True, true. I can still stand by my point that anything with a STAB MAch Punch / Ice Shard (Mamoswine, Roobushin / Conkelderp, Hitmontop) can do quite well in taking it down if we consider residual damage from LO and with or without rocks, while Skarmory and bulky Scizor can take hits from it quite well.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I am going to ignore that snipe.
No where, in any of my posts, did I say, impossible. I said that the large amount of weather, to me, signifies that your better off running the problem, then trying to answer it. If a nonweather team can sneak into the ladder, it clearly is possible.
Again, never said it was impossible. My ONE ISOLATED EXPIRENCE was just to show that my nonweather team got better with abomasnow, because like other nonweather teams, the ahrdest part of fighting weather is being unable to shut off the opponent's weather.
It is possible to succeed, sure. Viable, on the other hand I would disagree with.
How is his ONE ISOLATED EXPERIENCE, different from my ONE ISOLATED EXPERIENCE? You can't dismiss mine, and then turn around to accept someone else's. And I do not have to take his work 100%, because he peaked with a nonweather team.
That's a matter of opinion. You might think it is, I personnaly do not agree, especially when you are forced into 1 of 3 pokes (hippo and abomasnow are hardly used, period. And most of the hippos that I see used are run right alongside ttar).
You mean one of the guys, who was at the top. I was at the top too, and took a nasty fall after a couple of bad breaks/trying different teams. And the one common theme I have seen regardless of where I was on the ladder is the large amount of weather, and against the same weather (when I run rain), how we have 3-4 of the same poke.
So usage statistics are out, and Politoed isn't even in the top ten. As I would have assumed, everything indicates that sand is more dominant, given everything within the top ten list.
And I'll start shooting people if I hear any "sand counters rain so that's why sand is higher" arguments.
And I'll start shooting people if I hear any "sand counters rain so that's why sand is higher" arguments.
And if OU stopped at the 3.41% usage cutoff used in DPPt, we'd have... 53 OU pokémon, from glorious Ferrothorn to Tornadus.
Yeah, weather really is totally overcentralizing, ban Drizzle let's get it, whatever.
EDIT -- Lol @ ballabrown.
Yeah, weather really is totally overcentralizing, ban Drizzle let's get it, whatever.
EDIT -- Lol @ ballabrown.
OK so 37% or so of all teams are auto weather teams (not counting the hyppo).
Jesus Mishra I am just trying to push forward the idea that non weather offence is viable. Heck by getting high on the ladder (despite facing weather all the time) I have proved that its viable because (lets face it) if non weather offence was un-viable then there is no fucking way I would have gotten as high as I did. FFS even after not touching my account in 5 days I am still around 1400 and inside the Top 50 which still reflects how successful it can be.
Yes weather is common, I am not denying this. Its very easy to create. Just get Politoed, Ferrothorn and 4 more abusers and your set. Its quick fast and easy to play. This does not automatically make it better than non weather offence. Both weather and non weather teams have to watch out for certain threats. Rain might have to worry about opposing Thundurus, Virizion and Rotom W (and yes I guess Tyrantiar) . Sand might worry about Gliscor as well as opposing Rain teams. Every kinda of team has things it needs to check and non weather is no different.
Like I said, the point im making is that non weather offence is not just possible, but viable can you not just accept that?
Yes weather is common, I am not denying this. Its very easy to create. Just get Politoed, Ferrothorn and 4 more abusers and your set. Its quick fast and easy to play. This does not automatically make it better than non weather offence. Both weather and non weather teams have to watch out for certain threats. Rain might have to worry about opposing Thundurus, Virizion and Rotom W (and yes I guess Tyrantiar) . Sand might worry about Gliscor as well as opposing Rain teams. Every kinda of team has things it needs to check and non weather is no different.
Like I said, the point im making is that non weather offence is not just possible, but viable can you not just accept that?
I'm in complete agreement with this. I've recently started building Urugamosu based team that's meant to take down opposing weather teams and sweep with a combination of Toxicroak and Urugamosu. Will I make it to the absolute top? No. This is simply because I wan't to prove to myself and others, after using Sand since Hippowdon existed, that non-weather based assault is possible. Eviolite Dusclops, Nattorei, *yet to be arranged filler*, Donphan, Gliscor, Toxicroak, and Volcarona. While building a normal team, I noticed that Volcarona can take great advantage from sun teams, while Toxicroak takes advantage of Rain, and both cover each others weaknesses. Ferrothorn is blessed by rain, while he and Gliscor can both function effectively as counters to sand based threats (Tyranitar, Excadrill, Scizor). Now, I'M NOT SAYING I BUILT THIS TEAM TO BE A COUNTER TO WEATHER! I'm attempting to build a normal team that takes into consideration the fact that weather is a majority of the metagame, so I have to freakin' deal with it. Bulky offense with a sense of hatred for the weatherman. Surely, I hope that no one here gets the idea that "This guy's team is crap" or "Pffff, I d.g.a.f about this guy. He's low on the ladder since he plays on PO less often than irl." Sure, perhaps some people have this opinion. But NON-WEATHER is viable. Sure, it is Anti-Weather in a sense, but merely a small sense.
As a completely unrelated note, how does everyone feel about Latios / Latias and Deoxys now that they're much lower in the statistics than we acclaimed?
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I feel virtually the same about Latios. A pain in the ass, but he can be managed if you take him into consideration when building teams. I don't like taking him into consideration sometimes so I don't bother. I lose because of it but that's on me. Deoxys-S...I don't care how low he is. That pokemon is not useless beyond the lead position. But we'll see.
I am also currently wondering how the pro-drought ban crowd feels about the statistics...three of drought's best abusers are higher than Ninetales (meaning they aren't limited to just drought to work effectively) and venusaur, the one considered to be the best chlorosweeper is hilariously low. I mean, he's under swampert and scrafty. Drought's presence? Bannable?
I am also currently wondering how the pro-drought ban crowd feels about the statistics...three of drought's best abusers are higher than Ninetales (meaning they aren't limited to just drought to work effectively) and venusaur, the one considered to be the best chlorosweeper is hilariously low. I mean, he's under swampert and scrafty. Drought's presence? Bannable?
Jesus Ginga, I don't know why can't you understand why your sucessful climb, alone, is not enough to completely dismiss all the other weather in the top of the tier. Regardless of what game it is, yu-gi-oh, mtg, pokemon, ect, there will always be a couple of rouge strategies made it to the top.
You made it to the top with nonweather, fantastic. Especially with the rating system in tact, a lot of strategies can sneak in (I don't believe my team should have gotten as high as it did).
I agree, it is possible and can be done (I would go so far to say that the team I ran was nonweather, with abomasnow only there to counter opposing weather). But if someone wanted to try and get into the top 30, and asked me for a good strategy, would I recommend a nonweather team that isn't BP? No, I would not.
Agree to disagree I suppose though, as your definition and my definition of "viable" could be quite different...
@Sand vs Rain. I would think it is just because Ttar has much better bulk and moves then other weather users (as long as sand is out). And some strategies such as TR or BP actually use sand as a cover weather.
You made it to the top with nonweather, fantastic. Especially with the rating system in tact, a lot of strategies can sneak in (I don't believe my team should have gotten as high as it did).
I agree, it is possible and can be done (I would go so far to say that the team I ran was nonweather, with abomasnow only there to counter opposing weather). But if someone wanted to try and get into the top 30, and asked me for a good strategy, would I recommend a nonweather team that isn't BP? No, I would not.
Agree to disagree I suppose though, as your definition and my definition of "viable" could be quite different...
@Sand vs Rain. I would think it is just because Ttar has much better bulk and moves then other weather users (as long as sand is out). And some strategies such as TR or BP actually use sand as a cover weather.
I'm not saying that my climb should dismiss all other weather in the tier. Please quote me where I said that.
I am merely using my climb as an example that non weather offence can be used to good effect in todays Metagame. I am not saying my team is perfect but I am not impressed that you ask for successful high-ranking non weather teams and then when I give you one you ignore it in the hope that it will all just go away.
I am pretty sure my team works successfully (proof being the ranking achieved) therefore non weather offence is viable. Nor am I the only person using successful non-weather teams so really, according to the above definition I guess non weather offence is viable.
However, as you said, we clearly have different definitions regarding what viable actually means.
I am merely using my climb as an example that non weather offence can be used to good effect in todays Metagame. I am not saying my team is perfect but I am not impressed that you ask for successful high-ranking non weather teams and then when I give you one you ignore it in the hope that it will all just go away.
My definition of Viable (found in pretty much any standard Dictionary) states that "Capable of working successfully; feasible".
I am pretty sure my team works successfully (proof being the ranking achieved) therefore non weather offence is viable. Nor am I the only person using successful non-weather teams so really, according to the above definition I guess non weather offence is viable.
However, as you said, we clearly have different definitions regarding what viable actually means.
If nonweather was not viable, meaning it could not be run successfully by anyone, then I think weather would be a problem. There have been a multitude of successful nonweather teams that I have seen high on the ladder. So I can infer that it is not completely outclassed. I think this was stated at the top of this page by woodchuck but people did not seem to notice.
So, about "overcentralization", post-mence Gen4 OU was considered to be a prefectly balanced metagame, right ? So let's compare the last Shoddy stats published (August 2010):
* The most common pokemon was Heatran, at 26.5%. We have Ferrothorn à 21.3%
* There were 44 pokemons above the 3.4% treshold, the 3 least common being Ninjask, Umbreon and Smeargle. We currently have 53 of them, the 3 least common being Venusaur, Porygon2 and Tornadus. I'm pretty sure it speaks for itself.
* Weather teams make up for around 40% of all teams. Politoed has 10% usage. That is all.
The only case where overcentralization talk could make some sense would be Latios, as the three most common pokemons are also its most common checks, but they would probably all make the top 5 without him anyway so it's not really relevant.
I'm not saying we shouldn't ban anything this round (I'm favorable to banning Latios), but overcentralization definitely isn't a good reason to do so.
About Deoxys-S, he's currently bottom OU, at 4.6% usage, and I honestly don't see how does it deserve even a nomination. I mean, its fast Taunt and Screens aren't nearly as good with Thundurus running around, and offensive variants make for a good cleaner and revenge killer, but suspect-worthy, really ? People always say we should always try to adapt and discover how to counter a dominant strategy before thinking of banning it ; not only Deo-S is far from being dominant, but it has literally no impact in the current metagame. It has plenty of checks and hard counters, but no one chooses them for that reason. The only common Sucker Punch is Toxicroak. No one actually chooses Thundurus because of its ability to stop Deoxys. Anything with decent bulk and strength can take a hit and deal back massive damage. Support sets can't even be used as long as the opposing team have an Espeon. As for offensive variants, it can easily take a Shadow Ball with its high SpDef and OHKO back with its own. How common? 3.3%
* The most common pokemon was Heatran, at 26.5%. We have Ferrothorn à 21.3%
* There were 44 pokemons above the 3.4% treshold, the 3 least common being Ninjask, Umbreon and Smeargle. We currently have 53 of them, the 3 least common being Venusaur, Porygon2 and Tornadus. I'm pretty sure it speaks for itself.
* Weather teams make up for around 40% of all teams. Politoed has 10% usage. That is all.
The only case where overcentralization talk could make some sense would be Latios, as the three most common pokemons are also its most common checks, but they would probably all make the top 5 without him anyway so it's not really relevant.
I'm not saying we shouldn't ban anything this round (I'm favorable to banning Latios), but overcentralization definitely isn't a good reason to do so.
About Deoxys-S, he's currently bottom OU, at 4.6% usage, and I honestly don't see how does it deserve even a nomination. I mean, its fast Taunt and Screens aren't nearly as good with Thundurus running around, and offensive variants make for a good cleaner and revenge killer, but suspect-worthy, really ? People always say we should always try to adapt and discover how to counter a dominant strategy before thinking of banning it ; not only Deo-S is far from being dominant, but it has literally no impact in the current metagame. It has plenty of checks and hard counters, but no one chooses them for that reason. The only common Sucker Punch is Toxicroak. No one actually chooses Thundurus because of its ability to stop Deoxys. Anything with decent bulk and strength can take a hit and deal back massive damage. Support sets can't even be used as long as the opposing team have an Espeon. As for offensive variants, it can easily take a Shadow Ball with its high SpDef and OHKO back with its own. How common? 3.3%
I think its safe to say that these statistics have literally smashed any arguments that are directed at anything other than Latios. Even with Latios, in the past, usage statistics for threats like Garchomp and Salamence have had their usage of at least 30% if I recall correctly. Latios is at 13%, and the top 4 all check him, and without being top 4 for that specific reason I might add. Tyranitar is the best sand inducer and an excellent Pokemon all together; Ferrothorn is the single best wall in the entire game and fits on almost every successful team; Scizor is an excellent utility knife with priority, trapping capability, scouting with U-Turn and checks many threats; and Garchomp is simply really powerful, particularly in the sand.
You can still argue about the top of the ladder due to the fact they're unweighted... And I can tell you from starting new alts the bottom is really...ugh
I would really like to see a list only counting people with 1250+ rating. That should eliminate the idiots and the trolls (the unowns that spell out penis), and still be not just the best of the best, but more of the community as a whole.
I would really like to see a list only counting people with 1250+ rating. That should eliminate the idiots and the trolls (the unowns that spell out penis), and still be not just the best of the best, but more of the community as a whole.
To get the community as a whole, a benchmark above 1100 would be unreasonable. The most popular one seems to be 1000, which is probably the best.
That said, I agree with that benchmark the most out of the ways to use the statistics. But even with that in mind, there really isn't much of a difference between the rated and the unrated statistics in the first place, and such benchmarks were meant to be a compromise between the two, so that seems unnecessary. The only difference between the two versions is that the rated statistics don't include Zoroark or Zapdos, and it being clear that they both don't belong in the current OU, it's obvious which one has an ideal representation of the current metagame.
That said, there might be some merit in seeing usage statistics at various higher benchmarks for purely analytical purposes, rather than determining tiers. If that's what you meant in the first place, then disregard my earlier statements.
I don't agree with the bolded portion. There are still stupid sets like Sky Attack Aerodactyl used at the 1000 level, and I am pretty sure that most of Whimsicott's usage falls in that range.
I definately think some usage statistics based around a rating cutoff would be very useful. My personal pick is 1170. It's low enough to not exclude anyone competent but at the same time high enough that people using dumb stuff are excluded.
Also, if you previously said anything related to the top of the ladder being the only thing that counts, and argument you making using usage statistics should be invalid.
Anyway, because I feel like writing some more. I build an new team around NP Thundurus, and so far I'm doing well. Just using a Lum Berry screws most of the usual checks, allowing you to plough through teams with a dead or paralyzed revenge killer. I'm also using Magma Storm/Hp Grass Heatran to trap and eliminate Quagsire, Swampert and Gastrodon. One their Revenge killer is paralyzed and bulky water/grounds are weakened or killed, one turn of setup is all you need to wreck.
Thundurus Status: Suspect
It's maybe not broken, but really, there's nothing that can switch in after Nasty Plot. I've seen a lot of people checking it with Spdef Jirachi, which it 2HKO's with Thunderbolt while handily avoid paralysis. Equally, Blissey can't Twave or Toxic as you 2HKO. The most annoying thing has been Sand/Hail, since the passive wears you down fast. It can't really switch in either. I have seen it take Scarfchomp stone edge from full health and OHKO with HP Ice, but Sandstorm finished it off. Despite that, it's awfully fragile and you need a free switch or a KO to get it in.
Just my thoughts on the only thing I'm using that I think is suspect.
Also, if you previously said anything related to the top of the ladder being the only thing that counts, and argument you making using usage statistics should be invalid.
Anyway, because I feel like writing some more. I build an new team around NP Thundurus, and so far I'm doing well. Just using a Lum Berry screws most of the usual checks, allowing you to plough through teams with a dead or paralyzed revenge killer. I'm also using Magma Storm/Hp Grass Heatran to trap and eliminate Quagsire, Swampert and Gastrodon. One their Revenge killer is paralyzed and bulky water/grounds are weakened or killed, one turn of setup is all you need to wreck.
Thundurus Status: Suspect
It's maybe not broken, but really, there's nothing that can switch in after Nasty Plot. I've seen a lot of people checking it with Spdef Jirachi, which it 2HKO's with Thunderbolt while handily avoid paralysis. Equally, Blissey can't Twave or Toxic as you 2HKO. The most annoying thing has been Sand/Hail, since the passive wears you down fast. It can't really switch in either. I have seen it take Scarfchomp stone edge from full health and OHKO with HP Ice, but Sandstorm finished it off. Despite that, it's awfully fragile and you need a free switch or a KO to get it in.
Just my thoughts on the only thing I'm using that I think is suspect.
Hell no to rating benchmarks. Sure, low on the ladder a lot of people use retarded stuff, but there are also people who use legit stuff for legit runs on the ladder. I think that this is just another non-issue blown out of proportion. The PENIS guy was one guy... -.-
I agree. I'm usually lower down the ladder than most people here, and I think it's a bit unfair if, firstly, my teams don't contribute to the statistics and the tier lists, and secondly, if the tier lists don't represent the metagame that I'm playing.
The tier lists are for everyone, so just because one person isn't seeing a Pokemon as much as the usage statistics suggest, it doesn't mean the statistics are "wrong", or that the methodology used to count them should be adjusted so that they more closely resemble what a player and his friends are seeing and using in the metagame.
Like, yes, maybe a particular player never sees Swampert, and finds it suspicious that it's so high. I've never seen Chansey, so I find it surprising that it's almost made the OU list, but I don't know, other people might see it a lot.
For the purposes of tiering, yes, everyone should count (whether to weight or not is the question) but for the purposes of suspect testing, we really should just be looking at the higher portion of the ladder.
1000 is the rating a new account begins with. To allow 1000 would basically allow everyone.
I would support around 1200, OR over 100 posts, for voter registration, if smogon became more democratic. Which I doubt it will, becuase what people in abolsute power give up there power without a fight? And how could normal posters ever fight? We will just get banned the second we slip out of line.
Way to be paranoid. Smogon's policy is directed by a meritocracy. The players who do the best are allowed to choose the shape of the metagame. That is hardly unreasonable. There isn't anything saying that only mods can vote. Your requirements just mean that much less qualified people would be allowed to vote, and we could start getting really stupid results.
The higher portion of the ladder is not all there is to the metagame.
For bad players, ratings tend to go down more than they go up. Those are the only players whose usage stats shouldn't matter.
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