np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[jas61292]

1. I know weather teams have many pokemon in them but that wasn't what I was referring to. A weather team is a weather team. It doesn't matter what kind of pokemon you have in there. If it abuses weather it's a weather team. If it abuses rain it's a rain team. If it abuses sun it's a sun team. If it abuses Hail it sux. (:P lol I'm kidding)

That is just blatantly untrue. Though if you want to go by that logic, then a non-weather team is a non-weather team, and even if it was impossible to use non-weather teams in this metagame (which is not true), then the 3 common styles of this meta is more diverse than last gen's 2. So what's your point? Either weather teams are not all the same, or they are, and that's what makes the meta game diverse.

2. You twist my words. I suppose it would be possible to come to that conclusion given the way I said it but that's not the way I meant it. I never said that a team is broken just because you can't find a counter for it. This isn't gen 3 anymore and there are just way to many pokemon to truly find a counter for any one team. What I was saying was it's difficult to adapt to the weather metagame because there aren't enough checks to weather. Rain especially is making it really difficult to adapt simply because with all the viability rain has to offer it's extremely difficult to find ways to get around rain. I'd like to know some of the options besides Nattorei (Who again is not the all time check for rain. As soon as it's gone you may as well have quit.) I myself have tried many times to adapt to the metagame. I've tried many non-weather teams and have thus far failed to get anywhere. You know based on my arguments that I won't use an actual weather team. Call me stubborn call me foolish but it's just the way I am and I'd call you close-minded for making such a suggestion in the first place.

As I said before, you don't need to have a weather team to use Pokemon that are good in weather. For rain specifically, there are two main types offensive threats, Water moves and Thunder. It is true that it is hard to find someone who counters both, but grass types in general do a decent job. Bulky waters can beat water users, and any ground type can beat Thunder abusers. Very few guys can actually do both. Or go on the offensive, and use someone like Starmie with Thunder. Other than Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, Starmie can beat almost every common rain Pokemon one on one.

3. Think about what your saying for a second. To ban many pokemon who are otherwise unbroken because their broken in rain. I understand that many pokemon would return to being unviable but think about your own statement for a second. The common factor in all of those pokemon bans would be weather. If people decided to go with the plan to make Drizzle SwSw legal again and then start banning things that we proved aren't broken outside of drizzle that'd be silly. Hell one of Blaziken's reasons for banning was because of sun. (I'm not saying it wasn't broken for other reasons I'm simply stating a reason that's revalant to this disscussion.) How many pokemon need to be banned because of weather for you to get it through your skull that Weather is the problem not the pokemon?

People just need to get it in their head that weather is just part of the meta game, so if someone is broken in weather, they are just broken in the metagame. You ban things that are broken, and that's it. You don't manipulate the metagame to make things you don't want broken to not be.

I have said this exact line a few times already, but I will say it again:

Our job is to determine what is good, not what should be good.

We are not going to change the metagame just to make certain things better than others.

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

Rain Stall is a little more diverse, with Rain Dish Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, SubSeed Ludicolo/Parasect, and Hydration Vaporeon, but that is about it as well, and it pales in comparison to the amount of Rain Offense I see. It's like Rain teams were back in 4th gen OU - they were there, but not so common compared to other types of teams.

DS Toxicroak is popular on rain stall nowadays too,though namely on wi-fi

 

[KurashiDragon]

That is just blatantly untrue. Though if you want to go by that logic, then a non-weather team is a non-weather team, and even if it was impossible to use non-weather teams in this metagame (which is not true), then the 3 common styles of this meta is more diverse than last gen's 2. So what's your point? Either weather teams are not all the same, or they are, and that's what makes the meta game diverse.

Every single weather team follows a similar pattern in that it all revolves around using weather in some form of team combo.

In a weather dominated metagame that's what a non-weather team is. A non-weather team. You can divide it up into as many categories as you want but in a weather metagame that's just what a team that doesn't use use weather is.

When did I say that using a non-weather team was impossible? Never. I said it was difficult. I use a non-weather team and I do pretty good with it. It's difficult to use a non-weather team in this weather dominated metagame though. I beat my share of weather. It's not impossible. However, I've never gotten very far on the ladder with this team even though I got to 1250. As soon as I got there I faced 3 weather teams at once. I lost each of them and my ranking plumeted. I can beat weather teams but they're common to the point where the metagames boring, anyone with half a brain can use em, and they're just overbearing.

As I said before, you don't need to have a weather team to use Pokemon that are good in weather. For rain specifically, there are two main types offensive threats, Water moves and Thunder. It is true that it is hard to find someone who counters both, but grass types in general do a decent job. Bulky waters can beat water users, and any ground type can beat Thunder abusers. Very few guys can actually do both. Or go on the offensive, and use someone like Starmie with Thunder. Other than Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, Starmie can beat almost every common rain Pokemon one on one.

As I said before, said in my very last paragraph, and will keep stating, it's difficult to user a non-weather team not impossible as you keep thinking I stated. However, Weather does have a counter and that's weather. Other people are only using weather teams to specifically counter weather teams which is just bad.

Drizzle has 3 offensive options not 2. Include Hurricane. I know only 2 pokemon can use it successfully in rain (Tornadus and Dragonite) but when it's used it's on par or possibly even better than thunder. To every single one of your checks there is a common answer in your paragraph that just proves that rain is the top weather to the point of being broken. If bulky waters are giving you a hard time, use thunder. If bulky grounds are giving you a tough time to use thunder use a water pokemon's double stab water attacks. That very same starmie you stated can check weather does wonderful in weather with double stab Hydro Pump and Thunder so both checks to your rain would be gone in an instant. Even Nattorei and Rotom-w are checks. (Though Rotom-w I'd argue is actually a very good check) In the end Weather is to viable. Rotom would eventually go down from continous attacks without a viable recovery. (I feel you'd actually have to rely on it which doesn't seem right unless it was specifically put on your team to counter rain which would be the basis of overcentralization) As for Nattorei, as I stated Thundurous' hammer arm 2hkos it.

I'm not stating your checks to rain aren't good. If that were the case Nattorei wouldn't be a top threat in the metagame already. I'm simply stating it's not enough. Rain is still the top weather to the point of being borderline broken.

People just need to get it in their head that weather is just part of the meta game, so if someone is broken in weather, they are just broken in the metagame. You ban things that are broken, and that's it. You don't manipulate the metagame to make things you don't want broken to not be.

I have said this exact line a few times already, but I will say it again:

Our job is to determine what is good, not what should be good.

We are not going to change the metagame just to make certain things better than others.

Is is so unacceptable to think that mabye weather is bad for the metagame?

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[SupremeDirt]

Is it so unacceptable to think that maybe weather is good for the metagame?

 

[Woodchuck]

But we are changing the metagame to make it more balanced -.-
I myself believe that it is possible -- but very difficult -- to create a non-weather team. I peaked at around #150 with a clear skies full stall team, and I've had moderate success with a balanced team, but running weather just makes things so much easier.
But better? Not sure. I think that there are benefits to both -- non weather as well as weather -- and that it would be a good idea to stop looking for things to ban, or indeed, unban, and instead just allow the metagame to develop on its own. If the case is that the metagame is unbalanced, then...
Well, how I look at it, is that we can argue all we want about banning weather or banning individual abusers, but that will ultimately come down to a vote that will be precedent for Smogon policy later on. Would we ban permanent weathers, and bring the metagame into a state that I suspect would be very much like Gen 4? Or will we ban the individual abusers? In my honest opinion, a metagame without perma-weather would probably be more fun - at least for me. However, if we are trying to preserve the metagame of the 5th generation, which appears to be weather dominated, then we should take the attitude of bringing the strategies down a notch -- i. e. banning the very most broken abusers -- rather than decapitating entire playstyles.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Is it so unacceptable to think that maybe weather is good for the metagame?

When you consider just how much weather is being used on the po server yes. If you don't believe me get on the server and battle for a few hours. Count just how many weather teams you face out of the total number of battles you have.

Edit: I'll admit I kinda contradicted myself when I said in an earlier post to wait for stats to come up before making such a statement. When the stats come up (Hopefully tomorrow) I truely hope my words continue to be contradicted. (I don't really want the weather to go away. It just seems like every other battle I face is weather. It's boring and it's bad.)

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[jas61292]

When you consider just how much weather is being used on the po server yes. If you don't believe me get on the server and battle for a few hours. Count just how many weather teams you face out of the total number of battles you have.

Edit: I'll admit I kinda contradicted myself when I said in an earlier post to wait for stats to come up before making such a statement. When the stats come up (Hopefully tomorrow) I truely hope my words continue to be contradicted. (I don't really want the weather to go away. It just seems like every other battle I face is weather. It's boring and it's bad.)

OK, so basically what it comes down to is that you, and many other people, dislike a weather dominated metagame. However, weather has developed as the dominant force in fifth gen, and our job is to make the best possible metagame for everyone. Some people may not like the end result, but that is bound to happen no mater what we do. However, we cannot just completely alter the metagame just to make one group of people happy. If that was what everyone wanted, then we could, but I do not believe that is the case. I just do not believe that any weather can be called broken, and as such, any changes to get rid of it would be playing favorites.

sorry, I'm really new to the competitive battling scene, but wouldn't it just be easier to make a weatherless tier?

That would be nice. Don't get me wrong people, weather is by no means my favorite strategy, and I would enjoy a no weather tier. However, it isn't really feasible. Tiers are not exactly easy to make, and certainly not easy to maintain.

 

[Nanoswine]

All these anti-weather posts just throw up BS in their posts to prove their (lack of a) point.

Weather leads to a less diverse metagame: This has been disproved so many times it isn't funny. Can't wait for usage stats, try arguing this then.

It's impossible to beat Drizzle: If Drizzle was as good as you make it out to be, the only teams we would see would be Drizzle/Anti-Drizzle. That was Round 2. This is Round 4.

Weather teams are all the same thing: If this was the case, weather would make the meta boring. I hope I don't have to spell out for you all that not all weather teams are exactly the same. There are effective combinations that are common, but claiming that every single weather team is based around the same core involving a weather starter is just a lie.

Weather makes a ton of Pokemon broken: The only thing banned (or likely to be) where weather was a factor was Drizzle + Swift Swim. Ironically, the fact that weather makes Pokemon powerful leads to a more diverse metagame.

There are so many more arguments that are based in fallacy or lies that I am not going to even bother with. I understand that you have a position you want to argue, but don't pull facts out of your ass to prove it.

Also Kurashi what's with the languages o_O

 

[KurashiDragon]

@AlphaSpade

That would actually be a good idea and I'm pretty sure it's been suggested before. (PO did come up with a weatherless server which I believe is quite popular.) However, I think the reason it's being rejected is that it's just to complicated and nobody really wants to do it.

@Nanoswine

I really don't know. They just started popping up in my posts one day and I can't get rid of em. They either go away on their own or an admin does it. It's quite annoying.

OK, so basically what it comes down to is that you, and many other people, dislike a weather dominated metagame. However, weather has developed as the dominant force in fifth gen, and our job is to make the best possible metagame for everyone. Some people may not like the end result, but that is bound to happen no mater what we do. However, we cannot just completely alter the metagame just to make one group of people happy. If that was what everyone wanted, then we could, but I do not believe that is the case. I just do not believe that any weather can be called broken, and as such, any changes to get rid of it would be playing favorites.

What it really comes down to is how much is weather used, how little do people like the metagame, and how much do peoples personal beliefs come into play with weather?

I believe weather is overbearing. To many pop up when your laddering on PO. It doesn't make for a fun metagame in the slightest. While it is true that weather increases the viability of alot of pokemon it also decreases the viability of non-weather teams to the point where it's extremely hard to take down a weather team with a Non-weather team. (It's certainly not impossible but it's difficult to do) without a specialized team member. I also believe Rain is to powerful. Even without SwSw the pokemon in weather are to viable and to powerful under said Drizzle. Drought and Sand are fine but Drizzle is to powerful. If we ban Drizzle or even all perma-weather outright I believe it would lead to an enhanced gen 4 copy but I also believe that would be better than a weather dominated metagame. Some people aren't going to like that but would the majority like that or not like that. Someone hurry up and make a poll about this so we can find out. Alot of arguments would be solved.

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[Woodchuck]

That would actually be a good idea and I'm pretty sure it's been suggested before. (PO did come up with a weatherless server which I believe is quite popular.) However, I think the reason it's being rejected is that it's just to complicated and nobody really wants to do it.

Actually, it's not that popular of a server, because weather is just arbitrarily removed from the metagame. It's far from standard.

I believe weather is overbearing. To many pop up when your laddering on PO. It doesn't make for a fun metagame in the slightest. While it is true that weather increases the viability of alot of pokemon it also decreases the viability of non-weather teams to the point where it's extremely hard to take down a weather team with a Non-weather team. (It's certainly not impossible but it's difficult to do) without a specialized team member. I also believe Rain is to powerful. Even without SwSw the pokemon in weather are to viable and to powerful under said Drizzle. Drought and Sand are fine but Drizzle is to powerful. If we ban Drizzle or even all perma-weather outright I believe it would lead to an enhanced gen 4 copy but I also believe that would be better than a weather dominated metagame. Some people aren't going to like that but would the majority like that or not like that. Someone hurry up and make a poll about this so we can find out. Alot of arguments would be solved.

But that's the thing. People want to ban weather, perhaps because they are used to the less weather-centric gen 4. Gen 5 is, and will always be, different from gen 4. It should be that way.
Actually, what I've found in this metagame is that "diversity" roughly translates to "a host of threats that can all destroy your team, depending on what's on it." I think that B/W has introduced so many threats that it's become increasingly difficult to manage them. (No, I'm not suggesting that teams should be able to counter every threat. That hasn't really been viable since ADV.)

Now, at any moment, you can be put at an extreme disadvantage with your team matchup compared to your opponent's team. It's coming down more to what you were lucky enough to bring with your team that can beat whatever your opponent has at the time, rather than the skill or even feasibility of "playing around" disadvantages. I think, again, that we need to take a break from what essentially is a constant suspect test to give people time to adapt to the sheer difficulty of covering things. It's possible that people are simply nominating what their team has difficulty covering at the time -- if the metagame settles down into an extremely centralized game around a select few pokemon that "work", then we'll know for sure that something is unbalanced. Until then, we're just pointing fingers at what we can't cover with our teams right now.

 

[liamlamp815]

Ban weather. Obviously the majority doesn't want it.

That would also end this mind numbing debate. Are there not other things to discuss?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Ban weather. Obviously the majority doesn't want it.

That would also end this mind numbing debate. Are there not other things to discuss?

Drought had a ~75% OU vote and Drizzle, ~65%. The majority wants both of them, and lol Sand/Hail.


And no, there aren't "other things to discuss". What we discuss is the metagame, weather conditions are an essential part of the metagame, so we discuss them. Unless you want us to discuss how to end poverty or something...

 

[Hrothdane]

Ban weather. Obviously the majority doesn't want it.

That would also end this mind numbing debate. Are there not other things to discuss?

I was content to just lurk moar and look at the arguments presented in this thread, but this just drives me crazy.

The debate wouldn't be so intense if "obviously the majority doesn't want [weather]." Also, if the majority didn't want it, wouldn't they have banned drizzle outright instead of going with Aldaron's proposal?

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, but I would sure like to know how you know that the majority of competitive Pokemon players obviously don't want weather. Do you have some data to back up your claim?

Have you surveyed the entire competitive Pokemon community using unbiased, scientifically-sound questions?

Do you have usage statistics?

Testimonials from professional metagame analysts?

An immense surplus of anecdotal evidence?

A couple friends from your college lounge that agree with you?

Blind faith?


This post isn't only targeted at you, but at ANYONE making sweeping, baseless generalizations that imply supreme knowledge of the metagame. Stop making untested claims and look to the logic of the arguments.

One last note. Whether we keep weather--and which ones if we do keep it--determines the very nature and style of the Gen V metagame, so no, there isn't anything else to discuss until this is resolved.

 

[liamlamp815]

I was content to just lurk moar and look at the arguments presented in this thread, but this just drives me crazy.

The debate wouldn't be so intense if "obviously the majority doesn't want [weather]." Also, if the majority didn't want it, wouldn't they have banned drizzle outright instead of going with Aldaron's proposal?

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, but I would sure like to know how you know that the majority of competitive Pokemon players obviously don't want weather. Do you have some data to back up your claim?

Have you surveyed the entire competitive Pokemon community using unbiased, scientifically-sound questions?

Do you have usage statistics?

Testimonials from professional metagame analysts?

An immense surplus of anecdotal evidence?

A couple friends from your college lounge that agree with you?

Blind faith?


This post isn't only targeted at you, but at ANYONE making sweeping, baseless generalizations that imply supreme knowledge of the metagame. Stop making untested claims and look to the logic of the arguments.

One last note. Whether we keep weather--and which ones if we do keep it--determines the very nature and style of the Gen V metagame, so no, there isn't anything else to discuss until this is resolved.

I understand what you are saying but to clarify more what i was getting at is this repetitve back and forth debate has been going nowhere and I see the sma earguments over and over.

I felt the majority didn't want weather because quite literally the majority of posts I see are complaining about it.
I feel like there are other things to discuss besides weather in the metagame and the debate over waether I find to be kind of annoying unless I see a new argument.

 

[Sajak]

II felt the majority didn't want weather because quite literally the majority of posts I see are complaining about it.

That could simply be because the majority of posters of posting to voice their disdain for weather. People don't typically come in here saying something like, "Jirachi is so balanced, it should stay OU!" A pretty silly example, sure, but people usually only speak when they want change. If things are going smoothly, there won't be much discussion over anything, especially on a web forum based on competition.

 

[KurashiDragon]

@ Mario With Lasers

While the majority didn't vote to ban The weather suspects they don't represent the entire community. They got to the top pf the ladder so only their voices can be heard. I'm pretty sure there are biased voters during suspect rounds.

To let the entire community get their voice heard I propose we make a fair unbiased and smart poll on weather. I'd do it myself but I'm having posting problems if that weren't entirely obvious from the bottom of my post. :(

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[Deaga]

It's obvious that only the best players should make tiering decisions. Otherwise, we'd be full of shit like SKARMBLISS BAN!!!! and NO LEECH SEED VILOPLUMES!!!!

We need informed players to make this kind of decisions.

 

[Crim09]

Sand Veil on Garchomp is extremely abusive when you combine it with the sheer power and speed that goes along with it

The Substitute, Swords Dance, and 2 attack set is a good example of this. All you have to do is switch into a pokemon that wont do much damage, banded and slower then your chomp. Then just sub down until they miss in order to get a free SD or switch out. A lot of chomp counters are then eliminated because they might be faster and able to kill it but now that it is now behind a sub it will get a free hit on them. If they are slower then it can either SD behind the sub and sub until you miss or get a +2 attack against you.

Beyond that there sheer amount of game I have had where missing chomp has changed the tide of the game is enormous. 1 Missed ice beam, ice fang, Draco Meteor, Outrage etc. can result in the counter getting slaughtered and then Garchomp sweeping. Even if you bring in a pokemon to switch weather so Sand Veil is not in effect it will most likely be SD fodder or severely crippled/dead by most of Garchomps attacks. The luck factor in sand veil is just not something that can be overlooked, and because chomp is so powerfull I think it deserves a ban. While luckk should remain somewhat a factor in competitive pokemon, Great stats + luck based ability + good movepool = a recipe for destruction and unstable counters.

Also another funny example, earlier I was able to baton pass a shell smash after killing the hippo that was going to roar, to a chomp. Who then dodged a whirlwind from skarm cause of sand veil and OHKO'd back with Fire Blast. Reliable counters/phazers are not so reliable.


Also want to add Specs Latios has no reliable counter, it can basically OHKO most things that aren't Steels/Blissey/Chansey. Pokemon that can't reliable recover are then worn down over time until they can no longer take the beating. If your opponent is good at keeping pressure on you then it can be overwhelming to deal with. Latios can freely switch out with little retaliation or send out another -2 DM to deal a finishing blow to weakened counters. It is easily revenge killed if you can get it to stay in, but not easily counterable. Last gen this was the arguement that ended up getting Mence and even Latios banned and I believe it still holds true. Not to mention the other sets it can run are just as deadly.

 

[TheAvenger]

if chomp goes then haxorus and hydreigon and conkeldur have to go by that same token. i only here complaints about the great power chomps weilds but the pokemon i just named are just as dangerous and somewhat broken if not more. haxorus's ddance set is quickly dangerous. hydreigon with timid nature 252 speed 252 spatk is deadly and conkeldur is....unspeakable. im not trying to stir the pot but i get tired of people whining about chomp and 9 times out of 10 its because they were on the receiving end of a garchomp induced rampage. i use to use garchomp back in gen 4 in ubers and i can say this. he was one of my stars one of my main pokes and he can be used to destroy teams but it requires tactfulness and cunning to predict your opponents switches and strategies. none of the pokemon i just named ensure a auto-win, but if used correctly they make great tools

 

[Blackdragonking]

if chomp goes then haxorus and hydreigon and conkeldur have to go by that same token. i only here complaints about the great power chomps weilds but the pokemon i just named are just as dangerous and somewhat broken if not more. haxorus's ddance set is quickly dangerous. hydreigon with timid nature 252 speed 252 spatk is deadly and conkeldur is....unspeakable. im not trying to stir the pot but i get tired of people whining about chomp and 9 times out of 10 its because they were on the receiving end of a garchomp induced rampage. i use to use garchomp back in gen 4 in ubers and i can say this. he was one of my stars one of my main pokes and he can be used to destroy teams but it requires tactfulness and cunning to predict your opponents switches and strategies. none of the pokemon i just named ensure a auto-win, but if used correctly they make great tools

Um...what? o_o

Hydregon is outclassed heavily by Latios and Latias and the presence of Salamence means even if Garchomp and the twins went back to Ubers, there'd still be faster threats that completely eat it alive. Given that dragon-resistant special walls are popular because of Latios, I fail to see how a more balanced but less powerful dragon is going to ever be uber in this metagame. Conkeldurr is very annoying, but he's by no means uber-category, and he's useful as a way to make sure Excadrill doesn't want to come out of his cave. Haxorus, I love the guy to pieces, but he's probably not even going to be OU unless Lati@s, Garchomp AND 'Mence all get banned, those 3-5 points of speed he's missing are really killing him with the absurd power levels at OU standard.

I'm thinking Haxorus might be a handy Ubers Darkhorse, though, since there's a lot of slower dragons for him to face off with up there...In standard play, though, probably Low OU-high UU. If Haxorus AND Hyrdeigon are both UU when it's finally completed, this is going to be an interesting meta to be a UU player in. :naughty:

 

[Thorhammer]

When you consider just how much weather is being used on the po server yes. If you don't believe me get on the server and battle for a few hours. Count just how many weather teams you face out of the total number of battles you have.

That couldn't be less relevant. Even if every single team must have a weather Pokemon or a weather move of some sort in order to be successful, that does not mean weather is at all bad for the metagame.

 

[UberOwn]

I'm hoping that Latios gets banned by a simple majority this round, so I can see Hydreigon getting more usage ( sigh, why are people saying that Hydreigon is outclassed by Latios ? )

 

[ToastTyrant13]

I'm hoping that Latios gets banned by a simple majority this round, so I can see Hydreigon getting more usage ( sigh, why are people saying that Hydreigon is outclassed by Latios ? )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfHBPusZg6E&feature=related

Anything Sazy does Lati does better, anything Sazy does Lati does too.



Latios - Draco Meteor / Surf / Ice Beam (or T-Bolt) / HP Fire

Sazandora - Draco Meteor / Surf / Dark Pulse / Fire Blast

Latios outclasses Sazandora because...

a) Better Speed
b) Better Special Attack
c) Resistant to fighting, much more common and threatening than dark.
d) Better movepool (Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, etc.)

Sazandora can be almost as good as Latios because...

a) Fire Blast over HP Fire
b) Not weak to Sucker Punch

That's about it. Latios just simply outclasses Sazandora.

I do agree with you that I hope Latios gets the boot.

Edit: Sorry, still used to Japanese names. Like 'em better. Sazandora / Sazy = Hydreigon.

 

[Aura Guardian]

You forgot the reasons that Hydreigon will NEVER be outclassed by Latios

U-turn
Slightly better physical bulk (though weaker special bulk) (92/90/90 vs 80/80/110)

 

[Acritter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfHBPusZg6E&feature=related

Anything Sazy does Lati does better, anything Sazy does Lati does too.



Latios - Draco Meteor / Surf / Ice Beam (or T-Bolt) / HP Fire

Sazandora - Draco Meteor / Surf / Dark Pulse / Fire Blast

Latios outclasses Sazandora because...

a) Better Speed
b) Better Special Attack
c) Resistant to fighting, much more common and threatening than dark.
d) Better movepool (Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, etc.)

Sazandora can be almost as good as Latios because...

a) Fire Blast over HP Fire
b) Not weak to Sucker Punch

That's about it. Latios just simply outclasses Sazandora.

I do agree with you that I hope Latios gets the boot.

Edit: Sorry, still used to Japanese names. Like 'em better. Sazandora / Sazy = Hydreigon.

You forgot
e) Resists Mach Punch

and

c) Resists Pursuit

It isn't a solid outclass. Sazandora is a very legitimate choice for a team that needs a Dark Pokemon more than a Psychic.