np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Davy Jones]

Salamence beats pretty much any Toxicroak without Ice Punch, thanks to Intimidate. Skarmory can either use Brave Bird or Whirlwind to damage or phaze it, respectively. Pretty much anything else with a powerful Ground-type or Flying-type attack can beat it unless hit on the switch with Ice Punch or by a +2 Sucker Punch when they try to attack. Slowbro doesn't care about even Sucker Punch thanks to massive physical bulk and Regenerator.

Toxicroak's a pretty awful Pokemon. I'm surprised it made it into OU and has actually managed to stay there. It's even bad in rain, which is literally the only reason to use it.

 

[Pocket]

Skarmory takes 30-35% from CB Haxorus's Outrage, so with Shed Shell it can pretty much dismantle Magnezone + Haxorus imo. Skarm needs to have 83% health to switch into Outrages, which shouldn't be too hard if it just spam Roost while Haxorus Outrages. It can stall ScarfHaxorus all day. With entry hazard damage and aggressive plays, Haxorus can be worn down and revenge killed.

I'd say Shed Shell Skarmory is the best answer to Hax + Mag in terms of defense. ScarfHeatran can soak up a CB Outrage and take out the locked Haxorus with Dragon Pulse, if you want an offensive answer.

 

[dori]

It's funny how the same logic you use to take down Haxorous via entry hazard damage and aggressive play can also be the downfall to Skarmory. You can easily predict Skarmory switches with Magnezone. Even if it switches out, it's taken 12% without healing. All you have to do is do this twice and Haxorous gets a clean take out of Skarmory. Of course this isn't throwing into effect if Haxorous users want to be brave and use Rivalry, as it Outrage damage is then 39-46%, meaning Skarmory can get 2HKO'd on the switch at 100% with SR. The best way to deal with Haxorous is the same as it is with all threats through the course of Pokemon history such as Salamence and Lucario in DP and Terrakion and Garchomp in BW, and that's too overwhelm it offensively and revenge kills. Let's face it, there's no safe switch in to many threats and we often have to use resort to high risk high reward means of killing things.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Drag + Mag is destroyed by Mamoswine. It outspeeds and kills Magnezone, and can do some major damage to the dragons with Ice Shard. Even with something like Politoed, Mamoswine can still destroy, as it outspeeds defensive and specs versions, and scarf srts can just be played around. As bluemon mentioned, Cloyster is also highly effective.

 

[Pocket]

You're right dori, but it is still true that Hax + Mag player would have to work much harder against a team with Shed Shell Skarmory than a regular team. A team without Shed Shell Skarmory would have to play aggressively to limit Haxorus's activity, but the player with this Skarmory can still overwhelm the opponent, but also has a fall-back plan if Haxorus manages to come in unscathed.

Are you arguing that Shed Shell is not worth replacing Leftovers to improve the chance against Hax + Mag? I'd probably agree on this point.

I don't like the Rivalry argument, because Skarmory can easily be female and Haxorus male or vice versa. I would hate to ruin Haxorus's destructive power just because of wrong gender. Moldbreaker seems much more consistent imo.

 

[Darusare]

Yea, that, too. But DragMag is pretty much a general strategy. Now that Garchomp is banned, I've seen variations of DragMag teams. They're not totally 100% carbon copies, although they may have initially started as one.

Copying teams has major issues with predictability. A copied team needs to be particularly effective to succeed even after being well-known. Some more clever players would change up moves or items to throw off people, so predictability can also be used as a slight advantage occasionally. People also miss out on the sense of ownership and satisfaction gained through succeeding with their own team. Discoveries of novel defensive / offensive cores comes from experimentation, so people who solely use other player's teams to win games are lagging behind.

I wouldnt argue that those people are falling behind per say
but its the whole laddering process that impedes creativity
i dont think much will change until suspect testing is over
because thats partially whats making the metagame kind of stagnant
that and weather

 

[Eggbert]

Drag mag doesn't depend on spamming physical outrage. Abusers like special hurricane / thunder Dragonite and LO Latios still work really well since mag can trap most Jirachi.

 

[tehy]

Yeah, i run shed shell skarmory too.

The deal with that is that if someone is basing a huge strategy around beating down X's counters (Exca, haxorus, landorus), they're going to run a bunch of team support for X and magnezone, which ensures that they will sweep your team. Shed shell stops that.

Also, it's so much fun to just basically flick someone off, and running shed shell is nice for mean lookers and wobb's anyhow.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

So, how do you peeps deal with Toxicroak?

Phazing immediately as it's almost always going to go for a sub/bulk up. It's pretty weak defensively, so if you can outspeed and have a super effective hit, you'll usually kill it. My personal answer is stopping the rain and then it's pretty much screwed without it's dry skin helping it. Ghosts are greatly effective against it if you play around sucker punch.

 

[Woodchuck]

If you're having trouble with Drag+Mag teams then you just need to run a Steel-type that beats Magnezone. (Protip: the only steel type that doesn't have a way to beat Magnezone is Skarmory)

As for Toxicroak, yeah Hippowdon's always a great pokemon to bring in. Skarmory Brave Birds it, and random Earthquakers beat it too. Toxicroak was always annoying when I ran Resttalk Gyara 9.9 because it walled my set. But Gyarados is actually an excellent switch-in if you carry Earthquake.

 

[Chieliee]

Salamence beats pretty much any Toxicroak without Ice Punch, thanks to Intimidate. Skarmory can either use Brave Bird or Whirlwind to damage or phaze it, respectively. Pretty much anything else with a powerful Ground-type or Flying-type attack can beat it unless hit on the switch with Ice Punch or by a +2 Sucker Punch when they try to attack. Slowbro doesn't care about even Sucker Punch thanks to massive physical bulk and Regenerator.

Toxicroak's a pretty awful Pokemon. I'm surprised it made it into OU and has actually managed to stay there. It's even bad in rain, which is literally the only reason to use it.

I must disagree here. SD/Ice Punch/Cross Chop/Sucker Punch@LO is a very effective set-up sweeper. After SR damage, it OHKO's specially defensive Skarmory more than 50% of the time with Cross Chop at +2, to show it's raw power. Scarf/Specs Rotom-W are OHKO'd by a +2 Sucker Punch, and so is Lati@s. Tyranitar, Ferrothorn and Politoed are all OHKO'd by Cross Chop. Gliscor is getting raped by a +2 Ice Punch. This set's main counter is Jellicent, which can WoW it, while you try to Sucker Punch it in vain.

 

[Ewil]

Yeah, Croak is a very good pkmn to use in rain.
Both BU and SD sets are so good if the counters are gone (and there aren't so much after an SD or some BU).

 

[TM13IceBeam]

If you're having trouble with Drag+Mag teams then you just need to run a Steel-type that beats Magnezone. (Protip: the only steel type that doesn't have a way to beat Magnezone is Skarmory)

As for Toxicroak, yeah Hippowdon's always a great pokemon to bring in. Skarmory Brave Birds it, and random Earthquakers beat it too. Toxicroak was always annoying when I ran Resttalk Gyara 9.9 because it walled my set. But Gyarados is actually an excellent switch-in if you carry Earthquake.

Ferrothorn?

He's pretty much 2HKO'd by HP Fire and can't do anything back to Mag...

 

[SJCrew]

I must disagree here. SD/Ice Punch/Cross Chop/Sucker Punch@LO is a very effective set-up sweeper. After SR damage, it OHKO's specially defensive Skarmory more than 50% of the time with Cross Chop at +2, to show it's raw power.

69.2% - 81.7%

Lucario can barely do that with a stronger base attack and a higher BP move. Where are you getting your numbers?

Scarf/Specs Rotom-W are OHKO'd by a +2 Sucker Punch, and so is Lati@s. Tyranitar, Ferrothorn and Politoed are all OHKO'd by Cross Chop. Gliscor is getting raped by a +2 Ice Punch. This set's main counter is Jellicent, which can WoW it, while you try to Sucker Punch it in vain.

If Eo's gay Gliscor set starts getting popular (saw three of them earlier), you're going to start seeing more max speed Gliscor, which is going to invalidate these "Gliscor doesn't run max Speed anymore" arguments. This is exactly how D/P started until Lucario got Ice Punch. Guess what became the standard set of today.

But regardless, this is not really an argument against Toxicroak. I don't care about it really. Just don't switch your Tangrowth that Sub/SD Acrobat Gliscor with Sand Veil. I'm not seeing a lot of counters for it. We may have to eat our words on the whole "Garchomp but not Sand Veil" ordeal.

 

[Ewil]

What's the set of this Gliscor ? I'm attempted too to run a Sand Veil Gliscor just for the surprise effect.

 

[pimpgangster]

I'm pretty sure that it's Sub/SD/Acro/Quake but don't quote me on that.

 

[Lee]

69.2% - 81.7%

Lucario can barely do that with a stronger base attack and a higher BP move. Where are you getting your numbers?

He pretty clearly said specially defensive Skarmory.

+2 Adamant LO Cross Chop vs 252/0 Skarmory = 90% - 106%

What's the set of this Gliscor ?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3647848&postcount=32

 

[SJCrew]

He sure did, my fault. But really, no one's using specially defensive Skarmory these days.

 

[jle1076]

Me because I like to survive + 1 focus blasts

 

[-Tsunami-]

I agree with Chieliee about Toxicroak. The Swords Dance set can sweep rain teams very easily, and it does major damage to any other type of team. +2 Cross Chop is nothing to laugh at, especially when the pokemon has Life Orb while gaining HP every turn.

Also, I've never tried a specially defensive Skarmory, although I might in the future. It just seems weird to me though, as if I want to use a Skarmory it's because I need a physical wall that can set up entry hazards and phaze. I'd rather it be able to take physical hits much better than hits on both sides of the spectrum (Blissey is completely different in this scenario because the special bulk of Skarmory is much better than the physical bulk of Blissey).

 

[Eggbert]

SpD Skarm is really bad now. You lose the ability to effectively handle things like Landorus and Excadrill. Even more so if you are running shed shell to deal with all of the dragmag. If you want to take on CM Virizion, use Jirachi or something else because Skarm can't spread its defense and take on special and physical attackers this gen.

Also for the Gliscor set, I'm guessing roost isn't legal over sub? Because you could just SD on the switch rather than waste HP on a sub and still have enough health to check stuff like Excadrill.

 

[Stratos]

it still is legal with that set, so roost/sub/many other things are tradable, as said in the set description.

 

[Woodchuck]

I've been having a lot of fun running this Gengar set as a partner to SubCM Latias:
Gengar @ Toxic Orb
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast
HP Fire
Trick

More often than not this Gengar will get a surprise kill on Scizor as well as crippling Blissey, and it kills Tyranitar and Ferrothorn too. By doing this it practically eliminates all of SubCM Latias's usual counters.

 

[Ewil]

I think that sub is more useful to protect against common threats switching in like rotom on glisc.
But if you have other pokemons that can handle Gliscor's common switch in, then, roost (if it is legal) can be a good option over sub.

I've been having a lot of fun running this Gengar set as a partner to SubCM Latias:
Gengar @ Toxic Orb
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast
HP Fire
Trick

More often than not this Gengar will get a surprise kill on Scizor as well as crippling Blissey, and it kills Tyranitar and Ferrothorn too. By doing this it practically eliminates all of SubCM Latias's usual counters.

I think that Toxic & Black Sludge can be more useful over Trick & Toxic Orb, since the only advantage that i see on the last two is that you can steal the opponent "random" leftovers and kill with poison more faster.

 

[meduso]

Using toxic orb + trick means blissey can't escape the poison with natural cure, though, which I imagine is the idea, as well as possibly bluffing choice.