np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[charizard24]

Basically what I think you are not seeing in my post is that I am not talking about other weathers when it comes to strategies. If rain does dominate, it will just become natural, and strategies will take it into account, regardless of if they are using SwSwers or not. You don't necessarily need to run a different weather to take out rain.

I highly doubt that would happen. For one thing, in this current metagame with rain severely nerfed, we still have an overwhelming majority of people that want to ban Drizzle itself outright. On the premise that the extra boost to STAB and the 100% accurate Thunder and Hurricane abuse is too powerful. I just can't see how allowing the swift swimmers back would help the metagame at all. Rain is already Shitload powerful as it is and yet you want to make it even more OP. If anything, this will just make more people go against Drizzle in general.

There is almost no way to beat a Drizzle team without running your own weather. If there is, then please prove me wrong.

Sun and Hail would definitely still stay around by being very anti-metagame strategies, and I highly doubt Sand will ever go away fully with T-Tar being the one to induce it, but if the focus of battles shifts from setting weather to working with it, I actually think people will have a lot more fun.

By weather i'm assuming you mean "Rain". And by "working with the weather" i'm assuming you mean "Running a rain team".

I hardly see any diversity or fun in a meta where everyone runs a rain team. In fact how is that even different from Round 2? When everyone did just that.

 

[Darusare]

why does everyone bash hippowdown
hes a hell of a lot better now that swampert is basically gone
not everyone runs grass knot now
hes just not as offensively useful

 

[jas61292]

I highly doubt that would happen. For one thing, in this current metagame with rain severely nerfed, we still have an overwhelming majority of people that want to ban Drizzle itself outright. On the premise that the extra boost to STAB and the 100% accurate Thunder and Hurricane abuse is too powerful. I just can't see how allowing the swift swimmers back would help the metagame at all. Rain is already Shitload powerful as it is and yet you want to make it even more OP. If anything, this will just make more people go against Drizzle in general.

There is almost no way to beat a Drizzle team without running your own weather. If there is, then please prove me wrong.

1) Saying "an overwhelming majority of people that want to ban Drizzle itself outright" is a complete and total overstatement. If that was true it would have happened already.
2) I see you just ignored my whole "the metagame will adapt" part. Of course what you are using now wouldn't necessarily work against it. That's why you let it adapt.
3) Again, do you even read what I said about the SwSw Pokemon. If they are broken, ban them. But don't ban them all because a few are broken. For all we know Seaking could be a legit OU contender, but I highly doubt it would be anywhere near broken.
4) As for people hating rain more, as I said last post, whatever the result, I think people would be more hapy with a constant weather, than suffering through the weather wars.
5) Finally, there are ways to beat rain without weather. Run specific counters to popular rain Pokemon. Ferrothorn, Bulky Waters, etc. Hell, you could use Golduck or Lickilicky if you want. It might not be what you think of as a good team in the CURRENT metagame, but for all you know, they could be a perfectly good team in a rain dominated metagame. Don't try to pretend you can predict the evolution of the game.

By weather i'm assuming you mean "Rain". And by "working with the weather" i'm assuming you mean "Running a rain team".

I hardly see any diversity or fun in a meta where everyone runs a rain team. In fact how is that even different from Round 2? When everyone did just that.

No, by "setting weather," I am referring to the current weather wars, which nobody likes, and by "working with the weather"I mean running a team that works in post-weather war metagame, whatever it ends up looking like.

 

[IcyMan28]

'Leaving it up to the voting pool' means 'I'm neutral on the rest', which really just translates to "I'm casting my ballot to Abstain on everything I do not necessarily feel the need to keep nor ban."

Shrang, I'd like for you to explain your reasoning behind this. I'm not attacking your stance, but I have been curious as to why people choose to vote abstain on particular threats that they don't have a preference for either way. I'll explain my logic.

If you don't care about a pokemon presence in OU either way, that means that it hasn't indicated any brokenness - otherwise your opinion would be that it is indeed broken. And with the status quo being "OU until proven otherwise," it stands to reason that, having failed to prove otherwise, pokemon x is thus OU and deserves a vote that reflects this.

What is it, by your reasoning, that makes a vote to "abstain" equally as valid as an "OU" vote under said circumstances?

Warning, large wall of text beyond this point.

• Excadrill

Get Excadrill off of this damn list, please (this is directed at the community at large, not you in particular Ulevo). Its presence on the list is nothing more than the remnants of the post-release hype. WE HAVE FOUND WAYS TO DEAL WITH IT. Opposing weather, Gliscor, Rotom-W, Conkeldurr, etc. Excadrill rarely comes in for free either - the prevalence of balloon means that if I see one, I will be extremely wary of tossing out a ground move, ESPECIALLY if my primary check to it is weakened. It often takes significant damage while attempting to set up an SD, or it is forced to attack because it knows that it can't set up in front of the current pokemon. It is fast, and it is strong, but it has an exploitable STAB and can only sweep when its counters are removed. Aka, it is akin to a long list of sweepers who boast similar qualities.

• Reuniclus

This is another suspect nomination that I feel is over-the-top. Magic Guard is an EXCELLENT ability, I agree, and Reuniclus has some bulk and power behind it as well. But the thing is, those qualities are what it takes to function as an effective Psychic-type in OU, and even then it is manageable. I'm not talking about the dual Psychic types who have other redeeming qualities (LO Starmie is a beast, Celebi has mad resistances, Victini has a great offensive typing in the form of fire, Jirachi has that coveted steel type, etc), I mean a pure Psychic. U-Turn is everywhere, Tyranitar is everywhere, Steels are everywhere - the standard metagame is harsh to Psychic types, and this is reflected in their general absence from it.

That little tangent aside, Reuniclus can be easily checked, especially thanks to Team Preview. If you see one, you can assume it is the CM variant (the most popular and often the most dangerous). If you are incorrect, it still takes one turn to set up Trick Room, so you haven't lost too much. Meanwhile, CM Reuniclus is either horribly walled by other Psychics (non Shadow Ball means it loses to Latias, NP Celebi, Latios, Trick Starmie, and other Reuniclus), while without Focus Blast is is brutally punished by Scizor, Tyranitar, Spiritomb, CM Jirachi, and others). Volcarona can deal with it regardless of what it is. And then there are the non-dedicated ways to check it. It took 50% from LO Terrakion's Stone Edge before killing it with Psychic? Great, now I can just bring in a faster check and finish off the rest. At the very least, I forced it out and have gained the momentum.

Trick Room versions are easier to wall because they fail to OHKO the many bulky pokemon that roam the metagame. Stall out the Trick Room and finish it due to its lack of bulk. You even have team preview making it easy on you so you can plan ahead.

• Gorebyss

The strategy is good, but has its flaws. Ferrothorn switched into your Deoxys-E as it sets up Reflect. Do you Taunt to stop the Leech Seed / Thunder Wave, or do you set up Light Screen as it Power Whips you? And once you've set up all you have, are you going to switch to Gorebyss to take 2 Power Whips (one on the switch, one on the set up)? Alternatively, Sand is blowing. Your opponent mispredicts as you set up Reflect, but goes to Excadrill on the Light Screen and SD's as you switch to Gorebyss. You manage to kill it with Surf, but its EQ has taken away 55% of your health and, with Spikes included, you have 33% left and a counter on your screens. Can you pull off a Shell Pass or is it best to risk trying again later?

I don't think it is unbeatable, just another effective strategy that can be prepared for with Team Preview. No one will use Gorebyss or Huntail otherwise, so its a dead giveaway.

• Garchomp

Last gen, Sand Veil was "the icing on the cake." This gen, Sand Veil is the whole issue for banning it. Don't even try to use the "oh but this is a new gen" argument because that is entirely unrelated in this case. The standard for banning something is seeming to progress from "its broken" to "I don't like this," and this is the flagship example.

Garchomp's power is manageable and on par with the rest of the metagame. Sand Veil is a 20% chance to take effect. Stop getting pissed off so easily when you fail to execute a flawless game every now and then. What's more, Sand is no longer the only weather like it was last gen - Drizzle and Drought (though I don't like Drizzle, myself) can always render Garchomp with what is essentially no ability. The number of faster threats is much larger this gen - even if your Virizion misses that HP Ice, you have Latios waiting in the wings to Dragon Pulse it back to hell.

I haven't seen any arguments arguing Garchomp's power to be the cause of its brokenness, and if I missed one or two its because they were overwhelmed by the Sand Veil bitching and lost in that shitstorm. I have lost to Garchomp's Sand Veil. I have also won against Garchomp's Sand Veil four times as often.

EDIT: Moreover, Sand Veil hax happens to EVERYONE. It happens to me, it happens to every person reading this post. So the overall effect on people's ratings compared to one another would not be any different than without Sand Veil, in 99% of cases.

• Latios

This is one of the more borderline cases, but I still feel it to be solidly OU. Latios is naturally suspect because without Blissey, special attackers are considerably more difficult to deal with than physical attackers because there are fewer counterparts to Gliscor, Skarmory, and Hippowdon, plus they can viably run Hidden Power to take out an additional check or two. However, the metagame has adapted to its presence. No, it has not "overcentralized" to its presence (an irrelevant term anyhow), it has merely adapted. SpD Jirachi, SpD Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Metagross, etc...they are alive and well and doing their job to check Latios damn well. If a pokemon can reasonably switch into the majority of a pokemon's attacks, it is a check. If Latios predicts their switch based on past plays in the match, you were outplayed. Simple as that. Latios is a top-tier threat - every metagame will have them. Will we be looking to ban them, too?

• Tyranitar

As I said before, at least taking a look at Tyranitar is reasonable given its general prowess. Still, I see it solidly OU.

• Ferrothorn

"OMG I have to run HP Fire just for this thing." "OMG I have to run HP Grass just for Swampert." "OMG I have to run HP Ice just for Gliscor and Garchomp."

People complain because there are too many high-powered threats, then they complain because GF also gives us the tools to deal with them. Seriously, what do you people want? A steel type that isn't utterly screwed by a water type (hell, a grass-type that isn't screwed by a water type) has been long-needed, and its effect on the metagame is overwhelmingly positive, IMO. It has great resistances, but it also has key weaknesses to the highly offensive Fighting- and Fire-type, as well as a neutrality to Ground. What does that mean? You have to play smartly to remove it. Yes, thought and planning are required. Jellicent has been paired with it less often as of late, meaning that there is less chances of a spinblocker stopping your Rapid Spin attempts, too, should you be using that route to deal with it.

• Drizzle

This is the only thing on the list that I feel is banworthy. First we had the Swift Swim drama. We got rid of that, and it is still the most powerful weather. That is not an issue in and of itself, as there will always be a "most" powerful. It is the degree by which it is the most powerful that is too much.

Sand has few viable abusers, that are contained with relatively similar checks. Sun has few viable abusers, that are contained with relatively similar checks. Rain has tons of viable abusers, that are contained with different checks, simply because the common assumption that Rain Sweeper = Water type is false. The boosts it gives to MANY pokemon is just too great.

You have SpD Zapdos to check Tornadus and Politoed, but then CM Virizion or CM Latios comes into the picture to blast you to bits. Your Ferrothorn tried to stop LO Starmie, but later on in the match they used mixed Thundurus to 2HKO you with Hammer Arm, not even bothering to Nasty Plot. Excited that you finally managed to get Sand up, you go to Gliscor/Skarmory/Hippowdon as they bring Scizor into the picture for an SD sweep, then realize that you have nothing to stop Politoed from coming back in to set up rain again, and your own CM Virizion has already been weakened by Thundurus' LO Thunder, so you'll have more difficulty dealing with it when it Nasty Plots this time. What to do?

The last situation is largely a weather war, which is fine, but even when Rain loses the weather war, they are at an advantage based on type matchup alone. Sand only boosts the SpD of a rock-type, which is essentially just Tyranitar as far as OU is concerned. So even if you killed Politoed and got sand up, you still have a team of Rock, Ground, and Steel types attempting to take on LO Starmie. CM Virizion, another common member, does not give two shits about Sand and will just Giga Drain to stay at full health while plowing over Ferrothorn (who had been taking boosted Hydro Pump while waiting for Sand to become permanent).

Even with Virizion removed, and Tornadus out of the way so that Prankster Tailwind isn't an issue, the opponent has been careful to preserve their CB Azumarill after seeing your Excadrill, so you can't be assured of your sweep until that happens.

Let's look at Drought, now. Let's say they win the weather war, with Ninetales outliving Politoed. Venusaur is preparing a sweep as it uses Growth, but the Thundurus you failed to kill uses Prankster Thunder Wave to prematurely end your sweep as you kill it. LO Starmie comes out to finish you with Ice Beam, and still takes 67% off your Heatran with Hydro Pump despite the sun.

The examples are largely in Drizzle's favor, sure. But that doesn't change that fact that they often will be because Drizzle's sweepers have an advantage to Drought's.

I genuinely feel like Drizzle is the only thing that sticks out like a sore thumb this round. Ban Drizzle, Free Manaphy. The resulting metagame will let us finally test the claim that "Drought will then be too powerful and will have to be banned." If it is, fine, banish it to Ubers and free Blaziken. If it isn't, equally fine - we can leave the metagame as it is at that point.

 

[UltiMario]

Alternatively to these huge, extremely complicated set-ups people are saying to beat Shell Pass, you could just use Vaporeon.

Takes pitiful damage from Gorebyss and Roars. Yeah. Only doesn't beat Espeon BP teams.

 

[charizard24]

1) Saying "an overwhelming majority of people that want to ban Drizzle itself outright" is a complete and total overstatement. If that was true it would have happened already.
2) I see you just ignored my whole "the metagame will adapt" part. Of course what you are using now wouldn't necessarily work against it. That's why you let it adapt.
3) Again, do you even read what I said about the SwSw Pokemon. If they are broken, ban them. But don't ban them all because a few are broken. For all we know Seaking could be a legit OU contender, but I highly doubt it would be anywhere near broken.
4) As for people hating rain more, as I said last post, whatever the result, I think people would be more hapy with a constant weather, than suffering through the weather wars.
5) Finally, there are ways to beat rain without weather. Run specific counters to popular rain Pokemon. Ferrothorn, Bulky Waters, etc. Hell, you could use Golduck or Lickilicky if you want. It might not be what you think of as a good team in the CURRENT metagame, but for all you know, they could be a perfectly good team in a rain dominated metagame. Don't try to pretend you can predict the evolution of the game.

1) Fair enough.

2) I read the "metagame will adapt" part. It takes a long time for the metagame to suitably adapt to a certain environment. And even after it has adapted, how can we truly say that the situation we are in is better than the one before it. In Gen 4 people adapted their teams around a potential Salamence. They carried specific Checks/Counters for it. And for a while, that seemed to work. We all accepted that we had to run a counter for it simply because it was there. Rain is similar, we will have to run specific counters/checks for it. But how can we say that the Drizzle+ SwSw meta is better than one without it.

3) They are not all banned. All of those Swift Swim pokemon are legal one way or another. It is simply the combination of the abilities that is illegal on a given team. You could still run your Seaking/Qwilfish on a Rain Dance team and utilise Swift Swim to sweep pretty eficiently. These pokemon aren't banned from the game, but they were nerfed. Yes, it is unfortunate that Armaldo is not a top OU threat and etc. But that is the sacrifice we made to diversify the metagame. Even if Kingdra/Kabu/Ludi are banned, there will be pokemon to take their place. There is no guarantee that the others will be balanced.

4) I disagree, a constant weather all the time would be monotonous. Even in this meta with weather wars running rampant. There is at least some diversity among it. Not just between the 3 main weathers. There are plenty of different teams that have formed. Even some balanced teams stand a chance these days.

5) "Specific counters to popular rain pokemon". Isn't that exactly what we are trying to avoid. Being forced to run 1 out of 3 pokemon on my team and even then, there is still a possibility that it could be overpowered seems overcentralising to say the least.

No, by "setting weather," I am referring to the current weather wars, which nobody likes, and by "working with the weather"I mean running a team that works in post-weather war metagame, whatever it ends up looking like.

It depends what you mean by "post-weather war". Since the only way the weather wars will stop is if you ban the weathers outright.

 

[IcyMan28]

^Did you play Gen 4? It was not monotonous at all and Sand was the only weather anyone ever saw.

 

[Benlisted]

Alternatively to these huge, extremely complicated set-ups people are saying to beat Shell Pass, you could just use Vaporeon.

Takes pitiful damage from Gorebyss and Roars. Yeah. Only doesn't beat Espeon BP teams.

There are no legal Espeon BP teams - DW Espeon cannot get Baton Pass.

Anyway, to IcyMan, I pretty much agree with everything you posted but the analysis of Drizzle.

Could the issue not be with Drizzle and instead with Tornadus, Thundurus or similar? These monsters hit ridiculously hard under Rain, and have enough coverage to be able to deal with their counters. Even if all goes ill and they're about to die, guess what, a key sweeper just got crippled with T-Wave or even worse, Tailwind got set up, letting literally every base 90+ natured mon outspeed even the likes of Excadrill and Sawsbuck in their own weather. Personally I don't see that Drizzle is as overbearing as everyone claims currently, but even if so I honestly think that the genies would be the only possibly broken factors under it.

It really seems like it's another situation like the triple SwSw threat we had a while back, where Rain's power stems from being able to spam immensely powerful moves with impunity (but also having awesome last resort options). If the genies were removed the primary active abuse of Drizzle would be boosted water moves, which would probably imo be handleable due to being a single type, the main Thunder/Hurricane abuse would come from the significantly slower and weaker Dragonite, who as such is far easier to manage than the genies.

 

[B-Lulz]

Ban Garchomp or weather. That is all!!! Everything else can stay tbh, and the metagame is just not fun at all so I doubt i'll try and make reqs since every time i seem to face a Garchomp I end up missing against Sand Veil...

 

[IcyMan28]

There are no legal Espeon BP teams - DW Espeon cannot get Baton Pass.

Anyway, to IcyMan, I pretty much agree with everything you posted but the analysis of Drizzle.

Could the issue not be with Drizzle and instead with Tornadus, Thundurus or similar? These monsters hit ridiculously hard under Rain, and have enough coverage to be able to deal with their counters. Even if all goes ill and they're about to die, guess what, a key sweeper just got crippled with T-Wave or even worse, Tailwind got set up, letting literally every base 90+ natured mon outspeed even the likes of Excadrill and Sawsbuck in their own weather. Personally I don't see that Drizzle is as overbearing as everyone claims currently, but even if so I honestly think that the genies would be the only possibly broken factors under it.

It really seems like it's another situation like the triple SwSw threat we had a while back, where Rain's power stems from being able to spam immensely powerful moves with impunity (but also having awesome last resort options). If the genies were removed the primary active abuse of Drizzle would be boosted water moves, which would probably imo be handleable, the main Thunder/Hurricane abuse would come from the significantly slower Dragonite, who as such is far easier to manage than the genies.

So let's assume we've removed the genies. That would mean we have nerfed the 3 primary SwSw sweepers (in addition to the lesser used ones such as Gorebyss and Omastar), the 2 genies, and anything "similar."

Why are you (and others) insisting that we do this when it is clearly Drizzle that is the issue? People said it wouldn't be a problem when we nerfed Swift Swim. Now they are saying that it won't be a problem when we ban "users of powerful drawback free high power STABs."

It'll also be manageable when be ban the use of Steel types and Drizzle because of their defensive prowess.

DRIZZLE is the common factor. Literally ALL of the pokemon we have nerfed and are attempting to ban have been manageable outside of the rain. Forgive me if I am being harsh or if I seem to be needlessly attacking you, but you need to stop trying so hard to preserve Drizzle for Drizzle's sake.

 

[charizard24]

^Did you play Gen 4? It was not monotonous at all and Sand was the only weather anyone ever saw.

Dont compare Gen 4 Sand to Gen 5 Drizzle.
There was one situational abuser of Sand in Gen 4 which was Chomp and its veil hax, that's it.
Drizzle in Gen 5 has countless abusers and very few ways to effectively deal with them.

I highly doubt that the Sand teams (if you can even call them that anymore) of Gen 4 can match up to Drizzle standards

 

[jas61292]

2) I read the "metagame will adapt" part. It takes a long time for the metagame to suitably adapt to a certain environment. And even after it has adapted, how can we truly say that the situation we are in is better than the one before it. In Gen 4 people adapted their teams around a potential Salamence. They carried specific Checks/Counters for it. And for a while, that seemed to work. We all accepted that we had to run a counter for it simply because it was there. Rain is similar, we will have to run specific counters/checks for it. But how can we say that the Drizzle+ SwSw meta is better than one without it.

It is true. We can't say it would be better. Nor can we say it would be worse. However I believe it is, and should always be our policy to not ban unless we are sure. As we can't know if it would be better or not we should let it happen. Only if it is found to be definitely worse should we change the metagame with bans.

3) They are not all banned. All of those Swift Swim pokemon are legal one way or another. It is simply the combination of the abilities that is illegal on a given team. You could still run your Seaking/Qwilfish on a Rain Dance team and utilise Swift Swim to sweep pretty eficiently. These pokemon aren't banned from the game, but they were nerfed. Yes, it is unfortunate that Armaldo is not a top OU threat and etc. But that is the sacrifice we made to diversify the metagame. Even if Kingdra/Kabu/Ludi are banned, there will be pokemon to take their place. There is no guarantee that the others will be balanced.

That is besides the point. We are preventing Pokemon like Floatzel, Siesmitoad and Seaking who could be OU with SS from being any good. You are presenting a biased and unfair view of things with respect to these Pokemon.

As far as the last two points, I don't think it is possible to make any real conclusions without actually letting it develop. Using theories of how it would work just won't cut it. Just look at when the games were first released. So much for Haxorus being a number 1 threat and Reuniclus just being another Psychic type. Some things just can't be predicted.

 

[IcyMan28]

Dont compare Gen 4 Sand to Gen 5 Drizzle.
There was one situational abuser of Sand in Gen 4 which was Chomp and its veil hax, that's it.
Drizzle in Gen 5 has countless abusers and very few ways to effectively deal with them.

I highly doubt that the Sand teams (if you can even call them that anymore) of Gen 4 can match up to Drizzle standards

I may have misread your post - I was assuming you were referring to the mono-Sand environment that would result from a Drizzle and Drought ban.

That is besides the point. We are preventing Pokemon like Floatzel Siezmitoad and Seaking who could be OU with SS from being any good. You are presenting a biased and unfair view of things with respect to these Pokemon.

As far as the last two points, I don't think it is possible to make any real conclusions without actually letting it develop. Using theories of how it would work just won't cut it. Just look at when the games were first released. So much for Haxorus being a number 1 threat and Reuniclus just being another Psychic type. Some things just can't be predicted.

This is pedantic. Floatzel, Siesmitoad, and Seaking will not be OU anytime soon with their sub-par bulk and offenses. It is not "biased and unfair" to claim this, it is a valid assessment of the metagame.

I still think Drizzle as a whole is far too powerful, so these pokemon won't see the light of day any way should Drizzle finally get the boot.

 

[Benlisted]

So let's assume we've removed the genies. That would mean we have nerfed the 3 primary SwSw sweepers (in addition to the lesser used ones such as Gorebyss and Omastar), the 2 genies, and anything "similar."

Why are you (and others) insisting that we do this when it is clearly Drizzle that is the issue? People said it wouldn't be a problem when we nerfed Swift Swim. Now they are saying that it won't be a problem when we ban "users of powerful drawback free high power STABs."

It'll also be manageable when be ban the use of Steel types and Drizzle because of their defensive prowess.

DRIZZLE is the common factor. Literally ALL of the pokemon we have nerfed and are attempting to ban have been manageable outside of the rain. Forgive me if I am being harsh or if I seem to be needlessly attacking you, but you need to stop trying so hard to preserve Drizzle for Drizzle's sake.

I understand your point, but saying it is clearly Drizzle that is the issue is simply not true - it is Drizzle in combination with fast, hard hitting sweepers with the moves and typing to abuse it. Drizzle alone clearly is not broken.

Now I think you were essentially meaning what you later said - that Drizzle is the common factor in all these pokemon's brokenness under it - but I just wanted to clear the first point up. I'm also not quite clear on what you mean by all the pokemon we have or are attempting to ban being Drizzle abusers, since presently Latios, Deo-S and such are on simple majority to ban and Blaziken, a Sun if any abuser was banned last round? Assuming you mean SwSwers being claused out and me bringing up Thundurus and Tornadus, fair play, but I was only offering the genies as the possible reason for Drizzle being broken in the event it is found broken (last round it was not by far) and it is not my belief that either are broken.

Anyway, the actual reason why I consistently advocate against banning Drizzle, or so it seems, is not really for Drizzle's sake at all. It's partially because as I stated earlier, weather on its own can never be broken, partially because I see the Rain team archetype (and any other team archetype in fact) as one worth preserving to ensure a diversity of archetypes in a desirable metagame, partially because banning Drizzle drops the viability of a huge number of pokemon to an extent that it has more impact that 1 or 2 bans on the genies - making it overall more harmful to individual mon diversity, and partially because I honestly think that without the genies Rain would be in no way overbearing. The final reason is that I believe that a pokemon broken under any circumstances should be banned regardless of its other sets' or roles brokenness or lack thereof, so if the genies are broken in Rain they should be banned, and if Politoed alone is broken then it should be banned, but few seem to share this view.

Likewise, I don't want to personally attack you, just make clear my reasoning.

 

[jas61292]

This is pedantic. Floatzel, Siesmitoad, and Seaking will not be OU anytime soon with their sub-par bulk and offenses. It is not "biased and unfair" to claim this, it is a valid assessment of the metagame.

I still think Drizzle as a whole is far too powerful, so these pokemon won't see the light of day any way should Drizzle finally get the boot.

Let SwSw back in. Then ban the "big 3." Then tell me Floatzel isn't OU. Seaking and Seismitoad might not make the cut, but they would certainly be viable. And that's not even mentioning others like Qwilfish, Mantine, and Relicanth. They would all have great potential to work in OU without being broken. Not to mention others once their DW abilities are released.

 

[Nanoswine]

So let's assume we've removed the genies. That would mean we have nerfed the 3 primary SwSw sweepers (in addition to the lesser used ones such as Gorebyss and Omastar), the 2 genies, and anything "similar."

Why are you (and others) insisting that we do this when it is clearly Drizzle that is the issue? People said it wouldn't be a problem when we nerfed Swift Swim. Now they are saying that it won't be a problem when we ban "users of powerful drawback free high power STABs."

It'll also be manageable when be ban the use of Steel types and Drizzle because of their defensive prowess.

DRIZZLE is the common factor. Literally ALL of the pokemon we have nerfed and are attempting to ban have been manageable outside of the rain. Forgive me if I am being harsh or if I seem to be needlessly attacking you, but you need to stop trying so hard to preserve Drizzle for Drizzle's sake.

The only ban that has been made where Drizzle was a factor was Aldaron's Proposal, and a lot of players want to repeal that ban in favor of banning the individual broken Pokemon. Don't use bans that haven't happened and aren't likely to take place as an argument for banning Drizzle.

 

[Glen ^^]

Hey, I bring big news. Weather isn't only for your opponent, it also works for you, so bring your Thundurus, Scizor, Garchomp, Jirachi, whatever else is overpowered under certain weather and have fun too!

 

[IcyMan28]

'm also not quite clear on what you mean by all the pokemon we have or are attempting to ban being Drizzle abusers, since presently Latios, Deo-S and such are on simple majority to ban and Blaziken, a Sun if any abuser was banned last round? Assuming you mean SwSwers being claused out and me bringing up Thundurus and Tornadus, fair play, but I was only offering the genies as the possible reason for Drizzle being broken in the event it is found broken (last round it was not by far) and it is not my belief that either are broken.

You misunderstood that paragraph, I meant that all the sweepers we have banned are are attempting to ban in relation to Drizzle. So that excludes Latios, Deo-S, Reuniclus, etc. I mean all of the pokemon we are attempting to stop combining with Drizzle.

Weather is not broken on its own, this is obvious. But if the pokemon around to abuse it become so powerful and are so abundant, it is too broken. It may be gen 5, but tests with a statistically reduced Kyogre resulted in broken metagames for Gens 3 and 4, so there is some evidence to indicate that a weather boost can be too powerful.

Banning Drizzle would not drastically reduce the viability of a huge number of pokemon. Ferrothorn, Thundurus, Virizion, Jirachi, Azumarill, Scizor, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Starmie - all of them would still see use. Tornadus, Politoed, and Azumarill may see decreased usage, but when a more competetive metagame is the result, it is a small price to pay.

We do not need to ensure a "diversity of archetypes." As it stands, the metagame is currently: Drought archetype, Drizzle archetype, Sand offense archetype, sand stall archetype, nonweather. That is about it, or it sure seems that way at least.

I honestly think that without the swift swimmers Rain would be in no way overbearing

That is the EXACT sentiment that was echoed back in Round 2, and yet here we are continuing to discuss the strongest (broken) weather. Once we remove enough pokemon available for use in Drizzle, it will naturally be more balanced. Drizzle is not something that is inherently valuable to the metagame that needs to be preserved. People tried this excuse by pointing to Rain Stall, but quite honestly I've not seen many of the teams that people were so desperately trying to preserve. In other words, it was an empty argument used to try and strengthen the need for Aldaron's Proposal, and I believe the same is being done with the Genies to ensure that Drizzle remains.

EDIT:

The only ban that has been made where Drizzle was a factor was Aldaron's Proposal, and a lot of players want to repeal that ban in favor of banning the individual broken Pokemon. Don't use bans that haven't happened and aren't likely to take place as an argument for banning Drizzle.

I think you missed my point. I was replying to his suggestion that we ban the genies rather than Drizzle, which is akin to banning Swift Swim from Drizzle to keep it in the game. I simply highlighted the fact that Drizzle is the problem with these sweepers rather than they themselves. I am not in any way using bans that haven't happened/aren't likely to prove Drizzle's brokenness.

Let SwSw back in. Then ban the "big 3." Then tell me Floatzel isn't OU. Seaking and Seismitoad might not make the cut, but they would certainly be viable. And that's not even mentioning others like Qwilfish, Mantine, and Relicanth. They would all have great potential to work in OU without being broken. Not to mention others once their DW abilities are released.

Okay, I'll just let Gorebyss and Omastar ravage your team, then we can ban them too. Obviously stuff will rise to fill their place. I'd rather have a metagame where Kingdra and Ludicolo are useable than one were no one uses rain anyway because Seaking and Luvdisc are their only options for Swift Swim.

Hey, I bring big news. Weather isn't only for your opponent, it also works for you, so bring your Thundurus, Scizor, Garchomp, Jirachi, whatever else is overpowered under certain weather and have fun too!

Good point. I think we should also allow Rayquaza into OU. My opponent may be able to use it, but so can I so that means that the fun is for everyone!

 

[charizard24]

Let SwSw back in. Then ban the "big 3." Then tell me Floatzel isn't OU. Seaking and Seismitoad might not make the cut, but they would certainly be viable. And that's not even mentioning others like Qwilfish, Mantine, and Relicanth. They would all have great potential to work in OU without being broken. Not to mention others once their DW abilities are released.

Floatzel will probably be OU. Your right in that sense. However, even if the "Big 3" are gone, tell me how a team of :
Politoed + Omastar/Floatzel/Qwilfish/Poliwrath/Gorebyss/Huntail/Carracosta/Armaldo + Thundurus/Tornadus/Dragonite + Ferro/Scizor/steel + 2 more support pokemon (Azumarill/Virizion/Heatran/weather counter/etc)

Wont be overpowering?

(I didn't mention the other swift swimmers because they probably wont be OU. Please dont tell me to include Luvdisc and magikarps.)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Just saying, the statistically reduced Kyogre didn't result in a broken metagame, it resulted in a broken Kyogre ^.^

 

[IcyMan28]

Do you have a link to the thread where this was done? I'm pretty sure reduced Kyogre had stats on par with the rest of OU, but ended up being broken because of Drizzle's support.

 

[jas61292]

Floatzel will probably be OU. Your right in that sense. However, even if the "Big 3" are gone, tell me how a team of :
Politoed + Omastar/Floatzel/Qwilfish/Poliwrath/Gorebyss/Huntail/Carracosta/Armaldo + Thundurus/Tornadus/Dragonite + Ferro/Scizor/steel

Wont be overpowering?

(I didn't mention the other swift swimmers because they probably wont be OU. Please dont tell me to include Luvdisc and magikarps.)

Surskit FTW!! But in all seriousness, I can't really say. Maybe some of the other SwSwer will be overpowered, and maybe we have to ban more than just 3 Pokemon. But even then, no I do not think as a team it would be overpowering. Maybe it would be to commonly used teams now, but as I have said over and over, the metagame that this team would be in would be different, and people wouldn't be using the same Pokemon. As long as there are many different Pokemon being used, it doesn't matter who they are.

Personally, I think that people's biggest fear is having to use "bad" Pokemon to counter rain, without taking into account that if rain does dominate those Pokemon won't be bad at all. Just because some of the most commonly used Pokemon aren't Garchomp and Heatran does not make the Pokemon who are used any worse.

Do you have a link to the thread where this was done? I'm pretty sure reduced Kyogre had stats on par with the rest of OU, but ended up being broken because of Drizzle's support.

Just wondering, what does "on par with the rest of OU" mean? Cuase if it was T-Tar level stats then it would be no surprise that it was broken. But if it was Smeargle level, that would be different.

 

[charizard24]

@ Icyman28
I dont think such a thread even existed. It was an unofficial test iirc. In fact i doubt we were even supposed to know about it.

Personally, I think that people's biggest fear is having to use "bad" Pokemon to counter rain, without taking into account that if rain does dominate those Pokemon won't be bad at all. Just because some of the most commonly used Pokemon aren't Garchomp and Heatran does not make the Pokemon who are used any worse.

Name these "bad" pokemon that can magically counter rain. Discounting Golduck and Lickilicky there are none or few. Again, i hardly consider being forced to run 1 of 3 pokemon to stop myself being swept all the time a blessing.

Just wondering, what does "on par with the rest of OU" mean? Cuase if it was T-Tar level stats then it would be no surprise that it was broken. But if it was Smeargle level, that would be different.

I believe they were level 1 pokemon.


However those tests were unofficial and very short. As such they should have no bearing on our discussions about weather this gen.

 

[jas61292]

Name these "bad" pokemon that can magically counter rain. Discounting Golduck and Lickilicky there are none or few. Again, i hardly consider being forced to run 1 of 3 pokemon to stop myself being swept all the time a blessing.

I really can't. As I have been saying, we can't know what will counter it without letting it happen first. However I do know many current highly used Pokemon can't, which was the main point of that statement. People get attached to their Pokemon and will oppose a change like this if only because they don't want to have to adapt. People hate change. It's unfortunate, but true. But it is only after we change that many of these things can be discovered.

 

[Benlisted]

Weather is not broken on its own, this is obvious. But if the pokemon around to abuse it become so powerful and are so abundant, it is too broken. It may be gen 5, but tests with a statistically reduced Kyogre resulted in broken metagames for Gens 3 and 4, so there is some evidence to indicate that a weather boost can be too powerful.

I'm fairly sure that test was undertaken in the CAP metagame for one thing, and as you say, that was in past generations when the huge boosts to SS in the form of Excadrill, Landorus etc did not exist, nor did the boosts to Drought in the form of Growth buff, and DW Venusaur along with Sawbuck. Comparing it to this meta which is simply vastly better equipped to counter Rain is pretty dubious, imo.

Banning Drizzle would not drastically reduce the viability of a huge number of pokemon. Ferrothorn, Thundurus, Virizion, Jirachi, Azumarill, Scizor, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Starmie - all of them would still see use. Tornadus, Politoed, and Azumarill may see decreased usage, but when a more competetive metagame is the result, it is a small price to pay.

Admittedly both our points are hard to prove here since there are no stats, but mons like Toxicroak, Tornadus, Parasect, and Polioed depend almost entirely on Drizzle. Aside from this, many mons will be disadvantaged by the fact that their water hits will no longer ever be boosted, their Fire weakness mitigated or their Thunder/Hurricanes boosted number into double figures - you point many out yourself. These would take a hit partly from the lack of Drizzle boosting them, but also from the increase in Drought sure to occur as a result. Yes their viability may not be eliminated, but you cut down their niches and this may well serve to decrease diversity in terms of mons, by as many merits as you can say it would not.

We do not need to ensure a "diversity of archetypes." As it stands, the metagame is currently: Drought archetype, Drizzle archetype, Sand offense archetype, sand stall archetype, nonweather. That is about it, or it sure seems that way at least.

That pretty much comes down to your interpretation of the desirable pokemon metagame diversity criterion. Personally, the amount of archetypes you've mentioned above seems quite adequate to produce a metagame along with the possibility of running Hail, Rain Stall, etc, so I'm not sure that removing Drizzle would promote diversity at all. It may in fact lead to the other weathers simply becoming more dominant, so non-weather is just as screwed but now there is one less archetype to play, we cannot tell for sure.

That is the EXACT sentiment that was echoed back in Round 2, and yet here we are continuing to discuss the strongest (broken) weather. Once we remove enough pokemon available for use in Drizzle, it will naturally be more balanced. Drizzle is not something that is inherently valuable to the metagame that needs to be preserved. People tried this excuse by pointing to Rain Stall, but quite honestly I've not seen many of the teams that people were so desperately trying to preserve. In other words, it was an empty argument used to try and strengthen the need for Aldaron's Proposal, and I believe the same is being done with the Genies to ensure that Drizzle remains.

Only some people echoed the statement that everything would be fine after SwSw was gone. Many, including figures like Reachzero for instance (if I remember correctly) thought that the SwSw ban would not be enough to balance Drizzle for the reasons already discussed. Again I emphasize that Drizzle itself is not something I am directly aiming to preserve, but my ideology about the issue pushes me to the stance I take, as I outlined last post. If a convincing argument was posted that Reuniclus alone makes stall utterly unviable, I would be 100% behind its banning to preserve the viability of that playstyle, for instance, it's not a special case.

Rain stall was tbh less of a playstyle worth protecting than the new form of Drizzle offence presumed to emerge (as it has) but fewer people seemed to address this in the discussion I admit. Though Rain Stall is rare, I know that at least one voter made reqs with it the round we implemented AP, so purely based on the uncommonness of such a strategy I would hesistate to devalue it.

EDIT: Basically, the only concrete figure we have to go on is the recent vote on Drizzle last suspect test. The changes since then have been V-Create Victini arriving and Blaziken leaving. I fail to see any developments in the situation that suddenly means that Drizzle is broken, since it was voted OU by a fair majority last round. On that basis, the above is all theorymon, just for reference.