Metagame np: PU Stage 5 - Movin' On Up (Vigoroth and Exeggutor are BANNED)

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I have to disagree with some of what you said. First, ladder wins are not the most concrete evidence for the viability of stall. Secondly, of course you beat some good players. You win with stall because people don't think anyone will use it when building their teams. If they expected it, there are many good Pokemon they could just add as good stallbreaker and pressure the living daylight out of stall. Third, it says something when you have to devote 2 Pokemon on a team for seeing what move Exeggutor will use, and if it is Yache Berry, Avalugg is screwed. There are so many different sets that Exeggutor can use to get around a check, especially with Sleep Powder
Ladder wins? You should read everything, I used it in tour battles as well.

I have to devote two mons to see its move? Audino is stall's main pivot, it does that alone; no need for an extra poke to scout. If it's yache berry, it can't touch the team because it doesn't have enough power, no need to even bring avalugg then. Sleep powder can't sleep gourgeist and the most common set with sleep powder can't touch it either. Please read my post more carefully and then see some battles of stall vs teams with eggy; then talk to me about it and I'll be happy to procede this conversation.

And last but not least, I can see your argument of "people don't expect it" for stuff like offensive gourgeist, physical eggy etc. I can not expect it for an entire playstyle. If you don't "expect" an entire playstyle, that's not good planning...
 
I'm sorry but, having used stall in both this suspect test and during the seasonal in around 45 games with only 4 losses all due to hax, I have to comment this. Stall is very viable right now. There are several good players such as galbia, twix, or tehy that lost to stall teams and I'm just counting players on their main account, there were others with good records on the ladder losing to it too.

You talk about how eggy is dangerous. Eggy with lo leaf storm, psyshock, ancientpower (most common moves) can't get past gourgeist unless the gourgeist user's brain freezes. Specs? Pivot with audino first and then go to ava if they psyshocked. It also can't really enter for free against a ton of stuff because it doesn't like rose's sludge, pig has signal beam, ava has both avalanche and roar (+ hazards damage), gourgeist has wow and foul play to hinder or damage it, audino has knock and only stunfisk can give it a somewhat free entry (toxic doesn't do damage fast enough to specs and only has discharge para to annoy it). Eggy is very annoying, yes, but nowhere near a "major threat", rotom-f is more annoying, to give an example.

And Vigoroth is a threat only with the sub set (you can beat taunt with sludge poison or discharge or static para) but that's a threat to basically everything in the tier, from stall to balance and even to offense so I think we can remove it from the equation.

Also, as a side note, that team has stunfisk with wish support and hazards to make sure pawn can't be alive forever, how exactly is it really weak to pawn?

Anyway, this was just to say that stall is viable, both on the ladder and on the tournament scene and this is coming from a noob who fought against some competent pu players. About eggy, as I said before, still on the fence so no ban for now.

PS: why did I just write a book about stall in pu...
"People have lost to stall so it's good"

I have been overstating Exeggutor's effect on stall but it's certainly not a good playstyle especially with Vigoroth around (yes this doesn't affect exeggutor but saying it's "very viable" now is kinda lol). Also outside of Vullaby stall has literally nothing for sub petaya eggy

Anyway balance also doesn't really have anything for Exeggutor, especially since these teams often run things like Stunfisk or specially defensive Golem which just let it in for free (unless you're lucky with Stunfisk), and usually they can't play around it with multiple defensive Pokemon that can take certain moves from it because they don't have those. While some balance teams can run things that can revenge kill it they still run the risk of it having a specific berry for that revenge killer (plus it can just switch out), and losing one mon every time something comes in is especially terrible for this playstyle.
 
"People have lost to stall so it's good"

I have been overstating Exeggutor's effect on stall but it's certainly not a good playstyle especially with Vigoroth around (yes this doesn't affect exeggutor but saying it's "very viable" now is kinda lol). Also outside of Vullaby stall has literally nothing for sub petaya eggy

Anyway balance also doesn't really have anything for Exeggutor, especially since these teams often run things like Stunfisk or specially defensive Golem which just let it in for free (unless you're lucky with Stunfisk), and usually they can't play around it with multiple defensive Pokemon that can take certain moves from it because they don't have those. While some balance teams can run things that can revenge kill it they still run the risk of it having a specific berry for that revenge killer (plus it can just switch out), and losing one mon every time something comes in is especially terrible for this playstyle.
No, I said "even good players have lost to stall so it's viable" and it happened with this exact metagame. I also said several other players lost to it on the ladder and on tours. I never said stall was the best playstyle, I said it was definitely viable. It's not my preferred playstyle right now but it's absolutely viable.

Also, come on, how many eggy sets are you going to use on your argument? You already said specs, lo with sleep powder, colbur and sub petaya, which I happened to never see after playing/watching easily over a hundred games in this metagame with all kinds of players (noobs to solid ones). Anyway, I think you're overestimating eggy's usefullness in this meta by using a particular set that threatens each playstyle and then proceding to say "ok it threatens all playstyles and has huge impact vs all because this particular set does so against that playstyle". It is versatile and that is what I said on my first post, it's not as broken as you make it seem.

And I'm gonna take a hiatus now to let others chime in as well xD
 
No, I said "even good players have lost to stall so it's viable" and it happened with this exact metagame. I also said several other players lost to it on the ladder and on tours. I never said stall was the best playstyle, I said it was definitely viable. It's not my preferred playstyle right now but it's absolutely viable.

Also, come on, how many eggy sets are you going to use on your argument? You already said specs, lo with sleep powder, colbur and sub petaya, which I happened to never see after playing/watching easily over a hundred games in this metagame with all kinds of players (noobs to solid ones). Anyway, I think you're overestimating eggy's usefullness in this meta by using a particular set that threatens each playstyle and then proceding to say "ok it threatens all playstyles and has huge impact vs all because this particular set does so against that playstyle". It is versatile and that is what I said on my first post, it's not as broken as you make it seem.

And I'm gonna take a hiatus now to let others chime in as well xD
good players have also lost to things like confuse ray illumise and sd leech seed max hp sawsbuck, does that make those viable / good?

The reason I mentioned all of those sets is because they're all very good sets that you can run with little to no opportunity cost. Also, all of these sets are absurdly effective against balance which is the main thing I'm concerned with because how well it beats balance is the main reason I think it's broken.
 
good players have also lost to things like confuse ray illumise and sd leech seed max hp sawsbuck, does that make those viable / good? also since when is tehy a "good pu player"

The reason I mentioned all of those sets is because they're all very good sets that you can run with little to no opportunity cost. Also, all of these sets are absurdly effective against balance which is the main thing I'm concerned with because how well it beats balance is the main reason I think it's broken.
Wait, did you just compare an entire playstyle to something as niche as those two examples? In that case, I'll stop replying, no point.
 

Many

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Yeah, zdrup is basically right in that Berry versions of Eggy are practically non-threatening to stall teams. Specs is threatening but can be played around with Audino to scout and regen out to a grass/psychic resist. And pretty much every good player in the room has lost to a stall team recently if they've played on ladder or done room tours..

Stall is actually more viable than ever DESPITE Eggy's presence in the tier, because of how Audino is. This makes me think that Eggy doesn't need to be banned.

EDIT: Also, Eggy doesn't crush balance any more than pokemon like Monferno or Stoutland. The only time when it should just beat balance is if you're an idiot and spam Stunfisk on every team without any grass/psychic resists.
 
Yeah, zdrup is basically right in that Berry versions of Eggy are practically non-threatening to stall teams. Specs is threatening but can be played around with Audino to scout and regen out to a grass/psychic resist. And pretty much every good player in the room has lost to a stall team recently if they've played on ladder or done room tours..

Stall is actually more viable than ever DESPITE Eggy's presence in the tier, because of how Audino is. This makes me think that Eggy doesn't need to be banned.
Did you even read my recent post where I said that I overestimated how hard it is for stall to face Exeggutor but it's still broken because it's so ridiculous against balance?

at your edit: no, because those pokemon actually have counters??? I won't be too upset if eggy stays but these posts have atrocious reasoning
 
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zdrup15 don't critisize me for something you do too. I already said why stall got so many wins. Of course it is more viable now that no one expects it. I wouldn't call a playstyle viable until people use it enough for people to expect it. In addition, some people use teams from before Audino came and don't have an effective stallbreaker. I don't know how you can call stall "definitely viable" with so many wallbreaker in the tier, too, until you get testing from more than 5 people. You are basing your argument on 45 games against 1000s of games. At least let the meta evolve a little. Also, the berry sets are niche, but very good and are very viable; you and ManOfMany are seriously underestimating the berries. And just letting you know, I said in my "thoughts" post that stall is not unviable in my opinion, it is just that you are making whole arguments on an important ban from a bias experience with stall (small sample size, ect...).
 
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Okay this thread is getting pretty out of hand with people (including me kinda!) getting way too heated with arguments as well as getting really off topic so I'm going to lock this thread for a little while longer because this is going nowhere. Thanks to those who posted calmly.

Also before you get on me for locking this, I talked to the council about this and they agreed with me doing this
 

Josh

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honestly, i feel like quickbanning vig and around a month later (or whatever you deem appropriate time for the metagame to adapt) suspecting eggy if you still believe its needed. imo this would be better because
(a) i dont think a single relevant person thinks vig is healthy
(b) we could see if stall and the metagame as a whole has adapted to the points its no longer mediocre at best
(c) at that point, if eggy was still viewed as potentially ban worthy, we test a suspect ladder without eggy on it, and see if anything changes for the better or for the worse
unfortunately, its too late for that, so ya. i just feel like eggy wasnt given a fair suspect, because vig is still here.

im not good at pu (have reqs 40-10 if that counts as ok at least), so i doubt anyone cares about my opinions, but might as well post em while im posting. obviously im banning vig, ngl i usually like arguing and am in the minority, but this thing just has no real arguments lmao. a month or two ago when i started playing pu getting tutored by gasquakee i matched Jetpack who had a vig. that was the first vigoroth id matched, and it ended up sweeping me. he told me it was broken, and i thought he was just joking. the thing is honestly so stupid, it sets up on SO much and even what it doesnt set up on can often still be revenge killed by it in a pinch.
re eggy: im neutral. on one hand, i havent had any problems wiht it, and ive matched everything from specs to subseed harvest sitrus, but on the other hand ive only played offense and balance. ill be reading the replies and asking friends to make a decision.
 
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Megazard

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I'm surprised at the amount of people (even more in the room than this thread) that have reached a DnB on Eggy so quickly. While I initially went in with the expectation of not banning because it's not overly threatening towards offense and stall can theoretically run vullaby and stuff, I realized how bad of an influence Exeggutor has on the tier. The best example here is Stunfisk, a top support mon, which plummeted in usability and people don't even mind calling it sorta bad in VR because of Eggy. Now it's stuck running HP Bug and praying for the Eggy ban, because this thing is just so threatening against teams that aren't extra prepared for it, which means dropping that passive Ground-type. It's so much harder to justify anything that loses to this mon, you could say that for any S rank but the way it's hurt things like Fisk and Relicanth (idr the last time I saw this) and Pelipper is indicative of how bad this is (it's so hard to justify not using Vullaby, Vibrava also dropped off teams). Most playstyles simply cant afford a reliable switch-in because there are so few, and, while it's not impossible to handle it at all, it's seriously warping the meta to fit around its presence and making teams become more and more susceptible to other threats that they cant account for because they're too busy dealing with the elephant in the room. You know what got way better with the recent changes? Golem, because bulky Grass types like Tangela have dropped with Eggy running around. Dodrio, Stunfisk is far more rare and easy to abuse. Monferno, people have shifted towards Golem and Metang and away from Stunfisk and Gabite (also pawn drop but not just that). Simisear loves the reduction in some of its best checks (Gabite, Stunfisk), greatly reduced need for HP Electric, and amazing offensive partner in Eggy. Aside from being an incredibly potent S rank, Exeggutor compounds the numerous problems that stall, BO, and even basic balanced playstyles face (I heavily disagree with the notion that stall is any good and balance has suffered in general in gen 6 but was still way better pre-drops). Now not all of these can be attributed directly to Eggy, Pawn/Alt drops and the rise of Vigoroth, among other things, certainly helped this out. And it's not that offense really appreciates it either, it's able to tank hits, especially with resist berry, and obviously offense doesnt really have switchins. Not worse than machoke or something, but certainly not dead weight. The way Eggy warps teambuilding makes me believe that we can't have a decent meta until this thing is banned.

After reading this I made it sound like Stunfisk doesnt get used anymore. It's still a decent Pokemon because Electric-types would be broken without it, it's just that you cant run it without heavy support for eggy and some good justification. Hopefully this didn't come out too stupid
 

kay

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So I guess I'm going to go ahead and post my thoughts on the suspect.


I'll start with Vigoroth as I think it's the more straight forward of the two. I think I'm with the vast majority on this in wanting saying it's best to ban Vigoroth.
With its good speed and ability to run Substitute and even Taunt, it can find a lot of different openings to set up, and after setting up it's almost impossible to stop for defensive teams. And the problems don't just end with defensive teams, offensive ones have issues too. With its good special bulk it can set on on the likes of Floatzel, Mr. Mime, Zebstrika, and even things like guts Machoke.
This has the ability to "just win" at the start of the game jsut because of how effective it is and how much it can set up on and how hard it is to stop. Past the point that's reasonable to put up with. This is an easy ban.



So this is one I was on the fence on for a long time. And I can completely understand where people come from in saying Exeggutor is not broken. But I don't end up agreeing with them. Its ability to wall break goes past whats reasonable for the tier, being able to completely destroy teams with its use of Leaf Storm, duel STAB, and coverage. Even things like Sp.D Vullaby aren't safe as it can run Ancient Power to get around it. One of the main arguments I see for keeping it is that "it struggles vs offensive teams because its bad typing and low speed makes it easy to revenge kill" Which is something I don't entirely agree with. With Yachi and Colbur being standard items on Exeggutor, it's actually really hard to revenge kill. If I have a Mightyena and a Floatzel and I see it doesn't have a life orb, it basically becomes random as to which can kill it and which can not. If I go to Floatzel and try revenge killing it with Ice Beam and it turns out to be Yachi not only will it live but i'll also lose my Foatzel to the incoming Giga Drain/ Leaf Storm. The same thing can happen to Mightyena if it's Colbur. And if you don't see LO you can't even jsut assume it's a berry as it can also be specs! Unless you can scout damage you have no idea what kind of set it's running which adds to the randomness. Over all I'm on the ban side of things with it. I think it's just too much to deal with.
 
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Although not the standard set, I made some YT videos about why I think Vigoroth is BS. Please keep in mind my elo was/is very low. At the time I was likely 1300 or under.
Go ahead and skip to 4 minutes in if you only care about the Vigoroth.
If you want to watch more videos on my channel featuring Vigoroth go ahead, but this is pretty much the only one pertaining to why he's crazy. I would argue that due to how unique his sets could be, he can still be a forced to reckon with in NU. As mentioned in this thread, he can do the standard bulk up set, he can taunt, and, as shown in my video, he can encore unsuspecting low speed mons. Vigoroth can be countered fairly easily, such as a Roselia lead with toxic spikes, but the counters that do counter him easily are mostly obscure. As zdrup pointed out, "(you can beat taunt with sludge poison or discharge or static para)" , essentially only two mons can counter Vigoroth, Roselia and Zebistrika (at least that I can think of). I encourage everyone to find replays similar to my YT video to support the claim that Vigoroth is (way too) effective at stalling.

In my opinion, aside from the fact that if you use him he can have several different sets, he makes the tier boring, so I'm all for a ban. I'd imagine in NU it would fall in a similar place to Kangaskhan, but less offensive and more stall-ish. My only counter-argument is that Vigoroth would lose its unique sets and be forced into a taunt set, due to folks like Quagsire covering the defensive bit of Vigoroth sets, and folks like Kangaskhan covering the offensive Vigoroth sets. My next statement I'm even more uneducated on it than my previous one, but I would argue without Vigoroth, Egg would become much stronger than it is now. How about letting it stay and see if my hypothesis is correct.

Ban Vigoroth
DnB Egg
 
Although not the standard set, I made some YT videos about why I think Vigoroth is BS. Please keep in mind my elo was/is very low. At the time I was likely 1300 or under.
Go ahead and skip to 4 minutes in if you only care about the Vigoroth.
If you want to watch more videos on my channel featuring Vigoroth go ahead, but this is pretty much the only one pertaining to why he's crazy. I would argue that due to how unique his sets could be, he can still be a forced to reckon with in NU. As mentioned in this thread, he can do the standard bulk up set, he can taunt, and, as shown in my video, he can encore unsuspecting low speed mons. Vigoroth can be countered fairly easily, such as a Roselia lead with toxic spikes, but the counters that do counter him easily are mostly obscure. As zdrup pointed out, "(you can beat taunt with sludge poison or discharge or static para)" , essentially only two mons can counter Vigoroth, Roselia and Zebistrika (at least that I can think of). I encourage everyone to find replays similar to my YT video to support the claim that Vigoroth is (way too) effective at stalling.

In my opinion, aside from the fact that if you use him he can have several different sets, he makes the tier boring, so I'm all for a ban. I'd imagine in NU it would fall in a similar place to Kangaskhan, but less offensive and more stall-ish. My only counter-argument is that Vigoroth would lose its unique sets and be forced into a taunt set, due to folks like Quagsire covering the defensive bit of Vigoroth sets, and folks like Kangaskhan covering the offensive Vigoroth sets. My next statement I'm even more uneducated on it than my previous one, but I would argue without Vigoroth, Egg would become much stronger than it is now. How about letting it stay and see if my hypothesis is correct.

Ban Vigoroth
DnB Egg
There's a lot of inaccuracy in this post. How does Zebstrika beat Vigoroth at all? It's complete setup fodder. Also, Toxic Spikes aren't really even a huge problem since they're not hard to remove and if you're running Vigoroth you're going to be running some way to remove it. You can't just status it because it often runs sub. All of the stuff about NU is irrelevant because this is PU, not NU. You also say that you don't think Exeggutor is banworthy but provide absolutely no explanation as to why.

I'd also like to see some of the anti-ban Exeggutor people (I know there are quite a few of you) respond to Megazard's post, since it's a well thought out post that I haven't really heard any counter-arguments to.
 
Basically everything that had to be said about these two dudes has been said, but I still wanted to express my brief thoughts about the matter especially because it's a pretty important suspect stage for our tier and there has been some conflict of opinions especially regarding Exeggutor. Honestly I haven't played a lot with these two Pokemon as they don't fit my style of play so they usually don't even fit into my builds, but I still think I can get out some valuable thoughts about the matter.


Regarding Vigoroth, I think almost everyone has the same opinion on it, so I won't talk a lot about this(ended up talking a lot about this anyways!). Vigoroth has been relevant in the last months, because it proved to be extremely efficient due to reasons I'll state later on, and because of the fact that Ghost-types such as Misdreavus, have fallen off a bit in comparison of some months ago. Vigoroth is efficient because of good typing, which leaves it weak only to the rare Fighting-type, but even then things such as Monferno aren't a reliable answer due to being slower + Vigoroth can threaten them if it gets some boosts or prior damage. Then Eviolite plus okay bulk make its bulk actually pretty neat, which along with its typing allow it to set up on a big portion of the metagame: Vital Spirit also helps to not get stopped by Sleep inducers such as Jumpluff and use them as setup fodders too. Bulk Up also helps Vigoroth boost up its physical bulk other than its Attack, therefore allowing it to run a spread focused on special defense, therefore helping it achieve an overall high enough bulk to not be stopped with ease, given it also access to a reliable recovery in Slack Off. This along with access to moves such as Substitute and Taunt make it even further harder to prevent Vigoroth from setting up and stop it, and arguably broken in the current metagame. Vigoroth is prolific against most playstyles, but is deadly especially when facing defensive teams. Taunt / Substitute along with great bulk and typing make Vigoroth hard to bring down for defensive teams, as they usually don't carry much damage output. So defensive teams are forced to run dedicated answers that don't really fit into the playstyle to provide enough damage to prevent Vigoroth from setting up or sweeping your entire team, or like Encore Audino hoping Vigoroth isn't running Taunt, and that the opponent is a monkey and somehow manages to choke away Vigoroth before late-game occurs, as Audino can be pressured and threatened by Vigoroth especially if it switches in after Vigoroth has set up a Bulk Up already, and Encore isn't reliable to deal with it as Vigoroth can still hang around and annoy other teammates. Lastly, Vigoroth also kind of promotes lackluster teambuilding, as it is so much slot efficient and powerful, therefore can be slapped on basically everything and plug weaknesses by just being broken literally and finding set up on a bunch of stuff, so yeah defo ban this.

Then there's Exeggutor. I've also kind of been on the fence during these days, but I'm more prone to voting ban on this thing. Megazard hit exactly the focal point for why Exeggutor should be banned so I definitely won't talk about this as much about the other Pokemon above. I won't list all of Exeggutor qualities because other users already addressed that so I'll go straight to the point. From my point of view, Exeggutor is a Pokemon that is extremely dangerous when it has the opportunity to spam its dual STABs, therefore the best way to deal with it is to give it the least possibilities to either attack or even switch in. This can be possible when running offensive teams, as in the end Exeggutor still doesn't carry a great typing, which can still be good on a side since it provides Exeggutor the infamous double STAB and offensive teams with an useful Ground-type resist, but can be taken advantage of as it also fares a lot of weaknesses and Exeggutor is not that fast itself. Unfortunately, most defensive teams, especially stalls, aren't able to turn this into reality and most of the times can't prevent Exeggutor from spamming its moves, so are forced to run dedicated switch-ins and unconventional sets to be able to deal with Exeggutor. This brings them to be weak to another plethora of threats just to be able to check Exeggutor, while they still struggle to completely deal with it, as Megazard already said. But Exeggutor can be effective even against offensive teams, due to being able to run sets that can take advantage of berries as items: Even without items that boost its offensive capabilities, Exeggutor will still hit reasonably hard, while Harvest has additional synergy with the usage of berries that can make up for the at times lackluster typing or durability of Exeggutor, therefore it becomes hard to predict given it can also run sets such as the Sleep Powder + 3 Attacks one which is a death sentence for most slower Pokemon. So yeah overall Exeggutor is a Pokemon that forces plenty of 50/50s due to its unpredictability, can be dealt with by offensive teams, even though at times it can punish their overconfidence when running a set that uses a berry, and is deadly to bulkier and slow builds such as stall, forcing them to adapt and warp around it, therefore I don't see how healthy something like this can be at the moment, if our goal is to not annihilate defensive playstyles.
 
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Manipulative

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Quick question, could someone explain to me what B value is and how I check mine? Just trying to avoid laddering for nothing :c.
 

Thisbemyalt

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So since pretty much everything about the suspected mons has been said I just wanted to bring up one mon in particular I was having a lot of fun with and that is Gourgeist Small. So I have no idea if this set is standard (new to PU) but here was the one I was playing with:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Rock Slide
- Will-O-Wisp

This mon has been preforming extremely well for me, this set can set up subs on a plethora of stall and balance mons especially after a will-o, it made my stall matchup significantly better than it had been. With the drop of audino and the most likely ban on vigoroth this set could really do well as a check to stall and I certainly found it to be successful in that. When up against more offense oriented teams it wasn't much harder for this set to be an annoyance, bringing it in on a mon it 1v1s and starting sub-leech-willo shenanigans usually forced my opponent to sack or allow one of his mons to be crippled. Maybe it is just because I am new and know very little about this tier, but I really enjoyed using this set and I feel as if it is under appreciated.

Another mon I was having fun with was simisear, provided a great way of revenging eggy and absolutely shredded most bulky teams by having excellent mixed coverage. I think this mon will be better in post suspect meta as bulkier teams will become more viable but it was extremely fun to use during the suspect.

The team I was using that had both was a Dundies team from sample team thread, was a really cool team man thanks for putting it out there :]
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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Why is the only anti-ban justification for Eggy I've heard since Zdrup stopped posting "I never had an issue with it on the shitty ladder with the team I didn't build"? If you faced 3 Exeggutor and one of them was starf berry with a Dundies team that's overprepared for eggy because it's better to be extra safe vs it than to run Simisage switchins then maybe that's not the best justification for voting DnB. I'd like to see somebody respond to these arguments if only to feel safer from the people looking for TC that won't even bother reading this thread or come up with any good reasoning
edit: and it's not that I'm blaming people or saying my opinion is correct, it's just this reasoning is just more painful than "Aegislash is weak to Earthquake so it's balanced"
 
Hi, I just wanted to remind everyone as this suspect draws to a close that we will have a rotating council this time, the incentive for making this being that rotating council members have their suspect vote (not tc vote) weighted doubly, just like with the regular council. The only explicit requirement for being chosen is that you make good quality posts in this thread regarding the suspect test, but we will also be looking at your general interest and activity in PU (as shown by talking in the room, building teams, etc). To avoid bias, instead of just the tier leaders (as in our pre-official suspect tests), the entire council will be choosing the rotating council. Finally, there is a possibility that no one meets the requirements, in which case no one will make rotating council.
 

ShuckleDeath

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So I was unable to go for Reqs due to a change at work and the Holidays, but I'll still give a few thoughts.

Vigoroth is incredibly broken as many have pointed out. It sets up on a good number of the tier due to it's amazing speed for the kind of Pokemon role it sets out to due. I have won with Vigoroth, after setting up one bilk up than letting Machoke Close Combat on my Subs. I have won with Vigoroth, when there was nothing but a Gourgeist-Small on the opposing field simply because I was behind a sub and I just sub when it would be broken. It is just so easy to win with, I would defiantly vote Ban, and it seems like the vast majority feels the same way.

Exeggcutor I feel is not broken. It has a lot of sets it can run but I just seem to be able to pivot around it well enough, and its offensive checks are numerous. That being said I still feel it is unhealthy for the Metagame, While Offense deals with it relatively well, slow Bulky teams don't like it much at all, It almost single handily Made our former S rank Mon Roselia drop to A+ and made it run fast offensive sets rather than Bulky Spikes. I find because of this checking the likes of Waters is getting harder to do, so I feel a bit limited in my options. For these reasons I think I would be leaning towards Ban on Eggy as well.
 

g

blood tastes like iron
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Not going to bother talking about Vigoroth since the current PU really doesn't have much of anything at all to handle that kind of threat (and i mean offensive Ghost-types like Haunter or Mismagius, or even set-up sweepers that have type advantage against it) outside of random niche Pokémon and sets like Focus Punch Dusknoir, Toxic Jumpluff and the use of Trick which is all stuff Vigoroth can defeat in some circumstances so the real discussion will be focused on Exeggutor.
I'll start by saying that coming onto this suspect test I was quite a bit biased towards ban, probably because of the way Exeggutor affects teambuilding. This new threat kind of made a lot of PU staples much worse after the tier shift and a decline in viability of Pokemon such as Stunfisk (thank god) and Roselia (defensive variants at least, which made Spikes a lot less problematic so im not that disappointed from this) made a lot of solid and standard builds obsolete especially those on the balanced / passive side, something definitely worrysome for your regular balanced team so I can definitely feel together with those that feel like those playstyles were hurt by this new presence and were forced to adapt and change and so I've seen is a lot of Vullaby, Grumpig (speed invested signal beam), Metang (a lot of Pursuit I've seen in the pastebins floating around), Bouffalant (SD, but also AV which is not a very good set imo but that's not for this post) to try and counteract this "trend" with moderate success and so the various cores for balance changed from Roselia+Stunfisk+Grumpig to something more similar to Vullaby+Metang+Stunfisk or Pelipper+Metang+Audino or some combination of those to try and deal with this nuisance (with moderate to good success, I've observed quite a few good builds with that framework), especially in conjunction with good checks such as Jumpluff and Pawniard the tier already has and the vast majority of offensive Pokemon able to beat wallbreaking variants of Exeggutor (the ones with a boosting item and no resist berry). This is the standard way your regular balanced team will beat Exeggutor (and any wallbreaker such as the faster Glaceon, Rampardos and Stoutland or Dodrio!) but the issue is that at times (and i mean by giving up beating something else) Exeggutor has the ability to beat those kinds of answers (Metang/Vullaby) with some variants of its main sets such as Hidden Power Fire, Sleep Powder, Ancientpower, and Leech Seed and so the aforementioned "offensive way" of beating it is needed to be safe. The only alternative to that is running Zweilous sadly which, even if not a terrible Pokemon on its own since it has quite a few uses in utility checking, is not the best Pokemon in PU by any means. My general idea on tiering is that a wallbreaker is broken only if it forces you to run very subpar and overspecialised options in order to counter it and/or is also overly difficult to kill and, to me, Exeggutor doesn't fill any of these two conditions.

But that is not it yet since there are some points Megazard brought up that are certainly valid but I have the need to clear up.
He mentioned the decline of Stunfisk as one of the effects Exeggutor has had on the metagame and, even if I don't agree that's a reason to ban it for quite obvious reasons (I really don't get why Stunfisk should be good so Exeggutor needs to be banned) its also quite false since even pre drop a lot of teams started using Rotom-F and Simisage to take advantage of it and Stunfisk has been on decline for a while (not to mention Bouffalant and Altaria are new guys with great matchup against it e.e). The fact that Dodrio is better as a result (I don't even agree since Probopass and Golem are very common and check it better than Stunfisk but whatever) is just a result of this shifting and what will happen is more electrics to counteract that and then more stunfisk to beat those once again. Golem being popular because Exeggutor makes Tangela worse is also really irrelevant and quite false since, again, Exeggutor is more threatening than Tangela to Golem with its ability to prevent rocks. I didn't really get the Monferno and Pawniard points since they don't really involve Exeggutor outside of being very good and threatening to Exeggutor and its just related to people realizing Stunfisk is not really as splashable as they thought (also my fault probably I really hyped that up in the past.

To people saying Exeggutor is broken since it has decent matchup against offense I will just say that it would be very bad if it didn't and its performance is related to the kind of set its running and what it is facing. It has utility with Yache against Water types and with Colbur against Dark Types (outside of people using Colbur without Hidden Power Fighting that performs even worse than Specs against the most common Dark-type) and pretty much no utility without so I can't really see why its relevant to talk about that.
I simply don't think it's more than just influential and a top 2 Pokemon in the tier (the best without Vigoroth maybe) and I don't think banning would be the best idea atm
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Can i get an amen!

Amen!

...Uh. Look, this post is to say I still don't see much of a reason to ban eggy, and I was actually playing stall exclusively towards the end there (frankly if the stallbreaking is an issue, rather ban simisear or simisage because those are way better). So, this is your last chance to convince me and probably a lot of others as well. If you've got solid ban arguments, let's see 'em.
 
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