np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[GatoDelFuego]

Drought

I'd like us to stop and pause for a second before we jump to the conclusion that Drought is extreme. We aren't facing +2 Speed Heatran with double STAB Fire Blast, or double speed Infernape with SD + Flare Blitz. The fact that they are separate makes Drought more difficult to succeed with by default, and it has a wider variety of checks to it. The biggest issues, IMO, would be Victini, Sawsbuck, Venusaur, and possibly Darmanitan, all of which have safe checks in OU. Let's not be too hasty in banning it should Drizzle/Sand go.

Well, Drought is indeed a different story. The abusers aren't as fast, but they are a hell of a lot more powerful. CB darmanitan+Flare Blitz.....Fire is also an excellent attacking type this gen. Half of all physical walls are steel type. steel types don't take fire very well.

It certainly doesn't help that many fire types get Fighting, the best attacking type in the history of pokemon. Even while Jellicent will wall both of those, it doesn't defend from Victini's psychics/thunders and venusaur's grass moves.

IMO drought is just as broken as rain, but it just hasn't had enough experience in OU for people to realize it.

 

[Agent123]

Well, Drought is indeed a different story. The abusers aren't as fast, but they are a hell of a lot more powerful. CB darmanitan+Flare Blitz.....Fire is also an excellent attacking type this gen. Half of all physical walls are steel type. steel types don't take fire very well.

It certainly doesn't help that many fire types get Fighting, the best attacking type in the history of pokemon. Even while Jellicent will wall both of those, it doesn't defend from Victini's psychics/thunders and venusaur's grass moves.

IMO drought is just as broken as rain, but it just hasn't had enough experience in OU for people to realize it.

Rain > Drought. The reason is because Politoed is just the better starter. If Drought was put on Heatran I would be singing a different tune.

 

[IcyMan28]

IMO drought is just as broken as rain, but it just hasn't had enough experience in OU for people to realize it.

Then let's get enough experience with it until we find out.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Rain > Drought. The reason is because Politoed is just the better starter. If Drought was put on Heatran I would be singing a different tune.

Drizzle/Drought are not abilities which break the Pokemon baring the ability. A large part of what makes Drizzle/Drought broken, is the fact that it affects the entire Metagame (whether the damage is direct or not). Additionally, the affects of Drizzle/Drought remain throughout the battle whether your starter is alive or not. The only difference is, in weather wars the person needs to keep their weather starter alive the longest in order to ensure weather is on their side, thus almost guaranteeing their win against the opposing weather.

Both Drizzle and drought favour specific Pokemon whilst putting others at a disadvantage. It allows Pokemon 'X' to kill 'Y' and Pokemon 'Y' to live 'Z'. For example Drizzle gives Rotom-W the power to OHKO Conkeldurr. In this case Conkeldurr typing damage is not altered by the affects of rain, however it still falls victim to weather abuse. Yes Drizzle is more broken than Drought. But it doesn't mean that drought isn't broken. In my opinion drought should be banned too, however I don't think it will be just yet because most of Smogon haven't seen its full abusive power. As I've said before, all in due time I guess...

 

[KurashiDragon]

Drizzle/Drought are not abilities which break the Pokemon baring the ability. A large part of what makes Drizzle/Drought broken, is the fact that it affects the entire Metagame (whether the damage is direct or not). Both Drizzle and drought favour specific Pokemon whilst putting others at a disadvantage. It allows Pokemon 'X' to kill 'Y' and Pokemon 'Y' to live 'Z'. For example Drizzle gives Rotom-W the power to OHKO Conkeldurr. In this case Conkeldurr typing damage is not altered by the affects of rain, however it still falls victim to drizzle abuse.
Yes Drizzle is more broken than Drought. But it doesn't mean that drought isn't broken. In my opinion drought should be banned too, however I don't think it will be just yet because most of Smogon haven't seen its full abusive power.

Drought's power is overshadowed by Drizzle. In this case we can't really say if whether or not Drought is broken or not. Drought isn't as strong as Drizzle in any case. If Drizzle is banned, I feel it would be better to keep Drought in OU. Drought has many similararities with Drought but it also has key differences in Risk vs Reward. Grass types get boosts from sun as well but is weakened against Sun further. To abuse Chlorophyll, you need to use Grass pokemon as well as Growth. Many Sun sweepers have weaknesses against Sun. The Risk vs Reward factor may be the factor that makes Sun not Broken.

I'm neutral to the case. I'm really just giving the other side of the argument. Plus I feel we shouldn't make any rash decisions until we have better knowledge of Drought's overall power.

 

[Rosey Oak]

@Kurashi

I just feel that some people are unintentionally underestimating the power of Drought. This is through no fault of their own though, because most people haven't seen Drought at it's best due to the fact that Drizzle and SS where dominant. I'm fairly certain it won't be banned this time round and I am prepared to wait until the time is right. (Not that I have a choice in the matter lol.)

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

What I have problems with you, and other people, is that you say the new weathers damage the metagame too much. What metagame? Your placing your expectations to the 4th gen metagame to this one? Weathers are an iatrical part of the current 5th generation metagame, that being said they cause no problems alone as a play style, if an abuser of them is too much, you ban it, simple enough. This has been the president for all generations, 2nd gen made the metagame much more stally with many new solid wall pokemon released, the 1st gen players could have easily said "These wall pokemon cause too much damage to the metagame we know and love." But they didn't, its a new metagame, time for new styles to shine, don't like it, stay in 4th gen.

 

[Nkululeko]

What I have problems with you, and other people, is that you say the new weathers damage the metagame too much. What metagame? Your placing your expectations to the 4th gen metagame to this one? Weathers are an iatrical part of the current 5th generation metagame, that being said they cause no problems alone as a play style, if an abuser of them is too much, you ban it, simple enough. This has been the president for all generations, 2nd gen made the metagame much more stally with many new solid wall pokemon released, the 1st gen players could have easily said "These wall pokemon cause too much damage to the metagame we know and love." But they didn't, its a new metagame, time for new styles to shine, don't like it, stay in 4th gen.

I partially take offense to this because some of us actually have posted thought out, data backed, logically sound arguments as to how certain weather is broken in this meta and your post has the connotation writes it all off as "placing your expectations to the 4th gen metagame to this one." That's wrong. Drizzle wasn't any part of the 4th gen meta bar Ubers and wanting weather gone for legitimate reasons in the 5th gen meta shouldn't be written off as attempting to recreate a new 4th gen. When people say weather damages the metagame they're talking about this metagame which is largely dominated by weather. The broken-ness of weather (for me it's only Drizzle but still) can be debated and the exchange of ideas is good for the community as a whole as it grants a complete view of the state of the metagame but the refusal to even challenge and idea for it's merit and write it off as the folly of a stubborn player lovesick for the metagame of DPPt is counterproductive to the intent of threads like this.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I partially take offense to this because some of us actually have posted thought out, data backed, logically sound arguments as to how certain weather is broken in this meta and your post has the connotation writes it all off as "placing your expectations to the 4th gen metagame to this one." That's wrong. Drizzle wasn't any part of the 4th gen meta bar Ubers and wanting weather gone for legitimate reasons in the 5th gen meta shouldn't be written off as attempting to recreate a new 4th gen. When people say weather damages the metagame they're talking about this metagame which is largely dominated by weather. The broken-ness of weather (for me it's only Drizzle but still) can be debated and the exchange of ideas is good for the community as a whole as it grants a complete view of the state of the metagame but the refusal to even challenge and idea for it's merit and write it off as the folly of a stubborn player lovesick for the metagame of DPPt is counterproductive to the intent of threads like this.

QFT!

Some people who don't want weather banned come up with the stupidity that is the pro banners want a new 4th gen but that is so far from the truth that such a pathetic argument should be called nothing more than internet mudslinging.

One of the main reasons I think we can never recreate 4th gen is because this is 5th gen. There are new pokemon, moves, abilities and mechanics that completely seperate 5th gen from 4th gen. Even if you got rid of the Weather, you can never make 5th gen another 4th gen.

People come up with these ridiculous excuses for pro-banners because they themselves can come up with a good enough argument as to why weather should stay. Pro Banners come up with well thought out posts to give their arguments because they truly believe weather is broken. People with this excuse should stop playing such childish games and come up with a legitimate reason why weather should stay.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I partially take offense to this because some of us actually have posted thought out, data backed, logically sound arguments as to how certain weather is broken in this meta and your post has the connotation writes it all off as "placing your expectations to the 4th gen metagame to this one." That's wrong. Drizzle wasn't any part of the 4th gen meta bar Ubers and wanting weather gone for legitimate reasons in the 5th gen meta shouldn't be written off as attempting to recreate a new 4th gen. When people say weather damages the metagame they're talking about this metagame which is largely dominated by weather. The broken-ness of weather (for me it's only Drizzle but still) can be debated and the exchange of ideas is good for the community as a whole as it grants a complete view of the state of the metagame but the refusal to even challenge and idea for it's merit and write it off as the folly of a stubborn player lovesick for the metagame of DPPt is counterproductive to the intent of threads like this.

I am sorry if I was coming off an offensive, I was just speaking my mind about what a desirable metagame was, I wasn't trying to place anyone in a group. I actually take offense that your placing me in a group, for further references, lets not place anyone in groups, ok. :)

I do agree that if weather was completely broken, there is some merit to just ban that weather. But I don't think drizzle is at the that point now. Can abusers be broken, yes, but a play style? I should note that weather, more specifically drizzle, doesn't completely change the metagame. All it does it make water moves more effective, and fire moves less, discounting other effects it might have for specific pokemon (thunder, hurricane). Considering that, I don't honestly find it broken.

Lets say next gen they made an permanent trick room ability, could it possibly be broken? I would have to say no, reversing speed might be big, but it certainly doesn't break the metagame. And maybe I liked that metagame, you don't, its completely subjective what your desirable metagame is. But hopefully we could both agree that a certain pokemon, with trick room support, was certainly broken.

Also you seem to have mentioned some facts concerning the brokenness of weather, I am just speaking an ideological point, if you wish to prove your argument with facts, perhaps you should quote them.

 

[tehy]

Can we talk about whether or not reiuniclus should be banned;please?

Drought sucks because no one has chlorophyll and fire type. You either have one or the other;whereas rain was powerful because you had both. Also;Chlorophyll users get beaten down by fire-type attacks;which only get stronger in sun. And solarbeam is worse than thunder;due to charge turns rather than misses and no paralysis chance.

Now;Back to reuniclus;please?

 

[Nonary Game]

I figured this'd be the best place to ask but: What's the purpose of the abstain vote option exactly? Kinda not sure.

And Reuniclus is far from broken. Slow as fuck, so-so typing, Magic Guard is great though. It's got a good bit of power and bulk though. Tyranitar and Scizor still rape it, and the CM set needs to really dig out an opening to set up.

 

[tehy]

Only bandtar can kill it straight up with crunch;and not all of them either. Scizor can maybe;but u-turn isn't strong enough and bug bite is uncommon. Besides;all of its counters except roosting scizor can be outstalled;with the sole exception of awesome spiritomb;which i currently use.

Trick is the only other option;but it's kind of iffy. if you mis-trick it's gg.

 

[Nkululeko]

What I have problems with you, and other people, is that you say the new weathers damage the metagame too much. What metagame? Your placing your expectations to the 4th gen metagame to this one? Weathers are an iatrical part of the current 5th generation metagame, that being said they cause no problems alone as a play style, if an abuser of them is too much, you ban it, simple enough. This has been the president for all generations, 2nd gen made the metagame much more stally with many new solid wall pokemon released, the 1st gen players could have easily said "These wall pokemon cause too much damage to the metagame we know and love." But they didn't, its a new metagame, time for new styles to shine, don't like it, stay in 4th gen.

I am sorry if I was coming off an offensive, I was just speaking my mind about what a desirable metagame was, I wasn't trying to place anyone in a group. I actually take offense that your placing me in a group, for further references, lets not place anyone in groups, ok. :)

If you don't like being identified by your actions online then don't do them, but if you choose to respond to suggestions and other people's reasoning by arguing that people are following an alterior motive (creating another gen 4) then you're echoing the complaint of a recognizable "group," which you did. And you didn't come off offensive, just aggressive, and you didn't mention a desirable metagame outside of implying it would include minimal banning. We agree in that aspect as banning a single weather(I'll use Drizzle as an example) could prevent the needless banning of multiple(Swift Swimmers and Manaphy in this case).

I do agree that if weather was completely broken, there is some merit to just ban that weather. But I don't think drizzle is at the that point now. Can abusers be broken, yes, but a play style? I should note that weather, more specifically drizzle, doesn't completely change the metagame. All it does it make water moves more effective, and fire moves less, discounting other effects it might have for specific pokemon (thunder, hurricane). Considering that, I don't honestly find it broken.

General consensus says that the Rain playstyle was broken before and saved with the implementation of the Aldaron Proposal. Playstyles can be broken if the support is strong enough and a number of us are believing that Drizzle is getting there. And the way you present Drizzle's effects it seems minimal and tbh you're downplaying them. "It makes water moves more effective," doesn't mention any definite amount of strength added or the fact that water pokemon with attacking stats that on paper seem lackluster can wreck pokes in OU with Drizzle boosts (see Specs Politoed). By not mentioning the actual applications of Drizzle's effects, (like completely removing a weakness for many already bulky steel types) you are downplaying them and essentially ignoring them.

By that logic, Choice Specs only boosts Sp Atk. All it does is boost one stat. It sounds alright, until you mention pokemon with really high Sp Atk, like Latios.

Lets say next gen they made an permanent trick room ability, could it possibly be broken?

That would be 6th gen. We are talking about a tiering decision in 5th gen and you seem to be the only one bringing up other metagames. To answer your question, yes. There would be absolutely no way of countering it outside of running trick room yourself. See DPPt Garchomp.

I would have to say no, reversing speed might be big, but it certainly doesn't break the metagame. And maybe I liked that metagame, you don't, its completely subjective what your desirable metagame is. But hopefully we could both agree that a certain pokemon, with trick room support, was certainly broken.

In the case of weather, the issue arises that multiple pokemon can be overpowered by a single pokemon's support.

Also you seem to have mentioned some facts concerning the brokenness of weather, I am just speaking an ideological point, if you wish to prove your argument with facts, perhaps you should quote them.

Edit: Here is my post using facts, calcs, and a logic to present my case for why Drizzle, in the context of Politoed, is broken IMO. The ability is broken but since no other pokemon get it in OU at the current time I would prefer seeing Politoed banned but alas here it is:

I'm usually not for banning but I think that DrizzleToed might be broken:


1) Stats alone, Politoed may look pretty UU but Drizzle boosts it's special attack when using its STAB just by switching in. Given the fact that many Toeds run Choice Specs and have Water Type moves(usually Hydro Pump or Surf) it technically has a triple STAB, which undermines the fact that Max Sp Atk Poliotoed only hits 306. Factor in STAB, Rain Boost, and Specs, it gets kinda ridiculous for a support 'mon:

Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/252 Reuniclus: 101.9% - 120.1%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/216 Scizor: 103.2% - 121.5%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/4 Blissey: 40.5% - 47.9%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 4/0 Garchomp: 120.1% - 141.3%

Keep in mind that's coming from a pokemon with base 90 sp atk. That means that Politoed serves as an example that Rain and a Choice Item are suspect for being overpowered. However, let's not forget that there are other weather starters who get rid of Rain when they switch in. I got these calcs of the Politoed analysis, and Abomasnow wasn't there, bear with me.

Hydro Pump (sun) vs. 0/4 Ninetales: 87.8% - 103.1%
Hydro Pump (sandstorm) vs. 252/252+ Tyranitar: 59.9% - 71.3%

Ninetails can't switch in on Politoed or it gets wrecked unless there aren't any entry hazards. Tyranitar also has to be wary in switching in with entry hazard support, not saying it's a OHKO, but knocking a Tyranitar well under 50% is nothing to scoff at.

I hope that at this point I've established that DrizzleToed is powerful in its own right. However, the best part of Politoed is its support capabilities.

2) DrizzleToed boosts it's teammates offensive prowess to such a degree that it was nerfed. Kingdra, Kabutops, Gorebyss/Huntail, were found so broken with Politoed's nearly effortless support that a restraining order was enacted against them. If that wasn't a big enough warning sign...

3) Politoed is a very diverse supporting pokemon. However, those diverse boosts are done just by switching in. When Politoed switches in:
-About 30 pokemon gain recovery equivalent to or more than leftovers just by Drizzle being set up(Toxicroak being the more than with Dry Skin)
-The power of Fire type moves is halved
-The power of Water type moves is raised by 50% (which by itself equals the power of a Choice Item/STAB on all water type attacks)
-Moonlight/Synthesis/Morning Sun recovery is lowered to 25%.
-Thunder/Hurricane gain perfect accuracy. As if Tornadus, Thundurus, and Dragonite weren't good enough already DrizzleToed makes pokemon powerful across the board:

Dragonite/Tornadus/Thundurus were mentioned above but they get a perfectly accurate, STAB, 120 Base Power attacks coming off Base 100 and 125 Sp. Atk respectively. Gyarados's base 125 attack gets a double STAB Waterfall, Rotom gets STAB Hydro Pump boosted, Steel Types (if they weren't good enough already) essentially lose a weakness making Jirachi, Metagross, Ferrathorn, etc stronger on the special defensive side. Water type sweepers are inherently more powerful and let's not forget CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet (bye, bye Excadrill).

In conclusion, I think Politoed is too powerful for OU not only for its own strength, but for the ability it has to boost the overall effectiveness of its teammates and nerfs its opponents.

 

[Machi]

Only bandtar can kill it straight up with crunch;and not all of them either. Scizor can maybe;but u-turn isn't strong enough and bug bite is uncommon. Besides;all of its counters except roosting scizor can be outstalled;with the sole exception of awesome spiritomb;which i currently use.

Trick is the only other option;but it's kind of iffy. if you mis-trick it's gg.

Considering the accuracy of Focus Blast =/ I highly doubt its a RELIABLE way of dealing with Scizor. Also given that Reiunculus is usually at the last silver of his life after a U-turn, bug bite, crunch (with a boost ranging from most likely a CB or LO) and that they all outspeed that pretty much keeps Reinculus in check. Nonary game pretty much nailed it in saying he really does need to have the conditions just right to work. And besides Reiunculus has had TONS of discussions already you can just leaf through the archive unless you have something new to bring to the table - highly doubtful given that the bans for far haven't exactly changed the way he's played or made him centralizing etc - then I don't see much reason to bring him up again.

 

[tehy]

Not really machi;usually more like 40 percent.

As for uturns;you have to leave after using it;so he recovers. Entry hazards mean he wins before you do. Bug bite works but is very rare;and is still outstallable.

The problem with reuniclus is very simple. Magic guard means you can't outstall it;and most stuff it can just recover off and switch out to teammates. Eventually everything that can do enough damage to it dies;while it doesn't. And it'll get scizor eventually.

 

[Nkululeko]

Not really machi;usually more like 40 percent.

As for uturns;you have to leave after using it;so he recovers. Entry hazards mean he wins before you do. Bug bite works but is very rare;and is still outstallable.

The problem with reuniclus is very simple. Magic guard means you can't outstall it;and most stuff it can just recover off and switch out to teammates. Eventually everything that can do enough damage to it dies;while it doesn't. And it'll get scizor eventually.

Scizor might not be the hardest counter to Reuniclus, but it does work. Besides, Reuniclus' Magi Guard isn't an issue when the pokemon who can just KO it appear more often (not OHKOes but he has a healthy number of checks). Don't forget Ttar. He's in more than 1 in every 5 battles. Between his STAB crunches, Scizor's Bug STABs, and the rising usage of Gengar and even Conkeldurr, Reuniclus doesn't seem as broken as it used to now that pokemon who counter it have risen in usage.

 

[ginganinja]

nitpicking but

And Reuniclus is far from broken. Slow as fuck, so-so typing, Magic Guard is great though. It's got a good bit of power and bulk though. Tyranitar and Scizor still rape it, and the CM set needs to really dig out an opening to set up.

Tyranitar does not "rape" Reuniclus. For starters it is risky to switch in since Focus Blast does a fuckload and a smart player might throw out a Focus Blast turn 1 hoping to catch that tar switching in. Tyranitar also cannot OHKO CM Variants either while TR versions laugh as Tyranitar switchs in and straight up OHKO with Focus Blast.

The problem with reuniclus is very simple. Magic guard means you can't outstall it;and most stuff it can just recover off and switch out to teammates. Eventually everything that can do enough damage to it dies;while it doesn't. And it'll get scizor eventually.

Scizor does check Reuniclus very well. I don't think U-Turn OHKOs but it does more damage than Recover can heal. Specially Defensive Scizors just don't gave a fuck and can SD and Roost off damage when Focus Blast does around 33% then hit back with Bug Bite. It beats TR Varients as well as Bug Bite + Bullet Punch KOs most versions. I am not denying Reuniclus can be a bitch but its not uncountable.

 

[Machi]

Don't forget Ttar. He's in more than 1 in every 5 battles. Between his STAB crunches, Scizor's Bug STABs, and the rising usage of Gengar and even Conkeldurr, Reuniclus doesn't seem as broken as it used to now that pokemon who counter it have risen in usage.

Too lazy to leaf through archives but pretty sure Reiunculus is pretty easily 2 OHKOed he may recover but he'll end up facing something that would hit him hard - and looking at the calcs listed above it doesn't even need to be SE STAB attacks when you've got other hard hitters in the metagame. Besides its quite obvious that outstalling him is out of the question given his ability hence you'd need to attack him straight on - on the other hand the trick room version is pretty vulnerable to stall but ruins offense well but that isn't as common so~. Again I don't really see anything new about Reinculus being discussed here - he ruins stall but as people have said time and time again you can't exactly play all out stall in this gen - and the bans so far as I said really hasn't made him stand out as a threat, as it is with other mons who are new considerations and merit more discussion i.e. Thundurus.

Edit: Tyranitar probably wouldn't switch in most of the time but would most likely come in to revenge and thanks to Focus Blast accuracy it is worth the gamble (that and I'm pretty unlucky at times with Focus Blast so I do apologize if I don't have enthusiasm over such a coverage move given how many times I've cursed so badly after seeing it miss at crucial times XD but I think its still pretty safe to be wary of its accuracy). And by the end he'll easily be in OHKO range - and that's being generous since chances are the mon that Reinculus took down would probably have damaged him since its not exactly hard to outpace him.

 

[AJC]

I figured this'd be the best place to ask but: What's the purpose of the abstain vote option exactly? Kinda not sure.

the abstain vote is a vote that basically says "i don't know or don't want to know enough about this subject to decide it's fate" effectively a i'm not voting on this vote.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Basically, Excadrill forces you to run Skarm, Gliscor, Weather other than Sand, Azumarill, or Conkeldurr. Or you lose. Simple as that.

Virizion. And you talk as if all of those were used only because of Drill...

 

[UltiMario]

Can't take +2 Return, can it?

Edit: Calced... with some spikes support it's taken care of. Non-return drill are sort of screwed though.

So it's a check.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Or even, a counter to non-Return sets ~__~

This is false. Choice Specs is the equivalent of a +1 boost to SpA. Draco Meteor leaves it at -1 aka x0.66.

No, Specs is a 1.5x boost, not a +1. The other guy is right.

 

[UltiMario]

And how are you supposed to know what it's running?

That's why its a check. If it's running return, it loses, if it's not, it wins. That's sort of what a check is.

 

[badabing]

"what raik said"

Virizion. And you talk as if all of those were used only because of Drill...

virizion is pretty tentative, but i can add tangrowth, slowbro, excadrill, specs vacuum wave, various balloon users ex. Terak (that can SET UP on it outside of a flinch), max def ferrothorn, golduck, quag and rotom-w to some extent... you get the idea. these pokes aren't random niches either, except maybe golduck.