np: RU Stage 10 - Deja Vu [See posts 47 and 48 for votes!]

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Oglemi

Oglemi

Zoltraak
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Little late on this I suppose lol~

Anyway, Gothitelle was banned in UU, and as such RU is back to where we were over a month ago. Nidoqueen and Moltres still seem to be the big shots in the tier and offense is still the typical team style to run with.

Let's cook up some ways to break down offense, if it's possible. Are any of Nidoqueen's and Moltres's counters viable enough to make a cohesive defensive team? Some of Nidoqueen's counters include Lickilicky and Misdreavus. Is resorting to them necessarily a bad thing?

In other news, you guys should check out the new RU Hub. DittoCrow, Jellicent, SilentVerse, mingot, and Great Sage have been putting a shit ton of time into getting that up and running and the results are spectacular thus far. Big ups to Bummer, Mos_Quixote, and RitterCat for making us some awesome art!

Finally, our Round 2 of the points system is up and running. Details on participation and how the points are rewarded can be read about here. You can even keep track of the points awarded thus far on our new hub by following this link here.

There's a ton going on in the forum right this minute so get involved and get some points!

Be sure to be thinking about some potential suspects for this round too. Word on the grapevine is that Sceptile is suspect worthy :0 Something to think about.

EDIT: <Honko> how about be sure to enjoy the awesome tier and only think about potential suspects if the meta sucks

I don't have a set time for when this round will end right now, but when we figure that out you'll know. Let's hope the tier shifts this next round don't shake up RU too much, or maybe we do want them to ??

And here's the song 9.9

[youtube]RQ9BWndKEgs[/youtube]
 
Well, gothi came and went. Hopefully people will start wandering into the big scary world of stall again. But that brings us to the problem of nidoqueen, moltres, and kabutops. These are making life completely miserable for stall. Kabu will ALWAYS spin if its player doesn't mess up and neither nido or moltres have counters with reliable recovery. Bulky offense seems like the way to go as things stand, though I've been having very good success with heavy offense, especially with things like absol and tauros (honestly, two of the best physical sweepers in RU, certainly the best from NU) around to make a mess.

Yeah, tier shifts coming up soon, I guess we'll probably lose cofagrigus who seems to be more popular now in UU where the "fighting type period" has recently started and has been recently stopped in RU where moltres and nido are tops dogs. We will get absol moving up, I think, and people will start realising how much power that thing packs.

So, yeah, stall is still very difficult to pull off, but on the offensive side of things, things seem very balanced.
 
If we lose Cofagrigus, then Hitmonlee will probably see a spike in usage as it is an almost perfect Spiritomb counter - and with Cofag gone, Spiritomb will be the only top-flight ghost around. I know, I know. You're thinking "what good is a Fighting type against a Ghost type? The answer: Foresight, which not only lets Hitmonlee spin when Spiritomb is in but also give Spiritomb its sole weakness: Foresight-assisted Fighting. It's much harder for other spinners to do anything about Tomb.
 
With Gothi gone, perhaps we'll see a rise in defensive Spikers since they all got screwed over by Gothi the moment they came in. No doubt that Nidoqueen and Moltres makes life hell for stall since the best answers to them lack recovery methods (outside of RestTalk) so it'll be interesting to see if the new tier shifts bring us anything better defensively to handle them. The main problem with defensive teams right now is the fact that there's really only one solid answer to Moltres at the moment for them, that being Lanturn. Sadly, most of the common answers to Nidoqueen (Lickilicky, Uxie, and Misdreavus) either don't have reliable recovery (Uxie and Misdreavus) or simply can't keep Moltres at bay (Lickilicky and Misdreavus) Add to that the general lack of physically defensive Pokemon that have good type synergy with these Pokemon and it makes life difficult for stall. Possible, yes, but much more difficult than it is for offensive teams.
 
Hm. I don't think I'm happy with Nidoqueen in the tier. She's a lot slower than Moltres and yet still seems harder to counter/play around, and that's just weird as hell.

I realize that Moltres is a huge threat with hardly any real counters just as much as 'Queen. But of course it has to be mentioned that it gets heavily neutered by Stealth Rock + Life Orb recoil, Paralysis and Toxic, while Nidoqueen resists SR, is freaking IMMUNE to Thunderwave and poison status, and has Life Orb recoil negated by Sheer Force to top it all off.

Sure you could always predict Nidoqueen's move and switch in something faster that resists, and then get rid of her with a strong ground or water attack (if she for some reason decides to stick around). But we all know that predicting in Pokémon is just another word for guessing and if you guess wrong there goes your answer to Nidoqueen.

I'm not saying smogon MUST MUST MUST get rid of Nidoqueen in RU. I'd love to see a couple Pokémon that counter her 100% of the time and I'd be willing to change my mind. But right now, I don't like it.
 
Without Gothitelle, RU is definitely more fun to play, as you don't have to worry about having your walls trapped. I think that RU is balanced again, but not the kind of balance where everything is viable. Because of the offensive nature of the metagame, Pokemon who were previously some of the best, such as Aggron and Omastar, have more trouble succeeding. There is too much offensive pressure for these Pokemon to be able to come in safely a lot of the time, or set up in Omastar's case. It is also way too hard to come up with very different defensive teams; they end up looking very similar whereas many defensive Pokemon like Slowking were useful on stall teams back in the day. Now, because Slowking gets 2HKOed by Moltres's Hurricane and can't counter Entei anymore if it removes Defense EVs, Slowking is outclassed by Lanturn for its role. Not saying that Slowking is bad now, it's defensive set has just become less useful because it is 2HKOed by things like Moltres and Nidoqueen; stuff like Specs Slowking is still awesome. Stall is just so limited these days, it gets boring to play as there isn't much room for creativity.

Misdreavus is a horrible Nidoqueen check, by the way. It takes 39.81 - 46.91% from Fire Blast and 31.79 - 37.65% from Ice Beam. When its only recovery option is Pain Split, and when Shadow Ball barely 4HKOes, Misdreavus is a really shaky check. Furthermore, a spinblocker should stay as healthy as possible, and using it to check Nidoqueen will result in Misdreavus losing over half of its HP or even dying if weakened. Half of Nidoqueen's checks aren't really viable, so seeing Uxie and its other 3 best checks (or whatever # it is) on every team is making the metagame kind of stale, if you know what I mean. Moltres also forces defensive teams to use Lanturn or something, which is kinda annoying. I just feel that RU is kinda stale and getting boring because it's 95% offensive with the same Pokemon. I think it'll pick up again, though, since people are discovering stuff like Swellow and tier shifts are happening soon! That's just my 2 cents. /end complain :p

Sceptile should definitely not be suspected imo lol. It's been in RU since... forever? Well it was around when I started playing in December, and it was arguably even more of a beast back then when stuff like Escavalier wasn't around. Both the physical and special sets have multiple checks and counters, and most teams generally have a check without even meaning to. I feel like the other Senate members feel the same way, that it's not broken, so suspecting it won't really accomplish anything :3 On to other stuffs

Well I hope the tier shifts give us something more than Stoutland... I don't see him doing anything in RU. He'll be a fun mon to use on sand teams though lol. Losing Cofagrigus would suck since he plays a huge role on a lot of different types of teams, and has always been a good mon in general. Though I really don't think losing him is going to make Foresight Hitmonlee any good... lol. Waste of a moveslot on a mon with 4mss.

Anyways check out the hub and get some points!
 
It's really not that hard to get past Nidoqueen - uninvested bulk and mediocre Speed makes it easy to revenge-kill. Nidoqueen just wears down pretty fast. I find Moltres a lot more threatening thanks to its generally good bulk allowing it to switch into many moves while having access to Roost to keep itself healthy.

I've faced a LO Aerodactyl - it's a beast. It does ~90% to Nidoqueen with LO EQ, so any residual damage would put Nidoqueen to KO range. Unlike Archeops, it's not useless <50% and its speed tier is pimpin, allowing it to even check Sceptile with ease. Stone Edge & EQ is a given; the last 2 slots can be filled by any combination of these moves - Fire Blast, Aqua Tail, Roost, Taunt, SR, Tailwind, Crunch, and Hone Claws :d
 
Yup, that was me using LOaero against Pocket :P but yeah, LO aerodactyl is honestly one of the best pokemon in the whole tier now. Literally the best offensive counter to moltres and can check queen with some prior damage (only fears t-bolt, the least likely move to be spammed tbh) and still is able to revenge kill things like sceptile, taurous, and more and hit hard thanks to its solid attack and great coverage. Stop using focus sash people, it's terrible.

Other amazing pokemon around now that seriously need more usage are escavalier, absol, and medicham. Honestly, they perform so well now in a tier that's shifted quite a lot to the special side of the spectrum, just running mono-physical nowadays can get you far on its own tbh.
 
Yeah, I'm not quite sure I like Nidoqueen in the tier so far either. Even though I'm a relatively new RU player I feel like it can come in and threaten everything that is slower than it out, which leads to really unpleasant prediction games. Full-stall feels almost neutered (although I am an offensively oriented player) due to Nidoqueen and it is easily the scariest Pokemon in the tier when it comes in on anything slower than it. Even if you have a check like LO Aero, it can't even really switch-in with impunity. Nido wears down quickly and has mediocre speed, but I feel like it makes this tier more offensively oriented.

I'd love to see which Pokemon I haven't thought of though ^_^ but I don't like Nido here either.
 
Im just going to post and say that i think Swellow is an amazing pokemon in this metagame, with this Offensive metagame such a fast and powerful pokemon can come in handy as both a revenge killer, and a threatening sweeper. Sure there are quite a few pokemon in the tier that can wall it (Aggron, Steelix, Rhydon, and Klinklang, among other things). But with the proper team support they can easily be worked around, if you pair Swellow with a pokemon such as omastar or smeargle that can set multiple layers of hazards, and a pokemon or two to help Swellow break through its counters just in case your hazard setter fails, and optionally rapid spin, your good to go! Swellow can OHKO the majority of the top threats after a guts boost, for example, it cleanly OHKOs Nidoqueen after Stealth Rock, pretty nice. As mentioned before, Swellow's speed tier is excellent in this metagame, it outruns the majority of the relevant tier, even beating out sceptile in speed! I dont know if its an accurate comparison, but i think Swellow could be compared to Sharpedo from a few rounds ago, its not as scary early game, but set up some hazards, eliminate priority, and weaken its checks, and its basically gg from there. I love this little bird, and i recommend you use it too! Give it the proper support and it wont disappoint! (thankfully any old team with spikes can probably support Swellow.

About Nidoqueen, im not having much of a problem with it as of late, im running offense ofc, but Nidoqueen has quite a few checks to stop it from completely destroying a decent balanced team in my opinion. Uxie is a great check to Nidoqueen, and probably the best counter we have in the tier, other things like clefable, mesprit, and Gallade are also good checks to the (what the fuck is nidoqueen supposed to be again?.) We also have some lesser used options that slow it down such as misdreavus, while not a full stop, the ghost can take several hits from nidoqueen and burn it in return. Also, as pocket said, anything with a base speed above 76 with a good, Neutral STAB attack can revenge kill Nidoqueen. I run Gallade mainly for its sheer power and the fact that it can stop Nidoqueen in a pinch, but ive found i dont need it to stop nidoqueen quite often, Entei, Swellow, and Kabutops can also stop her reign of terror in a pinch.

Looking at possible tier shifts, Cofagrigus is moving up for sure, and for good reason, that thing is amazing in UU, and in return, we might be lucky enough to recieve Bisharp and Houndoom, they arent especially close to the dropping range, but they both have been in that spot for a while, personally i think bisharp would be pretty cool, its basically Absol 2.0 with that steel typing!
 
Lately, I've finally decided to try out Nidoqueen myself instead of just preparing for it, and while she is really good, I never really find her single-handedly winning me games. I mean, she's a pretty good wallbreaker, but without paralysis support, she won't get past offensive teams any time soon. Uxie is really good as a check on Nidoqueen and if you have Uxie with something like Lanturn (who forces Nidoqueen to use Earth Power for the possible OHKO) then it's really easy to get Uxie in while preserving it for every encounter.

Now, I have been using Feraligatr quite a bit this round and it's been a lot of fun to use. It tears everything (well, almost) with an SD set and you even get priority in Aqua Jet. I've won a few battles just by preserving Feraligatr and giving up on a sweep due to some Grass type coming in on me, but I still end up having a Torrent LO Aqua Jet left for emergencies. Great dual purpose sweeper and I don't see him enough on the ladder tbh. DD is nice, but I love having that priority in case something comes in to stop my sweep and I can't setup again.

Also, going to agree with Molk that Swellow is really good. I haven't used it myself, but a team without a Rock or Steel type is pretty much going to have to sac something when it comes in. Most Scarfers can't take a switch-in and the only offensive threat that outspeeds Swellow and can actually live a hit is Aerodactyl. Tho, Swellow beats it with SR up should the bird have Quick Attack to use after Facade / Brave Bird. The support Swellow requires is well worth the late-game sweeps it easily pulls off if its teammates do their jobs even decently well.
 
Dragon Dance is better than Swords Dance when it comes to Feraligatr. I haven't been using it, but I've come up against it and when it Dragon Dances, half the time it's GG for me unless Amoonguss can take the hit. Remember that there is no difference between a 1HKO and a 0.5HKO, and that Ferali already has a good Attack stat. These two combined make the extra boost to 2x almost irrelevant. Speed, however, is the most important single stat there is. DD Feraligatr is like a Water-type version of Acrobatics Unburden Sceptile, which has single-handedly won me games rather often.
 
DD gets stopped pretty easily by common Scarfers in the tier. Rotom-C, Rotom, Manectric, and even Galvantula (not as common as the other 3) stop DD Gatr in its tracks. However, outside of Rotom-C, they can't take +2 Aqua Jet after SR. DD can get through Grass types like Sceptile and Lilligant, but you should honestly be running a check or counter to them anyway (especially Sceptile) so I rarely find the lack of Ice Punch (and Speed) to be a major issue. I just find that having that Aqua Jet in reserve just in case something gets out of hand is amazing. Even if you can't find the time to setup and sweep, SD Gatr still has utility on your team since it can finish off the likes of Nidoqueen, Entei, and Moltres, 3 very dangerous threats in the tier, without a second thought. Get rid of Grass types, and just about nothing is going to stop SD Gatr from sweeping since it has +2 Aqua Jet to finish faster attackers, including Scarfers.
 
The one thing I want to know is why use Feraligatr over Kabutops? The latter has much better offensive stats (Kabutops's 115 Atk / 80 Spd vs Feraligatr's 105 Atk / 78 Spd). What really stands out, though, is Kabutop's STAB Stone Edge, which provides Kabutops with a powerful wall-breaking tool. Feraligatr must rely on 100 BP moves to get around bulky Water, Grass, and Druddigon. Between Kabutop's higher Atk and much more powerful auxillary moves, it's hard to justify using Feraligatr over Kabutops.

The only main advantage I see for the croc is its pure Water-typing which arguably provides it superior overall bulk than Kabutops. It does give it an upperhand when facing mons like Poliwrath. However, Kabutop's quad resist to fire, flying resist, and normal resist certainly comes in handy, providing it some easy set-up opportunities. Feraligatr also has Torrent to be dishing stronger hits at low health, but Kabutop's dishes hard hits from the get-go.

Feraligatr reminds me of Klinklang. It just lacks the coverage and immediate power to really dominate RU like Kabutops, Moltres, Sceptile & co can.
 
Stone Edge has limited use outside of usage against Pokemon who are already weak to Water. Looking at the types Rock is SE against, you get Fire (Water weak), Flying (Ice Punch weak, P.S. Why not Ice Punch/Aqua Jet/Waterfall/SD or DD?) Ice (which as a defensive typing is not that common in RU, barring Cryogonal which has such a bad Physical Defence stat that a boosted or evne unboosted STAB Waterfall can OHKO it), and Bug (again, weak to Ice, and who on earth keeps Gatr or Kabu in on Galvantula anyway?!)

Anyway, yes, Kabutops is much more frail than Feraligatr, so Gatr can switch in on, say, Entei without leaving it open to a KO on the second hit, unlike Kabutops. (Even Flare Blitz dents Kabutops, and bear in mind that there's probably SR). This makes it much more likely that your opponent will switch out the offending Fire or Rock type (with the notable exception of Moltres, unless SR and Aqua Jet are in play), giving a free turn for Gatr to Swords Dance or Dragon Dance.

So, in short, Feraligatr > Kabutops.
 
^

1st When was bug ever weak to ice?

2nd Kabutop probably tanks flare blitz better then Feraligatr have a quad resistence to fire being a water/rock type but it still have to worry about the predicted Hidden Power Grass from Entei. If you're talking about general bulk then yes Feraligatr has better bulk and typing to take hits.

As for Feraligatr > Kabutops, I say it's a toss up, depends what you want, but once Sheer Force Feraligatr is out I'd say Feraligatr > Kabutops. I can't wait for sheer force boosted waterfall, Ice punch and Crunch.
 
When it comes to a solid swords dancer, I've never felt any inclination to use feraligatr over kabutops. Kabutops gets weak armour, secondary STAB, and better offensive stats while also being able to spin.

Where Gatr's true magic lies is dragon dance IMO. While some might argue that gatr is inferior to crawdaunt, I find the croc has a very good niche over crawdaunt, not only with better speed, but also with existent bulk. When sheer force is released, I think DDgatr will be a pretty big player in the metagame.
 
lol once Sheer Force Gator is released it definitely wont be staying in RU (or maybe even UU).

I don't think you understand the purpose of Stone Edge, Hunt. It's not meant to hit bugs and ice for super-effective damage. It's meant to hit Water-, Grass-, and Dragon- types that resist Waterfall for hard damage. Feraligatr's coverage move is usually Earthquake / Return, a 100-2 BP move. Compare that to Kabutop's 150 Stone Edge. Big power difference.

Speaking of Molk's Swellow, I think I saw your team in action! Swellow and hyper offensive SD Gallade formed a lethal pair :d
 
Yeh.. Gart and Kabutops are a bit different, with the SD version both are very similar but Kabutops has Weak Armor and Rapid Spin, also is a better sweeper in Rain teams with Swift Swim. In the other hand, Feraligart has more bulk and torrent is awesome when you are using Life Orb around Waterfall + Acua Jet.

DD Gart will be cool, like DD Crawdaunt but more bulky and fast. Poliwrath, Ferroseed, Qwiflish and Tangrowth looks solid checks!

p.s: i like Beyonce, Oglemi ^.^
 
If I'm using Kabutops as a SD Sweeper, Waterfall would most certainly replace Rapid Spin. Otherwise Feraligatr is superior to RS Kabutops, no doubt about that.
 
Ice Punch is superior to Stone Edge if the latter's purpose is to hit Water, Grass and Dragon, as two of those three are weak to Ice and the third, well, what is there Water-wise? Kabutops, who's frail enough to have problems with boosted Waterfall. Slowking, who is a special wall, is weak to Crunch, and is setup fodder. Lanturn, who you shouldn't be keeping Gatr in on without boosts. Aaand... that's about it, apart from opposing Gatr.

P.S. I didn't say that Gatr is better at taking flare blitzes than Kabu is. I was just using it as an example of Kabu's frailty - a 4x resist move being about a 3HKO. Kabutops also can be 2HKOd with Stone Edge, even without HP Grass. (Speaking of which, is it a better idea to run said move on Entei than to go with Toxic or Flame Charge?)
 
If I'm going to ever use kabutops as a SD sweeper outside of rapid spin it will always be in the rain otherwise I think feraligatr completely outclasses it. IMO
 
Kabutops is certainly best used in a Rain team no doubt, but even Weak Armor SD Kabutops outclasses Feraligatr for the reasons outlined previously.
 
HuntSaboteur said:
When it comes to rain teams, yes, Kabutops > Gatr, but Ludicolo > both.
Click to expand...


Ludicolo's playstyle isnt even remotely similar to Kabutops or Gatr's. Ludicolo is a special sweeper in the rain with a secondary grass typing, that absolutely needs rain to sweep, Kabutops and Gatr are physical sweepers that do very well under rain, but can function outside of the rain as well. I cant see where you would draw the similarlity between two pokemon that play so differently...
 
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