I've had enough of this crap
Texas,Cress does not centrelize the RU meta,It JUST DROPPED give time for the meta to adapt,Also carry a strong Dark or Ghost move and you win,Since cress cant boost on the physical side,Just carry absol or CB Tomb or even Skuntank and you win not kidding,You dont need to carry a counter + check,And it does not wall 90% of the tier lol even glace can 2HKO it.And with hail neutering its recovery methods its forced to resttalk or dont use recovery wich is very bad for it.It is a S rank threat that just dropped of course its gonna be good,Nidoqueen isnt broken to me its just a very good pokemon,And this is coming from a guy who almost NEVER prepairs for nido.I dont think hail is broken,For Cress anf Nido I think we just want RU to have a real suspect too much but I understand hail though.
Pokemon and teams specific goal requires them to beat Cresselia, usually by putting two or more Pokemon whose purpose is largely, at least in part, to defeat Cresselia. If they don't, they lose. This is part of overcentralization.
Secondly, learn your facts. Cresselia did not just drop, it has officially been in the tier since November 24th and it has been allowed on the ladder since October 20th. This is ample time for the metagame to adapt.
It is true that Glaceon can 2HKO Cress. However, it needs Rocks up to accomplish this feat. Furthermore,
Glaceon is a 130 base Special Attack Pokemon wearing Choice SPecs using a STABed 120 Base Power Attack. If it couldn't 2HKO just about anything that would be pretty pathetic. Cherrypicking one of the strongest attackers in the tier using its most powerful set and BARELY 2HKOing does not support your case.
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs 252 HP/116 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 43.92% - 51.58%
2-3 hits to KO
What can cress do back?And no it didnt centrelize the meta it made it adapt,look at the usage stats sure HO SPAM isnt as usable but it dosent shift to the meta to its weaknesses I play RU evrey day and I dont really see over centrelization js.And Ive faced cress a lot on the ladder and none of them seem to be the overly dominate forces that you talk about,Remember when evrey one kept saying "Oh rough skin chomp is gonna still be broken!" And then it wasent?Much more of over reaction than actualy beeing broken.Just give the meta time to adapt,Also cress is very healthy for the meta because remember that last boring only HO Meta?Yeah cress is the sole reason that meta dosent exist completely anymore.
Assuming you are talking about Cress's counters and what it can do, let's look at Cresselia's common counters. Drapion, Escavalier, Spiritomb, Durant, Mandibuzz and Crawdaunt are the only Cresselia counters that received above 60th, or above 2.8% usage in the month of November. For the sake of argument we'll include weaker checks such as Scolipede, Scyther, and your two choices Skuntank and Sneasel. For the record, the latter two are never used, as evidenced by:
| 154 | Skuntank | 168 | 0.272% | 137 | 0.270% |
| 146 | Sneasel | 193 | 0.313% | 153 | 0.301% |
Now let's assume that Cresselia has obtained a position against something it forces out, and the above Pokemon must now switch in. Cresselia has access to Calm Mind, Psychic, Thunder Wave, Moon light and Hidden Power Fire; as both of these movesets are common enough to be likely possibilities. Let us also assume that Cresselia has Poliwrath as a teammate, as almost every Cress team should carry them as a combo. Stealth Rock is assumed to be up for both sides, and 1 Spikes layer may or may not be up for Cresselia team. These are common battle conditions when using Cress.
Drapion: If early game, or if its counters are still alive such as now, Cresselia will Thunder Wave on the switch. Congrats, you now have a paralyzed and completely useless Drapion on your hands. If running HP Fire, Cresslia, does 18-21% and can thus slowly wear down Drapion. Furthermore, the only Drapion that can possibly 2HKO Cresselia is Choice Band Drapion which conveniently is lacks recovery. Even worse is the fact that Drapion cannot beat Poliwrath, who will switch in for free, shuffle your team and rack of entry hazard damage, including on your Drapion who will die fairly quickly considering its lack of recovery. Therefore, as a whole,
Drapion cannot beat Cresselia.
252 Atk Choice Band Drapion Crunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Cresselia (+Def) : 43.92% - 52.03%
0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Drapion: 18.15% - 21.35%
Escavalier: Escavalier is a stronger check to Cresselia, as it does not care much about paralysis, and can threaten to OHKO Cresselia outright with Megahorn. However, it falls into the same boat as Drapion in that it cannot beat Poliwrath, and is susceptible to entry hazards. It likewise will be worn down and defeated. Should Cresselia carry HP Fire:
Against Choice Band Escava: 0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Escavalier: 45.35% - 53.49%, Escavalier is always 2HKOd after Rocks
Against Specially Defensive Escavalier: 0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Escavalier: 36.05% - 43.02%; always 3HKOd
As a result, Escavalier cannot beat Cresselia easily, and Cresselia is capable of defeating Escava. There is one set upon which Escavalier can commit itself to a pure Cresselia counter, Specially Defensive RestTalk Escava which will force Cresselia out, but this runs into the same problem of not being able to beat Poliwrath, being forced out and failing to heal. Therefore,
Escavalier must overcentralize to guarantee a win against Cresselia, but cannot win over the course of a match.
Spiritomb: Spiritomb I maintain is the only true Cresselia counter. Not because of its Choice Band or Blackglasses sets, because these are susceptible to entry hazards and status, especially Scald burns, but because of its Calm Mind RestTalk set which will always defeat Cresselia, albeit requiring a Critical hit after Calm Minds. It also cannot be phazed by Poliwrath and will defeat that part of the core. Therefore, CroSpiritomb is a true counter to Cresselia, but other variants are not.
0 SpAtk Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs 252 HP/116 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 24.32% - 29.05% (+6 Critical OHKO)
Mandibuzz: This will beat Cresselia one-on-one between Taunt and Whirlwind. That said Mandibuzz is universally regarded to be terrible, particularly with the advent of Hail.
Mandibuzz is a Cresselia counter should it avoid Toxic, but is terrible outside of that purpose.
Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt is paralysis susceptible, hazard susceptible and is completely countered by Poliwrath.
Crawdaunt is a terrible Cresselia counter.
Durant: See Crawdaunt, except Durant can do a fair amount to Poliwrath before being KOd/phazed.
Durant is a mediocre/average Cresselia counter.
Scolipede/Scyther: If either gets paralyzed they are now screwed. Both are weak to Stealth Rocks, Scyther devastatingly so. Some damage calcs:
0 SpAtk Cresselia Psychic vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Scolipede: 79.31% - 94.25%
2 hits to KO
If Cresslia Thunder Waves or Psychics on the switch, Scolipede dies.
0 SpAtk Cresselia Psychic vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Scyther: 33.1% - 38.79%
3-4 hits to KO
Cresselia will 2HKO Scyther, leading to a similar situation as above. In the worst case scenario Scyther fails to OHKO Cress after one round of Leftovers as shown by:
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther (+Atk) Bug Bite vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 73.65% - 87.16%
Therefore, Scyther and Scolipede are very poor Cresselia counters/checks.
And now we reach your two favourites, Sneasel and Skuntank. Ignoring the fact they have a combined
0.6% usage in RU, both of them are terrible choices to take on Cress.
- Both are completely countered by Poliwrath. Have fun with that one!
- Sneasel is crippled by Thunder Wave and destroyed by Hidden Power Fire
0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Sneasel: 40.64% - 47.81%
- Skuntank is impeded by Thunder Wave and worn down by Hidden Power Fire
0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Skuntank: 14.63% - 17.32%
- Both are weak to entry hazards, Sneasel hilariously so
Sneasel takes 25-50% from entry hazards guaranteeing a 2HKO. Skuntank takes 12.5-27.5% from entry hazards, 12-25 being common, meaning that after a few switch ins it can no longer beat Cress
- Neither of their Pursuits are strong enough to bother Cress
Skuntank vs a switching Cress: 252 Atk Choice Band Skuntank (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 58.78% - 69.59%
Vs a Cress that stays in: 29.39-34.79
Sneasel vs a switching Cress: 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 59.46% - 70.27%
Vs a Cress that stays in: 29.73-35.13
Cress dgaf about either of the Pursuits, not to mention the numerous Pokemon it can switch in n and heal should it get tagged with a strong attack.
Skuntank is therefore a mediocre Cress counter, and Sneasel is a horrible one.
In regards to your mention of playing RU every day, I took the liberty of looking you up on Pokemon Showdown.
http://imgur.com/Oxemd
You seem to play a lot, but you sure don't do very well. This leads me to question the validity of statements you make regarding a Pokemon's effectiveness.
Have you even looked at your options? Sneasel is anti meta as fuck, Skuntanks 4 Dark move trapper set(Punishment/Crunch/Sucker Punch/ Pursuit) completely shits on it, etc. Also it has 4 MSS and HP MSS It is too dependant on hidden power to take out counters as if you use fighting you get get smashed by pinsir and exca and fire gets raped by SD Absol as it can take one HP Fire and swords dance and sucker punch or pursuit/night slash it(the set is SD/Sucker Punch/Night slash or pursuit/superpower/) . And it cant pack psyshock and psychic and ice beam and thunder wave and hidden power and moonlight AND Calm Mind and weather for weather teams, It relies on having one move way too much so I usualy run subtank/Trappertank and SubSD Pinsir and I dont worrie about it and I personaly think im overpacking lol. Cress is a S rank poke, of course its going to be damn good, but I think your not looking at your options enough and your under estimating cresses counters and flaws, this is very much comparable to Pro Drilbur/Murkrow ban people in LC.
I've addressed most of this already, so I'll simply state that Absol is very prone to getting paralyzed by Cresselia, is susceptible to entry hazards, and it utterly destroyed by Poliwrath's Circle Throw. Pinsir is a rarely seen Pokemon, can lose to to Poliwrath and is significantly hazard weak. Assuming the best case scenario for you, where Cress switches out while you Sub and Poliwrath breas your Sub while you SD:
252 +2 Atk Life Orb Pinsir Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Poliwrath (+Def) : 64.06% - 75.26%
Pinsir has now taken 60% damage from SR, LO and Sub, POliwrath responds with either:
0 SpAtk Poliwrath Scald vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Pinsir: 32.1% - 38.01%
3-4 hits to KO
Meaning you die as of your next attack without beating Cress or:
0 Atk Poliwrath Circle Throw vs 0 HP/0 Def Pinsir: 10.33% - 12.18%
9-10 hits to KO
Meaning you die the next time you switch in and attack once, this time without your boosts, and also without beating Cress. Assuming you've switched in against Cress:
252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir X-Scissor vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 57.43% - 67.57%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
Meaning Cress finishes you off if you attack or you kill yourself by attacking, possibly as it Moonlights the damage away.
EDIT: Actually after the Close Combat Pinsir is at -1/-1 defenses meaning that whatever Pinsir gets hit with, it's dead, without touching Cress
Some final points: Cress being an S rank Pokemon does mean its amazing, Cress commands S rank BECAUSE its amazing. LC and RU are nothing alike. Literally nothing. Do not use them as a comparison.
-removed for not addressing cress-
Im going to respond to Scrafty's part of Skuntank and Sneasel: Lol you are one of those people who say if a poke isnt RU or top NU its not viable in RU?That is simply not true you have no argument to support it also, Skun and Sneasel are VERY viable in RU try them and you will see.
I have no designs as to whether these Pokemon are viable or not. Skuntank can be argued for being outclassed by Drapion but may be usable, Sneasel I am actually encouraged has a niche in RU.
What is far more relevant is that both suck at beating Cress.
Actualy Punsihment from both Sneasel and Skuntank with a Choice Band Strait up OHKOs CM Cress at +1.And w/o CM , Cress simply isnt as threatning and these mons arent "weak as fuck" and most of them can use sub to wall the dump out of cress. Also Cresses offensive presance is PATHETIC UNBOOSTED and running CM means the risk of being assulted with punsihment and switching means losing all your bossts.
The first statement has been proven untrue: 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Punishment vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 67.57% - 79.73% this being vs +1/+1 Cresselia.
You also claim that Cresselia can't run all its moves, but then contradict yourself by switching between Choice Band Sneasel and Sub Sneasel, as well as 4 dark move Skuntank and Sub Skuntank among others. This is inherently flawed reasoning I hope you see.
Regarding this line:
risk of being assulted with punsihment and switching means losing all your bossts.
What does Cresselia care if it has to switch and lose its boosts? It can set up against 90% of the tier without fail anyway. Furthermore, why is Cresselia setting up if its checks/counters aren't gone/weakened in the first place?
I am done with this guy,"They probaly wont be running pursuit" that just proves you have zero knowlage on these pokes and you have never faced/used them vs cress , please stop theory monning just my plead as it will make it way easier to have a intellegent conversation with you, no offense, I just hate theorymonning about things in the meta that are usable. Guess what always happens the cress user sets up +6/+6 agianst me by a 'lure mon and then they think they got the game,then BOOM SNEASEL ACTION and they are dead meybe if people didnt leave it in on sneasel I wouldent be so convinced.(and btw SD lum sneasel totaly beats "your" cress w/ punishment wich is one of the most commen sneasel sets.)
Your arguments are entirely based on circumstantial evidence from playing against poor players. Your terrible ladder rating supports the concept that the majority of your battles have been against the dregs of the ladder.
Cress is total dead weight offensivly without calm mind and your set says basicly "Hey subset up sweepers/ground type set up sweepers set up on me!" Seriously you seem like you havent looked at your options its like saying Murkrow and Drilbur are invincable in LC.another part is that cres HATES 4MSS :W/o CM it fails to do anything back to the things its supposidly "100% walling" and without t-wave it cant really threaten out other walls etc. Also a LOT of other CMers beat it such as Murkrow,Duosion,Missy, and preety much evrey CMer with a recovery move that out stall (probaly hail) moonlight.
Cresselia with Calm Mind beats SubSetup mons, Cresselia without Calm Mind isn't designed to. Once again, you have cherrypicked minute details to provide a potentially favourable situation without looking at the entire picture of Cress beating these Pokemon the majority of the time. For instance, you claim that SubSetup automatically wins against Cress. Pray tell, what coverage moves are we now giving up?
If you used SubSD Crawdaunt you autolose to Poliwrath. Gallade? Autolose to Spiritomb. Pinsir? Loses to Poliwrath as previously shown. Feraligatr? Loses to Poliwrath. Kabutops? Poliwrath. Drapion? Poliwrath. Escavalier? Aside from the poor concept of the set, Poliwrath. Bouffalant? Possibly the only good example of this, Cresselia's common teammates do not automatically beat it.
Consulting the usage stats, those are the only Pokemon who run SubSD. Almost all of them will lose.
Once again you refer to flawed arguments and conflicting logic. RU IS NOT LC! They are not comparable! Cresselia doesn't hate 4MSS, each of its sets is designed to fulfill its own purpose on top of walling 90% of the tier! One is designed to beat its counters. Another is designed to sweep! The most common provides para support for its teammates and is capable of sweeping! Not every Cress set is designed to sweep! But every Cress set walls 90% of the tier whether its designed to sweep or not.
Finally, let's look at these CM users.
Murkow: | 163 | Murkrow | 153 | 0.248% | 121 | 0.238% |
Calm Mind 5.882%
Calm Mind Murkow was used in exactly 9 battles in the month of November. I'm not going to comment further.
Misdreavus: I grant that this one saw a little bit of usage, approximately 0.36% overall. Its most common set however is defensive, and it will lose to any normal type special wall Cress is paired with.
Duosion: 252 +6 SpAtk Duosion Psychic vs 252 HP/112 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 42.57% - 50.23%
Duosion only ever wins against Cress if it gets a max damage roll crit.
0 +6 SpAtk Cresselia Psychic vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Duosion: 45.81% - 54.19%
Cress has a larger window. Essentially, Duosion ties with Cress but will lose most of the time 1v1.
To conclude this ridiculously long post: your arguments are bad, and you should feel bad. Your posts, aside from being grammatically incomprehensible are filled with fallacy, flawed logic, circumstance and conjecture. Your poor ladder record questions the validity of every statement you've made.
Please don't post again in regards to Cresselia without some logical reasoning to support your arguments.