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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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They won't be banned. Movepool complications are too much of an issue.
this
Oh, don't even get me started on this. Pokemon would be fucking unplayable if all moves had a base accuracy of 80% and below. At the very least, if we don't want low accuracy moves to cost us the game, we don't choose them. EX: choosing Flamethrower over Fire Blast when possible.
Then we get Garchomp where 80% accuracy moves are mandatory. You can't plan for that. Even if you're aware of Sand Veil, you can't 'turn it off' (bearing in mind this is a metagame obsessed with weather control) or pick another ability. Missing against Gliscor or Sandslash randomly will not cost you games, but every miss against Garchomp will hurt you, where relatively harmless Pokemon like the aforementioned lack the ability to really hurt anything outside of what they're supposed to counter.
To reiterate: the worst part of Sand Veil is the fact that the biggest threat in OU gets a free turn 20% of the time, which means free kills or setup for more kills. Nothing does that besides Garchomp. The problem? Garchomp. It's time for this guy to go.
The problem isn't that you don't "expect" your moves to have 80% accuracy, but that you can't do anything more about it than hope your move won't fail. Sure, SS has to be up for SV to activate, but this is an extremely common battle condition and it has nothing to do with "risk vs reward". It could merely be "cost vs benefit", but TTar fits in pretty much any team and Garchomp is still a perfectly functional pokemon under rain, but just without that unavoidable 20% game-breaking chance.
Sand Veil and Brightpowder both introduce luck and only luck, with no relation whatsoever to any skill. Stone Edge is risk vs. reward, and when your only Volcarona check relies on Stone Edge, you should lose one game out of fives against it. By using a slow pokemon to absorb paralysis, you take the risk of it not moving 25% of the time (which could be avoided by using an immunity/Natural Curer). Luck management is a desirable characteristic of this game, even when it means the best player will not always win, but SV has nothing to do with that, as it introduces game-breaking luck without any added-value regarding skill.
NB : Seriously, please do not mention Aura Sphere and No Guard without a log showing them handle Garchomp, the only relevant user (and they're also no use against Gliscor and Froslass anyway).
Sand Veil and Brightpowder both introduce luck and only luck, with no relation whatsoever to any skill. Stone Edge is risk vs. reward, and when your only Volcarona check relies on Stone Edge, you should lose one game out of fives against it. By using a slow pokemon to absorb paralysis, you take the risk of it not moving 25% of the time (which could be avoided by using an immunity/Natural Curer). Luck management is a desirable characteristic of this game, even when it means the best player will not always win, but SV has nothing to do with that, as it introduces game-breaking luck without any added-value regarding skill.
NB : Seriously, please do not mention Aura Sphere and No Guard without a log showing them handle Garchomp, the only relevant user (and they're also no use against Gliscor and Froslass anyway).
Please don't extrapolate from one to infinity. More luck based =/= unplayable. Though I do agree that higher-accuracy moves are generally better.
Then we get Thunder Wave and Body Slam where 75% accuracy moves are mandatory. You can't turn those off, unlike Sand Veil where you can *try* changing the weather. Paralysis is even worse than Sand Veil. Why have I not seen anyone complain about that, then? (The abusers, not the moves, that is.)
Are you really saying that Gliscor lacks the ability to really hurt anything other than the set of pokemon it counters? Or did you just mean Sandslash and the others like it? Also, speaking as one who's used Chomp a lot and had it used against me a lot, Chomp is sort of like Explosion users from Gen IV, at least in what he does: KO something (hopefully), then go down damaging something else. If you're unlucky, chomp will KO two somethings. However, then 80% works the other way, too: You have rather good odds of only having one thing KOed by Chomp.
Switch a set-up mon into a wall that does nothing to it. You just got a free turn, and have a chance to damage the opponent's team from there. How is that different?
I use Garchomp. I love using Garchomp, but it just way too goddamn powerful. It's not the "unnecessary" luck or whatever that people are complaining about these days, the problem is that Garchomp is far too strong. 20% evasion by itself is NOT a problem. Gliscor does not screw you over if you miss a surf or something aimed at it. Neither does Frolass. Banning Sand Veil, Snow Cloak is ridiculous because none of the Pokemon are strong enough for a certain amount of luck to completely change the game. Garchomp is different--it doesn't just have sand veil, it abuses it. Chomp is not the strongest Pokemon in OU, but it is up there. It is strong enough so that a single missed shot at it can and will change the game. Luck has and always been a part of Pokemon--if you don't like hax, don't play this game. But Sand Veil Garchomp brings too much luck to the game, and so I think it should be banned.
You can use Gravity or Defog.
Ironically I used that same logic stating why Sand Veil shouldn't be banned.
Mandatory if you allow SS to be activated and don't counter it.
This is false. If you don't plan for 80% accuracy versus chomp then you're planning wrong. Besides, you can turn it off by running your own weather or rarer anti-weather abilities. Toed and Nintales exist, Cloud Nine exists, so it is then up to the player countering Garchomp to pick another ability if they don't wanna play the 80% accuracy game.
True. Garchomp is the strongest poke with Sand Veil and the rest aren't broken and therefore neither is Sand Veil as an ability, for the record.
I was hoping we'd get around to this argument, thank you. However, Garchomp has to be in sand for this to happen, and Ttar might be the most used weather starter but it's not the only one. Under the 20% logic, free kills and setup only occur 1/5 times one faces Garchomp. Other weathers, from what I recall ironically bout 20% of the meta, counter Sand Veil by nature. If chomp is bugging you that much, use Drizzle or a cloud nine pokemon because if only Sand Veil is breaking Garchomp then there are ways to play around that fairly common in OU.
I think the XX + YY system is more accurate than a minimum rating, but it's true that 23 isn't much. Something like 20 + 20 , 25 + 15 or 15 + 30 would probably be better (they all currently give 31-32 voters).
About Sand Veil, considering Cloud Nine as something even remotely close to viable is plain ridiculous and really doesn't help you.Seriously, it's as useless as Aura Sphere and No Guard against Garchomp, with the added benefit of also being useless against everything else.
Drizzle and Drought are the only things that could be considered as a workaround, but there's no way anyone can constantly keep Sandstorm off the field, and once Garchomp is in, you can't stop Sandstorm without giving him the free turn he's looking for, your starter, and thus, the game. Unless you can show me a log of a high-ranked SubChomp countered by weather. I've used this set, and trust me, weather just can't go off as long as Garchomp is in.
I wouldn't mind about Sand Veil if there was even only one safe, surefire way to touch him, but it always comes down to pure luck.
About Sand Veil, considering Cloud Nine as something even remotely close to viable is plain ridiculous and really doesn't help you.Seriously, it's as useless as Aura Sphere and No Guard against Garchomp, with the added benefit of also being useless against everything else.
Drizzle and Drought are the only things that could be considered as a workaround, but there's no way anyone can constantly keep Sandstorm off the field, and once Garchomp is in, you can't stop Sandstorm without giving him the free turn he's looking for, your starter, and thus, the game. Unless you can show me a log of a high-ranked SubChomp countered by weather. I've used this set, and trust me, weather just can't go off as long as Garchomp is in.
I wouldn't mind about Sand Veil if there was even only one safe, surefire way to touch him, but it always comes down to pure luck.
Actually, one of my favorite strategies for beating Garchomp a few months ago was Cloud Nine. It worked. Well. Also, Cloud Nine is not useless against everything else. Chlorophyll sweeper? Cloud Nine Scarfed Ice Beam to the rescue! Excadrill? Scarfed Surf to the rescue!
How about designing your team so that Garchomp isn't as much of a threat to it? (Yes, that is easier said than done, but it is also quite doable.)
Scarfed Golduck using Ice Beam works.
Logs from a mid-ranked battle ? All I could see happening against a decent SubChomp is Golduck eating 70%ish damage in order to break Garchomp's sub.
My team is actually well-prepared against Garchomp, but I (like everyone else) still get an unavoidable, game-breaking penalty one time out of five against him. Not because my opponent outplayed me, not because a risk I took kicked in, not because of a flaw in my team's design, but simply because he's Garchomp.
As for how this issue should be dealt with, I believe a Sandstream+Sand Veil ban is by far the best solution, as Garchomp w/o TTar is a perfectly legit pokemon which contributes to the game's diversity, but I guess a straightforward Garchomp ban is still better than nothing.
I'm against any sort of Sand Veil ban instead of Garchomp, but... Are you suggesting using Gravity against a 130 base Attack, 102 base Speed Dragon/Ground pokémon...
Sorry, I don't save logs very often, and I don't use Golduck anymore (completely different team, now). General result was: I switch in on the sub, Ice Beam while they Swords Dance, and then they're down next turn.
It is avoidable/isn't game-breaking. Build your team so that it won't be able to get in enough/so that the miss won't matter as much.
I, being of the opinion that the metagame is mostly balanced, would disagree, but if I had to pick a way to remove that situation, I would agree with you there.
Sand Veil is not really broken, IMO. Sure, I have about a 20% chance to miss him, but really, it's no bigger deal than missing a Stone Edge.
Also, the most common moves agains Garchomp are at 100% acc. Just pretend that all your moves are at Stone Edge acc. I mean, come on, you guys act like Sand Veil makes you miss like Dynamicpunch or Sheer Cold.
tl;dr 80% acc. isn't a big deal.
Also, the most common moves agains Garchomp are at 100% acc. Just pretend that all your moves are at Stone Edge acc. I mean, come on, you guys act like Sand Veil makes you miss like Dynamicpunch or Sheer Cold.
tl;dr 80% acc. isn't a big deal.
This tbh. And also, if something must be banned, I really think it should be the Pokemon, not the ability. Sorry, but I don't think Ice Beam having 80% accuracy in a sandstorm makes Sandshrew broken.
Why are we still talking about Sand Veil.
If you want to argue about banning any ability at ALL ask yourself these questions:
-What Pokemon get it?
-Are all of them broken within the meta-game solely because of it?
If you realize that only one thing is at all a problem within the ability, it's a good indication that it's probably not the ability that is forcing it to be broken, but rather the one Pokemon as a whole that's broken.
Enslave Garchomp.
If you want to argue about banning any ability at ALL ask yourself these questions:
-What Pokemon get it?
-Are all of them broken within the meta-game solely because of it?
If you realize that only one thing is at all a problem within the ability, it's a good indication that it's probably not the ability that is forcing it to be broken, but rather the one Pokemon as a whole that's broken.
Enslave Garchomp.
So I go to check this thread after not reading it for a while and find people are still butthurt from 4th Gen.
I know it's Garchomp people, but calm down. Shit isn't 4th Gen anymore, and trying to get a ban to a not broken pokemon off a good but unreliable ability...?
Grow up and face the fact that there's one viable Sand Veil abuser in the entire game, and it just happens to be a top Poke, and that those aren't directly connected >.>
I know it's Garchomp people, but calm down. Shit isn't 4th Gen anymore, and trying to get a ban to a not broken pokemon off a good but unreliable ability...?
Grow up and face the fact that there's one viable Sand Veil abuser in the entire game, and it just happens to be a top Poke, and that those aren't directly connected >.>
Okay.
To be honest, I really don't have a problem with Sand Veil, and when activated, 100% -> 80% really isn't a big deal, as the others have posted beforehand. 102 Speed isn't what it used to be in this metagame, and with so many bulkier or faster threats omnipresent, I would say Garchomp is the least of the metagame's worries right now. I'm really not sure which is the winning side now.
To be honest, I really don't have a problem with Sand Veil, and when activated, 100% -> 80% really isn't a big deal, as the others have posted beforehand. 102 Speed isn't what it used to be in this metagame, and with so many bulkier or faster threats omnipresent, I would say Garchomp is the least of the metagame's worries right now. I'm really not sure which is the winning side now.
Would anyone mind listing all the new viable poekmon who also happen to give garchomp trouble (counter, check, revenge) so we can end this whole discussion. If there are enough to of them then this whole thing should end.
Counterng sand veil with my own weather however is ridiculous. The cloud nine pokemon and weather starters cannot switch in to tyranitar or take him on well.
Counterng sand veil with my own weather however is ridiculous. The cloud nine pokemon and weather starters cannot switch in to tyranitar or take him on well.
Y'know, throughout all these arguments, we've always assumed that since all Pokemon will get a DW ability eventually, we would eventually run into no problems with blanket banning abilities since the pokemon could always use the "other" ability.
But what if BOTH abilities get banned? That is, if Snow Cloak and, let's say, Swift Swim, get banned, that would ban both abilities of Beartic, effectively banning it to Ubers.
I mean, do we really want to make it so that IF we ban Snow Cloak, we're no longer able to consider banning Swift Swim altogether in the future, lest we ban the horribly outclassed Beartic to ubers?
But what if BOTH abilities get banned? That is, if Snow Cloak and, let's say, Swift Swim, get banned, that would ban both abilities of Beartic, effectively banning it to Ubers.
I mean, do we really want to make it so that IF we ban Snow Cloak, we're no longer able to consider banning Swift Swim altogether in the future, lest we ban the horribly outclassed Beartic to ubers?
I'm just going to note here:
Sand Veil does not break chomp, but a miss against chomp, especially two in a row, means that you are screwed.
I am still against banning it; sand veil is cheap but chomp is definitely manageable.
Snow cloak does not deserve bans in the first place; the only one people give a crap about is Garchomp.
Sand Veil does not break chomp, but a miss against chomp, especially two in a row, means that you are screwed.
I am still against banning it; sand veil is cheap but chomp is definitely manageable.
Snow cloak does not deserve bans in the first place; the only one people give a crap about is Garchomp.
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