I've used this set a bit, and it's insanely threatening to defensive teams. Fire Blast essentially turns Mawile from a slow, decently strong Pokemon that can't take many hits or get past physical walls into a very good wallbreaker. Life Orb Mawile 2HKOes just about everything in the tier, and its amazing typing and decent physical bulk mean that many defensive mons can't really touch it (especially VULLABY), so it can get some free switches here and there and start throwing out really strong moves. SD will be pretty good too, but I don't think it will be as good since it relies way more on Sucker Punch and is easily checked by a few common mons, particularly Monferno. However, on webs this is much less of an issue, so I think SD Mawile will shine there. Defensive seems like it will have a lot of potential too (it was good in BW PU even without the fairy typing), but I haven't really seen anyone use it yet. Finally, SD pass sets might be pretty good as well.
Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Blast
Hey, I didn't say it was good. It's kind of like that god-awful AV Crustle set I came up with: It's interesting, but it's not viable at all. Anyways, speaking of defensive Fire-types...
There is no reason to use Heat Wave in this kind of set (or any set in case of almost any poke actually) because the power difference between Flamethrower and Heat Wave is negligible but the accuracy difference can clearly make you lose a game... And if you compare the differences between Heat Wave and Fire Blast then the accuracy difference is just lower than the difference in power... So, if you want power go with Fire Blast but this kind of set usually likes reliability and then your move should just be Flamethrower!
I agree, Machoke is honestly ruining the tier with how overcentralizing and strong it is. I hate battling it, I feel like scum using it, I get treated like scum using it (d-punch) and it's versatile enough that you can predict wrong and get horribly punished by it. If you don't burn the no-guard set, you're gonna be getting hit hard by dynamic punches all game, but if you do burn it and it ends up being guts, guts boosted Close Combats are NEVER fun to deal with. Ever.I was holding this off because I didn't want to create any controversy for PUPL...after seeing the RU suspect test I gained confidence that this is indeed possible.
What's the problem? Machoke.
Machoke is the single most unhealthy, broken, and annoying pokemon to face in the tier. I think almost everyone can agree with me that it is making the metagame less fun and is a huge problem to teambuild and play against. At first offensive pressure was enough to keep this thing down, but ever since the invention of the Defensive Rest-Talk set it just got a lot harder to deal with. I'm sure even some of the newer players who only learned PUPL are also questioning "Why is this mon legal?" Enough is enough, it's time to suspect this thing.
here are my points:
1. Machoke is broken. Machoke is one of the most ridiculous pokemon to face as it 1v1s pretty much every pokemon that is not a fighting resist. Due to its immense bulk with Eviolite and possible defensive investment, many offensive pokemon struggle to 2HKO or even 3HKO this thing. However it nearly always 2HKOs offensive pokemon back with Dynamic Punch or Knock Off- add to this a potential 50% chance Dynamic Punch full confusion, and Machoke can rest up and simply forget it got damaged at all. Simply by bringing it in vs an offensive pokemon can cause them to sack it to get damage off on Machoke- this is pretty much the definition of broken. In fact, it is not uncommon to see people Machoke taking out two or three pokemon, as they struggle to break through this thing, leaving the rest of their teams easy picking. It has just way too good of a matchup vs a majority of PU to be balanced in this tier.
2. Machoke has few counters. Gourgeist-Super is the only true switch-in to Machoke. That's it. There's just one ghost type who can reliably switch it in and stall it out- and guess what- it doesn't fit on offensive teams or even offensive-leaning balance, and it provides . You might say "Well there are some fighting resists." That's certainly true- Swanna, Jumpluff, Grumpig, Mime, defensive Mawile, Arbok can all switch in on Dynamic Punch reasonably, and will most likely beat Machoke in a 1v1 situation. However here's the problem- Dynamic Punch confusion gives them the incredible 50% chance to lose total momentum for their team. If the foe's Arbok hits itself in confusion, you can switch to the Arbok check, Golem, without losing any momentum or having Sturdy broken or anything. Machoke is able to reward the user 50% of time with free switches simply by using Machoke. Finally, although I'm focusing mainly on the most broken of sets, defensive Rest-Talk, half the pokemon on this list get lured by Offensive Machoke sets. T-punch lures Swanna, Ice Punch lures Jumpluff, Earthquake lures Arbok, etc. And it can fit 2 of these moves on the same set! There really isn't any reliable way to deal with Machoke and not get into a possible 50% loss of all momentum without using Gourgeist-Super, and it's awful.
3. Machoke is overcentralizing. Machoke is the single scariest threat I have to prepare for when teambuilding. This alone does not mean it should be banned, but it is the sheer extent at which it warps teambuilding. You may say stuff like Rotom-F and Floatzel are similar, but the situation is entirely different. You can have some pokemon weak vs Floatzel or Rotom-F on your team, but they will never threaten to 1v1 your entire team if that one pokemon dies. All you really need are one check/counter to them, and then multiple pokemon that can at least try to get some damage on it or revenge killing. Machoke is different- simply having one fighting resist isn't enough- what if that gets confused, and then just dies? Machoke proceeds to 1v1 huge or at least large portions of your team. I've found that in order to not have a large disadvantage against Machoke you need to pack multiple fighting resists/immunities on your team (which is a lot considering how few reliable fighting resists PU has. PU is not NU). It's really made me paranoid when building especially when building without Gourgeist-Super. Simply relying on offensive pressure is not enough, because it has happened so many times as you try to Knock Off Machoke or wear it down to defeatable range, you get confused and actually accomplish very little. Dynamic Punch is such a massive massive copout that makes offensive pressure, or even offensive pressure + 1 fighting resist, a very unsatisfactory way to deal with Machoke. Coupled with all the offensive threats you already want to deal with, Machoke just makes teambuilding in PU a lot harder and a lot les fun, when you have to insert your obligatory fighting resist to not get destroyed.
4. Machoke makes the tier less fun. Let's be honest. Nobody likes playing against confusion. No one likes being forced to take a Dynamic Punch and getting super nervous just hoping you won't hit yourself because then you'll lose the match. Yeah I know, we can't ban confusion- it's part of pokemon, and we can't ban Dynamic Punch either. But we can ban one of the single best and most popular pokemon in the tier, who with its sheer bulk is able to confuse literally every pokemon on a team. Machoke's Dynamic Punch makes the game less skillful and literally turns the game into a bunch of 50-50s. If we don't want to reward people winning matches by coinflips time after time again, then we should make a move to get this pokemon out of the tier.
Here are some sample calcs for those who don't play much PU, using Machoke's defensive rest-talk spread, just to show the insane bulk it really has:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
I'll add replays later when I have more time.
so yeah, let's kick this cancerous shit out of PU :)
Unfortunately, yes, it is. If anyone remembers the old guts wallbreaker set, it is honestly impossible to switch into. Game after game I find myself leading with it, getting a kill, and switching out to do the same later. It has boosted the viability of Psychic types like Mr. Mime and Grumpig by an immense amount, as they can check it.I was holding this off because I didn't want to create any controversy for PUPL...after seeing the RU suspect test I gained confidence that this is indeed possible.
What's the problem? Machoke.
Machoke is the single most unhealthy, broken, and annoying pokemon to face in the tier. I think almost everyone can agree with me that it is making the metagame less fun and is a huge problem to teambuild and play against. At first offensive pressure was enough to keep this thing down, but ever since the invention of the Defensive Rest-Talk set it just got a lot harder to deal with. I'm sure even some of the newer players who only learned PUPL are also questioning "Why is this mon legal?" Enough is enough, it's time to suspect this thing.
here are my points:
1. Machoke is broken. Machoke is one of the most ridiculous pokemon to face as it 1v1s pretty much every pokemon that is not a fighting resist. Due to its immense bulk with Eviolite and possible defensive investment, many offensive pokemon struggle to 2HKO or even 3HKO this thing. However it nearly always 2HKOs offensive pokemon back with Dynamic Punch or Knock Off- add to this a potential 50% chance Dynamic Punch full confusion, and Machoke can rest up and simply forget it got damaged at all. Simply by bringing it in vs an offensive pokemon can cause them to sack it to get damage off on Machoke- this is pretty much the definition of broken. In fact, it is not uncommon to see people Machoke taking out two or three pokemon, as they struggle to break through this thing, leaving the rest of their teams easy picking. It has just way too good of a matchup vs a majority of PU to be balanced in this tier.
2. Machoke has few counters. Gourgeist-Super is the only true switch-in to Machoke. That's it. There's just one ghost type who can reliably switch it in and stall it out- and guess what- it doesn't fit on offensive teams or even offensive-leaning balance, and it provides . You might say "Well there are some fighting resists." That's certainly true- Swanna, Jumpluff, Grumpig, Mime, defensive Mawile, Arbok can all switch in on Dynamic Punch reasonably, and will most likely beat Machoke in a 1v1 situation. However here's the problem- Dynamic Punch confusion gives them the incredible 50% chance to lose total momentum for their team. If the foe's Arbok hits itself in confusion, you can switch to the Arbok check, Golem, without losing any momentum or having Sturdy broken or anything. Machoke is able to reward the user 50% of time with free switches simply by using Machoke. Finally, although I'm focusing mainly on the most broken of sets, defensive Rest-Talk, half the pokemon on this list get lured by Offensive Machoke sets. T-punch lures Swanna, Ice Punch lures Jumpluff, Earthquake lures Arbok, etc. And it can fit 2 of these moves on the same set! There really isn't any reliable way to deal with Machoke and not get into a possible 50% loss of all momentum without using Gourgeist-Super, and it's awful.
3. Machoke is overcentralizing. Machoke is the single scariest threat I have to prepare for when teambuilding. This alone does not mean it should be banned, but it is the sheer extent at which it warps teambuilding. You may say stuff like Rotom-F and Floatzel are similar, but the situation is entirely different. You can have some pokemon weak vs Floatzel or Rotom-F on your team, but they will never threaten to 1v1 your entire team if that one pokemon dies. All you really need are one check/counter to them, and then multiple pokemon that can at least try to get some damage on it or revenge killing. Machoke is different- simply having one fighting resist isn't enough- what if that gets confused, and then just dies? Machoke proceeds to 1v1 huge or at least large portions of your team. I've found that in order to not have a large disadvantage against Machoke you need to pack multiple fighting resists/immunities on your team (which is a lot considering how few reliable fighting resists PU has. PU is not NU). It's really made me paranoid when building especially when building without Gourgeist-Super. Simply relying on offensive pressure is not enough, because it has happened so many times as you try to Knock Off Machoke or wear it down to defeatable range, you get confused and actually accomplish very little. Dynamic Punch is such a massive massive copout that makes offensive pressure, or even offensive pressure + 1 fighting resist, a very unsatisfactory way to deal with Machoke. Coupled with all the offensive threats you already want to deal with, Machoke just makes teambuilding in PU a lot harder and a lot les fun, when you have to insert your obligatory fighting resist to not get destroyed.
4. Machoke makes the tier less fun. Let's be honest. Nobody likes playing against confusion. No one likes being forced to take a Dynamic Punch and getting super nervous just hoping you won't hit yourself because then you'll lose the match. Yeah I know, we can't ban confusion- it's part of pokemon, and we can't ban Dynamic Punch either. But we can ban one of the single best and most popular pokemon in the tier, who with its sheer bulk is able to confuse literally every pokemon on a team. Machoke's Dynamic Punch makes the game less skillful and literally turns the game into a bunch of 50-50s. If we don't want to reward people winning matches by coinflips time after time again, then we should make a move to get this pokemon out of the tier.
Here are some sample calcs for those who don't play much PU, using Machoke's defensive rest-talk spread, just to show the insane bulk it really has:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
I'll add replays later when I have more time.
so yeah, let's kick this cancerous shit out of PU :)
I also just want to point out that you're overestimating the shit out of Machoke and even Simisear. You may have just worded this miscorrectly, but saying Guts Machoke and Life Orb Simisear are impossible to switch into is just wrong. Any AoA Machoke set is completely countered by Gourgeist-XL and checked by things like Swalot and Swanna, depending on coverage moves. Same goes for Simisear, as things like Stunfisk and defensive Swanna have no trouble switching in, so I'd suggest either rewording this or going more in-depth with your research.
I actually feel Mawile doesn't Machoke as well as we first thought. It's offensive set of coarse threatens Machoke but not any more than say Specs Mr.Mime or LO Swanna. with the pivot set it is still taking ~25 % from offenisve Machoke's dynamic Punch, and on top of theis it even struggles to pivot afterward as the confusion is passed with it
Yeah I agree Machoke is annoying to face due to it's sheer bulk and D-Punch spam. As MoM stated, Choke is over-centralizing, so I'll be talking about how it's molded offense in PU. For offensive teams, Machoke can be a pain to face whether you're prepared or not. This is because Machoke has the option of going either offensive or defensive, Guts or No Guard.I was holding this off because I didn't want to create any controversy for PUPL...after seeing the RU suspect test I gained confidence that this is indeed possible.
What's the problem? Machoke.
Machoke is the single most unhealthy, broken, and annoying pokemon to face in the tier. I think almost everyone can agree with me that it is making the metagame less fun and is a huge problem to teambuild and play against. At first offensive pressure was enough to keep this thing down, but ever since the invention of the Defensive Rest-Talk set it just got a lot harder to deal with. I'm sure even some of the newer players who only learned PUPL are also questioning "Why is this mon legal?" Enough is enough, it's time to suspect this thing.
here are my points:
1. Machoke is broken. Machoke is one of the most ridiculous pokemon to face as it 1v1s pretty much every pokemon that is not a fighting resist. Due to its immense bulk with Eviolite and possible defensive investment, many offensive pokemon struggle to 2HKO or even 3HKO this thing. However it nearly always 2HKOs offensive pokemon back with Dynamic Punch or Knock Off- add to this a potential 50% chance Dynamic Punch full confusion, and Machoke can rest up and simply forget it got damaged at all. Simply by bringing it in vs an offensive pokemon can cause them to sack it to get damage off on Machoke- this is pretty much the definition of broken. In fact, it is not uncommon to see people Machoke taking out two or three pokemon, as they struggle to break through this thing, leaving the rest of their teams easy picking. It has just way too good of a matchup vs a majority of PU to be balanced in this tier.
2. Machoke has few counters. Gourgeist-Super is the only true switch-in to Machoke. That's it. There's just one ghost type who can reliably switch it in and stall it out- and guess what- it doesn't fit on offensive teams or even offensive-leaning balance, and it provides . You might say "Well there are some fighting resists." That's certainly true- Swanna, Jumpluff, Grumpig, Mime, defensive Mawile, Arbok can all switch in on Dynamic Punch reasonably, and will most likely beat Machoke in a 1v1 situation. However here's the problem- Dynamic Punch confusion gives them the incredible 50% chance to lose total momentum for their team. If the foe's Arbok hits itself in confusion, you can switch to the Arbok check, Golem, without losing any momentum or having Sturdy broken or anything. Machoke is able to reward the user 50% of time with free switches simply by using Machoke. Finally, although I'm focusing mainly on the most broken of sets, defensive Rest-Talk, half the pokemon on this list get lured by Offensive Machoke sets. T-punch lures Swanna, Ice Punch lures Jumpluff, Earthquake lures Arbok, etc. And it can fit 2 of these moves on the same set! There really isn't any reliable way to deal with Machoke and not get into a possible 50% loss of all momentum without using Gourgeist-Super, and it's awful.
3. Machoke is overcentralizing. Machoke is the single scariest threat I have to prepare for when teambuilding. This alone does not mean it should be banned, but it is the sheer extent at which it warps teambuilding. You may say stuff like Rotom-F and Floatzel are similar, but the situation is entirely different. You can have some pokemon weak vs Floatzel or Rotom-F on your team, but they will never threaten to 1v1 your entire team if that one pokemon dies. All you really need are one check/counter to them, and then multiple pokemon that can at least try to get some damage on it or revenge killing. Machoke is different- simply having one fighting resist isn't enough- what if that gets confused, and then just dies? Machoke proceeds to 1v1 huge or at least large portions of your team. I've found that in order to not have a large disadvantage against Machoke you need to pack multiple fighting resists/immunities on your team (which is a lot considering how few reliable fighting resists PU has. PU is not NU). It's really made me paranoid when building especially when building without Gourgeist-Super. Simply relying on offensive pressure is not enough, because it has happened so many times as you try to Knock Off Machoke or wear it down to defeatable range, you get confused and actually accomplish very little. Dynamic Punch is such a massive massive copout that makes offensive pressure, or even offensive pressure + 1 fighting resist, a very unsatisfactory way to deal with Machoke. Coupled with all the offensive threats you already want to deal with, Machoke just makes teambuilding in PU a lot harder and a lot les fun, when you have to insert your obligatory fighting resist to not get destroyed.
4. Machoke makes the tier less fun. Let's be honest. Nobody likes playing against confusion. No one likes being forced to take a Dynamic Punch and getting super nervous just hoping you won't hit yourself because then you'll lose the match. Yeah I know, we can't ban confusion- it's part of pokemon, and we can't ban Dynamic Punch either. But we can ban one of the single best and most popular pokemon in the tier, who with its sheer bulk is able to confuse literally every pokemon on a team. Machoke's Dynamic Punch makes the game less skillful and literally turns the game into a bunch of 50-50s. If we don't want to reward people winning matches by coinflips time after time again, then we should make a move to get this pokemon out of the tier.
Here are some sample calcs for those who don't play much PU, using Machoke's defensive rest-talk spread, just to show the insane bulk it really has:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
I'll add replays later when I have more time.
so yeah, let's kick this cancerous shit out of PU :)
I'm aware that Simisear is not an A+ -rank mon, and I understand that; I pointed out Simisear because I feel players are underestimating its breaking capabilities in the current meta. I've used Simisear a lot, and while not flawless, it gets the job done very well, and I feel it deserves more recognition. That they're "impossible to switch into" was a hyperbole.
This post isn't really wrong about anything but it kind of misses the point. Machoke is a totally unique case and there's no cause to be worried of a slippery slope here since there's clearly nothing like it and probably won't be unless gen 7 puts out something totally ridiculous, which we can deal with then. Additionally, it's based on the Smogon banning philosophy that we want to avoid complex bans. Yes, we absolutely do. However, it's also a fact that PU players don't want to deal with confusion bullshit. Yet Machoke is healthy for the tier, I agree with Dundies on this. Complex ban is the most ideal option in this case. There's precedent with excadrill in BW I believe where people wanted drill but sand rush was stupid, I don't know much about it so it might be a flawed comparison. But anyway, nothing you said is wrong but it also misses the point that a complex ban would be preferable to losing a good mon or leaving Dpunch in the tier.
