Banning Speed Boost + x is not akin to SwSw + Drizzle, because doing so would be removing it from the pokemon that uses it. No one took SwSw away from Kingdra and Kabutops to make them useable in Drizzle. Rather, they prevented its use with a factor completely separate from the pokemon itself.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Omastar doesn't have Draco Meteor to smash water absorbers, dry skin pokes, and specially defensive bulky waters.
And the fact that people were using Kindgra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops over Omastar, Qwilfish, and whatever, means that the former are better than the latter. Less good = possibly not broken and deserving of a test.
And mantine is not just for it's sweeping potential (which it does have in that condition) but for it's excellent defenses (especially special defense) and it's typing, which, other than the SR weak, Gyarados has been enjoying for quite a while now. (fighting resist? yes please. ground immune? Definantly. Water and Fire aren't shabby either. And only 2 weaknesses, rock and electric, which aren't to die for stabs).
@XienZo:
We had 2 propositions that came up. One was Alderons, and one was... some other dude's... I don't remember his name but he had this whole plan on banning just the initial 3 and seeing if any others were broken after him, in which if there WERE, they would hit the next suspect testing phase in which they may or nay not be banned... if they were then we would wait to see who the NEXT were to be banned... Which, by just looking at the stats and the plethora of swift swimmers that were still at bay, I think just by looking at them, we could tell pretty quickly that they were going to be banned by testing.
But I agree, testing them would have been much more... I don't know... fair? But at this time during suspect round 2, people were dieing to have Drizzle banned, and were not willing to go through all the testing. Honestly, I wouldn't have CARED if we tested for another year going through all the swift swimmers. But apparently that wasn't the case and I supported Alderons proposal merely for the fact that it was much simpler than testing 15 different + pokemon and cascade banning, and because it was more important to the meta that we kept drizzle in general.
To be honest, where were you during this in Suspect 2? Were you arguing this? Why are you arguing it now because this argument was over basically 3 months ago.
We had 2 propositions that came up. One was Alderons, and one was... some other dude's... I don't remember his name but he had this whole plan on banning just the initial 3 and seeing if any others were broken after him, in which if there WERE, they would hit the next suspect testing phase in which they may or nay not be banned... if they were then we would wait to see who the NEXT were to be banned... Which, by just looking at the stats and the plethora of swift swimmers that were still at bay, I think just by looking at them, we could tell pretty quickly that they were going to be banned by testing.
But I agree, testing them would have been much more... I don't know... fair? But at this time during suspect round 2, people were dieing to have Drizzle banned, and were not willing to go through all the testing. Honestly, I wouldn't have CARED if we tested for another year going through all the swift swimmers. But apparently that wasn't the case and I supported Alderons proposal merely for the fact that it was much simpler than testing 15 different + pokemon and cascade banning, and because it was more important to the meta that we kept drizzle in general.
To be honest, where were you during this in Suspect 2? Were you arguing this? Why are you arguing it now because this argument was over basically 3 months ago.
Doing the exact same thing I am now.
What's important to remember is that nothing by the suspect process is finalized, and we can always nominate for things to be revisited.
I also supported Alderon's since it was better than the second-most-popular Drizzle ban. But now that people have calmed down a bit about it, it may be the time to go and revisit Alderon's proposal and see if there's a better solution about the whole issue.
Personally, just by looking at HALF of the swift swimmers, I can easily say that they would be banned. They aren't all that much different. Stab water falls and hydro pumps in rain.
Personally I don't WANT to conclude purely on theorymonning, but sometimes its pretty blatantly obvious what would be a threat. If people were complaining about Ludicolo using Hydropump/Ice Beam/Giga Drain in the rain... Whos to say that Hp Electric, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Earth Power coming off Omastars base attack in the rain isnt going to be just a scary? Albeit rock typing, and lower speed... but more power and more support moves to boot. And that's just Omastar.
I think over all, I just got to say, if we had to test you would HAVE to admit that at least half of the swift swimmers are pretty damn obvious in what would be under suspect. Thats a lot of banning and suspect testing to be honest. 6 or 7+ (at least?) bans for the likes of Lumineon or Beartic.
Personally I don't WANT to conclude purely on theorymonning, but sometimes its pretty blatantly obvious what would be a threat. If people were complaining about Ludicolo using Hydropump/Ice Beam/Giga Drain in the rain... Whos to say that Hp Electric, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Earth Power coming off Omastars base attack in the rain isnt going to be just a scary? Albeit rock typing, and lower speed... but more power and more support moves to boot. And that's just Omastar.
I think over all, I just got to say, if we had to test you would HAVE to admit that at least half of the swift swimmers are pretty damn obvious in what would be under suspect. Thats a lot of banning and suspect testing to be honest. 6 or 7+ (at least?) bans for the likes of Lumineon or Beartic.
Come on people, even the very slowest swift swim pokemon like Carracosta with 32 base speed will outspeed Gengar and Latios under rain, hell he will even outspeed Thundurus. There are simply too many of these guys to give double speed and boosted stab water attacks too, i dont understand how anyone could think its a good idea to unleash the beasts again, rain teams are already arguably the best weather teams, how much more powerfull do you want to make rain before your satisfied?
People were complaining that Ludicolo could pick up the slack on the special side where Kingdra and Kabutops couldn't. It wasn't ever a overcentralizing threat by itself, it just frustrated that "Throw Ferrothron at a rain team and you'll be fine" logic.
Most of the threat came from Kingdra itself, which could easily decimate most pokemon. Kabutops and Ludicolo were just notable in that they took down the few things that stopped Kingdra.
Basically, even Kabutops and Ludicolo wouldn't have been sure-fire banned after Kingdra was gone, and everything below them is even less so.
Regardless of whether all SwSw pokes were broken in the rain, banning the combo of SwSw+Drizzle allows for the continued use of Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops, as well as Gorebyss, except not in a broken form. Also, the styles of Rain Offense and Rain stall still exist. and both are perfectly legitimate and quite powerful strategies in their own right. Banning things like Luvdisc on Drizzle teams was by far the lesser of two evils, so to speak, and no styles have truly been sent to a position of being inviable in the process, which qualifies as a success in my book.
You really haven't been paying attention have you?
Drizzle by itself isn't the problem. Neither is swift swim. That was the argument 3 months ago. It is the combination between the 2. Alderons proposal basically made the combo ban merely for the fear that if drizzle was banned, we would lose diversity to the metagame as well possibly have to deal with over powered sun and sand teams resulting in their bans as well.
The combination ban was made to preserve drizzle in an attempt to keep diversity. Banning Drizzle overall would be worse for the meta game. At least by majority's opinion.
Just quoting this to say this is 95% of how I feel. So, yeah. Success.
Of course, of course.
Doesn't mean we can't do better though. Especially when we're just going around banning Brightpowder anyway, we might as well see if there's something else we could look at.
HP electric doesn't have stab, even if Omastar's Sp atk is higher. And Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops are the only ones with the power to break through water's traditional resists- Kingdra's powerful Draco meteor, Ludicolo's quad resist, SE Stab, and the fact it even heals him (or focus blast in the case of Ferrothorn). Kabutops is more arguable, with only 115 base attack and a 100 BP Stab move to rely on, but the ability to go adamant helps his attack, Kingdra and Ludicolo wish they had Nasty Plot while Kabutops gets SD, and his vulnerability to priority and necessity to OHKO most things due to his somewhat poor defensive typing actually make his brokeness arguable, if he didn't have the other two around to wear down bulky waters just a bit- all he needs.
Qwilfish has less attack than Kabutops, a weaker non-water stab with much worse type coverage. Kabutops even had his own support options in rapid spin and aqua jet. Omastar needs HP to break Bulky waters, in which case ferrothorn can take a hit and OHKO it back thanks to quad grass weak. Mach punch weak doesn't help either if you're using shell smash. Gorebyss and Huntail are basically inferior Omastars outside of their ability to BP, which works the same in or out of rain- therefore they'd be broken in or out of rain (unless Omastar's also found broken... but I doubt it).
I fail to see the purpose in finding a "perfect" way to get rid of the Drizzle+SwSw problem, as there is little need, for most SwSwpokes are only good for niche usage or just outright broken in the rain. All in all, it would take repeated testings of many pokes and formats for a very minute benefit, but if that is really what people insist must be done, it's possible.
Forget Quilfish, Carracosta has higher attack than him and will outspeed even Thunderus in rain, and has base 133 defense. It has stab Stone Edge and EQ, and has Waterfall and Hydro Pump & focus blast (which it has the stats to use, it has a higher special attack that Mantine which people are using now with swift swim and rain to great effect).
Wait a minute, Blaziken was banned? Why didn't anyone tell me? Now the Standard team I've been planning is ruined! Now what am I supposed to use? Combusken!?
And even though it's the rules and that's the way it is, I find it weird that every Blaziken ever is banned, but the one that people were complaining about is only in Japan and a limited-time-only event that isn't even possible now, because GL is down, and that you can only get if you traded with a Japanese person. It's like banning Blissey because of Wish, on depressants. It's also like banning Jirachi because of Draco Meteor, not on depressants, but if you don't live in a country where that event didn't happen. Both scenarios are ridiculous compared to banning Blaziken, but it's sort of like it in the way it was banned.
Point is, in an actual, realistic and true to Wifi metagame, most of the Blaziken would be inferior to Infernape because they have Blaze instead of Speed Boost. And I'm not talking about unbanning it, or saying that such a ban would be a good idea, but the argument of that banning only Speed Boost Blaziken would be bad because then if you catch one you can't use it, is flawed, because there is only one you can get, and that was only if you have a Japanese game, were lucky enough to get one instead of Unburden Treecko or Damp Mudkip, downloaded it to the Entree Forest before GL went down, and specifically, knowingly, and intentionally caught it. And you can't even breed it to make SB baby Torchic.
And even though it's the rules and that's the way it is, I find it weird that every Blaziken ever is banned, but the one that people were complaining about is only in Japan and a limited-time-only event that isn't even possible now, because GL is down, and that you can only get if you traded with a Japanese person. It's like banning Blissey because of Wish, on depressants. It's also like banning Jirachi because of Draco Meteor, not on depressants, but if you don't live in a country where that event didn't happen. Both scenarios are ridiculous compared to banning Blaziken, but it's sort of like it in the way it was banned.
Point is, in an actual, realistic and true to Wifi metagame, most of the Blaziken would be inferior to Infernape because they have Blaze instead of Speed Boost. And I'm not talking about unbanning it, or saying that such a ban would be a good idea, but the argument of that banning only Speed Boost Blaziken would be bad because then if you catch one you can't use it, is flawed, because there is only one you can get, and that was only if you have a Japanese game, were lucky enough to get one instead of Unburden Treecko or Damp Mudkip, downloaded it to the Entree Forest before GL went down, and specifically, knowingly, and intentionally caught it. And you can't even breed it to make SB baby Torchic.
Well actually, SwSw Carracosta has 326 max Speed in Rain, so Latios still outspeeds it... but then again it has Aqua Jet and Shell Smash so fuck it.
Still pedantic, I see. Simulators work with what's legally possible to obtain, it doesn't matter if it's difficult. Black/White didn't even exist in Europe/US a month ago, and yet we had the simulators. It IS possible to have one on Wi-Fi, and if Wi-Fi players believe it's too difficult to obtain than whatever, they may come to terms and not use Speed Boost Blaziken (or rather, "any event-only pokémon such as Wish Blissey") in battle, just like they did in 4th Gen. Any Smogon Wi-Fi Tournament, however, will most surely ban Blaziken as a whole, as cloning is the cornerstone of the Wi-Fi forum "economy" so, if one guy gets a Speed Boost Torchic, everyone else does. And we would totally ban Blissey for Wish if we found that necessary.
And thanks, you reminded me I have a SB Torchic to soft-reset for and then broadcast it through pirate GTS to the whole world.
I find it funny how people said
Person 1: Manaphy is broken
Person 2: Blaziken is broken, too.
Person 1: No, it's not, it has plenty of counters.
Person 2: Like what?
Person 1: Excadrill is broken, too.
Person 2: But you didn't even answer my question...
Months later...
Person 1: Blaziken is broken!
Person 1: Manaphy is broken
Person 2: Blaziken is broken, too.
Person 1: No, it's not, it has plenty of counters.
Person 2: Like what?
Person 1: Excadrill is broken, too.
Person 2: But you didn't even answer my question...
Months later...
Person 1: Blaziken is broken!
So, both sides agreed upon it. Isn't that good?
?, how is that?, without SwSw activated he has 179 max speed and SwSw doubles it. 179 x 2 = 358 speed.
Latios has max speed of 350, so im right, Carracostra outspeeds Latios and all other base 110 & Base 111 speed pokes in rain.
Carracosta, the slowest of all fully evolved Swift Swimers, will outspeed even Thundurus.
EDIT: i dint even know Carracosta packed shell smash, with atht revelation id say he even outclasses Kabutops (Carracosta has the movepool to go mixed).
You forgot the +speed nature :P
They're only "niche" because the other Pokemon were so monstrously better. If you get rid of the top two or three, those "niches" don't become so "niche." They simply become the norm.
I also find people over-exaggerate strengths a LOT on these forums, without looking at weaknesses. Nearly everyone was throwing around how broken Haxorus would be because of that base 147 attack and ability to DD, but now everyone just thinks it's a joke. Everyone was afraid that Volcorona was going to be crippled to UU or below by it's SR weakness, and now it's one of the top threats. And now we have people crying wolf about how good the Rain boosts are to Swift Swimmers. Yes, the boosts exists, we get that part, but you have to pay attention to their weaknesses as much as their strengths if you want to Theorymon correctly, and once you get past the amazing typing and bulk of the broken Swimmers, you quickly realize how underwhelming everything else is.
Playing on PO Blaziken hasn't given me any problems because everyone is so stupid they use the illegal BP set. I have never been swept by a blaziken because I kept a dnite or a gyrados close to me. Also we should try swift swim+drizzle again. Its on PO and it isn't broken. You haven't had a suspect test with drizzle with swift swim without manaphy. And no Deoxys-N isn't broken because if it doesn't hit something super effectively, it doesn't die. I play dream world and genosect runs it over. Oh and if you want to play in a metagame with swift swim try it out on PO.
Oh and I've been noticing.
If someone thinks a poke is overpowered they either
1.adapt and change their team to counter it (the majority of top ranked teams)
2.Complain about and ban it (most of us)
3.Abuse it
Really people need to adapt to the metagame and get some counters to it. The top ranked teams don't have weather, don't have blaziken, or any of the possibily broken stuff on PO. (Hint: skarmchans)
Oh and I've been noticing.
If someone thinks a poke is overpowered they either
1.adapt and change their team to counter it (the majority of top ranked teams)
2.Complain about and ban it (most of us)
3.Abuse it
Really people need to adapt to the metagame and get some counters to it. The top ranked teams don't have weather, don't have blaziken, or any of the possibily broken stuff on PO. (Hint: skarmchans)
FYI, we did test Drizzle + Swift Swim - Manaphy.
Also, only the people who are in #1 can do #2 by virtue of the voting system.
Unless I am mistaken, you just effectively shot yourself by suggesting that SkarmBliss (Or Chansey) is broken.
The rest of your post was terrible as well.
...you telling me that PO allows the Beastdra to go unrestricted with swift Swim under drizzle and they have no problems with it?, at all?, i mean im seeing their tiers and i see that the Beastdra is allowed, and its fine?
I dont believe that smogon should take PO seriously at all, clearly people over there aren't taking advantage of the power of teh pokemans as they should be.
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