This is not the way bans work. Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit (the burden of the proof lies on the accuser). Drizzle has been part of the metagame for quite a while and if now you want to ban it, then you have to prove it's broken.
I've read your thread and the matter that it regards, but from my perspective, those were never the real questions.
We had a debate about this earlier. While I agree with the idea of repealing Aldaron's proposal and taking complex bans off of the table for good, this entails an even greater evil, which is bringing Swift Swimmers back into the metagame to, quite literally, test the waters. Letting back even the likes of Qwilfish, who isn't broken on its own, but still fairly powerful, is still adding more power to Drizzle for no good reason and gives players even higher incentive to ban it. At this point, I think most people are done with the Swift Swimmers and are fine with Luvdisc and company banned under the clause.
For as much as I agree with this, Sand simply isn't doing its job this round. I'm seeing a lot of good players switch to Drizzle, which coincidentally gives them more incentive to abuse Thundurus. The ladder is just overflowing with Rain right now. It's awful.
"Counters."
Actually, iirc it was 39-32, with 6 votes not even considered due to not mattering at all. While those 6 votes could have been for banning Drizzle, they could also have been for not banning it, so it's possible it wasn't as close as you think.
IMO, it's not that we need to keep drizzle; it's that only Pokemon can be broken, so they should be banned. Considering how long people have been arguing about this, though, I doubt either side will budge on their opinions.
Wait, I'm confused. Sand is top dog, but Rain is overpowered? WTF!? That seems... odd.
That is a serious overstatement. The only "event horizon" we should need is those banned numerous Pokemon, and even then we don't know exactly how many Pokemon are actually broken, just a rough guesstimate of how many we think are broken. There's a difference, especially if we go with the fact that apparently everything that "abuses" Rain is broken, as if to say that we can't have a top powerful strategy that is just that: a top powerful strategy (even then, unless those 10% of teams with Politoed make up the top 10% of players, it's not a top strategy; can't know that though, so I'll just assume it is).
Red parts are also applicable to Drizzle, or it could be if the Anti-Drizzle supporters let it. Also, did you forget that Sand gives 1.5x SpD for Rock types? Maybe you did, since not as many Rock types can take advantage of it as the Pokemon that can take advantage of Drizzle, but that's basically giving them a resistance to every special attack in the game. We can only thank Arceus that Rock types usually have shitty SpD anyways. But that's a big point; many things get the same benefits from weather, but only a few of them can really use it at all, let alone abuse it to the point of brokenness. Those individuals that can abuse it to that point are what needs to be banned imo. Finally, on that last note about Drought, why does drought need the opportunity to flourish? If a strategy cannot deal with the current top strategy (assuming this is Drizzle, it's more likely to me that it is Sand), then it is unviable in the metagame, simple as that. To ban the top strategy just to allow strategies that it beats into the metagame is foolhardy, unless the top strategy is the only viable one, which it seems like it isn't, since Rain is not what's 21-25% of the metagame right now.
I think I could see this more if Drizzle and Sandstorm were closer in usage, and more of the metagame. For the past two months, however, Drizzle has been 1/10 of every team, while Sandstorm has been somewhere between 1/5 and 1/4 of it. That's a pretty sizable amount, which leads me to believe that there is more to it than "I run Sand to beat Rain" like you say. Drizzle hasn't received "several special treatments"; currently, 1 Pokemon has been banned for being broken under Drizzle, and 1 strategy has been banned that needs Drizzle to even exist, with this ban currently wanting to be repealed in order to ban the Pokemon that are broken instead of the general strategy.
As an added note, on the issue of testing Swift Swimmers, I am very disappointed that not a single post that even replied to mine said anything at all about my proposed solution. I mean, I didn't expect people to agree, but not even a mention? Really? Not even to tell me how terrible of an idea it is? First they only went on about some of the terrible parts of my first post, and then my next post only got comments from the metaphor. Constructive criticism and consideration, not alliteration guys, that's all I'm asking at minimum.
I agree, the way things are going now it's only a matter of time until something like excadrill or latios gets the right pool of voters, and banned. IMO if it is nominated 3 rounds in a row and voted OU it should not be up for nomination again.
Sand was the metagame because the only viable undicers were Sand inducers.
In my opinion, if something gets a simple majority and doesn't get a simple majority the next round, it should not be elligible to be a suspect until the status quo changes. That doesn't mean a ban of anything else would change the status quo. It would need to be the ban of a major check or counter to it. If you look at the DPP suspect process, which I would consider to be pretty successful, suspects only had two chances to be voted on (in Stage 2 and 3).
So we can determine what is broken...!Why do you blame drizzle for overpowering the SSers and not the SSers for overpowering drizzle???
Yeah, it was used by this one guy who told me to challenge him as proof of Swampert being amazing. He said balloon Excadrill with a jolly nature was the best set. Well, it didn't work out too well for him as you can see. >_>
Oh fuck me.
Drizzle provides infinite rain. This is a major step up from damp rock rain dance, as you can't stall out the turns, and a swift swimmer can pop in for a revenge kill or sweep at any time. Drizzle makes swift swimmers a constant threat. Also, if excadrill is making scarf use invalid you don't NEED swsw. Drizzle will be overpowered with the use of almost any decent water type sweeper. (obvious hyperbole)
I'm going to pretend that you didn't say that.
What bigger picture?
Huhwha? Not true? Explain. "Prove it"
You're arguing semantics. Drizzle is so much more than a speed boost.
Yes, we've had this debate before, but I don't believe we've ever finished it:
Um, no. Like I said earlier, Vaporeon is still a good Pokemon with Water Absorb, and won't be made unviable by Drizzle leaving. Even if it did (like Toxicroak would be), something else just as good, if not better would take its place. Something like Alomomola, for instance, who performs mostly the same support role as Vaporeon, but uses its Attack stat instead.
This argument again. "Metagame diversity" is not an objective most serious players would concern them with. Centralization is one matter, but worrying about how many otherwise mediocre are Pokemon making it to OU is completely missing the point of why we're doing this in the first place (hint: it has something to do with a balanced metagame most of us enjoy).
The fact that you don't understand it doesn't mean that it is ridiculous...Anyway i will try to explain even further...
Every claim in this paragraph had solid proofs to back it up!Anyway let me be more specific...I said that nor SS nor Drizzle are broken and i trusted that you could understand why...SS outside of drizzle is not broken!Drizzle without the SSers is not broken(as proven by the last suspect test).So the problem is somewhere else...You get it now?
What relevance has any of them to do with what i said???Did i said that damp rock rain dance is better thatn drizzle???No!
Whatever...
That drizzle is not broken!You just face it like this 'cause it is the new element and SS already existed!I am 100% sure that if we already had Drizzle in our metagame and the SS ability was the new element you would be after SS for overpowering the metagame...
I already did you just didn't realized it...
Nope!SS was forbidden under driizle so that we could more easy search for the broken element!'Cause we weren't sure!If you were sure from then,then this is another reason that makes you biased.If you were so quick to judge drizzle then your bad...
You didn't get me...I just wanted to show that neither of the abilities are broken on their own.They have the potential to break a poke when used in conjuction!And when did i say that drizzle is a mere speed boost?Pls tell me...
Actually, Alo's offenses are both terrible. It's best bet is just to ToxiStall, or use Scald for the Burn chance. Waterfall isn't gonna be hurting anything, but Scald helps Alomomola cripple things like Ferrothorn.
Every slot you're using for a Floatzel is a slot you aren't using for Ferro, Thunderous, or Starmie.
Unfortunately, for all our best attempts to prevent it, the exact pool of suspect voters is semi-random. The fear is that one possible random pool of voters will decide to veto 7 rounds of people voting for something to remain OU basically on a whim. It's unlikely to happen, but it is a possibility.
