Metagame np: PU Stage 5 - Movin' On Up (Vigoroth and Exeggutor are BANNED)

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Killintime

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I don't know how much my opinion matters as I only got into the tier for the suspect, but from what I see in the arguments I feel like I should be posting my opinion just as another outlook. I played and watched a large amount of games and from what I have seen from both suspects puts it into perspective for me. Vigoroth first off is an awesome wall as well as win condition as its ability to sponge hits with eviolite as well as even stallbreak with the taunt set is just stupidly good. It was manageable for me but I was indeed running multiple checks in the form of trick mime and gougiest-small which still puts me in a bad position if they are the sub set. Its fast and all around bulky mon with setup and large amount of PP to stall out ghost types. Overall I'd say ban it was a pain in the ass to deal with and the tier would do better without it definitely. Now as for eggy I played the first few games with stall and came upon specs and powder life orb, and honestly stall has little to no trouble with eggy especially if you're running mons like zweilious which hard wall it. When i switched over to balance I do feel the pressure coming from eggy but honestly it was still definitely manageable the real issue lies in the "will he sleep powder or just drop a nuke" mind game and that can be really devastating esp since we are looking at a base 125 sp.attack mon. Sadly I still feel its too slow to truly say its broken enough to get banned since a lot of mons can revenge it. The thing is items like colber also play a huge hand in all of this since it means even a sucker punch from a pawnierd becomes a serious mindgame since he could just be dropping an hp fire and not a sleep powder. Overall I honestly think the meta would get a lot better if both were banned but i would say eggy is manageable as I am still torn whether or not ill be banning it until I play a few more games against it.
 

Megazard

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But that is not it yet since there are some points Megazard brought up that are certainly valid but I have the need to clear up.
He mentioned the decline of Stunfisk as one of the effects Exeggutor has had on the metagame and, even if I don't agree that's a reason to ban it for quite obvious reasons (I really don't get why Stunfisk should be good so Exeggutor needs to be banned) its also quite false since even pre drop a lot of teams started using Rotom-F and Simisage to take advantage of it and Stunfisk has been on decline for a while (not to mention Bouffalant and Altaria are new guys with great matchup against it e.e). The fact that Dodrio is better as a result (I don't even agree since Probopass and Golem are very common and check it better than Stunfisk but whatever) is just a result of this shifting and what will happen is more electrics to counteract that and then more stunfisk to beat those once again. Golem being popular because Exeggutor makes Tangela worse is also really irrelevant and quite false since, again, Exeggutor is more threatening than Tangela to Golem with its ability to prevent rocks. I didn't really get the Monferno and Pawniard points since they don't really involve Exeggutor outside of being very good and threatening to Exeggutor and its just related to people realizing Stunfisk is not really as splashable as they thought (also my fault probably I really hyped that up in the past.

To people saying Exeggutor is broken since it has decent matchup against offense I will just say that it would be very bad if it didn't and its performance is related to the kind of set its running and what it is facing. It has utility with Yache against Water types and with Colbur against Dark Types (outside of people using Colbur without Hidden Power Fighting that performs even worse than Specs against the most common Dark-type) and pretty much no utility without so I can't really see why its relevant to talk about that.
I simply don't think it's more than just influential and a top 2 Pokemon in the tier (the best without Vigoroth maybe) and I don't think banning would be the best idea atm
The rise of certain things isn't the reason to ban it, it's an example to how it influences the meta. You could call it just regular change and a natural progression in the meta that shouldnt be an issue but but I simply don't agree. It's not shifting in a more positive direction, it's just becoming more matchup based and offense oriented. I think removing it will be massively helpful for not overloading those playstyles and improving the meta overall. I also really disagree with the notions that stall works (it works up until the point that they bring something that just wins but there's so many things that do that to varying stall teams and in very few matchups does stall just win) or that balance hasn't suffered a ton (even less mons to try to counteract massive threats and you've got multiple slots forced into handling eggy) and removing such a centralizing mon that you need 3 checks and 1 solid switchin to will give balance more breathing room. It's sort of a fine line, obviously you have to run checks to every top tier Pokemon and that doesn't mean they're broken, but Eggy's influence is far greater than floatzel or roselia and I don't want to see a meta that continues to be centralized around it.

Additionally, I don't think you need to ban a wallbreaker only when it forces you to run subpar sets like you said. If you have to run the exact same sets every time to beat it then that's still banworthy. Sure, the cores you listed work (Vullaby+Metang+Stunfisk or Pelipper+Metang+Audino) but can you give me more balance cores that don't have 1 of Metang, Vullaby, or Zweilous? Because I really havent seen that be particularly successful. I'd prefer stunfisk spam than the same cores that you can just abuse by tossing on things like sub SD bouff. Like, the only reason glaceon got ranked again is because it breaks down standard balance that prepares for eggy, otherwise we'd be in the same "why would you ever want to use this" situation. I'm sure there's a couple of balanced builds that do passably but Eggy is precisely the reason why so many cores like the previously standard roselia+stunfisk/solrock/relicanth/anything else really, audino+stunfisk, grumpig+gabite/stunfisk+politoed...honestly I could go on but these were all basic cores that now just don't really work in favor of the same exact builds which I consider a massive point against eggy with very little blame elsewhere. I think this is barely better than poliwrath/throh on every singe team in Sneasel meta.

edit @ below then why cant i fight 2 balance teams without seeing vullaby
 
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I think you're overstating eggy's affect on the meta to be completely honest. While old cores may not be as effective as they previously were they still have a place in the meta. Not only that, but also as metas shift cores change so its only natural that those cores become outdated as new threats arise similar to old cores in past metas such as cleftang. Also I don't think eggy threatens stall or balance much more than threats like subsplit rotom or as you mentioned sub sd bouff, which aren't broken by any means but merely threats that you must account for if you want to build a decent team. Like I don't find that you have to go out your way to prepare for eggy, as much as you have to prepare for other balance breakers or you just lose. Kinda like how if you don't bring ferno or byss checks you will just lose. I see eggy as just another threat to consider along with other common threats, however not to the extent that I would consider it broken.
 
@above did you actually just mention cleftang in a serious post?? It was never anything more than a joke core as it literally lost to the best and most common mon in the tier in roselia as well as a ton of other things

I don't see how balance does fine against Exeggutor at all. I've been building and playing with balance a lot and while other things may be a bit harder to cover, Exeggutor is just as hard to cover AND brings about the issue Megazard brought up in his posts. Additionally, Exeggutor on top of all of the other things people have mentioned is completely impossible to cover, which is a problem for Exeggutor as apart from maybe Monferno it's the most common of these Pokemon. Also, unlike Bouffalant, Rotom, and Monferno, every Exeggutor set threatens the vast majority of balance teams, not just the ones specifically used to threaten balance, meaning Exeggutor beats balance without even trying to. Yes you can deal with it because "lol slap on a Vullaby" but that's pretty bad for the meta (and as I've said before, Vullaby doesn't even beat every set as specs ancientpower cleanly 2HKOes it after rocks which are very likely to either be up or have damaged it before). Sneasel was broken (unanimously banned even) despite the fact that you could "lol slap on a Poliwrath", and Exeggutor is too.
 
You know, i've been talking about it since the start of a suspect and i've also been encouraged to post on this so here it goes. (Please excuse grammar errors 'cause i'm not native and i don't speak english very well)

Vigoroth is broken and plain ridiculous, everyone agrees in that. We all knew it was going to be banned, let's be serious. But well, my main point is about eggy.
Yeah, i know eggy is versatile and spammable but, like every mon, it does have flaws and it's not as unhealthy as people classify it.
There are tons and tons of eggys sets out there but as i've been talking to some guys lately, i'll just point the most common ones (LO, Specs and Yache/Colbur)

  • Specs: While it's arguably eggy's best set for it's ability to break walls and cores with easy, it faces some problems that other mons would face aswell. Being choice-locked in one move means that you rely in prediction (as well as your opponent) and one move can give you/your opponent a big advantage. By the way, Eggy can't run every coverage moves it needs to break everything it needs to. Giga and Psyshock are standard, while it can run Hidden power Fire, Hidden power fighting, Leaf Storm and Ancient power. Well, with Giga, Psyshock, Hp Fire and Ancient Power it's walled by Probopass. With Giga, Psyshock, Hp Fighting, Ancient Power it's walled by Metang. With Giga, Psyshock, Hp fighting and Leaf Storm, then Metang and Vullaby (Not to mention Zweilous, which counters every set). By the way, it loses huge utility when it needs to forget Synthesis/Sleep Powder, and totally relies on prediction.
  • Life Orb: Yeah, changing Specs for LO is, for eggy, both a curse and a blessing. While being able to change moves and running utility moves like the aforementioned Sleep Powder and Synthesis is really good, LO (even when paired with Synthesis) wears Eggy down really fast, (and even thought it has a decent bulk, it can't enter in a lot of neutral attacks or super effectives one without a berry more than one time) and also it becomes pretty easily revenge killed. Considering it'd rather run one of those utility moves (or even both), it'd be walled by even more things (considering that it'll miss even more coverage that specs does and considerable power). Running Powder + Synthesis with STABs makes it being walled by pretty much every steel type (if it isn't running Leaf Storm for Probo). I won't repeat everything cause the counters and checks are pretty much the same, just consider it is only running one coverage move.
  • Yache/Colbur: Probably the weakest set considering it ain't running power-boosting items. Well, Colbur gives Eggy strong utility in tanking most knock offs (Most. Not everyone. You won't switch in something like Dodrio btw) and let it deal with dark types and non-ice punch machoke (pretty sure he can tank one Ice punch tho). Colbur, imo, isn't so good, considering it have to give up in using Synthesis or Sleep Powder for Hidden Power Fighting (or another coverage move) and again, loses huge utility. Still, if you don't need one of those, you're free. Yache let Eggy tank non-stab ice hits (pretty much every STAB ice move still ohkos or 2hkos it), which let it be a decent offensive water-spam answer. This set is one of the best sets to be honest, considering PU lacks water-spam (splashable) switch ins sometimes. Yache Eggy gets it's job done.
About the whole "Exeggutor break cores that were strong and really good in the meta while raising the usage of x mon" isn't a so good argument, considering we have a lot of good, decent, viable and actually splashable (but heavily underrated and sometimes unused) mons that can break cores like Solrock + Roselia, Relicanth + Roselia, Stunfisk + Roselia, like Swanna, Leafeon, Glaceon, NP Raichu, Regice (only unused, at least atm), Articuno (the king of underrated mons), etc. I just don't think this is actually ban-worthy considering those mons are good and viable but aren't used at a point that people actually care about preparing for those, and they can also do what eggy does: Break common defensive cores.
 

Megazard

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You know, i've been talking about it since the start of a suspect and i've also been encouraged to post on this so here it goes. (Please excuse grammar errors 'cause i'm not native and i don't speak english very well)

Vigoroth is broken and plain ridiculous, everyone agrees in that. We all knew it was going to be banned, let's be serious. But well, my main point is about eggy.
Yeah, i know eggy is versatile and spammable but, like every mon, it does have flaws and it's not as unhealthy as people classify it.
There are tons and tons of eggys sets out there but as i've been talking to some guys lately, i'll just point the most common ones (LO, Specs and Yache/Colbur)

  • Specs: While it's arguably eggy's best set for it's ability to break walls and cores with easy, it faces some problems that other mons would face aswell. Being choice-locked in one move means that you rely in prediction (as well as your opponent) and one move can give you/your opponent a big advantage. By the way, Eggy can't run every coverage moves it needs to break everything it needs to. Giga and Psyshock are standard, while it can run Hidden power Fire, Hidden power fighting, Leaf Storm and Ancient power. Well, with Giga, Psyshock, Hp Fire and Ancient Power it's walled by Probopass. With Giga, Psyshock, Hp Fighting, Ancient Power it's walled by Metang. With Giga, Psyshock, Hp fighting and Leaf Storm, then Metang and Vullaby (Not to mention Zweilous, which counters every set). By the way, it loses huge utility when it needs to forget Synthesis/Sleep Powder, and totally relies on prediction.
  • Life Orb: Yeah, changing Specs for LO is, for eggy, both a curse and a blessing. While being able to change moves and running utility moves like the aforementioned Sleep Powder and Synthesis is really good, LO (even when paired with Synthesis) wears Eggy down really fast, (and even thought it has a decent bulk, it can't enter in a lot of neutral attacks or super effectives one without a berry more than one time) and also it becomes pretty easily revenge killed. Considering it'd rather run one of those utility moves (or even both), it'd be walled by even more things (considering that it'll miss even more coverage that specs does and considerable power). Running Powder + Synthesis with STABs makes it being walled by pretty much every steel type (if it isn't running Leaf Storm for Probo). I won't repeat everything cause the counters and checks are pretty much the same, just consider it is only running one coverage move.
  • Yache/Colbur: Probably the weakest set considering it ain't running power-boosting items. Well, Colbur gives Eggy strong utility in tanking most knock offs (Most. Not everyone. You won't switch in something like Dodrio btw) and let it deal with dark types and non-ice punch machoke (pretty sure he can tank one Ice punch tho). Colbur, imo, isn't so good, considering it have to give up in using Synthesis or Sleep Powder for Hidden Power Fighting (or another coverage move) and again, loses huge utility. Still, if you don't need one of those, you're free. Yache let Eggy tank non-stab ice hits (pretty much every STAB ice move still ohkos or 2hkos it), which let it be a decent offensive water-spam answer. This set is one of the best sets to be honest, considering PU lacks water-spam (splashable) switch ins sometimes. Yache Eggy gets it's job done.
About the whole "Exeggutor break cores that were strong and really good in the meta while raising the usage of x mon" isn't a so good argument, considering we have a lot of good, decent, viable and actually splashable (but heavily underrated and sometimes unused) mons that can break cores like Solrock + Roselia, Relicanth + Roselia, Stunfisk + Roselia, like Swanna, Leafeon, Glaceon, NP Raichu, Regice (only unused, at least atm), Articuno (the king of underrated mons), etc. I just don't think this is actually ban-worthy considering those mons are good and viable but aren't used at a point that people actually care about preparing for those, and they can also do what eggy does: Break common defensive cores.
I don't understand what you're trying to say in this post. Nobody's been arguing that any individual set is simply broken, just that it pushes the meta in an unhealthy direction, really hurts balance, etc. There's also other stuff here that doesnt make sense like specs eggy being walled by probopass ever and being walled by other things depending on the set (I mean obviously but that just means it can pick and choose what it wants to win vs), suggesting you wouldnt run a grass move on it and ignoring plenty of viable sets (sub seed/petaya beats all of those supposed counters, sunny day/OTR aren't even a thing?). It just looks at each set and goes "well versus any team it won't autowin and each has flaws". We know that. Why isn't it unhealthy for the meta?
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
I don't understand what you're trying to say in this post. Nobody's been arguing that any individual set is simply broken, just that it pushes the meta in an unhealthy direction, really hurts balance, etc. There's also other stuff here that doesnt make sense like specs eggy being walled by probopass ever and being walled by other things depending on the set (I mean obviously but that just means it can pick and choose what it wants to win vs), suggesting you wouldnt run a grass move on it and ignoring plenty of viable sets (sub seed/petaya beats all of those supposed counters, sunny day/OTR aren't even a thing?). It just looks at each set and goes "well versus any team it won't autowin and each has flaws". We know that. Why isn't it unhealthy for the meta?
my man, why is it unhealthy enough to ban?

edit: you responded to him saying 'it's not as unhealthy as everyone is saying', and said 'it is unhealthy'. if you're not trying to argue that eggy is banworthy, what are you trying to argue ?
 
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Megazard

The turtle moves
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I don't know, I haven't posted on it or read other people's posts or discussed it at all :v
That post was more in response to 4 paragraphs of totally missing the point, you could just respond to an actual pro-ban post
 
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TSR

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so I've been using dodmen's Electric Body team and am currently 14-2 with 1958 COIL - and Vigoroth was the sole reason for one of those losses. Now I don't play PU all too much, but of course can tell how the Sub/Bulk Up/ Slack Off nearly completely invalidates stall in this tier. It certainly wasn't useless against offense, as it turned Driftblim, something that should completely wall it into setup fodder that it just PP stalled and proceeded to beat the rest of my team to the point where I had to sac Zebstrika to break the sub, Mr Mime to stop another sub, and then Purugly to finally beat it. Other times it didn't sweep, but i had to get up Toxic Spikes ASAP and risk Mr Mime and Focus Miss just to stop a Sub from going up
tl;dr - one free sub and this thing can create at least 2 more free turns and can force you to make some pretty desperate plays just to have a chance. Please ban this.

As for Exeggutor, I'm not having much trouble with it. I suppose its just because offense keeps up with it better. I can see how 125 base SpA and Grass/Psychic STAB is pretty problematic for balance and stall that doesn't have access to reaaallly fat special walls. Pretty similar to Crawdaunt in UU imo, offensive pressure is the best way to deal with but is one of those pokemon that takes huge advantage out of slow paced teams. Kinda leaning away from ban on this one, hopefully i can get more experience with eggy out of the battles till i hit 2800 and may change how I feel about it
 
Hi there!
In my opinion Vigoroth should be banned because he's just unbeatable with a pursuit user trapping ghosts, the only way to deal with these teams is just running hyper offense teams with trick and knock off users.
Ye bulky ghosts can be a problem but in case of taunt vigoroth they lose for ppstall so..
In the case of Exeggutor i would still ban him but he's not so overpowerred like Vigoroth so i'm insecure because the only viable balanced teams are with Vullaby or Zweilous since they don't care his stab moves and sleep powder.
Exeggutor can also run various sets which makes him hard to play immediately without scoutin them before, like sunny day chlorophill sweeper, choice specs, yache/occa for huntail/gorebyss and the harvest set.
 
so, it might be late, but hopefully my post can change the minds of the still who are undecided on our two suspectees, Vigoroth and Exeggutor.

Let's start with big ol' Vigoroth here.

A lot has been said and done about Vigoroth, and quite frankly I don't think anyone wants or needs this thing to ravage ORAS PU any longer. I emplore people (who haven't already decided to vote Ban), what is wrong with PU at the minute? To answer the question, the fact only one playstyle emerges as being viable is the overriding issue here. You can't win *consistently* in PU, with a Balance team, or Stall team. Thus what happens is that you limit the amount of mons that can be shuved on teams, leads the tier to be very stale as a result of playing the same matchup with the same mons over, and over, and over again. So you may be thinking, what does Vigoroth have to do with this? Vigoroth is the reason why balance teams are almost unviable for anyone who wants to win consistently. This is because, as well as the plethora of threats in PU, Balance has to prepare for Vigoroth which has the upper hand immediately vs Balance and Stall in particular. When I did my reqs on the ladder, playing any Balance or Stall team with a Sub BU Vigoroth became a question of when I would win, and not if. This is because both the main Vigoroth sets, Taunt BU and Sub BU have ways around every single Mon in PU in theory. Giving Vigoroth as a result, room to breath and get a free Bulk Up off is a recipe for disaster. Nothing can beat Vigoroth flat out, 100% of the time, no questions asked in the tier between its two sets, even though it can't technically hit Ghost Types, it can PP Stall them to the death, so they die via Struggling. Vigoroth on the other hand is at full HP probably behind a Sub with +6 Atk / +6 Def, so how do you counter Vigoroth (or at least try) on a Balance Team. How through testing I've managed to beat Vigoroth is through pure offensive pressure. This means, in your Balance / Stall Team you have to look for a method of pressuring Vigoroth offensively so that it doesn't have much room to settup and be the threat we all know it is. You do this by running more than 1 constant check to Vigoroth, for example you would run Misdreavus / Pawniard / Machoke / CM Grumpig / Rotom-F all on one team, so that Vigoroth never has the advantage in game. Misdreavus Wisps it, Pawniard beats SubBU 1v1 and can knock it off otherwise, Machoke pressures it with STAB, Grumpig with its coverage options and Rotom-F with Wisp and high powered STAB moves. Vigoroth gets whittled out of the game (most of the time) since it never really got an opportunity to come in and begin its crusade.
The other mechanic which I employ on my Balance teams is through constantly setting up with other mons, to manipulate the moves of the Vigoroth user. If anyone has seen a HJAD PU Balance Team ™ it looks something along the lines of Klang / Grumpig / Bulky Grass or Poison that can settup / Main Win-Con / Rocks / Speed Control or Defog, and from how I structure a team, Vigoroth is under pressure by my 4 Core Settup Sweepers. They all make sure that if Vigoroth wants to settup, its gonna take a shitton of damage doing it. I prefer this method since it allows you to manipulate your opponents moves much more easierly, making prediction much less of a factor, however, what you can get from the above lines of me rambling on about the (tl;dr) offensive pressure (if you can pull it off) being the only way to counter Vigoroth is an absolute joke. It makes mince meat of any Balance builds (even the ones above at times), you have more of a chance of winning by guilting the opponent for using Vigoroth in the first place, rather than winning in a clean duel. I hope to any people who are still unsure on Vigoroth how problematic it is to get passed at a team building stage, let alone an in game battle where your "counters" are also counters for other things and,, it just gets messy after a while. Ban Vigoroth, its unhealthy and not worth anyone's time with teambuilding from a Balance perspective strained. It singlehandedly shifted the Meta to a much more offensive one and warrants it, no doubt in my mind.

if anyone votes DnB I will shred you.

Now onto the next, and much less clearcut in terms of ban or do not ban at first suspectee, Exeggutor.

Exeggutor is crazy powerful. You combine its really quirky STAB Duo with Huge BP Moves, Stealth Rockers which can't touch you and 125 Base SpA and you have a recipe for success. What surprises me about Exeggutor more than what the other, standard.PU wall breakers is how finite its set of switchin are, all of which Exeggutor has a way around with its coverage movepool. Let's look at Vullaby, 2HKO'd by Ancient Power, Pawniard? OHKOed by Specs Leaf Storm, HP Fire or any varient of HP Fighting, Metang? Life Orb HP Fire + Sleep Powder does the trick! Uhhhh, Offensive Pressure? Spot on. As far as I'm concerned, the most efficient way to beat Exeggutor is literally to outspeed it at any given oppurtuinity and (attempt to* I'll come back to this shortly) kill it. When you have a Mon like this in your tier, where suddenly it claims a kill every time it comes on the field of play you have to think about how your counter play vs it is gonna be. In terms if Exeggutor, it really needed a few more flat out counters in order for it to be appetising go have in this tier. In a rather different way, it achieves the exact same effect as Vigoroth. Huge centralisation, suddenly Balance Teams get dicked on, the Meta shifts again from a balanced / ideal state to a much more centralised offensive state around this threat. Instead of flat out sweeping Balance, it picks off each member one by one, and eventually leaves you in a situation where (I'm sure any person who plays PU prominently can sympathise with me here) you have to sack one Mon to eggy, but all of your mons left are to be used countering another Mon the opponent has. You sack one of them, and it turns out that the Mon (we'll say for matter of example, Stunfisk) was needed to counter Dodrio, or deter it from spamming brave bird. Eggy made that situation arise, as a result of its excellent power, ability to have multiple switch ins to several PU Pokémon and ability to flat out beat supposed counters due to its coverage set. Now I'm gonna return to the point where I mentioned how hard it is to revenge kill. Somebody in this thread mentioned it already, I can't remember who so I can't give credit where it is due but eggy commonly runs yache / colbur and constantly causes 50/50s going forward in terms of revenge killing it.
Another egg I wanna throw in the basket (love unintentional puns) is the fact eggy can run effectively a sunny day set. Suddenly, even the offense teams that are supposed to be strong vs eggy are pressured, chloro eggy with x2 speed and solarbeam, and boosted HP fires is going to be denting something. It gives eggy an extra dimension to this 50/50 business. Suddenly, if you make a switch, you have to consider its *cleaning* ability and whether you can take on a sunny day set. It puts you in a state of, I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I don't, and in my opinion a Mon with essentially 0 full on counters, constant 50/50s in terms of revenge killing due to item, ability to ravage Balance builds and centralise them to be more offensive due to how powerful it is, and its ability to ravage the already centralised offensive builds with yet another one of its vast set options is a Mon I don't think has much of a future staying in PU. It again means relying on my good old friend offensive pressure in order to beat it, and even then it might not be enough because if it gets one free turns a sunny day set could turn your offensive dream into misery.
My vote is going to be for ban, I don't want this thing here it's too difficult to build around, and its not what PU wants or needs. Thanks NU, but no thanks.
 

Many

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I still think Exeggutor doesn't need a ban. Let's go over everything..

Is it overcentralizing?

No. Common balance teams can beat Egg simply by running pokemon that outspeed it. Of these there are quite a few- Monferno, Zebstrika, Rapidash, Stoutland, Ursaring, Dodrio...the list is endless. Unlike a fat pokemon with few weaknesses like Stoutland, almost everything that outspeeds Eggy can OHKO it.

The only teams it is overcentralizing for is stall, obviously. Eggy forces stall teams to run Zweilous or Vullaby a lot of the time. It can also be beat by the combination of Audino and Gourgeist-Super, but that requires an enormous amount of smart thinking from the stall player's part.

However, is it really any more overcentralizing than other big threats? Sub Will-O and Life Orb Pain Split Rotom-F are incredibly threatening to stall and semi-stall teams. If stall wants to beat those Rotom-F sets it has to run stuff like SpD Grumpig as well as stuff like SpD Camerupt. Nasty Plot Raichu is a ridiculous threat that only needs Stunfisk slightly weakened if running Focus Blast to sweep, and only needs Machoke practically requires stall to run Gourgeist-Super as Ice Punch and Thunderpunch respectively can bop Pelipper and Altaria on the switch.

Is it overpowered?

No, and I don't think anyone thinks it is. Exeggutor, as said previously has a ton of offensive checks that fit on nearly every team. It is tough for it to get more than one kill per match vs most teams. Even when Exeggutor gets a chance to get multiple kills, vs a Stunfisk or vs a Mr.Mime locked into Psychic, for example, it still has to make enormous predictions. Can't necessarily use Giga or Leaf Storm, because what about that Sap Sipper Zebstrika or Sawsbuck, or that Monferno. But if you use Psychic, Pawniard or Signal Beam Grumpig might come in. It's very important for people to understand that Exeggutor does not have Tinted Lens.

Is it unhealthy?

A bit. There's no denying that Exeggutor lessens the viability of defensive teams. But it is just a medium-small part of a huge surge of pokemon that lead the tide against them that includes Rotom-F, Ursaring with SD, everything with Nasty Plot, and Pawniard. Eggy forces defensive teams to adapt, but it isn't necessarily a huge adaptation they have to make. Vullaby and Zweilous are already two pokemon that fit on a good amount of defensive teams. Gourgeist-Super, which walls Life Orb and Berry sets that use Psyshock, is an easy fit for defensive teams along with Audino. Audino can scout Eggy's sets and then switch out to an appropriate answer, and can even wall a few sets. Defensive teams are already capable of handling Eggy, and even though it is somewhat of a strain, it can be done.

...and despite Exeggutor's presence, defensive teams have more viability in the meta then they ever had since Poliwrath's departure. This is undeniable. Why are we trying to ban Exeggutor when defensive teams have only improved? And do we even have an obligation to preserve stall as a playstyle?

It could even be argued that Exeggutor is healthy in some ways. It stops Stunfisk spam on every team, and punishes people for using it to fish for Static para vs everything. Faster Sleep Powder versions help vs the VERY CENTRALIZING lead Golem. Exeggutor is also one of the best Machoke answers out there, especially Colbur variants, and Machoke is an unhealthy pokemon in the meta.

Is it too versatile?
Does it have too many sets to counter, which means it is too difficult to prepare for? No. Eggy may have many sets, but each of them comes with heavy weaknesses. Choice Specs has to be locked into a move, and both STABs have many pokemon that can take advantage of it. Life Orb sets have the cost of being worn down quickly. Berry sets may provide some utility against offensive teams (Yache Berry counters Floatzel and other waters, while Colbur and Occa respectively let it survive vs Fire Types and Dark Types). However, they are not powerful and a non-threat to defensive teams, which is the whole reason Eggy is being suspected.

Does it fit on too many teams?
Nope. Exeggutor is not all that splashable. On offense, the most common archetype, it brings an enormous amount of weaknesses that are hard to account for (because you don't want to run defensive pokemon) and causes an inherent weakness to faster pokemon. On balance, the same problem applies because much of the team has to be built around Eggy, covering its weaknesses to Fire, Flying, Bug, etc.

Does it beat good teams in the meta?

Here, I'll take 4 very well known and strong teams in the meta and see how they match-up against Exeggutor- but not only that, if they can match up adequately against Exeggutor without resorting to forced strategies and gimmicks to counter it. Although this is purely anecdotal, it will still give you a good idea how teams don't have to go out of the way to deal with Eggy.

1. Dodmen's HO Electric Body
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/electric-body.3557821/

Being a hyper offense team, dodmen's team deals with Exeggutor well. Venipede sets up spikes to pressure it. Relicanth can take out a slightly weakened Eggy with Life Orb Head Smash and Jolly Nature, Purugly and Zebstrika both KO it (and Zebstrika bluffs Sap Sipper to get it from spamming grass STAB as well). Mr.Mime loses to it 1v1 unless it is very weakened, but Drifblim sets up Subs on it until it gets into Liechi range and can sweep.

2. Dundies' balance ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/¯-_-ツ-_-¯.3558925/

Dundies' team is perhaps overprepared for Exeggutor, but all of the pokemon on the team serve specific purposes that don't include beating Eggy. Right away, you notice Vullaby walls all Eggy sets without Ancient Power. Vullaby is immune to Sleep Powder and can beat non-Specs sets 1v1. Roselia outspeeds most Eggy variants and KOs with Sludge Bomb. Scarf Mr.Mime loses, obviously, but Rotom-F beats it if it can hit Blizzard.

3. CSI Miami's stall Tubular Bells
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tubular-bells.3559281/

The most successful stall team in the meta does not have a dediated Exeggutor answer. And yet, I've played against it several times including once with an Exeggutor, and it wasn't easy. How does Ranbu do it? He has Audino to scout for Specs Exeggutor and then switch out, regaining HP. If he suspects Sleep Powder and Psyshock, he might go to Gourgeist. He might switch to Grumpig with Signal Beam if he suspects a Psychic move. Overall, Eggy is a big threat to the team but not an absurd one.

4. Raiza's balance Xiangjiao
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xiangjiao.3557869/

Raiza has a strange team, that is perhaps weak to Exeggutor. Stunfisk obviously gives Eggy a free switch in. Audino can switch into most of Exeggutor's attacks but fears Sleep Powder. However, Jumpluff can switch into anything grass and revenge a weakened Eggy. Floatzel needs prior damage to revenge kill Eggy, but won't do anything against Yache variants. Scarf Solrock just loses. Monferno, however revenges Eggy with a powerful U-turn and gains momentum.

Going over these teams and others don't prove anything. You can still make a team that is weak to Exeggutor. But it is easy to build a team that handles Exeggutor while still using all viable pokemon that serve greater purposes than countering it. It is a part of the metagame, not a threat that you have to tailor a specific pokemon on your team to handle, like Vigoroth.

tldr: Exeggutor is not broken vs offense, balance, or stall. There's not much separating it from other powerful wallbreakers such as Rotom-F, Life Orb Mr.Mime, Ursaring, or Life Orb Monferno. Don't ban
 
I still think Exeggutor doesn't need a ban. Let's go over everything..
Is it overcentralizing?
No. Common balance teams can beat Egg simply by running pokemon that outspeed it. Of these there are quite a few- Monferno, Zebstrika, Rapidash, Stoutland, Ursaring, Dodrio...the list is endless. Unlike a fat pokemon with few weaknesses like Stoutland, almost everything that outspeeds Eggy can OHKO it.

The only teams it is overcentralizing for is stall, obviously. Eggy forces stall teams to run Zweilous or Vullaby a lot of the time. It can also be beat by the combination of Audino and Gourgeist-Super, but that requires an enormous amount of smart thinking from the stall player's part.

However, is it really any more overcentralizing than other big threats? Sub Will-O and Life Orb Pain Split Rotom-F are incredibly threatening to stall and semi-stall teams. If stall wants to beat those Rotom-F sets it has to run stuff like SpD Grumpig as well as stuff like SpD Camerupt. Nasty Plot Raichu is a ridiculous threat that only needs Stunfisk slightly weakened if running Focus Blast to sweep, and only needs Machoke practically requires stall to run Gourgeist-Super as Ice Punch and Thunderpunch respectively can bop Pelipper and Altaria on the switch.

Is it overpowered?

No, and I don't think anyone thinks it is. Exeggutor, as said previously has a ton of offensive checks that fit on nearly every team. It is tough for it to get more than one kill per match vs most teams. Even when Exeggutor gets a chance to get multiple kills, vs a Stunfisk or vs a Mr.Mime locked into Psychic, for example, it still has to make enormous predictions. Can't necessarily use Giga or Leaf Storm, because what about that Sap Sipper Zebstrika or Sawsbuck, or that Monferno. But if you use Psychic, Pawniard or Signal Beam Grumpig might come in. It's very important for people to understand that Exeggutor does not have Tinted Lens.
Is it unhealthy?
A bit. There's no denying that Exeggutor lessens the viability of defensive teams. But it is just a medium-small part of a huge surge of pokemon that lead the tide against them that includes Rotom-F, Ursaring with SD, everything with Nasty Plot, and Pawniard. Eggy forces defensive teams to adapt, but it isn't necessarily a huge adaptation they have to make. Vullaby and Zweilous are already two pokemon that fit on a good amount of defensive teams. Gourgeist-Super, which walls Life Orb and Berry sets that use Psyshock, is an easy fit for defensive teams along with Audino. Audino can scout Eggy's sets and then switch out to an appropriate answer, and can even wall a few sets. Defensive teams are already capable of handling Eggy, and even though it is somewhat of a strain, it can be done.

...and despite Exeggutor's presence, defensive teams have more viability in the meta then they ever had since Poliwrath's departure. This is undeniable. Why are we trying to ban Exeggutor when defensive teams have only improved? And do we even have an obligation to preserve stall as a playstyle?

It could even be argued that Exeggutor is healthy in some ways. It stops Stunfisk spam on every team, and punishes people for using it to fish for Static para vs everything. Faster Sleep Powder versions help vs the VERY CENTRALIZING lead Golem. Exeggutor is also one of the best Machoke answers out there, especially Colbur variants, and Machoke is an unhealthy pokemon in the meta.

Is it too versatile?
Does it have too many sets to counter, which means it is too difficult to prepare for? No. Eggy may have many sets, but each of them comes with heavy weaknesses. Choice Specs has to be locked into a move, and both STABs have many pokemon that can take advantage of it. Life Orb sets have the cost of being worn down quickly. Berry sets may provide some utility against offensive teams (Yache Berry counters Floatzel and other waters, while Colbur and Occa respectively let it survive vs Fire Types and Dark Types). However, they are not powerful and a non-threat to defensive teams, which is the whole reason Eggy is being suspected.

Does it fit on too many teams?
Nope. Exeggutor is not all that splashable. On offense, the most common archetype, it brings an enormous amount of weaknesses that are hard to account for (because you don't want to run defensive pokemon) and causes an inherent weakness to faster pokemon. On balance, the same problem applies because much of the team has to be built around Eggy, covering its weaknesses to Fire, Flying, Bug, etc.

Does it beat good teams in the meta?

Here, I'll take 4 very well known and strong teams in the meta and see how they match-up against Exeggutor- but not only that, if they can match up adequately against Exeggutor without resorting to forced strategies and gimmicks to counter it. Although this is purely anecdotal, it will still give you a good idea how teams don't have to go out of the way to deal with Eggy.

1. Dodmen's HO Electric Body
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/electric-body.3557821/

Being a hyper offense team, dodmen's team deals with Exeggutor well. Venipede sets up spikes to pressure it. Relicanth can take out a slightly weakened Eggy with Life Orb Head Smash and Jolly Nature, Purugly and Zebstrika both KO it (and Zebstrika bluffs Sap Sipper to get it from spamming grass STAB as well). Mr.Mime loses to it 1v1 unless it is very weakened, but Drifblim sets up Subs on it until it gets into Liechi range and can sweep.

2. Dundies' balance ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/¯-_-ツ-_-¯.3558925/

Dundies' team is perhaps overprepared for Exeggutor, but all of the pokemon on the team serve specific purposes that don't include beating Eggy. Right away, you notice Vullaby walls all Eggy sets without Ancient Power. Vullaby is immune to Sleep Powder and can beat non-Specs sets 1v1. Roselia outspeeds most Eggy variants and KOs with Sludge Bomb. Scarf Mr.Mime loses, obviously, but Rotom-F beats it if it can hit Blizzard.

3. CSI Miami's stall Tubular Bells
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tubular-bells.3559281/

The most successful stall team in the meta does not have a dediated Exeggutor answer. And yet, I've played against it several times including once with an Exeggutor, and it wasn't easy. How does Ranbu do it? He has Audino to scout for Specs Exeggutor and then switch out, regaining HP. If he suspects Sleep Powder and Psyshock, he might go to Gourgeist. He might switch to Grumpig with Signal Beam if he suspects a Psychic move. Overall, Eggy is a big threat to the team but not an absurd one.

4. Raiza's balance Xiangjiao
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xiangjiao.3557869/

Raiza has a strange team, that is perhaps weak to Exeggutor. Stunfisk obviously gives Eggy a free switch in. Audino can switch into most of Exeggutor's attacks but fears Sleep Powder. However, Jumpluff can switch into anything grass and revenge a weakened Eggy. Floatzel needs prior damage to revenge kill Eggy, but won't do anything against Yache variants. Scarf Solrock just loses. Monferno, however revenges Eggy with a powerful U-turn and gains momentum.

Going over these teams and others don't prove anything. You can still make a team that is weak to Exeggutor. But it is easy to build a team that handles Exeggutor while still using all viable pokemon that serve greater purposes than countering it. It is a part of the metagame, not a threat that you have to tailor a specific pokemon on your team to handle, like Vigoroth.

tldr: Exeggutor is not broken vs offense, balance, or stall. There's not much separating it from other powerful wallbreakers such as Rotom-F, Life Orb Mr.Mime, Ursaring, or Life Orb Monferno. Don't ban
While this post is really long, you gloss over the main pro ban point really quickly. "It doesn't beat balance because Pokemon can outspeed it" fundamentally misunderstands how balance works, if balance just has to sac something every time Exeggutor comes in and then switch a revenge killer, they're losing an important member of their team each time it comes in. It can also just switch out of whatever revenge killer you send in and force them to sac something again. "It can be revenge killed" really isn't a good anti-ban argument at all, and if the only way a balance team can deal with it is by revenge killing it there's a problem.
 

Thisbemyalt

Shiba sucks
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
While I am not quite pro ban I will add on to Magnemites criticism by saying that your RK criteria being "anything that outspeeds" is pretty wrong considering the berry sets, that you mention later on, encourage the opponent to bring out a RK that does not rely on ice or dark coverage unless you have already scouted Eggy's item. Since most of eggy's item choices aren't revealed on killing a sac it is a pretty big risk to revenge kill it with certain mons. Also while eggy has a poor defensive typing it does still have decent natural bulk which makes it relatively hard to ohko without super effective moves and then u have to deal with the above.
 

Many

Ehehehehh
is a Tiering Contributor
While this post is really long, you gloss over the main pro ban point really quickly. "It doesn't beat balance because Pokemon can outspeed it" fundamentally misunderstands how balance works, if balance just has to sac something every time Exeggutor comes in and then switch a revenge killer, they're losing an important member of their team each time it comes in. It can also just switch out of whatever revenge killer you send in and force them to sac something again. "It can be revenge killed" really isn't a good anti-ban argument at all, and if the only way a balance team can deal with it is by revenge killing it there's a problem.
You're acting like Eggy has Tinted Lens. Nowhere did I say that it gets a kill every time it comes in, which simply isn't the case. Exeggutor has to predict. There are a whole ton of pokemon that fit on common balance teams that can switch into Exeggutor's grass STAB, which includes Bouffalant, Monferno, Rapidash, Jumpluff, Zebstrika, and Sawsbuck. Switching into the Psychic STAB is harder but it still has common balance switch-ins such as Grumpig, Vullaby, Pawniard, Mightyena, Metang, etc. But the lack of switch-ins for the Psychic STAB has less to do with Eggy then the PU meta being inherently weak to Psychic, and you must take in the consideration that the pokemon that Eggy revenge kills don't actually take that much damage from the Psychic STAB.

Of course, if you predict wrong, Eggy will still get kills. And that's OK. Because when you play balance, you naturally WILL have pokemon that outspeed and KO Eggy. Most teams have about 2-3, some have 4. Relying on revenge killing a mon isn't that bad when the mon is simply so slow that nearly half the team can revenge it. For example, I often make balance teams that rarely have a true switch-in to Machoke (don't call me bad for not running Gourgeist-Super or Arbok on every team)

Berry sets may be harder to revenge kill especially if you don't know whether it is Berry or not, but it evens out because it is so much less threatening for defensive builds and the damage output is a lot lower. It simultaneously has less revenge killers but a lot more switch-ins because unboosted Psychic STAB is much less threatening. For example, here are some calcs:
252+ SpA Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 153-181 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 153-181 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Audino: 159-187 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

About the natural bulk, that's a fair point. But Eggy will rarely stay at full health during a match, especially if the only times it gets a free switch are very rare (only Stunfisk, defensive Relicanth, and Solrock, and it still gets worn down switching into Toxic/Will-o/Head Smash). And Eggy's ridiculous amount of weaknesses still trump its natural bulk in most cases- especially when you compare to fellow balance breakers like Stoutland and Machoke it is much easier to KO.

I still am failing to see any arguments that make me convinced that Eggy is any more broken than say Life Orb Kadabra, or non-choice Rotom-F.
 
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The only true counters for Exeggutor are Vullaby and bulky Zweilous making the tbuilding around the grass thing easier with pokèmons which can handle these two. Exeggutor can find easily chances to enter in field on ground mons which are everywhere in the current tier and if you don't have the two classic mons it OHKOs or 2OHKOs everything and it has also access to Sleep Powder which make the opponent more hard to predict. Please don't compare this 383 spatk mon with Kadabra because it sounds ridicolous, Exeggutor breaks things like Audino and Lickytung meanwhile the other mon not.
Exeggutor can also be Sunny Day sweeper, Choice Specs, Harvest, Life Orb etc, making the oppo hard life because he had to scout the set too. Yeah Exeggutor is not so fast but has a decent speed to outspeed slow mons and walls and with double stab Leaf Storm + Psyshock hits special and physical walls.. And you have other 5 mons to give momentum to the grass mon and to have a good control against top threat list mons.

Please ban Exeggutor, if not the metagame will be centralised on him more without Vigoroth which will be obviously banned.
 

ShuckleDeath

They call me the kign of typos
is an official Team Rater
I have a Replay here showing why Eggy is such a problem I had Multiple answers for it but it was paired with stunfisk. I thought I won the game at team Preview but the Eggy was the Yache berry variant. With Eggy in the teir it is just so hard to build teams. I have been losing interest in building in PU since the Eggy drop and I have heard other respected players say the same thing. Just look at the replay I won at team Preview but lost because of a certain Eggy variant.

Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pususpecttest-311329402
 
Alright don't mind me if I sound stupid at some points, getting back in the tier myself and I just wanted to share what I noticed in the matches I played on the ladder (Unable to get reqs due to me not being able to log into Showdown for some time at the end but that's not the case).

  • Exeggutor is a huge threat, being extremely hard to switch in to and being hard to beat when it gets provided with the proper support. I seen it somewhere up here as well but Stunfisk + Exeggutor is a pretty hard duo itself to defeat. I remember from one of my games, Exeggutor would do 70-80% to a whole person's team w. Leaf Storm alone. I feel that the Life Orb Sleep Powder + 3 Attack set is extremely strong and the Pokemon itself shouldn't be in the tier due to the lack of answers for it the tier actually has. I want this thing gone.

  • I'm gonna hold neutral on Vigoroth as I don't have much experience using it or playing against it but from watching a few battles, it seems like a pain in the ass.

Exeggutor just got here...

 

BulbaSword

all I ever wanted was to see you smiling
Vigoroth: I don't think I can say much that has not been said about this monster that has not already been said. It beats most teams on matchup alone, and beats the other half after you get rid of, or even whittle down one of its few checks. With sub or taunt it pp stalls most of the ghost types that "counter" it, and beats those too. After a free sub it can beat machoke. Simply put the current PU meta has nothing to deal with it, so like everyone else I'm voting ban.

Exeggutor: While this is obviously not as clear cut as the former, what makes exeggutor broken is its versatility, no matter what you bring to check or counter it, one of its (fairly common and usable) sets will beat it. Specs ancient power set 2hkoes vullaby after rocks, sleep powder allows it to beat almost all other checks and counters. It makes stall, defensive, and balanced playstyles very difficult to use single-handedly by getting a kill nearly every time it comes in, with little drawback to using it as it has decent bulk and can switch into many prominent mons in the meta. Its presence in the tier limits teambuilding drastically, requiring teams to run one of its few checks/counters and hope they brought the right one for the set it's running. All in all PU would be much healthier without exeggutor around.
 
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