• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

Status
Not open for further replies.
You don't have to pack a counter for Excadrill if you don't want to. Bloo and I have built successfull teams that didn't have a dedicated Excadrill counter. If you don't pack a specific Excadrill counter you just have to make sure to be able to revenge kill it and\or to not give it the opportunity to set up. Of course, if we decide to ban drizzle\drought then countering Excadrill will become more and more diffcult, but that's another story.

This leads to a very interesting observation. Which is that we cannot ban Drought/Drizzle without also banning Garchomp/Excadrill and vice versa. If only one of the two pairs gets banned, then the other pair will be harder to defeat, making it much more broken.

Thus I urge whoever ends up voting to NOT ban only Garchomp and Excadrill. Unless you want a metagame dominated by rain and its brokenness.
 
I was about to make a post defending shrang's words about bronzong but then I saw that no one was defending him. Yeah, bronzong is pretty bad, and has situational uses comparable to that of pokemon such as lanturn.

The reason as to why I believed weather should stay was simply because I believed it to be a part of the new metagame. Whenever I made a team, weather team or non weather team, I simply took into consideration what I had to deal with and prepared to play around it. Instead of packing counters on every single team I made, I just stuck to having a direct counter to whatever bothered me the most. If I had a team that was weak to sun, I would often pack a balloon heatran or a kingdra. A team that was weak to rain? Sunny Day Ferrothorn (which is a legitimate tactic), Sunny Day Zapdos with Heat Wave, Virizion, etc. A te4am that was weak to sand but didn't have to worry about the other weathers? Bulk Up Gallade and probably something like CB Escavelier that could revenge kill latios.

however, there have been posts accurately detailing the power of rain teams even without swift swim, and I can understand why facing them would be problematic. I'm still against the idea of banning a strategy or a playstyle, but I can at least see why such a thing would be preferred to banning the likes of Thunderos and all of the other popular rain abusers (the hell happened to Sharpedo?)

I do not share this sentiment for any other weather though. Usinhg UU of all things to show how broken sun is in OU just doesn't make any sense. Even if sun hasn't been given a chance to shine, that doesn't mean you can simply stop at showing calculations in an attempt to prove its overpowering abilities.

Offensive Venusaur, for example, is stopped by the likes of balloon Heatran, Blissey, Balloon Chandelure, bulky latias, Eviolite Chansey, and a few others. He is revenged by Mamoswine, must dedicate a moveslot to HP Fire or else he is stopped by everything, needs both a life orb AND SR in order to muscle through things, and can push himself in revenge range since he can't use giga drain. His most powerful physical attack is the base 80 seed bomb, since Power whip is an egg move. And currently, his most powerful special attacks are petal dance and solarbeam. Petal Dance is a joke and solarbeam is only usable against teams without weather...or bug, steel, poison, fire, grass, or flying types. Add in the fact that he has to use sludge bomb of all things for coverage.
 
I was about to make a post defending shrang's words about bronzong but then I saw that no one was defending him. Yeah, bronzong is pretty bad, and has situational uses comparable to that of pokemon such as lanturn.

The reason as to why I believed weather should stay was simply because I believed it to be a part of the new metagame. Whenever I made a team, weather team or non weather team, I simply took into consideration what I had to deal with and prepared to play around it. Instead of packing counters on every single team I made, I just stuck to having a direct counter to whatever bothered me the most. If I had a team that was weak to sun, I would often pack a balloon heatran or a kingdra. A team that was weak to rain? Sunny Day Ferrothorn (which is a legitimate tactic), Sunny Day Zapdos with Heat Wave, Virizion, etc. A te4am that was weak to sand but didn't have to worry about the other weathers? Bulk Up Gallade and probably something like CB Escavelier that could revenge kill latios.

however, there have been posts accurately detailing the power of rain teams even without swift swim, and I can understand why facing them would be problematic. I'm still against the idea of banning a strategy or a playstyle, but I can at least see why such a thing would be preferred to banning the likes of Thunderos and all of the other popular rain abusers (the hell happened to Sharpedo?)

I do not share this sentiment for any other weather though. Usinhg UU of all things to show how broken sun is in OU just doesn't make any sense. Even if sun hasn't been given a chance to shine, that doesn't mean you can simply stop at showing calculations in an attempt to prove its overpowering abilities.

Offensive Venusaur, for example, is stopped by the likes of balloon Heatran, Blissey, Balloon Chandelure, bulky latias, Eviolite Chansey, and a few others. He is revenged by Mamoswine, must dedicate a moveslot to HP Fire or else he is stopped by everything, needs both a life orb AND SR in order to muscle through things, and can push himself in revenge range since he can't use giga drain. His most powerful physical attack is the base 80 seed bomb, since Power whip is an egg move. And currently, his most powerful special attacks are petal dance and solarbeam. Petal Dance is a joke and solarbeam is only usable against teams without weather...or bug, steel, poison, fire, grass, or flying types. Add in the fact that he has to use sludge bomb of all things for coverage.

I have to completely agree with this. Sun its indeed a stopable force, fact is if you run your own fire type, most sun types are just screwed at that point. It has real counters that can all be stopped. Even if rain ceased to be, I don't think sun would be amazingly better, and then broken.
 
Well, we'll have to wait and see, really. Theorymon can only go so far afterall (people calimed hail would break UU once sun was gone).

When it comes to fire pokemon, I can only see sun getting away with Volcorona, Infernape, Heatran, and maybe Victini and or Arcanine. Each one of those pokemon on its own has their own list of problem. Sun boosted NP LO Infernape is stopped by the likes of Gyarados and most dragons without hp ice (and if running hp ice, prepare to get forced out by Excadrill if you aren't running vacuum wave.) Like victreebel, he's made of paper. Unlike Victreebel, his typing isn't all that great for taking priority hits.

Even Volcorona, who is a monster in sunlight, has a long list of problems. There are often many threats that you will need to get rid of before attempting a volcorona sweep, simply because Volcorona's coverage leaves a lot to be desired. The offensive sets have to choose between hp rock, hp electric, or...psychic...

As most sun teams are also hyper offensive, they tend to be free wins for trick room teams too.
 
I have to completely agree with this. Sun its indeed a stopable force, fact is if you run your own fire type, most sun types are just screwed at that point. It has real counters that can all be stopped. Even if rain ceased to be, I don't think sun would be amazingly better, and then broken.

You are completely missing the point. Groudon is stoppable in OU. Does that make him unbannable? No. The point is that a team without weather has an automatic HUGE advantage over teams that don't have weather. This is not something we want in out metagame. There are no counters needed for non-weather teams. Rain teams require counters. Therefore, they must be banned.

Think about it this way: banning rain won't destroy a playstyle; in fact, it will encourage a playstyle: the classic no-weather team.
 
...There are no cvounters needed for non weather teams? If a non weather team uses a Ho-oh, then you won't need any counters for it?

For the record, caterpie is indeed a stoppable force in OU as well. Very stoppable in fact. But does that make him unbannable? No. I do not think the entirety of OU sunlight deserves to be compared to an uber pokemon with base 150 and 140 stats.

No one is saying that sunlight doesn't offer up any immeadiate advantages for its users. I'm just saying that those advantages do not break sun. For the record, snow warning gives you an automatic advantage over your opponent's non weather team too. Snow Cloak and Ice Body, residual damage every turn, and 100% accurate base 120 STAB attacks with no downside.
 
Anything is stopable, thats not a point though. But I think sun rain and even sand have more then just a few counters out there for you to use. Heck I fine stall teams harder to deal with then weather, but stall teams aren't that popular in today's metagame, so I have made the choice not the deal with them. So should stall be banned? Your making the choice to not deal with todays most popular playstyle, thats not the metagame's fault, its yours.

And just becaue you think thats the perferable playstyle for you, that doesn't mean its the playstyle made for this metagame that was created by nintendo.
 
@alphatron
I meant that there is no need for counters for the strategy as a whole. Please think logically before making a reply next time.

About the Caterpie thing, I was just pointing out the flaws in his logic. More is needed than just the observation that it is "stoppable". Logic is 100% objective. If that logic cannot be applied to Groudon, it cannot be applied to anything. Once you understand this, then come back to this thread.

@Scarfwynaut
It doesn't matter how many counters there are for rain. Non-weather needs no counters. And there is only 1 good counter for rain: Ferrothorn. Nothing else in the game can take double STAB Hydro Pumps and Thunders.

As for the stall thing, there are plenty of surefire ways to defeat the playstyle. And it has no clear advantages over an offensive team once the pros and cons have been weighted. Therefore, it is perfectly balanced.

Finally, I never said that non-weather is preferable. I simply said that banning Drizzle isn't removing options for players to use. It is instead offering many, many new options to use rather than Politoed/Rotom-W/Toxicroak in the form of non-weather. It will only create a more healthy, balanced, and diverse metagame. People won't be deterred from using Typhlosion or Heatran just because rain exists. That, I think you can agree with, is fair.
 
It is instead offering many, many new options to use rather than Politoed/Rotom-W/Toxicroak in the form of non-weather. It will only create a more healthy, balanced, and diverse metagame.

Why couldn't you just use both "non-weather" pokemon and Politoed/Rotom-W/Toxicroak at the same time on a team?
 
Just because it can be stopped doesn't mean it isn't broken. We all kinow this. How easy it is to stop is another story entirely. I'm saying that OU sun does not compare to what is currently in ubers and I believe that I've given some reasons as to why.

To use a better example than Ho-oh, the smashpass strategy is a strategy that many people believe to be broken, has counters, and is used mainly by non weather teams. Even then, weather teams as a whole do not need specific counters. Counters were alweays about handling the pokemon on the team itself. You don't swit down and think, "Hmm, now how do I counter a sand team?"

Rain is a different case thanks to the numerous VIABLE abusers, especially back in round two where you had to fight about three swift swimmers a team.

Edit: If more is needed than just saying that it can be stopped, several people have already posted about what stops sun's abusers in OU.
 
(the hell happened to Sharpedo?)

Conkeldurr
Inability to beat Ferrothorn [Admittedly, most Waters have this issue]
Gyarados
Inability to boost attack outside of LO or CB
Basically dies to any priority
Virizion
Lack of any real movepool
Predictabilty
Gyarados
Lack of a physical STAB above Base 80
Fails to OHKO a lot of things, and dies to even resisted hits.
Can be crippled by things like Jirachi or Prankster T-Waves
Should I go on?

He's a beast in UU and RU, but OU is too bulky and Priority-Addled for Sharpedo

---

As for Smashpass, it's not rocket science to beat it.

1: Have something with the following:
Taunt
Encore [Must be slower than the Smashpasser: IE: Mr.Wobbles; or, be Whimsicott/Cottonee]
Haze
Circle Throw
Dragon Tail
Whirlwind
Roar
Perish Song
Trick Room

---
Backup Plan:
Toxic
Will-O-Wisp
Thunder Wave
Sleep-Induceing Move

Must be used as the Receiver switches in, or by a Prankster afterwards, because they'll outspeed and KO everything.
----
Backup Plan 2:
Unaware Quagsire if you don't feel like running any of the above for some unknown reason.

---

Most of these moves are more than viable, with the exception being Circle Throw, only because the users are not OU viable.

2: If you see a Smashpasser on the other team, in the lead position, switch your user of said moves to lead position. 99% of Smashpass players run a one-track mind, and do not have a backup plan.

3: Use said move to stop Smashpass at appropriate time.

If you're playing a half decent Smashpass player, of course, they may have a Plan B, and they may not lead with the Smashpasser, but instead something like Deo-D to set up hazards to aid the sweep, or Duel Screen.

This does not prevent the above moves working, however, it does make Taunt and Enore pointless unless you are using a Prankster, as you can switch in on Shell Smash, and then Phaze/Haze/Perish Song.


4: Watch Most Smashpassers Forfeit.
 
Just because it can be stopped doesn't mean it isn't broken. We all kinow this. How easy it is to stop is another story entirely. I'm saying that OU sun does not compare to what is currently in ubers and I believe that I've given some reasons as to why.

What are you talking about? I never said that sun was as good as ubers. What I meant by my reference to Groudon is that his logic was flawed Obviously Groudon is way better than any sun abuser.
 
Finally, I never said that non-weather is preferable. I simply said that banning Drizzle isn't removing options for players to use. It is instead offering many, many new options to use rather than Politoed/Rotom-W/Toxicroak in the form of non-weather. It will only create a more healthy, balanced, and diverse metagame. People won't be deterred from using Typhlosion or Heatran just because rain exists. That, I think you can agree with, is fair.

Wow, what? Forcing people to use inferior options/strategies just for the sake of diversity isn't healthy for the metagame at all.
 
Finally, I never said that non-weather is preferable. I simply said that banning Drizzle isn't removing options for players to use. It is instead offering many, many new options to use rather than Politoed/Rotom-W/Toxicroak in the form of non-weather. It will only create a more healthy, balanced, and diverse metagame. People won't be deterred from using Typhlosion or Heatran just because rain exists. That, I think you can agree with, is fair.

Wow, what? Forcing people to use inferior options/strategies just for the sake of diversity isn't healthy for the metagame at all.

I don't think he meant Typhlosion seriously but anyway if all options/strategies were inferior to Drizzle, then shouldn't we ban Drizzle for being too good?
 
I don't think he meant Typhlosion seriously but anyway if all options/strategies were inferior to Drizzle, then shouldn't we ban Drizzle for being too good?

No, I didn't meant the Typhlosion part.

Well, every suspect in this round are examples of things that are "too good". But are they broken?

If Politoed/Rotom/Toxicroak cores works so well (it doesn't), it's only natural that people abuses them, like Heatran/Latios/Ferro. Banning one key player (Politoed in this case) just for the sake of wanting to see different team cores isn't the right way to act, in my opinion. Even if we banned every kind of auto-weather and "too good" Pokes top teams would look the same, just like RS and GS.
 
The reason why people want drizzle banned has almost nothing to do with diversity.

Drizzle shouldn't be kept because it makes such and such OU, in the same way it shouldn't be banned for it either.

Now I don't feel like repeating myself, so I'll quote one of my past arguments for banning drizzle.



"Nominating Drizzle/Drought for the following reasons.

(Side Note: Additionally, nominating 'Excadrill and Garchomp' as I feel that these are the only Pokemon that break Sand Stream.)


It is my belief that the enjoyable ‘old style of battling’ has been sadly lost and replaced with the tiresome never-ending weather war. Opponents desperately compete with each other for weather control because without it they will almost surely lose. Let’s face it, the Metagame is now solely based on who can keep their weather starter alive the longest so they can sweep the other players team. (Or what team can I make to counter the most weather abusers.) Honestly, I do not feel that this version of battling is even enjoyable or in my opinion more skilful than the previous way we battled. Before we had to outsmart the other player through our use of skill and tactics, now through the loss of one or two Pokemon (whether it be a weather starter or the main counter for weather sweeper ‘X’) we can easily lose the game. At this point you look back and think, is there any way I could have possibly won from point ‘Y’ if I hadn’t done this, or hadn’t done that, but more so we find ourselves thinking that it would have be literally impossible to win from this point. This is not because the opponent superiorly outsmarted us; it is simply due to the fact that based on our team we couldn’t have possibly won. The threat of weather has just become too strong in my opinion. We shouldn’t be doomed to lose a battle (so early in the game) just because of the ‘death’ of one or two members of our team. Yes, they are a few scenarios in non-weather teams where this occurs, but with weather it occurs too often. Which I feel proves that something is wrong with the Metagame.

Now in the case of Non-weather versus weather:

In the last generation of Pokemon, Sweepers could be handled in two ways, either through the use of counters or revenge killers. However, choice scarf sweepers are no longer able to outrun the main OU sweepers in this generation, as in comparison to their 1.5 speed boost, weather sweepers get a greatly superior times 2 speed boost. (Side Note: choice scarf sweepers are balanced by the fact that they can only stick to one move, where as weather sweepers can freely switch between all moves). This means that we can only rely on the use of counters to stop heavy sweepers in their tracks.

On this note, non-weather teams have to use counters for each of the weather abusers. This therefore only leaves a small space of one or two more Pokemon, when trying to counter all three at the same time. Yes I know these ‘weather checkers have other purposes’ but considering that weather checks for each separate weather usually fails against another weather, means that certain slots on the team are useless majority of the time.


Choice Scarf is not the only way to revenge-kill. There are also the kind of check which can take a single hit, then KO back. There are also the kind of check which uses priority to bring down a threat.

Not to mention that in OU, there is 1 Chlorophyll Pokemon (Venusaur) and 1 Sand Rush Pokemon (Excadrill). So it's unreal to imply that most weather sweepers are getting their speed doubled.
I hadn’t meant to make it sound like all weather sweepers have access to the double speed boost, but you’re right it did sound like I was implying that. However, on that note I still regard other weather sweepers (with no speed boost) as being difficult to deal with (aside from the use of specific counters to them) due to the massive pros and cons of weather.

In the case where a check can take a single hit and then OHKO it back, this would mean that the Pokemon would A. have to be faster and B. have enough HP left to live the attack on the switch in (if you didn’t want to sacrifice a Pokemon).

For example:
In scenario one -

Darmanitan – Adamant (sheer force – LO) Flare Blitz in sun

Max hp/def bold Suicune:
416 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (304 Base Power): 188 - 222 (46.53% - 54.95%)

Suicune can be switched in to take the hit however it is slower and on average it will be OHKO’d on the second hit.

In scenario two –

(Latios, Hydreigon and Haxorus are all OHKO’d)

Darmanitan (sheer force – LO) Flare Blitz in sun

Sweeper Garchomp:
416 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (304 Base Power): 300 - 354 (84.03% - 99.16%)

Yes in this case, Garchomp is faster and can take one hit. However, the large majority of even resistant sweepers will not meet both of the requirements. And will therefore have to rely on a safe switch by sacrificing a team mate.


In the case of a priority check:

Aqua Jet – For some reason I do not see Azumarill in OU, it is a check (to specific weather abusers), but how often do people use it.

Extreme Speed – I don’t see Dragonite using this move anymore, and I don’t see any Lucario’s in OU either.

Vaccume Wave – I don’t see this move in OU.

Mach Punch (Conkeldurr and Breeloom) – Conkeldurr fails to OHKO Excadrill full stop. Additionally, (does not include SR) Breeloom on average fails to OHKO Excadrill, however Excadrill on Average will OHKO it back with Return. Furthermore, weather abusers such as Vensaur/ Starmie/ Dragonite/ Thunderus/ Tornados resist Mach Punch, whilst the large majority of others who do not resist are not OHKO’d anyway.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to my point that weather allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’.

(Looking at OU)

Stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as this, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to this heavy SR damage.) For the remaining types the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, majorly affects the damage done to the majority of Pokemon. It has become too powerful in the sense that it completely changes the Metagame to favour specific Pokemon and put others at a major disadvantage. Such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.


You say that Stealth Rock only affects certain Pokemon very much. The same applies to weather. Any Pokemon which is not weak to Fire gets no defensive benefit from Rain. Any Pokemon which doesn't use Fire moves isn't hampered by Rain. I could say that weather only affects certain things to a significant degree, just like Stealth Rock only affects certain things that much.

Through my argument I was trying to show how stealth Rocks does not greatly affect the majority of OU because the only pure typing to be hit hard and used in OU is flying. Weather on the other hand affects everything in OU. Yes the level of degree varies however the damage inflicted is of a much greater level than SR.

Pokemon which are not purely affected by the typing advantages and disadvantages of rain/sun are still victims of weather abuse. For example drizzle allows Rotom-W to OHKO Conkeldurr with hydro pump. In this case Conkeldurr’s typing damage is not altered, but none the less it is still a victim of weather abuse.

Anyway before I go off in a tangent, my point is that Conkeldurr and other specific Pokemon get no boost what so ever by rain, whilst other Pokemon are give some sort of statistical advantage, and even though Conkeldurr and others are not purely affected by rain, they still are victimised by those that do.

Additionally, as I have already stated such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.


In conclusion, the importance of weather has far surpassed what used to be acceptable, and is thus creating an unbalanced game where non-weather things aren't important and get overwhelmed unless they counter specific weather threats."
 
No, I didn't meant the Typhlosion part.

Well, every suspect in this round are examples of things that are "too good". But are they broken?

If Politoed/Rotom/Toxicroak cores works so well (it doesn't), it's only natural that people abuses them, like Heatran/Latios/Ferro. Banning one key player (Politoed in this case) just for the sake of wanting to see different team cores isn't the right way to act, in my opinion. Even if we banned every kind of auto-weather and "too good" Pokes top teams would look the same, just like RS and GS.

it's not just these "too good" pokemon that is going on here. Every rain team is beginning to look the same, which means they are all using the same cores, causing mass over-centralization. Think back to just before latias was banned in 4th gen. Every team was beginning to have a 3 Dragon/3 Steel type format-that's exactly what's happening here.
 
No, I didn't meant the Typhlosion part.

Well, every suspect in this round are examples of things that are "too good". But are they broken?

If Politoed/Rotom/Toxicroak cores works so well (it doesn't), it's only natural that people abuses them, like Heatran/Latios/Ferro. Banning one key player (Politoed in this case) just for the sake of wanting to see different team cores isn't the right way to act, in my opinion. Even if we banned every kind of auto-weather and "too good" Pokes top teams would look the same, just like RS and GS.

The bolded part is really what I disagree with. I don't support banning due to centralization so the desire to see different team cores is irrelevant to me. The majority of people who want Drizzle banned want to do so because we believe that Drizzle as an ability has a large and overpowered support pool, not because we don't like facing Toaxicroak. And if we banned every auto-weather(which I doubt because we've seen the hoops we've jumped through to keep Drizzle) teams wouldn't all be the same, it would just be based around pokemon who are good without switching in essentially at +1 when using Water/Fire attacks. And for the record, if a pokemon is "too good" for the tier, then it should be banned. That is the simplest definition of the term broken.
 
By the way things are now, looks like the arguments from the ones that want Drizzle banned is like "weather wars suck, we should just stick with sand".

I really see not a single reason for Drizzle to have better effects than Sandstream.

Double STAB - between weak Waterfall or shaky Hydro Pump coming off sucky offensive prowess (the best offensive water types have Swift Swim/are ridiculously slow so they can't use their "awesome double STAB" at all) or Sand Strengh + Edgequake, STAB Earthquake from 135 base ATK or just about anything you can think of one will stick with the later.

100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes: not worth the risk of having the weather changed at the wrong time and missing. And Kyurem has been firing ridiculously powerful STABs with Freeze being much better than paralyze or confusion and nobody complained.

Half damage from fire moves: works both ways. The rain team won't be able to use fire moves at all. When facing stuff like Jirachi who isn't weak to Fightning like Ferrothorn and have awesome Sp. def unlike Scizor this is hell.


Have some of you ever thinked why Rain teams always use the same members over and over again while Sand and even Sun teams are more varied? Because there are few Pokemon that can reliably abuse the rain.

It's not that they're "too good" or "broken"; it's because they're the only ones that works. Toxicroak is the only single Pokemon I can think of that 100% abuses the Rain without any drawback.
Most of the "rain abusers" comes with a horrible Grass, Electric and (gasp!) Water weakness. You can run Rotom-W in any team and troll Drizzle users as even resisted Hydro Pumps will take a chunk thanks to Drizzle. It's not easy to abuse rain.

Sand, on the other hand.... has Excadrill any drawbacks in the Sand? Scizor? Landorus? Lucario? Terrakion?

All of them just get advantages in the sand. 6% health by turn, Ability, Sp. Def boost.

There's a reason Tyranitar's the 1# top used Pokemon in the game. It's much easier to abuse sand than any other weather. Not to mention two types that are immune to Sandstorm damage's also resistant do the most destructive move in the game: Stealth Rock.

That's why you always see the same members in Rain teams. They're limited. They're hard to use. If they was remotely broken Politoed would fit into every team and rank in the top five just like Tyranitar does. But it doesn't.

If we ban Drizzle we'll go back to the steel era that DP was. It'll reign supreme again as the best type in the game, be Excadrill uber or not. Ninetales? Stands no chance against any common member of a Sandstorm team member. Sun teams are about setting up sun before they have the chance to lay down SR and nuking the fuck out of whatever they send in - they don't survive long enough, if you take LO recoil + Sandstream damage + Flare Blitz/Speed Slow (V-Create) + Stealth Rock, well, sun teams are screwed should sand dominate.
 
100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes: not worth the risk of having the weather changed at the wrong time and missing. And Kyurem has been firing ridiculously powerful STABs with Freeze being much better than paralyze or confusion and nobody complained.
Nobody is complaining because 1:Kyurem has a terrible typing, is very slow, and has a weakness to every hazard, 2: Kyurem doesn't have a 30% chance to freeze, 3:It's definitely worth the risk of tyranitar switching in and changing the weather. In the small chance that you miss, you can always change to a Focus blast if you're using thundurus or Hydro pump if rotom

Have some of you ever thinked why Rain teams always use the same members over and over again while Sand and even Sun teams are more varied? Because there are few Pokemon that can reliably abuse the rain.
Rain teams use the same pokemon over and over again because there are MULTIPLE pokemon which abuse the rain reliably, and changing these pokemon on your team puts you at a disadvantage. Sand teams are varied because the only real abusers are Excadrill, Landorus (which isn't used much anymore), Gliscor (not after poison heal, sand veil is never used), and Garchomp. The rest of the team is free to change around without impacting how good the team is. In fact, that freedom allows you to put in more variety in the pokemon to cover your weaknesses.


Sand, on the other hand.... has Excadrill any drawbacks in the Sand? Scizor? Landorus? Lucario? Terrakion?

All of them just get advantages in the sand. 6% health by turn, Ability, Sp. Def boost.
1:None of those get 6% hp per turn (except with leftovers, which has nothing to do with sand), unlike rain dish and dry skin, 2: Only terrakion gets the boost, lucario and scizor get no benefits from sand whatsoever.


That's why you always see the same members in Rain teams. They're limited. They're hard to use. If they was remotely broken Politoed would fit into every team and rank in the top five just like Tyranitar does. But it doesn't.

Rain teams have the same members because those are the most powerful abusers

They're extremely easy and take no effort to use.

Tyranitar isn't always used on a dedicated sandstorm team, whereas politoed is always a dedicated rain team.
 
By the way things are now, looks like the arguments from the ones that want Drizzle banned is like "weather wars suck, we should just stick with sand".

I have honestly never heard anybody say that

I really see not a single reason for Drizzle to have better effects than Sandstream.

Then why did you list them below?

Double STAB - between weak Waterfall or shaky Hydro Pump coming off sucky offensive prowess (the best offensive water types have Swift Swim/are ridiculously slow so they can't use their "awesome double STAB" at all) or Sand Strengh + Edgequake, STAB Earthquake from 135 base ATK or just about anything you can think of one will stick with the later.

BP of 95 isn't weak with a Rain boost (Gyarados says hi here), Hydro Pump's accuracy isn't bad, never said they have to be water types but don't forget Swift Swim was essentially banned so it doesn't fit either. And Sand Strength is an ability. For a pokemon to have Sand Strength boost their attacks it must have that specific ability whereas anything with a Water move gets the boost which is equal to a STAB even if the pokemon isn't a water type.

100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes: not worth the risk of having the weather changed at the wrong time and missing. And Kyurem has been firing ridiculously powerful STABs with Freeze being much better than paralyze or confusion and nobody complained.

Nobody complained because Kyurem is barely used in OU. This isn't UU or BL, this is OU and Kyurem isn't much of a threat at all. On top of that, the pokemon firing off the perfectly accuracte Thunders and Hurricanes can usually handle weather starters.

Half damage from fire moves: works both ways. The rain team won't be able to use fire moves at all. When facing stuff like Jirachi who isn't weak to Fightning like Ferrothorn and have awesome Sp. def unlike Scizor this is hell.

I've heard this before and I'll ask again. What Rain team has fire moves on it? None. Literally 0. Nobody uses Fire Blast on Rain teams because the boost was made to make pokemon like Jirachi hard to kill. Ironically enough, I use Jirachi in my arguments for why Rain is broken and that's the exact reason. Let me say again, nobody using Rain teams WANTS to use Fire attacks.

Have some of you ever thinked why Rain teams always use the same members over and over again while Sand and even Sun teams are more varied? Because there are few Pokemon that can reliably abuse the rain.

Correct, very few. There's only Ferrothorn/Jirachi/Scizor/Rotom-W/Thundurus/Tornadus/Toxicroak/Jellicent/Dragonite/Latios/
Politoed/Gyarados/anything with Waterfall/Hydro Pumps and above 80ish stats/Garchomp with Aqua Tail works in Rain/Ludicolo/Kingdra/Kabutops/Sharpedo/Azumarill.
Not very many options at all if you ask me.

It's not that they're "too good" or "broken"; it's because they're the only ones that works. Toxicroak is the only single Pokemon I can think of that 100% abuses the Rain without any drawback.
Most of the "rain abusers" comes with a horrible Grass, Electric and (gasp!) Water weakness. You can run Rotom-W in any team and troll Drizzle users as even resisted Hydro Pumps will take a chunk thanks to Drizzle. It's not easy to abuse rain.

We've disproved this already right? And lol your idea to troll Drizzle users is to run a Drizzle abuser, so much for that over-centralizing thing. And Toxicroak being the only one without a drawback? You do know Latios get Surf, the genies have other fighting moves to deal with the occasional Ttar and can OHKO Ninetails, Jellicent is good outside of Rain(as are most pokes on Rain teams). Most pokemon on Rain teams are good outside of Rain and are great under it. Really great.

Sand, on the other hand.... has Excadrill any drawbacks in the Sand? Scizor? Landorus? Lucario? Terrakion?

Excadrill will suck without the Sand being up. But besides that, no drawbacks. Also no benefits either. Aside from Terrakion getting a Sp Def boost none of them get anything bar Excadrill (its main niche which will be lost if Sand is gone) and Dream World Landorus which hasn't been released yet.

All of them just get advantages in the sand. 6% health by turn, Ability, Sp. Def boost.

Wrong. They don't lose 6% health every turn from Sand, one of them, arguably two, get Abilities activated, and only one gets a Sp Def boost. You imply that they all get those boosts and that just isn't true.

There's a reason Tyranitar's the 1# top used Pokemon in the game.

It's a good pokemon in it's own rite and can induce weather. Why else? It also helps counter weather AND the rest of the metagame in ways anti-weather teams can't.

It's much easier to abuse sand than any other weather.

List Sand Abusers, because it's not sounding that way.

Not to mention two types that are immune to Sandstorm damage's also resistant do the most destructive move in the game: Stealth Rock.

Rapid Spin gets rid of that for Rain teams. Don't forget Starmie, which is strong in Rain too.

That's why you always see the same members in Rain teams. They're limited. They're hard to use. If they was remotely broken Politoed would fit into every team and rank in the top five just like Tyranitar does. But it doesn't.

Hard to use? If they're hard to use then why is Rain being used on more then 1 in every 10 teams? Just because Sand is ridiculously centralized doesn't mean nobody is using Rain. And the top five are Sand teams BECAUSE they beat weather(namely Rain) Sand is the anti-weather that competes viably with the rest of the metagame. Don't tell me you didn't notice the rise in Ttar usage and Sand teams overall after Round 2, when Drizzle was rampant.

If we ban Drizzle we'll go back to the steel era that DP was. It'll reign supreme again as the best type in the game, be Excadrill uber or not. Ninetales? Stands no chance against any common member of a Sandstorm team member. Sun teams are about setting up sun before they have the chance to lay down SR and nuking the fuck out of whatever they send in - they don't survive long enough, if you take LO recoil + Sandstream damage + Flare Blitz/Speed Slow (V-Create) + Stealth Rock, well, sun teams are screwed should sand dominate.

The threat of a new gen 4 doesn't scare me, it does say a bit about why so many people jump when saying ban any weather. Steel being the best type is arguably true now and it sounds like you're saying keep Drizzle in OU so Steel types don't wreck the meta.
 
Uh, I was going to let this go, but this post brought my attention.

Obviously, you fail to realise the Stall was the strongest playtype in 4th Gen, and is still pretty good in the Gen as well, when used by a competant player.

And, Gliscor is weak? There is such as thing as offensive Gliscor, you know, Swords Dance + Base 110 STAB = Not weak, especially with STAB Earthquake backing it up with brilliant coverage. There's a reason why Glisor is used so much :/

And Tangrowth is hardly weak either. It actually has Base 100 Attack and Base 110 Sp.attack.

It's not bad either, especially with Regenerator making it more usable, it's just slow and lacks special defense.

LOL @ Skarm being weak. It's a wall. If you seriously think Skarm is garbage, GTH out of this thread and play against a stall team.

1) I don't want to run stall. It is boring and tedious to play.
2) Offensive Gliscor, you mean something like 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly? You do realise that Gliscor doesn't counter Excadrill any more? +2 Adamant Rock Slide does 67.81% - 80.14%, and I'd hate to see how much Return does. In short, in order to counter Excadrill, Gliscor needs to investment so much in defense that he ends up doing 45% to Salamence with Ice Fang. Strongth.
3) Again, I don't care that Tangrowth has 100/110 offenses, without investment, he is still hitting like a girl, especially when his STAB is Grass.
4) And yes, Skarm IS weak, since it really can't kill anything for shit. Again, why do I need to run a wall just for Excadrill? Basically, if I want to play offense, I'm going to have to 1) Bring Azumarill/Conkeldurr, 2) Bring a wall, or 3) Run weather. Starting to sound a bit like 4th gen UU Yanmega to me.


EDIT: Again, I don't want to continue this, take my posts on Excadrill as a grain of salt. I'm merely venting some frustration.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top