np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Texas Cloverleaf]

@Curtains

I've played with it, and against it since the start of BW and while I beleive it is certainly very powerful I do not believe it is broken. Scraf Mamoswine for example, not only fills a small and necessary niche on rain teams for example, counters Garchomp with the use of Icicle Spear, breaking the sub and damaging/killing the Chomp inside. The main thing to make sure is that you have a poke or two to handle Chomp, the same with any other dangerous sweeper.

I've also seen you and others bitch about Garchomp without acknowledgin the arguments that have been presented against it each time it is brought up, none of which I have the time to go digging for at the moment (since the obvious response is to petulantly demand the presentation of those arguments).

Before I deign to take your argument seriously, post the reasons that you beleive it is broken and reasons checks to those issues dont work.


Adressing your points, Sand Veil is certainly a strong part of Garhomps identity but cna a)be removed by the use of other weathers, or b) be handled by the use of a secondary check to Garchomp, either of which are standard on a decent team.

PLease explain how it makes the meta stall-driven when the majority of such teams have fallen off the map.

Finally, Garhomp has become subject to the speed creep. It can be beaten handiliy by things such as the Lati@s, the genies, Raikou et al. If you run something that is fodder for Garchomp, you ensure you have a method to deal with it, examples being Toxic Spikes or Perish Song.

 

[Hallow]

Dear Curtains,

There is a thread in the PR forums that is called "Characteristics of a desirable metagame", written by DougJustDoug. What does it say there, you ask? In layman's terms:

We don't care about your whims or your fun, no bans unless the fate on the game hangs on them.

The thread also includes, for your enjoyment, a mention of Sirlin's "Playing to win". A series of articles that serves neatly to illustrate WHY this position is taken.

Read the thread, click the link. Then you may continue your exposition on why you don't like the current metagame.

 

[alexwolf]

I also agree that raikaria definitely has a point!Ferrothorn is a large defensive threat and even though he is not broken in any way(just very good in my opinion)he is much more suspect worthy than other pokes like reuniclus or excadrill right now...

Anyway i think that the metagame right now is in a healthy enough phase,so i am also supporting the delay of the suspect test by a month...

And last but not least i support the removal of aldaron's proposal and the banning of the individual sweepers that are broken under rain conditions(of course aldaron's proposal is a fine solution if the only other solution that people can think of is banning drizzle entirely).Also i support thorhammer's proposal for banning the combination of evasion raising abilities and their respective weather inducing abilities!

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I would only support the removal of Aldarons Proposal and individual testing if and only if the month long break showed that there wasn't anything hugely pressing.

In my opiniond Aldarons Proposal rectified Rains broken ability and allowed Sun and Sand to compete evenly with rain.

 

[jas61292]

And last but not least i support the removal of aldaron's proposal and the banning of the individual sweepers that are broken under rain conditions(of course aldaron's proposal is a fine solution if the only other solution that people can think of is banning drizzle entirely).Also i support thorhammer's proposal for banning the combination of evasion raising abilities and their respective weather inducing abilities!

Yay, someone else who has my view on Aldaron's Proposal. Banning individuals is a much better solution than banning combos. However, I don't like the evasion idea. If Alderon's Proposal is repealed, the additional usage of rain will mostly mitigate the need for something like that anyways. But if not, people are really just using that as an excuse to hinder Garchomp (and to a lesser extent Sand Veil Gliscor). If you can prove that Pokemon like Sandslash and Glaceon, or anyone else for that matter, is broken because of it then we can talk about its ban. But if not, always go for individual Pokemon before Abilities.

I would only support the removal of Aldarons Proposal and individual testing if and only if the month long break showed that there wasn't anything hugely pressing.

In my opiniond Aldarons Proposal rectified Rains broken ability and allowed Sun and Sand to compete evenly with rain.

OK, I guess I should really state my full opinion on rain.

1) Weather cannot be broken
2) Individual Pokemon in weather may be broken
3) Ban individual broken Pokemon, not strategies.

Basically, what we have done by banning the Drizzle + SS combo is prevented the metagame from evolving as it should have. Yes, it is very possible that we would end up with a rain dominated metagame, but the only real problem with that is that people are not used to it. Sure, Swift Swim users would probably be top OU threats, but then the metagame would develop around them to find counters. And if Pokemon like Kingdra and Ludicolo don't have any real counters, then we ban them. Maybe Floatzel comes in and becomes a top threat in their place. But if he just really good and not broken, then there is no reason to prevent it. I understand that people may be scared of somthing like this because it could drastically change the way Pokemon is played, but if this is how it wants to naturally develop, we shouldn't stop it. We are here to decide what IS good and should be used, not what SHOULD BE good.

 

[Ulevo]

Today on Smogon's list of complaints we have:

• Excadrill
• Reuniclus
• Gorebyss
• Garchomp
• Latios
• Tyranitar
• Ferrothorn
• Drizzle

I feel like we're playing survivor, waiting to see who gets hated most and voted off the Smogon island first.

 

[Ewil]

How about rotom-w ? I hate it more then ferrothorn. Ferr can be handled thanks to some special move, a substitute or a taunt. There a lot of threats that can be used to fight against ferrothorn. On the other hand, rotom-w can be beated only by a strong non-resisted special attack, a toxic, or a grass attack. It can will-o, toxic, t-wave, trick, high special attack you, strong and good STAB and under the rain, hydro pump is so frustrating.

 

[Mishra]

1) Weather cannot be broken

Agree to disagree.

2) Individual Pokemon in weather may be broken

Agreed.

Basically, what we have done by banning the Drizzle + SS combo is prevented the metagame from evolving as it should have. Yes, it is very possible that we would end up with a rain dominated metagame, but the only real problem with that is that people are not used to it.

If this happens, nonweather teams, in my opinion will be nonresistant, aside from maybe a couple of niche trick room teams, or a really really well built stall team. As someone who play nonweather (and even then, my team got so much better with Abomasnow), the hardest match up for most nonweather teams is sun, because of chlorophil. with no way to "turn off" the sun, chlorophyll sweepers like venasuar or the sawsbuck are really tough to deal with. Add rain teams with SwSw, and now instead of being weak to one weather, your weak to two.

But if he just really good and not broken, then there is no reason to prevent it. I understand that people may be scared of somthing like this because it could drastically change the way Pokemon is played, but if this is how it wants to naturally develop, we shouldn't stop it. We are here to decide what IS good and should be used, not what SHOULD BE good

I could be wrong about Aldron's proposal, but I think it was made because drizzle was considered for getting the axe. considering how strong rain still is, giving them their swsw back is probably not a good idea.

 

[Ewil]

I'm not say that rotom-w is broken.
I only say that i think that rotom-w is a more dangerous threat then Ferrothorn.
None of them are broken.

Latios can be broken
Deo-S can be broken
and even Farfetch'd is too broken, please bro, instant-ban that monster.

not rotom or ferro :/

 

[jas61292]

If this happens, nonweather teams, in my opinion will be nonresistant, aside from maybe a couple of niche trick room teams, or a really really well built stall team. As someone who play nonweather (and even then, my team got so much better with Abomasnow), the hardest match up for most nonweather teams is sun, because of chlorophil. with no way to "turn off" the sun, chlorophyll sweepers like venasuar or the sawsbuck are really tough to deal with. Add rain teams with SwSw, and now instead of being weak to one weather, your weak to two.

I'm sorry if this offends you and the teams you like, but our goal is not to make every single type of strategy viable. If you look back at 4th gen, with the exception of Pokemon who were only used on weather teams, many analyses just assumed that Sandstorm would be permanently up. But did that mean everyone had to run a Sand strategy? No.

It is possible that with a repeal of Alderon's proposal that Rain would be the predominant weather in 5th gen, but that doesn't mean the only strategies would require you to use it. The metagame would just adapt to take the Rain into account. Fire Pokemon would get less use, and Water and Grass would get more. But in the end as long as we remove any Pokemon who are broken under those conditions, the metagame will stabilize. It might not look at all like the metagame you think of now, but it would be perfectly good.

People just need to understand that the current metagame is in no way superior to a rain dominant one, and let it run its course. And if that means Landrous is UU while Seaking is OU, so be it.

(OK, maybe the Seaking part was a bit of an overstatement)

 

[Benlisted]

I'm sorry if this offends you and the teams you like, but our goal is not to make every single type of strategy viable. If you look back at 4th gen, with the exception of Pokemon who were only used on weather teams, many analyses just assumed that Sandstorm would be permanently up. But did that mean everyone had to run a Sand strategy? No.

Personally I interpret the diversity criterion of the desirable pokemon metagame as incorporating not just a variety of viable mons but a variety of viable team archetypes. Indeed, Aldaron's Proposal set the scene for this, by preserving the Rain playstyle as a whole rather than eliminating it altogether by banning Drizzle. By this merit, to some extent it is our goal to make sure one strategy is not dominant.

Yes, not every strategy will be equal, but it is certainly a detriment to the state of the game if one is vastly superior to every other, or some key archetypes are simply not viable at all, and this is what AP fixed without banning the not broken on its own Drizzle and killing Rain entirely.

 

[Meru]

Since when does throwing out the most obscure calcs justify a pokemon being banned?

 

[jas61292]

Personally I interpret the diversity criterion of the desirable pokemon metagame as incorporating not just a variety of viable mons but a variety of viable team archetypes.

I agree. Diversity is important, and not just in individuals. But that's why I brought up 4th gen Sand. Just because a weather is always there does not mean that the only viable strategies revolve around it. Maybe those other strategies have yet to be discovered, but they will exist. All that will really change under a rain dominant environment is who the top threats are. It's not like we won't ban anyone who is broken. It's just that Pokemon like Floatzel might take the role that Pokemon like Excadrill currently serve.

 

[Benlisted]

I agree. Diversity is important, and not just in individuals. But that's why I brought up 4th gen Sand. Just because a weather is always there does not mean that the only viable strategies revolve around it. Maybe those other strategies have yet to be discovered, but they will exist. All that will really change under a rain dominant environment is who the top threats are. It's not like we won't ban anyone who is broken. It's just that Pokemon like Floatzel might take the role that Pokemon like Excadrill currently serve.

True, a meta revolving around Rain and beating it would be OK as long as it were not incredibly centralised and non-diverse (which tbh it probably would be, but just in theory). However, I do see that Aldaron's proposal was a quick fix to a real problem - the awesome trio of Rain sweepers who could demolish all opposition. This could have been fixed by the lengthy process of testing SwSwers one by one and banning them as they were found to be broken, but purely for the sake of finding a vaguely balanced meta in a reasonable time the choice was made to clause them out (since it is entirely possible things like Belly Drum Poliwrath, Shell Smash Omastar and Gorebyss etc would simply rise to take the place of Kingdra and friends and still prove broken, lengthening the process even more).

Now, I wholly agree with you that AP is not ideal by a long way given the precedent it sets, but for the time being I am content with it as it served the purpose for which it was intended - and once the meta otherwise stabilises (and stagnates, possibly becoming boring for us players) we can re-evaluate the proposal and alter it by banning only some swift swimmers. I'm not sure what your opinion is on if we should do this now, but I personally see it as a minor issue compared to achieving balance in the current meta.

 

[jas61292]

Now, I wholly agree with you that AP is not ideal by a long way given the precedent it sets, but for the time being I am content with it as it served the purpose for which it was intended - and once the meta otherwise stabilises (and stagnates, possibly becoming boring for us players) we can re-evaluate the proposal and alter it by banning only some swift swimmers. I'm not sure what your opinion is on if we should do this now, but I personally see it as a minor issue compared to achieving balance in the current meta.

For the most part I think doing that could work. However, the major problem I see in that is that when we do test out the SwSwers, it might cause Pokemon who may have been banned in the process of stabilizing the metagame to no longer be broken. SB Blaziken for example would be a lot less of a threat in a more perma-rain environment. So, the if we ever are going to do something, then the earlier it is done, the fewer other things we will have to re-do.

 

[JSND]

I must agree on runi and dory is less suspect worthy than natts despite i think natts is less broke tha dory. However yeah both i not broken at all in my views.
In fact, i dont find a thing being broken. All is ballanced with just some top threats everyday. Diversity wise, the meta is fairly diverse enough too tbh.

 

[666lumberjack]

Of Ulevo's list, a few posts above, I think Reuniclus is possibly broken, but not definately and Gorebyss is maybe too good. The most dangerous team I've ever face in that vein was Dual Screen Deo-S, Dual Screen Memento Latios, Gorebyss, Huntail (yes, BOTH of them) Garchomp and Espeon. It basically absolutetly ensures Garchomp gets +2/+2/+2 or usually more. He will get dual screens up, anything trying to Taunt or Roar/Whirlwind gets forced out by Baton Passing to Espeon(who can then Baton Pass back to somebody else)and dragon tail is blocked by substitute. suffice to say, if you can't deal with +2/+2/+2 Chomp, you probably just lost. Also, he can run some bulk because he doesn't need that much speed so that non-ice shard priority is shrugged off.
All in all the most douch-ey team I've ever faced. The guy himself 100% admitted it was retarded, which I thought was sporting. So Yeah, Reuniclus and Gorebyss are my suspects. Now just to get high enough to actually vote...

 

[Benlisted]

Of Ulevo's list, a few posts above, I think Reuniclus is possibly broken, but not definately and Gorebyss is maybe too good. The most dangerous team I've ever face in that vein was Dual Screen Deo-S, Dual Screen Memento Latios, Gorebyss, Huntail (yes, BOTH of them) Garchomp and Espeon. It basically absolutetly ensures Garchomp gets +2/+2/+2 or usually more. He will get dual screens up, anything trying to Taunt or Roar/Whirlwind gets forced out by Baton Passing to Espeon(who can then Baton Pass back to somebody else)and dragon tail is blocked by substitute. suffice to say, if you can't deal with +2/+2/+2 Chomp, you probably just lost. Also, he can run some bulk because he doesn't need that much speed so that non-ice shard priority is shrugged off.
All in all the most douch-ey team I've ever faced. The guy himself 100% admitted it was retarded, which I thought was sporting. So Yeah, Reuniclus and Gorebyss are my suspects. Now just to get high enough to actually vote...

Just pointing out that Espeon cannot run Baton Pass and MB outside of DW, since BP is a prevo move (or egg, I forget) and since Espy is currently only released as a male Espy not Eevee, it's incompatible.

 

[Thorhammer]

Ferrothorn is broken because it makes Pokemon carry Hidden Power Fire and other random Fire attacks? Hm, what does that sound like...

Ferrothorn is one of two top-tier threats that is 4x weak to Fire, and both of them cause random Fire moves to be used. It wasn't an issue for Scizor before, it isn't an issue for Scizor now, and it isn't an issue for Ferrothorn now. Unless you have a good alternative strategy to use, you're going to need something with a Fire-type move. That's just part of playing in the current metagame. With Team Preview, you can see if the opponent has a Ferrothorn or Scizor on their team. If they do, then you need to keep something alive that's capable of defeating them until you can do so. If you fail to defeat either threat before losing the Pokemon you need to defeat them, the battle will be that much more difficult, if you even still have a chance of winning at all. That's true when facing any top-tier Pokemon once its checks are removed. It's why they're top-tier, and it's part of how the metagame, and in fact this game as a whole, works. Ferrothorn doesn't deviate from that at all; there's nothing about Ferrothorn that's broken in the slightest.

 

[666lumberjack]

@Benlisted maybe it didn't have baton pass then. I only saw it in team preview because my only Phazing was Gyarados's Dragon Tail and he managed to pass +4/+4/+4 to Chomp and wreck my whole team. I just assumed that was why he was using Espeon. Still a horrible team. +2/+2 Espy is damn good regardless.

 

[Mishra]

But did that mean everyone had to run a Sand strategy? No.

In all fairness, sand plays two roles in gen 5: One is that we now have pokemon who get a sand boost, aside from the sand veil (excadril and landlos). The second thing is that ttar has the bulk and power to fight other weather, which is why he is by far, superior to hippo.

It is possible that with a repeal of Alderon's proposal that Rain would be the predominant weather in 5th gen, but that doesn't mean the only strategies would require you to use it. The metagame would just adapt to take the Rain into account. Fire Pokemon would get less use, and Water and Grass would get more. But in the end as long as we remove any Pokemon who are broken under those conditions, the metagame will stabilize. It might not look at all like the metagame you think of now, but it would be perfectly good.

That's complete speculation. Rain teams with SwSw have the best oppertunity of the other two weathers, with both a speed boost and an extra stab, and if that did end up happening, rather than try to take into account a team to beat all weathers, I probably wouldn't be the only one who would just be better off running rain, and try to win the weather wars.

Second off, no worry about offending. I like debating, and seeing you guys bring things up I may have over looked (or others have) is a good system to work with.

People just need to understand that the current metagame is in no way superior to a rain dominant one, and let it run its course. And if that means Landrous is UU while Seaking is OU, so be it.

(OK, maybe the Seaking part was a bit of an overstatement)

Considering a LOT of people are not happy with how dominant ALL weather is now (myself included), I seriously doubt a meta dominated by ONE weather would be anything more than lousy...

 

[SupremeDirt]

Considering a LOT of people are not happy with how dominant ALL weather is now (myself included), I seriously doubt a meta dominated by ONE weather would be anything more than lousy...

ADV OU.

Actually DP OU as well, since hail sucked.

Would it really be detrimental if Drought, Drizzle, and Sand Stream were banned, and Snow Warning were left?

That could be an interesting experiment.

 

[Mishra]

ADV OU.

Sand was hardly dominating. It was common, but there were plenty of other strategies, including damp/heat rock weather teams, nonweather teams, and stall was a lot more of a presence.

 

[jas61292]

In all fairness, sand plays two roles in gen 5: One is that we now have pokemon who get a sand boost, aside from the sand veil (excadril and landlos). The second thing is that ttar has the bulk and power to fight other weather, which is why he is by far, superior to hippo.

So I will start out by saying that I am currently, in fact one of those people who play Sand. So I do understand that. But I was more refering to Sand in gen 4 being dominant, but not making other strategies unviable.

And I like Hippo more...

That's complete speculation. Rain teams with SwSw have the best oppertunity of the other two weathers, with both a speed boost and an extra stab, and if that did end up happening, rather than try to take into account a team to beat all weathers, I probably wouldn't be the only one who would just be better off running rain, and try to win the weather wars.

Basically what I think you are not seeing in my post is that I am not talking about other weathers when it comes to strategies. If rain does dominate, it will just become natural, and strategies will take it into account, regardless of if they are using SwSwers or not. You don't necessarily need to run a different weather to take out rain.

Considering a LOT of people are not happy with how dominant ALL weather is now (myself included), I seriously doubt a meta dominated by ONE weather would be anything more than lousy...

Once again let me just point back to gen 4. I would like to think that, at least after a while, people were mostly happy with the metagame, even with it dominated by just one weather. In fact if one weather does dominate, it will end the whole "keep your weather inducer alive" battles that everyone seems to hate. Sun and Hail would definitely still stay around by being very anti-metagame strategies, and I highly doubt Sand will ever go away fully with T-Tar being the one to induce it, but if the focus of battles shifts from setting weather to working with it, I actually think people will have a lot more fun.

 

[SupremeDirt]

Sand was hardly dominating. It was common, but there were plenty of other strategies, including damp/heat rock weather teams, nonweather teams, and stall was a lot more of a presence.

Irrelevant. It was the only weather. There was no stipulation to a metagame revolving around a single weather, only that a decent metagame with a single weather would be "lousy".