groudon. Basically, you have a stronger, faster RP Groudon with a Spikes/Toxic Spikes immunity and less bulk, but for a sweeper (With other bonuses like U-turn and HP Ice), the first three are usually more important.
SD Landorus is perfectly viable as a wallbreaker or a sweeper in its own right, especially when it comes to stall teams. It doesn't NEED to sweep, but if you can eliminate the 1-2 threats on the opposing team that outrun it, the opponent will have hell to pay.
On the note of Rock Polish sweepers, LO RP Terrakion is great currently. Opposing sand actually has considerable difficulty dealing with it should I nab that +2, and even still few things will like to come into CC when Stone Edge is waiting in the wings. It is somewhat underrated, but it shouldn't be at all IMO.
On the note of Rock Polish sweepers, LO RP Terrakion is great currently. Opposing sand actually has considerable difficulty dealing with it should I nab that +2, and even still few things will like to come into CC when Stone Edge is waiting in the wings. It is somewhat underrated, but it shouldn't be at all IMO.
@capefeather
I'll admit I lost my cool. I really hate hypocrites though.
@masterful
As I said I'm done with the discussion however, you seem to only respond to parts of my post and therefore your argument is a bit lacking.
@the current discussion
I've yet to use landourus myself but I don't really see your point in its case. I'll admit that its a viable sweeper but it seems rather easy to take down. Priority seems to take it down easily. Specifically Ice Shard. (I use Ice Shard donphan myself so I've never really had a problem with it lol.)
There also seems to be an uprise of Weather. When this new suspect metagame began they seemed to be getting less common but now I seem to be facing them every other battle. Is anyone else seeing this pattern?
I'll admit I lost my cool. I really hate hypocrites though.
@masterful
As I said I'm done with the discussion however, you seem to only respond to parts of my post and therefore your argument is a bit lacking.
@the current discussion
I've yet to use landourus myself but I don't really see your point in its case. I'll admit that its a viable sweeper but it seems rather easy to take down. Priority seems to take it down easily. Specifically Ice Shard. (I use Ice Shard donphan myself so I've never really had a problem with it lol.)
There also seems to be an uprise of Weather. When this new suspect metagame began they seemed to be getting less common but now I seem to be facing them every other battle. Is anyone else seeing this pattern?
Man, one of Wobbuffet or Blaziken needs to be banned. The two used in combo is just so good. Right now, I'm just using SD/HJK/Blaze Kick/Stone Edge Blaziken. What counters/checks that Blaziken reasonably well? Jillicent. Slowbro. MAYBE Latias, MAYBE Rankurusu. What are those Pokemon horribly weak to? You guessed it, Pursuit. But wait, Slowbro and Jillicent can get around Pursuit by not switching and using Boil Over or whatever to cripple your Tyranitar or Scizor and Rankurusu can just Focus Blast you, right? Here's where Wobbuffet comes in. Jiilicent can still get annoying with Taunt, but you can easily use Encore and just Tickle it to Pursuit-kill range, or just Mirror Coat it if it starts attacking you. Slowbro is even easier, since Wobb outspeeds him (I lol every time Wobb outspeeds something) and can just Encore whatever he used next, Tickle him and send in Tyranitar for the kill. Latias generally loses to Tyranitar full-stop unless you happen to use something random like CM-Charm or CM-Reflect like I do. When the counter is removed, just go LOLSWEEP with Blaziken.
P.S. Don't give me shit like "Ban Wobb+Blaziken as a combo", please.
P.S. Don't give me shit like "Ban Wobb+Blaziken as a combo", please.
That actually sounds like a pretty beastly combo. I'm relatively sure Wobb can take two Aqua Jets from Azumarill, even in the rain, so that rules it out as a counter as well. The only thing you need to watch out for is if the opponent has multiple pokes like Jelly and Reuniclus on their team, as you can't possibly take them all down.
I really hate discussing potential suspects in terms of "counters", and I posted quite a lengthy post about this very topic. Yet, I will agree that Azumarill cannot safely switch in on Blaziken if it chooses to use HJK.Yet it is most certainly capable of taking a Blaziken out guaranteed if it can get in against him
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