np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Nanoswine]

To be fair, we really haven't played a metagame with just sand and sun - Excadrill is far from broken so there would have been no need to ban sand and subsequently sun. People just automatically assumed this.

And if we are going to implement a Drizzle + pokemon ban, we sure as hell need to include Manaphy in that. Its these mini debates that make me think Drizzle should have been banned alone.

We have played a metagame with just Sand. Most of the battles at the top of the ladder were decided by a Doryuuzu speed tie. Admittedly, this was back when the metagame was still shaping up, but the point still stands.

Also, Sand nearly always beats Sun from my past experiences, largely because Ninetales can't switch in on any sand sweeper safely, and because it can't really do anything to harm Tyranitar.

And Unholy Confessions, I (and many others) have said it once and I'll say it again: Play the game, read Aldaron's proposal, and then come back here with your opinions on "banning Outrage + Garchomp."

 

[Unholy Confessions]

English names are already out, so I think people would prefer those to be said now.
SubSeed? Any Grass type? I hesitate to say Ferrothorn again.

These weren't broken Pokemon. It's merely that no Sand team wants to run a Grass type, so it was eventually decided broken because of this (as Cradily would've been a casualty).
Again, Gen 4 OU/UU had it way, way worse and those Pokemon weren't banned. The proposal is hypocritical and asinine, mostly. So no thanks.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Kabutops has MORE viable switch-ins. Ferrothorn being the best one.
And Ludicolo? What joke of a world is it that he's broken with ANYTHING? 70 Attack, 90 Special Attack... how can this be broken?

You don't seem to understand how much of a difference the rain makes.
Let me show you an example:

Here's Ludicolo using a LO Surf against Blissey in the rain: 23.95% - 28.29%
That's 279 Sp.Attack, assuming Timid and 252 Sp.A

Now, lets assume Chandelure knew Surf.
How much would Chandelure's Surf do to the same Blissey in the rain?
24.51% - 28.85%

That's 427 Sp.Attack. Assuming Modest and 252 Sp.A

Ludi's mediocre 90 Sp.Attack becomes comparable to Chandelure's 145 Sp.Attack when he uses a Water move.
How is that a joke exactly? Lets not forget Ludi also gets 2x Speed by just having Rain.
Imagine that, but 3 times on the same team.

Neither Sand or Sun is comparable because they either get 2x Speed, or a boosted STAB, therefore they at least need a turn of set up before sweeping.


Btw, Ferrothron gets 2HKO'd by Ludi's Focus Blast and Kabu's Low Kick.
Not to mention that Toxicroak OHKO's with Drain Punch anyway.

 

[Typhlosion]

I really can't believe this topic is coming up again. Hey Unholy Confessions, why don't you stop avoiding the question and finally answer whether or not you played in a rain-dominated metagame? I doubt you did, because if you did, you would have seen that more that half of all teams ran rain. That one of the scariest things in the game is Ludicolo in the rain. Seriously, don't talk the talk if you can't walk the walk.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

2HKO'd. Not OHKOed. Need them removed fast? Ferro's your guy. The Chandelure example was the worst possible one. Either way, it's still Blissey, which no rain special sweeper is breaking.

Banning Swift Swim just further completes that Sand will be dominant. Offensive Rain isn't even 50% as good as it was with SS legal.
@Typhlosion: Over 75% of teams in Gen 4 were Sand. Point? It was too dominant. Screwed all other weathers. So, should it have been banned?

 

[Athenodoros]

You really missed the point of the Blissey example. It was to show the power of the set, not how it fares against Blissey.

And it was not 75% of teams that had Sand in 4th gen. Nowhere near. And other weathers did not fare that badly. They generally did very well whenever people used them. I don't know why people didn't use them more.

But, yes, Sand does look like it will dominate, and that is a real shame. I thought it was going to happen from the beginning, and I am sad that it is happening now.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

2HKO'd. Not OHKOed. Need them removed fast? Ferro's your guy. The Chandelure example was the worst possible one. Either way, it's still Blissey, which no rain special sweeper is breaking.

Banning Swift Swim just further completes that Sand will be dominant. Offensive Rain isn't even 50% as good as it was with SS legal.
@Typhlosion: Over 75% of teams in Gen 4 were Sand. Point? It was too dominant. Screwed all other weathers. So, should it have been banned?

If he's 2HKO'd....he's not a counter.
Is that hard to understand?

How was the example bad when a pokemon with its mediocre 90 Sp.Attack suddenly starts hitting with 145 Sp.Attack? That was SURF. Ludicolo's used HYDRO PUMP, which would be even worse.

FYI, the top players actually used Sand.
Sand was actually keeping Rain from dominating absolutely everything and was the only thing that could give Rain teams any trouble. I should know, i used a Rain team myself.
It was a massacre in almost every battle. Seriously, only Sand teams, and the occasional Hail team gave me any trouble at all.

And if you haven't noticed, there aren't as many Sand teams anymore because Rain is no longer forcing people to use a Weather team.

Play the damn game.

 

[astrohawke]

Can you understand that the point of banning is not because it's too dominant but too powerful. Sand isn't banned despite dominating because it's not too powerful as a weather. Our goal isn't to ban stuff until hail becomes a viable weather.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

You don't seem to understand how much of a difference the rain makes.
Let me show you an example:

Here's Ludicolo using a LO Surf against Blissey in the rain: 23.95% - 28.29%
That's 279 Sp.Attack, assuming Timid and 252 Sp.A

Now, lets assume Chandelure knew Surf.
How much would Chandelure's Surf do to the same Blissey in the rain?
24.51% - 28.85%

That's 427 Sp.Attack. Assuming Modest and 252 Sp.A

Ludi's mediocre 90 Sp.Attack becomes comparable to Chandelure's 145 Sp.Attack when he uses a Water move.
How is that a joke exactly? Lets not forget Ludi also gets 2x Speed by just having Rain.
Imagine that, but 3 times on the same team.

That does not make Ludicolo special in any way.

There are 4 other swift swimmers who have that same special attack stat or higher and a 2x speed boost and access to surf, its not special. IOts not like if you get rid of Ludicolo you wont have to deal with that, golduck for example can do taht as well and is faster athn ludi (has higher special attack as well).


The problem with swift swim is that a lot of those guys, even if you get rid of Kingdra, Ludi, and Kabuto so that people cant just use Politoad + 3 swift swim guys then guess what?, people will STILL be able to just ahve politoad + 3 swift swim guys.

You know that 2 other swift swimmers have shell break of death right, that plus rain boosted stabs? come on!

 

[Athenodoros]

Yes, but Ludicolo was highlighted as a bad SS abuser. The example showed how powerful even he became.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

That does not make Ludicolo special in any way.

There are 4 other swift swimmers who have that same special attack stat or higher and a 2x speed boost and access to surf, its not special. IOts not like if you get rid of Ludicolo you wont have to deal with that, golduck can do taht as well and is faster.

You REALLY missed the point, didn't you?

 

[Unholy Confessions]

And it was not 75% of teams that had Sand in 4th gen.

You're right, more like 85%.

I don't know why people didn't use them more.

It had nothing to do with Sand, did it?!

If he's 2HKO'd....he's not a counter.
Is that hard to understand?

Why the HELL are you going to switch him into the FB/Low Kick? Switch it into the Waterfall/Stone Edge/Outrage/whatever it resists.

And if you haven't noticed, there aren't as many Sand teams anymore because Rain is no longer forcing people to use a Weather team.

Riiight. Sand wasn't overpowered in Gen 4 either, right? This reminds me of the PO conversation I saw with scrubs saying it wasn't broken but then listing everything that -was- broken with it.

Sand isn't banned despite dominating because it's not too powerful as a weather. Our goal isn't to ban stuff until hail becomes a viable weather.

No, the goal is apparently banning the useful aspects (aka banning the weather basically) of non-Sand weathers.

 

[masterful]

You're right, more like 85%.
It had nothing to do with Sand, did it?!

Why the HELL are you going to switch him into the FB/Low Kick? Switch it into the Waterfall/Stone Edge/Outrage/whatever it resists.

Riiight. Sand wasn't overpowered in Gen 4 either, right? This reminds me of the PO conversation I saw with scrubs saying it wasn't broken but then listing everything that -was- broken with it.

No, the goal is apparently banning the useful aspects (aka banning the weather basically) of non-Sand weathers.

It's easy to say a lot, but I have not seen you offer a single piece of evidence towards sand being broken. As of now I can only assume that you used and abused rain offense heavily and are now angry that your playstyle was neutered.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Why the HELL are you going to switch him into the FB/Low Kick? Switch it into the Waterfall/Stone Edge/Outrage/whatever it resists.

Riiight. Sand wasn't overpowered in Gen 4 either, right? This reminds me of the PO conversation I saw with scrubs saying it wasn't broken but then listing everything that -was- broken with it.

No, the goal is apparently banning the useful aspects (aka banning the weather basically) of non-Sand weathers.

Except....that makes him a check. Not a counter.
If you don't even know the definitions, you shouldn't even continue this stupid argument.

How was it broken in 4th Gen? There were no abusers like say Excadrill.
In 5th gen, we have 2 abusers, soon to be 3, but they're manageable right now(Maybe when Sandslash gets released...) as they can't just insta-sweep teams.

Landorus really hates not OHKOing everything and dislikes eating attacks which stack upon his LO recoil,shortening his life span, while Excadrill just cleans up after Landorus, but gets horribly defeated by a ton of common physical walls or just bulky mons in general.
Heck, Heracross can actually survive one of Excadrill's attacks and OHKO back with Close Combat.

 

[Athenodoros]

It was not 85%. Looking at Doug's last stats (yeah, they're from ages ago but the metagame has not shifted that much since), assuming Hippo and Tar where NEVER on a team together, Sand wasn't even on 25% of teams. Same with the current PO stats, which while different are again not that different.

And yes, Nattorei can force them to switch. But when it is 2HKOed, it only needs one good prediction for the only check to Rain you have come up with to be gone, and even without it it will soon be KOed by repeated poundings on the switch.

 

[Ace Emerald]

2HKO'd. Not OHKOed. Need them removed fast? Ferro's your guy. The Chandelure example was the worst possible one. Either way, it's still Blissey, which no rain special sweeper is breaking.

Banning Swift Swim just further completes that Sand will be dominant. Offensive Rain isn't even 50% as good as it was with SS legal.
@Typhlosion: Over 75% of teams in Gen 4 were Sand. Point? It was too dominant. Screwed all other weathers. So, should it have been banned?

The blissey example was to show how powerful ludicolo is in rain, not to suggest it can take blissey. And it's a good thing offensive rain isn't 50% as good, because it was really broken before. 75% of teams in gen 4 had tyranitar or hippowdon. Great. First, where's that data from. Second, they were both good pokes. I used t-tar on several teams. They weren't sand teams. I didn't care if my opponate set up weather. Both were and still are amazing. The reason sand wasn't banned was because it wasn't an overpowered strategy.
I'll probably be ninja'd several times, so I'll add some content to the thread.
I've found specs latios really underwhelming. Oh boy, I koed a switch in! I've gotta switch out now cause he sent in something that resists my coverage move. Yes, latios is back in! Now passive damage is building. I DM and something dies. Then I gotta switch out and give even more set up chances. Life orb as been working better though.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

You REALLY missed the point, didn't you?

No i get the point, 90 special attack is a freaking badass in rain, i get it, i was just pointimng out taht Ludi isnt the only swift swimmer who can do taht.

I do not want aldarons proposal to be changed, people are seriously naive if they think that only Ludi, Kingdra, and Kabutops would be a problem, yeah, they are the best of them, but still, even without them a team full of swift swimmers with boosted waterfalls, surfs and hydro pumps in permanent rain would still be beyond ridiculous, there are others.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

All I think about is that I have never had a problem with sand stream teams with the exception of preparing for fighting some steel type pokemon.

On the other hand, I know that when fighting rain teams in 4th gen, I had to pray to god I outlived 8 turns and prevented another rain dance from being set up so I could get my kills in (I didn't run weather, and my good friend played a rain dance team).

With the fifth generation hitting, I noticed nothing different about sand except for the fact that I require some form of priority for Excadrill, or some thing to counter him. But with Drizzle? I just know I had to jump through hoops the entire fight in fruitless efforts to try to survive long enough to at least get a burn off on ONE of the opposing swift swimmers.

Seriously, I can't understand it... its as if now that we have all discussed how broken drizzle was, and how we all fought different ways to preserve drizzle for the sake of the metagame yet balance out the broken aspects of it, many people come flying out of the wood work... Seriously... WHERE THE HECK WERE YOU BEFORE? In my opinion, you have no freaking right to talk, considering you missed the argument by about one month. Way to chip in while its this late.

Edit: Aldarons proposal was the best suggestion possible for the most simple solution and worked for (mostly) everyone. Just banning the top 3 SwSw'rs would just mean that pokemon like Quilfish and Golduck would come in and take the place of the original 3, and this clause presents major landslide bans. In addition to this, we actually have more Drizzle Stall teams, as well as various other Drizzle Offense teams that are with out SwSw. And they work fine. And they help the metagame with diversity as well as keeping sand and sun in check.

Personally, I think the people who are coming out of the woodworks now to bitch about this are one of two people... A) people upset that their precious swift swim teams have been cut down, and b) people who just hate rain, regardless of how the clause.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

How was it broken in 4th Gen? There were no abusers like say Excadrill.

It was too dominant and forced every other weather to sit out because of it. Sand is largely the reason why some Pokemon weren't able to sweep as well, due to some Pokemon becoming near 100% counters in it.

I used t-tar on several teams. They weren't sand teams. I didn't care if my opponate set up weather. Both were and still are amazing. The reason sand wasn't banned was because it wasn't an overpowered strategy.

"It uses sand! IT ISN'T A SAND TEAM! BUT IT USES SAND!" I hesitate to quote the first two offensive words of your post.

It's not broken. People are just QQing that Sand has a rival.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I've found specs latios really underwhelming. Oh boy, I koed a switch in! I've gotta switch out now cause he sent in something that resists my coverage move. Yes, latios is back in! Now passive damage is building. I DM and something dies. Then I gotta switch out and give even more set up chances. Life orb as been working better though.

Maybe it's just me that hates Latios then...I can wear him down, but the repeated DMs are just ridiculous at times.
Ok, he's gonna DM me...GO BRONZONG! BAM 40%!
He's ok, might as well set up Stealth Rock now.
*Latios comes in again*
Ok, GO BRONZONG! BAM 40% more! He's now at like 30% after Lefties...
Well, uhhh *BAM DEAD*

Ok, well I'm sure my Vaporeon can take the Draco Met - BAM 80%!!!
._.


Seriously...Latios annoys me so much.
The biggest problem for my team is that I can't risk my sweepers getting even slightly damaged because they're not exactly powerful after just a single boost.

Not saying Latios is broken, just saying I hate him.

I've been disappointed by Specs Latios since I tried Life Orb too, actually. You really notice the drop in power, but changing attacks is just too useful, and Recover is amazing. It means you can beat many of the switch-ins you would normally have.

Didn't want to double-post.
Anyway, I kinda like facing LO Latios...it gives me a breather instead of seeing LATIOS USED DRACO METEOR! every 10 seconds x_x

 

[Athenodoros]

I've been disappointed by Specs Latios since I tried Life Orb too, actually. You really notice the drop in power, but changing attacks is just too useful, and Recover is amazing. It means you can beat many of the switch-ins you would normally have.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

It was too dominant and forced every other weather to sit out because of it. Sand is largely the reason why some Pokemon weren't able to sweep as well, due to some Pokemon becoming near 100% counters in it.

"It uses sand! IT ISN'T A SAND TEAM! BUT IT USES SAND!" I hesitate to quote the first two offensive words of your post.

It's not broken. People are just QQing that Sand has a rival.

lol
Maybe because perma-weather didn't exist back then aside from Sand and Hail?
Now we have MH Pokemon that can instantly change the weather with Sunny Day or Rain Dance and some bulkier pokemon that can do the same then switch out and watch as your team dents everything in sight.
OR
You can use Drizzle with slightly less powerful pokemon, but with Perma-Rain :D

His team had Sand...he didn't abuse it though. So it's not a Sand team.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

It was too dominant and forced every other weather to sit out because of it. Sand is largely the reason why some Pokemon weren't able to sweep as well, due to some Pokemon becoming near 100% counters in it.

"It uses sand! IT ISN'T A SAND TEAM! BUT IT USES SAND!" I hesitate to quote the first two offensive words of your post.

It's not broken. People are just QQing that Sand has a rival.

Seriously? You think Sand teams JUST need to have sand on them to be considered a sand team?

No. Sure, you need sand to run a sand team, but you definitely don't need a sand team to run sand. I see MANY MANY teams where the opponent runs a Ttar and maybe a Skarm, and then 4 pokemon who don't resist sandstorm at all. Is that a sand team?

I have seen people use hippowdon specifically to stop the enemy Drizzle teams, and yet they had no other ground/steel/rock type pokemon. Is that a sand team? Or is sand merely present?

And as stated above, by Athenodoros post, only 25% of last gen had sandstreamers on their teams... 85% of teams with sand? It just seems more and more like you are heavily biased.

 

[Ace Emerald]

It was too dominant and forced every other weather to sit out because of it. Sand is largely the reason why some Pokemon weren't able to sweep as well, due to some Pokemon becoming near 100% counters in it.

"It uses sand! IT ISN'T A SAND TEAM! BUT IT USES SAND!" I hesitate to quote the first two offensive words of your post.

It's not broken. People are just QQing that Sand has a rival.

Sorry if it offended you, but you really aren't listening.

@kefka
I might just be doing it wrong, but my opponate generally uses some death fodder, and then sends in something with a little bulk (or steel) and tries to sweep.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

Sorry if it offended you, but you really aren't listening.

@kefka
I might just be doing it wrong, but my opponate generally uses some death fodder, and then sends in something with a little bulk (or steel) and tries to sweep.

I am just quoting this because I agree with your first part towards Unholy Confessions.

And also, agree with this point on the DM spam, as that seems to be what I see... Something bulky comes in that can set up and sweep generally after they sacrifice a pokemon to a DM. Although, I do tend to have the same problems as Kefka on the same issue, but thats mainly because I HATE set up sweepers, and I run more stall based teams, so taking massive damage from DM tends to chip me away too quick to handle sometimes. My team is very Latios/Latias weak though.