Hey guys. This is finally a step in the right direction. I'll post all my thoughts later. Cause this is going to take a while :)
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np: RU Stage 1 - Welcome to the Jungle!
- Thread starter Nails
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Hey guys, I just started fiddling with RU, and I have to say I also like it better than OU. Finally, an almost weatherless tier where many of my favorite pokemon can shine. The only problem with the bans is now I need to replace 2 pokemon for my RU competitive scrample. RIP Banker and Dizzy, you have moved on to bigger and better things, and good luck to you both in UU!! I hope to use you guys again on a UU team if I ever decide to start. Back on topic, I am SO glad Cresselia and Yanmega are gone, they were just to boring and too annoying for my tastes.
Please read the OP... specifically
andJabba said:
I don't write that stuff for my health. We aren't sure what's going on except that it's being worked on. At this point, I'll just be deleting any posts about the voting and banning process itself, as they won't add anything to the discussion. From talks with Jabba no one's really sure what's going on, so asking about it isn't going to lead anywhere and will just derail the thread.ME said:
Alakazam I agree with, but i'm not sure about charizard yet. He does have the power to blast through unprepared teams, but solar power, LO and his SR weakness don't see him sticking around for too long, not to mention he is only 100 base speed.
IMO the biggest offender atm is Sableye. It's almost impossible to run any kind of defensive team because he just fucks them over so hard with priority Taunt/Toxic/Will-O-Wisp/Recover. Not only that, but he also has priority Rain Dance and Sunny Day, a huge boon to any weather team. The fact that he downright dgaf about any kind of physical and special attacker that hasn't already accumulated too many boosts or isn't behind a Sub kind of pushes him over the edge.
Sun teams are pretty strong I'll admit. I'm running a team with both specially defensive Altaria, specially defensive Clefable, and specially defensive Sableye and I still have problems with them. I need to play some more and I'll talk with more people, but something about it needs to change.
So yeah, don't expect RU to stay the same forever cuz it's definitely not balanced yet.
EDIT: On Alakazam: idk about calling him broken, but he's definitely good I'll admit. People need to play a little more with Drapion/Sableye/Skuntank/Absol/Honchkrow more though if you're having problems with him. Admittingly they don't like Calm Mind-boosted hits, but he's OHKOed by Pursuit/Sucker Punch from most of the Dark-types in the tier.
Sun teams are pretty strong I'll admit. I'm running a team with both specially defensive Altaria, specially defensive Clefable, and specially defensive Sableye and I still have problems with them. I need to play some more and I'll talk with more people, but something about it needs to change.
So yeah, don't expect RU to stay the same forever cuz it's definitely not balanced yet.
EDIT: On Alakazam: idk about calling him broken, but he's definitely good I'll admit. People need to play a little more with Drapion/Sableye/Skuntank/Absol/Honchkrow more though if you're having problems with him. Admittingly they don't like Calm Mind-boosted hits, but he's OHKOed by Pursuit/Sucker Punch from most of the Dark-types in the tier.
Yeah, that's pretty much the core elements of offensive sun team right there,
and the counterpart Rain has Kabutops, Ludicolo, Omastar and Gorebyss.
Both kind of teams are really really hard to stop, especially with Sableye
having access to priority Rain Dance and Sunny Day, as mentioned already.
btw, running both on the same Sableye is funny.
There's many ways in which we can deal with this, but something needs to
be done; I personally don't want RU to be swamped by weather wars.
On the other hand, I really like RU, I already fought a couple of matches in
stage 1 and I gotta say, I think it's pretty diverse and I've seen a lot of
different kind of teams and Pokémon, which is a good thing.
Well, you can always run Sub + 3 attack if you fear SPer/Pursuiters. Remember that Alaka can OHKO Absol and Honch, Sableye rarely ever uses those moves and i dont think Skuntank/Drapion can live through SB + FB (not making calcs right now, g2g soon)
Choice Socks, base 100 speed IS high for the tier. Specially when most things that are faster than you just cant switch in.
Yes, i agree that SR severely thickens Zard's life, but a 4x weakness didnt save Yanmega from banning. I know, Blastoise was the best spinner in the meta and bla bla bla, but you can always use claydol (nice resistances) /hitmonchan (nice Sdef) /hitmonlee (physical RU starmie with worst resists) to spin them away or just use alomomola for base 63 wishes (charizard's is 78, meaning it will be almost a full recover)
IMO, Charizard is replacing yanmega. The only big difference is that Flareon walls its choiced moves all day long, while nothing really liked to switch on a bug buzz.
Choice Socks, base 100 speed IS high for the tier. Specially when most things that are faster than you just cant switch in.
Yes, i agree that SR severely thickens Zard's life, but a 4x weakness didnt save Yanmega from banning. I know, Blastoise was the best spinner in the meta and bla bla bla, but you can always use claydol (nice resistances) /hitmonchan (nice Sdef) /hitmonlee (physical RU starmie with worst resists) to spin them away or just use alomomola for base 63 wishes (charizard's is 78, meaning it will be almost a full recover)
IMO, Charizard is replacing yanmega. The only big difference is that Flareon walls its choiced moves all day long, while nothing really liked to switch on a bug buzz.
Anyone here can think up a good counter/check to Sableye?
All I can come up with is Swellow, Ursaring and Raticate because they're immune to nightshade and guts only makes them stronger after status.
Natu can stop all of sableye's support moves but then it becomes a PP wall of who has the most roost/recover.
All Fire types, Floatzel with waterveil, pokemon with Guts and magic guard and anything with a strong special attack... hmmm...
All I can come up with is Swellow, Ursaring and Raticate because they're immune to nightshade and guts only makes them stronger after status.
Natu can stop all of sableye's support moves but then it becomes a PP wall of who has the most roost/recover.
All Fire types, Floatzel with waterveil, pokemon with Guts and magic guard and anything with a strong special attack... hmmm...
Floatzel is a good check, as it can taunt Sableye or potentially switcheroo him a choiced item. I've been using my banded Entei to check him, as most sableyes I've faced have been specially bulky, so flare blitz does more than he can recover up.
I'd say Specs Moltres is better, unless you're using Charizard in the sun. Moltres has better bulk and better special attack. It's not like there is much in between the 90-100 base speed tier anyways. (The few that are there are usually scarfed like Primeape and Krookodile.) Slowking also walls non Sun boosted Charizard's. Speaking of Slowking, he needs to be used more. He's just such a beast that walls a ton (mainly special attackers but some physical attackers too) and can do some heavy damage back.
Natu is the best switch into sableye. Then you have the stuff like swellow and floatzel (good idea on floatzel btw) and fire types and sort of clefable (will look into clefable more, since it does hate taunt) who don't care about burns. Powerful special attackers like accelgor (hey look a fast powerful specially based bug type), porygonz, omastar (just hit it with life orb surfs), etc can deal damage faster than it can recover. Then you have the less reliable stuff like magic coat (only less reliable because it's dead weight against most other stuff), trick, toxicing it/tspikes, that are more general and just kind of cripple it, but have varying degrees of effectiveness when it comes to actually stopping it.
I find any Fire type is a good counter to Sableye. With fire types not being affected by Will-O-wisp all it can do is sub/recover/taunt/confuse ray just keep attacking until it switches.
Magic Gaurd Zam also works for the same reasaon. Will-O-Wisp doesn't affect it.
Gastrodon moving to OU kind of pissed me off... just because people use it to counter Drizzle whoring does not mean it should be ripped from RU. And now with Blastoise gone too, Slowking is basically the only good specially defensive Water-type in RU. That and Eviolite users like Wartortle and Marshtomp.
And wartortle/marshtomp are nothing compared to their evolved forms. They can't even learn roar lol. I'm presonally happy with gastrodon going up to OU. Imo it's always been a liitle too overpowered to be used in the lower tiers. As for slowking. I tried using it as almost a nerf'd cresselia. It was horrible :(
Slowking is a nerfed cresselia? Have you used Slowking? Slowking's role is nothing like Cress, nor will it ever be. Slowking is supposed to tank special attackers (and some physical attackers)while spreading status and actually being able to dent stuff. It can also run a curse/cm set if it wants, though those usually aren't that good. Slowking has a surprisingly wide special movepool that is good and because of regenerator and slack off, it's really hard to break through.
Well then you're using Slowking wrong. He's a special pivot, and with his mammoth defenses and regenerator nobody does it better than him. Bring him in on something he threatens, and switch to gain momentum, recovering hopefully all lost health.
EDIT: damn chris
What have spreads for Hitmonchan been? I like him but I have a feeling the 252/252/4 i'm using isn't optimal.
EDIT: damn chris
What have spreads for Hitmonchan been? I like him but I have a feeling the 252/252/4 i'm using isn't optimal.
Taunt and Switcheroo only works if Floatzel Uses it on the switch or else Sableye will just outspeed you and taunt you before you have a chance. Although a Choice band / Life Orb Waterfall will Hurt Sableye and you can finish if off with Aqua Jet, before it can recover.
Nails said:
Yeah but 1 v 1 it Becomes a Night Shade war and whoever has the most recover/roost wins, especially if Sableye is hit by it's own Will o wisp.
I've been using Natu recently, just because Sableye is a pain to deal with and Natu is unexpectedly bulky, I send in Natu as Fodder sometimes so my next pokemon can come in on the revenge only to find out it's 3hko by things like Scollipede Megahorn with a Sash, but then Scollipede uses rockslide and it still doesn't die but flinch hax gets me ah well...
Natu can also Stop Ferroseed and Gligar dead too.
I said I was trying it as a Cresselia. I didn't say I really expected it to work. I was running a Trick Cresselia, saw that Slowking got all the same moves, and tried it out. Thats it.
Swellow, Ursaring and Floatzel are rarely seen, and i've never seen one Natu so far. Clefable gets taunted and has no way to really hurt sableye. Thanks to priority taunt, it doesn't fear trick or toxic, and is often played with a spinner or a poison type to absorb the TSpikes. You can hurt it with powerful special attacks....but the opponent can just switch out to a bulky special pokemon.
Sableye is not unbeatable, but it grants too many advantages to a team. Its presence makes a late game physical sweep impossible(except with Entei) and can cripple any stall with prio Taunt and Recover. If the only way to deal with it is to play a fire type or a rarely seen pokemon just to handle it, it is an overcentralization of the metagame. Seriously, would anyone deny that Sableye should be banned from RU ASAP?
If you try to beat Sableye 1 vs 1 by switching in for most things, you'll get burned--both figuratively and literally. Physical attackers should never switch into Sableye, and so shouldn't stallers. However, Sableye's biggest weakness is that it's hard-pressed to switch into anything. If you're running 252 / 252 Bold spread, the Sableye is heavily damaged by special attacks from likes of Claydol (e.i. bad special attacks) 252 / 252 Calm faces similar problems in that even after the burn, Sableye's physical defenses are no longer that great. In fact, those special EVs make little difference in face of strong special attackers. You should always be able to force out Sableye with something on your team. If you force it out, then the opponent will have to work to get Sableye in without getting statused by a wall, or getting hit hard by an attacker. Also, most Stall teams nowadays carry a Sableye of their own with extra speed EVs to prevent it from steamrolling their team. They need a good spinblocker anyways.
Or if you just don't like having to think about these things, just use Magic Guard Zam... that laughs at Sableyes completely, and that's not by any stretch of imagination 'niche' or 'situational.'
BTW, I'm not saying that Sableye is bad. It's incredibly good, and hopefully it will jump to UU due to usage without us having to ban it. Hazards support is incredible because it forces so many switches, and Hazard supporter + Sableye + Spikes-abusing, Special-based set-upper is an incredible combination. With the major Special wall / specially defensive pHazer being Munchlax--it always needs Rest / Sleep Talk / Whirlwind / Body Slam to function properly, and usually has no room for Toxic--who is easily abused by Sableye, the sweeper usually has safe sail ahead. Munchie will get wore down by Spikes, and it will never wake up thanks to Sableye taunt.
Or if you just don't like having to think about these things, just use Magic Guard Zam... that laughs at Sableyes completely, and that's not by any stretch of imagination 'niche' or 'situational.'
BTW, I'm not saying that Sableye is bad. It's incredibly good, and hopefully it will jump to UU due to usage without us having to ban it. Hazards support is incredible because it forces so many switches, and Hazard supporter + Sableye + Spikes-abusing, Special-based set-upper is an incredible combination. With the major Special wall / specially defensive pHazer being Munchlax--it always needs Rest / Sleep Talk / Whirlwind / Body Slam to function properly, and usually has no room for Toxic--who is easily abused by Sableye, the sweeper usually has safe sail ahead. Munchie will get wore down by Spikes, and it will never wake up thanks to Sableye taunt.
ugh...... how many times do i have to say this, specially defensive sableye is NOT 2hkoed by LO zam's shadow ball so alakazam doesn't laugh at sableye at all. in fact those evs do make a pretty big difference with special bulk.
for example, using alakazam again,
alakazam's LO shadow ball vs physically defensive sableye
166 - 196 (54.61% - 64.47%)
alakazam's LO shadow ball vs specially defensive sableye
110 - 130 (36.18% - 42.76%)
as you can see, the special bulk does makea relativley large difference
now with your argument about not having enough physical bulk to mange with a specially defensive spread, lets take honchkrow for example,
honchkrow's burned LO brave bird vs physically defensive sableye
118 - 139 (38.82% - 45.72%)
honchkrow's burned LO brave bird vs specially defensive sableye
172 - 204 (56.58% - 67.11%)
it is still a relatively large difference but if specially defensive sableye spams recover, it can still manage as honchkrow slowly kills itself to bb recoil, while taunting its roosts and subs. which is something not doable vs magic guard alakazam. as far as i know, honchkrow's brave bird is one of the strongest physical attacks in the metagame, and if sableye can still manage to take on one of those with a specially defensive spread, i argue that specially defensive sableye is superior to physically defensive sableye. in fact the special defensive investment makes a slightly larger difference in bulk than physically defensive does. this makes it slightly bulkier overall including will-o-wisp's cushion against physical attacks.
OK, first time you're said that in the thread, but if you want to say 'how many times do I have to say this" then I really don't mind that. I guess I was wrong about it completely dominating, but then you have to realize you'll have to perfect with your taunts and recovers so because you don't want to get nailed with +1 LO Shadow Ball.
(edit: mehhhhh even then +0 Shadow Ball is more like a 3HKO at full health so you probably can get off with just taunting every three turns.)
My point was not about how physically defensive sableye is better. Of course specially defensive variant offers better overall bulk after the Will-o-wisp. I was talking about how it's hard to switch Sableye into things, and that point still stands. If you're specially defensive, you have 0 ability to switch into physical threats because they'll just switch out, and you took heavy, heavy damage.
(edit: mehhhhh even then +0 Shadow Ball is more like a 3HKO at full health so you probably can get off with just taunting every three turns.)
My point was not about how physically defensive sableye is better. Of course specially defensive variant offers better overall bulk after the Will-o-wisp. I was talking about how it's hard to switch Sableye into things, and that point still stands. If you're specially defensive, you have 0 ability to switch into physical threats because they'll just switch out, and you took heavy, heavy damage.
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