I have to say that anyone who says that Hyderigon is outclassed by Latios or that he isn't a threats is either making shit up or has only faced people who don't know how to use Hyderigon. Hyderigon is just really fucking hard to switch into, and tears down the normal switch-ins that plague Latios with ease. I use Dark Pulse / Fire Blast / Draco Meteor / Focus Blast with an Expert Belt. I used to use Life Orb, but the recoil combined with the sand damage from my Tyranitar was really hampering it. Choice band Terrakion is also an amazing set. It just deals out 2HKOes and OHKOes like nothing, and Spikes support basically makes it unstoppable.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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QFT. I would MUCH rather face Latios than Hydreigon, because once the latter gets in, you are essentially forced to correctly predict its move with something that can outspeed and force it out. The difference between HP Fire and Fire Blast is enormous, meaning that your SpD Jirachi or Ferrothorn will not be switching in easily at all. And with Focus Blast completing its coverage on Tyranitar, the tier's premiere special tank is screwed over. At least with Latios I have solid checks that I can switch in with relative safety.
And I couldn't agree more on Terrakion. I personally am a bigger fan of the double dance set, which plows through Gliscor and Skarmory regardless of what stage of the game it is, opening up sweeps for your other teammates. The ability to Rock Polish really helps against Excadrill and Venusaur should you pull it off before they switch in, too. So underrated.
there's too many things he can setup on .. and reuniclus have a team to support him who's job is to attract those mons , (tyranitar and conkeldurr for example ) , it's really hard to stop that , nearly impossible .. he's gonna grab that CM sooner or later .. and once he did , like you said you'r gonna lose at least one mon , if not the game if he setup late game ..
seriously a well played reuniclus is just too good , and of course , magic guard ^^ .
I wasn't talking about a reuniclus who's being thrown in any team , but on a well thought team who's job is to let him setup ..
you can say it's true for any pokemon but magic guard + recover is just too much .
I'm sure the meta would be more enjoyable without him :D
A Reuniculus with 1 Calm Mind is as dangerous as a breeze, so you should be able to easily take him down. If you really want to screw Reuniculus over, just run Wobbuffet. He can easily switch in on Reuniculus, and either Encore the Calm Mind version so something else can take him out, or Mirror Coat the Trick Room version for the KO. In fact, I rarely even think about Reuniculus as a major threat when i'm building a team, I just happen to have things that take him on with great ease.
I also have to agree with this, Hydreigon has always impressed me more than Latios has. Sets that aren't choiced are impossible to switch into without Chansey or Blissey, while some Pokemon can work around the coverage Latios runs. Hydreigon's Speed doesn't hamper him much, in fact it helps him a little bit, because most Pokemon in his speed tier lose to him regardless of whether they outspeed him or not, which lets him invest in some extra bulk and run Modest for extreme power. With good prediction, you can annihilate all of Hydreigon's standard switch-ins.
Jirachi? Scorch it with Fire Blast.
Jellicent? Destroy it with Dark Pulse.
Ferrothorn? Melt it with Fire Blast.
Tyranitar? Blow it to pieces with Focus Blast (assuming it doesn't miss).
I'll have to try Expert Belt, however. I never did like the amount of residual damage it picked up. It also hits super effectively on many, many things, so I suppose more often than not it'll be picking up that Expert Belt boost.
In other news, decided to stick a Tyranitar on my new team for help in absorbing Fire and Flying attacks (believe it or not, my team is horribly Tornadus weak). It hasn't really done anything for the team; none of the other team members benefit directly from sand, and one of them has its precious leftovers negated from it. Everybody is so prepared for Tyranitar nowadays that the surprise factor it used to have with its special attacks just doesn't exist anymore. Every Gliscor switches out, every Ferrothorn switches out, heck, even some Blissey and Chansey switch in. I'll have to find a better lead.
And now I've moved massively off-topic. Feel free to ignore all of the above, it's not really irrelevant.
which is actually what quite alot of teams are this round. Lots of teams, mine included, run only a few quite fast Pokemon because of all the powerful threats that require bulky Pokemo to take on, and Hyderigon just has fun with that. His bulk also helps a whole damn lot. I've actually survived a Lucario's Aura Sphere just as one show of his bulk.
Agreed with everything you said. But I don't consider most experiences in the 1200s to be an accurate representation of the metagame at the high end. It's annoying to hear people say non-weather is viable because you're beating people who aren't utilizing a top tier team.
It's not being arrogant. I'm just saying make sure your credentials are bold enough to back up the claims you're making about the metagame.
If your rating is 1250 you're going to see some people up to 1450 so I disagree that you won't see what the top players are using.
And even if they don't represent the high end, who cares? Our goal is to make a good metagame for everyone, not just the top 10 people.
Not really. Hax Jirachi and sp.def TTar are everywhere redardless of Latios' presence.
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Jirachi is way more annoying than any Latios or Garchomp. It's a "hax" if you get to move, if you don't one shot with a EQ or Fire Blast you'll have half of your team paralized asking for a Garchomp sweep. Nothing can switch into it without considerable amount of risk.
Not only that, but when you think it may get a good matchup against it... boom, it's the CM version. And there goes your "check".
I still hold my opinion that "top threats" (like Swift Swim, Deoxys, Manaphy, Drought, Thundurus, Latios, etc.) balance each other well enough. I'd rather have my team sweeped by a well played Politoed than the hax fest that's everywhere now and takes no skill to abuse in the form of Garchomp and Jirachi.
Nitpicking, but you ARE being arrogant and elitist in inferring that anyone that is not "Top 10" are not worth listening to.
But...
Fine.
I got to #5th on the ladder with a non weather team (granted this was before Stage 4 testing came out) and around 24th during Stage 4 before hax and university made me slip down a bit. I have beaten many top weather teams with a non weather team (and no I don't ran random shit like Hail Tentacruel or stall). However despite me achieving this I consider my opinion worth exactly the same as somebody else who might not have gotten as high as me. We are a community and its important to discuss the wider viewpoints of the community to get a bigger picture of problems in this metagame.
Regardless, now that i've, "proved myself" to you I think we can agree that non-weather offence is viable and can be very effective provided you actually put effort into the damn team.
A lot of the Pokémon who run SpD sets used to run Choice Scarf a lot in Generation IV, even when Latias was running around in the metagame. In fact, Latias was considered almost THE reason for Choice Scarf Tyranitar's popularity in that era. I'd say that Chlorophyll and Sand Rush Pokémon have contributed more to the rise of the SpD sets than Lati@s have.
No, you are missing his point. Fighting people around the 1250 is not an accurate base for how varied the format is. The simply means your fighting different teams that are not good enough to have a higher rating.
Fine.
And I topped ubers list with flail magikarp team. It has been said infinite times that nonweather can be viable. That still doesn't change that nonweather is at a huge disadvantage against weather.
Maybe, but the ladders at the top prove that running weather yourself works more than just trying to develop a nonweather team to tackle all the other weathers (plus other teams like TR or BP)...
i think that chlorophyll+drought and sand rush+sand veil should be banned because they are broken. pokemon like excadrill need to have a few counters to be beaten on each team, which i think is what makes it uber.
There are far more teams in the 1250s than there are teams in the 1400s. Therefore, the teams in the 1250s are a far better representation of the current metagame than the teams in the 1400s.
That's all there is to it.
That's all there is to it.
Err
How does Flail Magikarp in ubers translate to Standard OU again? Also I fail to see how nonweather is hugely disadvantaged especially since I just proved that you can win many times against full weather teams. Assuming that weather teams are common (they are), do you really think I could have not gotten as high as I have without having countermeasures against Rain, Sand and Sun teams? If there was a "massive disadvantage" then how could I have been successful?
No its doesn't. Weather is so common that there are always going to be weather users at the top of the ladder. Weather IS simple to use ill give you that much, however being simple to use does not make non weather teams any less effective. Not to mention that weather teams also have to protect against other weathers, TR and BP teams.
Man, it just seems that you and Meru ask for proof that non-weather teams are viable and when proof does come along you ignore it. I just showed you that non weather offence is viable and can get you high on the ladder, accept it and move on
HolyChipmunk
California's finest chodesmuggler
How are they broken though? It's only a speed boost. Sandstorm doesn't increase the power of a certain move type, and all chlorophyll users are all grass type.
The problem with Drizzle+Swift Swim was that the Pokemon getting the speed boosts were water type, therefore also getting their water stab moves boosted by the rain.
You can get around chlorophyll/sand rush with priority.
And how do we suppose players actually get to the 1400s in the first place? The higher up on the ladder, the better/more effective the teams (generally speaking). If that implies that the metagame is primarily made up of sub-par teams/players, then we shouldn't be analyzing "the metagame". I'm not saying that players in the 1250s range shouldnt be able to voice their opinions, but the players that win the most will generally have the best idea of what is broken and what isn't, and the players that win the most should be able to surpass the low-mid 1300s.
Unrelated: I've hardly played at all so far this test.
Sarcasm, sir.
And the point of the sarcasm is that just because you said its possible, doesn't make it fact. I peaked at 18th with what I would consider "nonweather', but truth in fact, I ran abomasnow because the team did so much better.
The term you are looking for is "weather wars". Weather is so dominate, that rather than go your route of nonweather, most experienced players would rather just run their own.
sorry to break your heart, but your word is not enough for me to accpet your arguments. the experience of fighting a lot of of people at the top, and those guys have their high ranking because of weather is proof to me that running your own weather is better than fighting an uphill battle...
So? ginjaninja got close to the top of the ladder with a nonweather team, without Abomasnow.
I'll go through this with a full-blown proof by contradiction. Hope you've taken geometry.
- Assume that succeeding on the ladder with a non-weather team is impossible (I take this directly from your wording).
- ginjaninja peaked at #5 with a non-weather team.
- Therefore, it is possible to succeed on the ladder with a non-weather team.
Erm, it is fact that succeeding on the ladder with a non-weather team is possible. Just because you say it's impossible due to your ONE ISOLATED EXPERIENCE doesn't mean it's impossible.
So? Whoopee. Weather is a good strategy. People use it. It's like people in 4th gen running a FWG core towards the end. It's a good strategy. People use it. It's still viable to run a nonweather team.
This is the grammatical equivalent of plugging your ears with your fingers and screaming "LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING".
Is that bad? The term "weather" itself incorporates many strategies on its own. It's practically added a new dimension to the metagame. Is seeing so much weather perhaps *gasp* not a bad thing?
After all, non-weather teams are viable.
I don't see why you'd rather ignore one of those "guys at the top" giving you proof and instead spend all your time alluding to incorporeal people with high rankings that all apparently run weather.
so now let's see your points:
a)Better Speed(true)
b) Better Special Attack(untrue).hydreigon almost always is used as a wall breaker with life orb or a specs user and both of those use modest because they don't get outsped by anythting important that they could outspeed with a timid nature...the only case that hydreigon runs timid is when holding a scarf and it is only then that latios has bigger sp.attack.
c) Resistant to fighting, much more common and threatening than dark.(partially true,partially untrue).i like your lack of reasoning behind this statememnt.
so yes latios resists fighting and sazandora resists dark!so that's all...you forgot to say when your opponent pursuit traps and kills your latios...or you forgot to say that the fighting weakness on hydreigon is sometimes a liability 'cause of the introduction of all the new mach punchers...and last but not least you completely ignore the fact that sazandora resists ghost while latios is weak to it...i am not saying it is very important but it certainly deserves a mention especially when st shandera gets released and can revenge kill latios anytime with a scarf while it can't do the same to hydreigon....
d) Better movepool (Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, etc.)(untrue).this is the reason that i replied to your post!are you fucking serious?i mean really?
let's see the attacking moves that latios gets and hydreigon doesn't that see any competitive use(not like your shitty examples of ice beam on latios):t-bolt and psychic/psycho shock...
now let's see the moves that hydreigon gets and latios doesn't:flamethrower/fire blast,focus blast,dark pulse,earth power!!!
i don't think that there is anything to explain here...
to finish this post it is true that generally latios fills better in the standart ou team but it is so untrue that latios outclasses it...
hydreigon has it's own niche and it is very good at it!it is an excellent wallbreaker(with higher power than latios)that can fit well in any team that doesn't want to have a pursuit weak poke or rely to hp fire to kill serious threats...
as a scarfer he has the obvious advantage of again not being pursuit weak which makes a whole lot of difference when it comes on scarf users!latios would kill to have that freedom to switch out of tyranitar...
and of course generally her movepool can be abused quite a bit to make her not outcalssed at all by latios...
i just can't stand when people get so ignorant and post nonsenses like latios has a better movepool than hydreigon or latios outcalsses hydreigon...
To add on to this, let's look at the two main abusers.
Doryuuzu / Excadrill
Venusaur
Venusaur's rather crappy typing leads it to have several things that can counter it since almost all run Sub, Synthesis, Sleep Powder, or Growth in the first two slots, while the last two slots are either HP Fire / Sludge Bomb, HP Fire / Giga Drain (or Energy Ball, Solar Beam, etc.), or Sludge Bomb / Grass STAB. Sludge Bomb + Grass STAB is quite easily walled by Nattorei / Ferrothorn and Skarmory, while you would have to deal with the (omg innacurate) sleep powder. HP Fire+Grass STAB is more complicated, but Heatran and Shanderaa / Chandelure can survive and KO, unless you managed to let them get to +3 or so. Grass STAB + Sludge Bomb is rather shoddy coverage wise, while being counterd by, again, Nattorei / Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and even Heatran again. Needless to say, Venusaur is subject to meh-ish typing, innacurate set up assists, and 4 slot move syndrome. Venusaur is still a very nice pokemon, but unless you can manage to gain the set-up, you tend to have a difficult time with him.
Doryuuzu / Excadrill is almostthe same. He has decent coverage, but has some solid counters. An Impish 252 HP / 252 Def (which is pretty standard and the best option) Gliscor can easily take any of Dory's moves while being able to KO with EQ. Sure, Return would provide some issues, but then Excadrill is screwed coverage wise while most carry either X-Scissor or Brick Break in the 4th slot. Skarmory works the same where he can shrug of and resist, while also having the wonderful ability to phaze Dory out. As you can see, most Sand Rush and Chlorophyll users you've seen in the metagame since Fall are quite good, but have no way of being broken. Powerful? Of course. Counterable? Absolutely.
Ah, but what about Swift Swim? With a core of Kingdra / Kabutops / Ludicolo, all of which had double the speed, great offensive stats, and a horrifying 50% boosted Hydro Pump / Surf / Waterfall, a Swift Swim abuser could easily win a game with little to no trouble at all. Since the three were so common and uncounterable as a group, but they themselves weren't broken outside of Rain, we had to ban Drizzle+SS.
Edit: At post above.
Wow, I was *%#&$# crazy that night when I posted that. Well, needless to say, if we're talking Special Sweepers, both are good in that regard, but have huge differences that make them uncomparable. I'm sorry for not realizing this earlier. Truly so.
I'd add Sawsbuck to that list, although underrated he is very viable as a physical sweeper under the sun.
...Do you not even know what "sub-par" means?
"Sub-par" means "below standard". There are, at present, 65 players with a rating of 1400 or higher, out of thousands of players total. They are not the standard. Falling short of that does not mean falling short of the standard. Falling short of even a somewhat broader rating does not mean falling short of the standard. If a player has a rating in the mid-1200s or early-1300s, they are not sub-par; if anything, they are par. They may not see the best teams, but they see the standard teams used by players who are actually competitive.
Obviously, not all of the players are competitive. A general benchmark for that is the rating of 1000. This is the same benchmark that has proposed for what to include and what to ignore in changes to how usage stats are used to determine tiers. So a rating that's a bit above halfway between that and the highest ranks anyone gets... that doesn't represent the average player even out of those players, but rather it represents a player that is enough above average to be taken seriously. These players have a perfectly clear view of the "standard" metagame; in fact, they have a clearer view of it than the players with the top rankings.
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