Metagame NP: RU Stage 4 - The Abyss (Diggersby banned, see post #65)

[Flareblitzkreig]

ok hello everyone it's been a while since my last post but today i'd like to talk about a potentially broken pokemon that's residing in RU right now, thundurus.


(pillar men intensifies)
jokes aside, thundurus entered the tier post-dlc 2 in november along with a slew of previous-UUs and managed to reclaim it's spot as a decent offensive presence even among these behemoths. now that the tier has settled down, it can finally flex its muscles and really do some damage.

what makes thundurus so good?
thundurus is one of the best wallbreakers/sweepers currently due to a variety of tools. it has a great setup move in nasty plot, a good movepool consisting of moves such as focus blast, psychic,dark pulse, knock off, grass knot and so on along with a great speed tier of which allows it to outspeed a large portion of the metagame including pokemon like zarude, cobalion, and so on. heavy duty boots is a further buff which enables bringing it in much easier because it doesn't lose a quarter of its health everytime it switches in just because stealth rocks are up.

why is thundurus problematic?
the problem with thundurus is that it's not limited to one set alone and has multiple viable sets, each with a different purpose. the infamous nasty plot set will remain infamous for blowing through teams at will after a single nasty plot but that's not all there is to it.
knock off+ 3 attacks has established itself as a great alternative, knocking off the item from most mons that come in to check it and function as a great cleaner in endgames as well.
a possible 3rd alternative has also appeared which uses knock off + u-turn(not volt switch hear me out) + 2 attacks to function as a pivot by using u-turn to heavily dent zarude and not lose momentum vs ground types that would like to come in on an electric move.
(some people have tried using bulk up thundurus to use that 115 base attack but because the strategy is still in its infancy i will not comment on it, just saying that bulk up thundurus exists)

now all the traits i've listed just correspond with the features of a good offensive mon- strength, versatility and heavy duty boots. so you might ask, "blitz, why the hell are you rambling about this?" and my answer would be- its movepool.

it's no secret that thundurus has a great movepool but what makes it a problem is how it manages to beat most of its checks just by using a certain coverage move. for example, ground types such as Seismitoad fold to grass knot, steelix dies to a +2 focus blast and the specially defensive behemoth that is registeel takes 75-89% from focus blast after one nasty plot.
even among the various grass types that usually check electrics, no one is safe.
tier king zarude is OHKOed by focus blast after thundurus sets up nasty plot and is 2HKOed by U-turn,
dhelmise is a 2HKO from dark pulse if running colbur berry and is an OHKO if not,
offensive roserade is 2HKOed by thundurus before nasty plot and is an OHKO after nasty plot

while max specially defensive assault vest reuniclus can stomach any hit from nasty plot thundurus, knock off sets exploit it greatly by knocking off assault vest and opening up the game for its teammates.
of course, there are only 4 moveslots on a pokemon which means not all of these moves can be run, but they give thundurus a big advantage in the fact that it can pick what checks it and what doesn't.

thundurus also gets a variety of openings to enter the match as it can come in on pokemon like togekiss and bulky waters such as seismitoad, etc.
it's immunity to stealth rocks due to heavy duty boots further augments this by making switching in even easier.

however, i believe thundurus does not deserve to be quickbanned for the following reasons.
-it has middling bulk of 79/70/80 which, while not terrible, still means it is 2HKOed by many offensive pokemon that also dominate the meta.
-while 111 base speed is great, it leaves thundurus outsped by threats such as zygarde 10%,and raikou, the former of which can OHKO it with banded outrage.
- it is also outsped by scarfers who can revenge kill it even if they are unable to switch in to thundurus.
- lastly, even though it can bypass its checks using a coverage move, it can only accomodate up to 4 moves, leaving it in a state of 4 moveslot syndrome.

after all of this information has been laid out, i believe that thundurus, while not obviously broken, is problematic enough to warrant a suspect test in the near future and more discussion on its effect on the meta should occur.
thanks for reading and if you differ from my opinion, feel free to voice it!

CALCS

at +2

at +2
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 364-430 (139.4 - 164.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zarude: 528-622 (150.4 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Dark Pulse vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Colbur Berry Dhelmise: 186-219 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Dark Pulse vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Dhelmise: 372-438 (114.8 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Steelix: 532-626 (150.2 - 176.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

normal

normal
252 SpA Thundurus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 182-216 (69.7 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 428-508 (103.3 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zarude: 264-312 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus: 200-236 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO

defensive calcs

defensive calcs
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 328-387 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 177-208 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 172-204 (57.5 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 141-166 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
note: these are not all the relevant defensive calcs in relation to thundurus, they are only here to give one an idea of thundurus's bulk

(kek give likes now ty)

 

[Denial]

Drops

Incineroar moved from UU to RU

Magnezone moved from UU to RU

Steals

Reuniclus moved from NUBL to RU

Heracross moved from NUBL to RU

Slowbro-Galar moved from NUBL to RU

Milotic moved from NU to RU

Noivern moved from NU to RU

Porygon2 moved from NU to RU

Rises

Kyurem moved from RUBL to UU

Quagsire moved from PU to UU

Nothing crazy going on this time, which is great cause it means the tier is finally stabilizing. Kinda surprised to see we stole P2 but other than that everything looks normal.

Sample set for new drops

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: Dont Know yet
- Overheat
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot
- Toxic / Taunt


Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Steel Beam

Those are pretty much the sets im assuming will be the most popular, Overheat is great on Inci because it gives you a powerful Stab without losing HP with Flare Blitz, ands hits Cobalion and Steelix harder. Will probably be a very good Pokemon, annoys pretty much the entire tier with Knock Off while checking Chandelure and Zarude. Magnezone will be pretty annoying for teams that use Cobalion as their main defensive backbone, but it will be pretty much outclassed by the other electrics in everything else.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

So we got tier shifts again!

Quagsire moved from PU to UU
Incineroar moved from UU to RU
Magnezone moved from UU to RU

Losing quag is whatever, as it was just niche on stall teams, but the other two...

Tony the tiger returns to the lower tiers after a pretty decent run in OU and UU. having an intimidate mon not named arcanine seems pretty good, acting as a pivot with U turn and knocking off items like no other. Now, base 115 attack still looks pretty good, and access to SD means it can be a pretty decent breaker, given that its STAB alone hits most of the defensive options available in the tier. I just hope it doesn't rise back in 3 months if we get used to its presence, but that's outside the point.

If we once were known as the tier with a lot of fire types, now it seems we are the tier with a lot of electric types. Between this, raikou, xurk, thundy, arctozolt and toxtricity (and rotom mow, to a certain extent) we have plenty of options to choose from. So, what does magnezone bring to the table? It can technically trap steels, but most of the ones in the tier have ways to hit it back (via EQ or body press), so it will probably ran iron defense body press along with its stabs or sub so break for the team. I am interested to see how it manages to carve a niche in the meta

 

[gye5]

So we got tier shifts again!

Quagsire moved from PU to UU
Incineroar moved from UU to RU
Magnezone moved from UU to RU

Losing quag is whatever, as it was just niche on stall teams, but the other two...
View attachment 304531
Tony the tiger returns to the lower tiers after a pretty decent run in OU and UU. having an intimidate mon not named arcanine seems pretty good, acting as a pivot with U turn and knocking off items like no other. Now, base 115 attack still looks pretty good, and access to SD means it can be a pretty decent breaker, given that its STAB alone hits most of the defensive options available in the tier. I just hope it doesn't rise back in 3 months if we get used to its presence, but that's outside the point.

View attachment 304535
If we once were known as the tier with a lot of fire types, now it seems we are the tier with a lot of electric types. Between this, raikou, xurk, thundy, arctozolt and toxtricity (and rotom mow, to a certain extent) we have plenty of options to choose from. So, what does magnezone bring to the table? It can technically trap steels, but most of the ones in the tier have ways to hit it back (via EQ or body press), so it will probably ran iron defense body press along with its stabs or sub so break for the team. I am interested to see how it manages to carve a niche in the meta

Well most registeel dont run earquake so I think magnezone can abuse it and let pokemon like regidraco shine

 

[EonX]

This is a really great addition to the tier. It's the true Chandelure counter we've wanted for a while now, but it does so much more. Thanks to Intimidate, it's able to pivot in on the likes of Alolan Marowak, Zarude,, and Mimikyu. Not to mention the typing lets it take on most Psychics (including Indeedee and Reuniclus) while being able to generate momentum via Parting Shot / U-turn so it even fits well on faster-paced teams since it can build / maintain momentum effectively. Whatever it can't check directly, it still inhibits via Knock Off or via Intimidate pivoting making it easier for a teammate to handle if they aren't in prestine condition. It's also a HUGE Shiftry annoyance and while Sun teams weren't exactly popular, this might be their final death nail as Incin stops basically every good Chlorophyll sweeper and doesn't auto-drop to Weather Ball Zard. Overall, a fantastic addition and I can't wait to see some of the defensive / offensive cores that crop up with this thing. Also, don't sleep on SD. Worth noting, it's 136 Speed EVs to outspeed max Speed Adamant Alolan Marowak. I don't feel that's worth the loss in bulk, but it's an option I suppose.

So if this was any generation prior, I would've said no way this is balanced. However, as we've seen multiple times already, Crown Tundra has redefined what power creep truly means (seriously, Xurkitree has lasted 2 months and Scald Raikou isn't even considered broken by most) Magnezone has an interesting place as we're not short on good Electric types and team typically want their Steel-types to focus on defense first aside from SD Cobalion. I'm not sure what to think of this one really. On the one hand, Magnet Pull and a high Special Attack stat suggests it could trap Steels, but looking at RU Steel types and the loss of Hidden Power, what Steels does it actually trap? It can't ever switch into Cobalion safely, Steelix laughs at it, Registeel has BULK, Stakataka can slap Body Press on and call it a day, Metagross commonly runs EQ, and Doublade bypasses trapping via its sub Ghost typing. So that leaves us with Specs Analytic or AV Analytic. Specs actually looks pretty promising as a breaker, but then you remember that Toxtricity exists and does a better job at pushing through Ground types. So that leaves AV and it just seems too easy to chip away at for it to do a whole lot. Will Magnezone be bad? No, I doubt it. But between Toxtricity, Xurkitree, Thundurus, and Raikou, it has a ton of competition as an Electric type and it doesn't trap Steels nearly as well as you'd think at first glance as all of the common ones have ways to get around it or dissuade it from trying to come in to begin with.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Well most registeel dont run earquake so I think magnezone can abuse it and let pokemon like regidraco shine

It depends. Most of the registeels I have seen run body press, and even with full spdef investment, it 2hkos magnezone while not being 2hkoed back:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Def Registeel Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 146-172 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah, it potentially opens regidrago, but having a whole mon with an ability to just trap one mon doesn't sound that good. However, a sub iron defense body press could potentially be more useful for dealing with registeel while being treathening to a bigger variety of mons. We have to wait and see

 

[Pabloaram]

Also with magnet rise he can trap things like Metagross.. something like thunderbolt body press magnet rise iron defence set could work

 

[Expulso]

Also with magnet rise he can trap things like Metagross.. something like thunderbolt body press magnet rise iron defence set could work

This might be possible, but most Metagross run EQ. Magnet Rise can beat slower ones, though; it might be necessary for bulky/SR Metagross to start hitting 220 Speed to outspeed max neutral nature Magnezone, which is inconvenient.

I don't think Mag will be very good here. Specs Toxtricity is better than Specs Analytic Zone sets bc u can hit targets like Seis and Gastro much harder as well as being faster; as a trapper it fails to trap most steels, which run moves like EQ (Meta / some Lix) / CC (Coba) or Idef+BPress (Regi, some Lix) to beat it. I guess u can set up on Klefki, though...? but overall it's probably outclassed as an Electric and Steel and ineffective as a trapper.

 

[Pabloaram]

Really bad time to drop is this meta.. Poor Zonr

 

[gye5]

Really bad time to drop is this meta.. Poor Zonr

I suggest using body press plus iron def too really abuse toxic plus protect registeel and choice metagross

 

[Fusion Flare]

Hmm, yes, it would seem that on paper... Magnezone is unable to trap a good chunk of the steels...UNTIL JUST RECENTLY!


Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Magnet Rise

With this set that I TOTALLY didn't appropriate from Gen 5 OU, I have invented the optimal set for trapping the majority of steel types! Assuming you enter the battlefield relatively unscathed (hazards don't count) you will be immune to ground type attacks from the very beginning! This will allow you to pull off a Magnet Rise safely and painlessly without any sort of fuss from faster Metagross who had planned to Earthquake you into oblivion. From there, its just a simple brutalizing with powerful Thunderbolts, or if the situation calls for it, a devastating Body Press off of +2 defense! Coincidentally, it happens to also take on Pokémon such as Steelix, Registeel, and Klefki (side effects may include letting the keys get up 3 spikes freely, and potentially having to face off against another iron defense body press user you had assumed was only rocking the usual STABS/seismic toss)

So go out there! Seize the day with your hunter of metal! Your warrior against ironclad menaces! Until next post, my fellow Magnezone enthusiasts!

 

[Expulso]

yooo whats good i wanna highlight a few underrated SS RU picks that are currently in lower tiers than RU in case anyone wants to build with them and have some more fun in this tier

======

Specs Tox

Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Volt Switch
- Overdrive
- Snarl / Sludge Bomb

Choice Specs Toxtricity is incredibly good rn!! The most common ground is Seismitoad, spammed to deal with Slowbro-Galar and check plenty of other threats like Volcanion, Raikou, Suicune, Cobalion; the list goes on and on, seis is just a good general check to stuff. If it's your Ground type, Toxtricity absolutely obliterates it.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 376-442 (90.8 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It also blows away switchins like Steelix or Rhyperior, which come very close to being 2HKOd or are 2HKOd depending on their spread. This basically lets it secure a KO nearly every time it gets in. The only things taking 2 Boombursts are SpDef Steels like Registeel and Metagross, and this fact means that it's p easy to Volt Switch out of them and into something faster that can take advantage of them.

Zarude is an amazing partner that gives it multiple opportunities per battle, U-turning on its checks Togekiss, Crobat, and Weezing-Galar (along with the other birds, Noivern and Talonflame, to a lesser extent) to let Toxtricity secure a kill. You can see this in Lilburr's LTPL game from this week (link). Any U-turn partner that gets it in on a slower Pokemon, of which there are plenty, is excellent. Talonflame can U-turn on Seismitoad to bring in Toxtricity; it seems insane to switch in Tox on a Ground-type that doesn't have coverage for it, but then you realize that Boomburst just drops it somehow.

Tox also gets opportunities against Electric-types, Cobalion (whose STABs it resists), Fairy-types like Sylveon, ... you name it. Its sky-high immediate power also helps teams be secure against threats like CM Slowbro-Galar, since you can come in on a +1 Gbro and handily 2HKO. I genuinely believe that Tox is one of the best breakers in the tier and encourage everyone to try it. Shoutout to A floor Mat

======

NP Tales

Ninetales @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Scorching Sands / Psyshock

Seismitoad's recent rise in popularity in tour games means that Ninetales, a Fire-type with Grass coverage, is super underrated right now. Fire type switch-ins are limited to bulky waters like Suicune and Seismitoad; Fire-types like Volcanion, Chandelure, and Talonflame; and Dragon-types like Noivern and Dragalge. (Also, Diancie). Ninetales can beat almost all of these, dropping the Waters with Solar Beam and beating the Fire-types with either Scorching Sands (Volcanion takes abt 80-90% at +2, so u need a little chip) or, for Tflame, a +2 Fire Blast. Noivern also takes abt 65 from a +2 Fire Blast, and Tales' great special bulk means it doesn't take too much from its Draco.

It can NP on relatively passive mons like Sylveon and Registeel or by threatening out Seismitoad with a very telegraphed Solar Beam. Def worth giving a try imo, perhaps with Chlorophyll Shiftry as a partner; however, it's more than capable of putting in work if used on its own.

======

LO Smash Barbaracle

Barbaracle @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature / Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Liquidation
- Stone Edge
- Grass Knot / X-Scissor / Cross Chop

Like Toxtricity, Barbaracle can setup on the birds Zarude brings in and U-turns on, but does so by sweeping instead of wallbreaking. Pokemon like Crobat, non-Twave Togekiss, and max HP Noivern give it set-up opportunities; it outspeeds all relevant Scarfers and the tier has very little priority, so it can sweep pretty easily. This can be seen in this RUWC semifinals game between Confide and TKO: link. Contrary to popular belief, it can fit on standard bulky offense and doesn't need to be limited to hyper offense; it doesn't necessarily need screens / Memento / Veil support, because there's plenty of Pokemon on standard teams rn that give it free setup opportunities.

some calcs to show Barb's sweeping prowess:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 325-383 (100.6 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zarude: 352-415 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Seismitoad: 452-536 (109.1 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 325-383 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

======

Some other Pokemon in lower tiers that I think show promise in RU but 1) haven't used enough to talk about or 2) are already pretty well-known

1) (esp subtox)
2)

======

Enjoy!

 

[MrAldo]

Incineroar is a great addition to the tier. More variety in dark type pivots that isnt just zarude is really appreciated, while offering great defensive utility versus the obvious dark monkey? even better. Will provide tons of utility in terms of pivoting and a respectable threat levei with potential SD Sets, do not sleep on its offensive capabilities. Really nice mon and cant keep down the aspect of variety incineroar provides. Using other grass types may actually be appealing now!

Magnezone seems disappointing at first but I wouldnt jump the gun on it just yet, it could develop into a very neat partner to a good couple of mons cause in the end stuff do like getting steel types removed and thats always a niche one can consider, and isnt like magnezone doesnt offer defensive utility as a steel. Analytic sets could potentially be very interesting. Time will tell but for now it looks unappealing cause trapping steels isnt on high demand right now.

Regarding other mons to use... man, there is a sea of real nice mons to consider, just keeping track of all of those with the crazy usage stats is just so difficult. Durant is super fun and gives me adrenaline rushes every turn (no but really, super strong breaker with solid speed tier and now with first impression!). Decidueye and Dhelmise act as really solid electric responses to like Thundurus and Xurkitree so thats dope. Semi Hail cores with Arctozolt are always fun, and Mienshao is an obvious.

Looking pretty stable finally, so now we can actually develop a meta ffs. Cheers!

 

[gye5]

I wanna ask to the council if zarude is gonna get a suspect or not. Are there any mons that are problematic

 

[Pabloaram]

Zarude isnt problematic... is a top tier mon wich help checking threats like milotic and have many common check like cobalion or togekiss

 

[Fabi_ODST]

I wanna ask to the council if zarude is gonna get a suspect or not. Are there any mons that are problematic

I think this goes into the Q&A threat, but I don't think there are any plans to suspect anything right now. With the incineroar drop we also gained a new dark type pivot that also acts as a check for zarude. Give it a couple of weeks for the meta to start adopting it.

 

[Pabloaram]

I think this goes into the Q&A threat, but I don't think there are any plans to suspect anything right now. With the incineroar drop we also gained a new dark type pivot that also acts as a check for zarude. Give it a couple of weeks for the meta to start adopting it.

The most banneable mon rn is Galarbro, especially quick claw/draw with Nasty Plot or BD.. But G-bro is also a nice pivot with Regen and AV or CM

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Umbreon, why is this thing still ru? It probably is pu viable but at this point its clogging an ru tier spot, get people to stop using it because it sucks, there are tons of better defensive mons in the tier, and it gets dumpstered by taunt too, so there really is no point for umbreon to even be in this tier.

On the other hand, I can see sirfetch'd becoming a legitimate threat,, having scrappy allows it to hit a lot of things, and while it does get outsped, having a sticky webber to support it can help it get onto the field and ensure that it will bring something down with it. Currently sirfetch'd is pu right now, but I can see it being viable as a heavy hitting wallbreaker, as we have high defense threats like registeel, cobalion, milotic, metagross, and stakataka. While a lot of things can outspeed it, using a sticky band user to get webs set up and allow sirfetch'd to hit defensive staple pokemon incredibly hard with its banded set with the right support. It does seem a little niche, but it seems like one worth having with all the defensive staples in ru.

 

[iceblazer]

Umbreon, why is this thing still ru? It probably is pu viable but at this point its clogging an ru tier spot, get people to stop using it because it sucks, there are tons of better defensive mons in the tier, and it gets dumpstered by taunt too, so there really is no point for umbreon to even be in this tier.

That’s quite simple. As we all know by know, Eevee and it’s evolutions are very popular in the fandom. And ultimately, people will slap their favorite mons onto teams without any regard whether they’re viable or not. You must remember that for every competent player out there, there are ten new players to fill in the gap. Remember how in USUM, Jolteon refused to drop down to PU?

 

[HailFall]

mac3, gorex, zizalith, myself, and a few others have been discussing incineroar spreads in the RUcord, and this is the final result:

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 48 SpA / 176 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Overheat
- Toxic
- Parting Shot

The SpA EVs mean that overheat always OHKOes Cobalion and almost always 2HKOes full SpD Steelix. The Speed EVs allow it to outspeed 252 Adamant Rhyperior. The HP and Defense ensure that Incineroar is never 2HKOed by Specs Chandelure Fire Blast, while maximizing its physical bulk. Alternatively, you can use 88 Spe to outpace 252 Spe Glastrier instead and put the remainder into defense. An alternative spread of 168 HP / 204 Def / 48 SpA / 88 Spe with a Relaxed nature slightly boosts Incineroar's physical bulk while maintaining its ability to avoid a 2HKO from Specs Chandelure, but leaves it less specially bulky by a wider margin than the increase in physical bulk.

Hopefully some people find this spread helpful.

 

[zizalith]

Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Flash Cannon
- Metal Sound / Charge beam

this traps the fat steels reliably

heres what you trap:

• 
• 
• stealth rock
• 
• , if metal sound
• uninvested
• choice locked
• choice locked
• choice locked
• a at 50% or less, if at full and running charge beam

this pool of mons is small, which is why i think this is a pretty niche mon. however it does own these way better than magnezone and teammates can rely on it more safely. theres always a risk of a crit, but you can often kill them faster with metal sound.
the big ones here are registeel and steelix, because magnezone cant trap these as easily. the others are significant, but zone can mostly do the same.
the choice between metal sound and charge beam is mostly up to preference, as both have the potential to trap all of the targets shown.

metal sound is more reliable against steelix, because you dont have to rely on pp stalling earthquake, and registeel bc you can pp stall it pretty easily.
charge beam lets you boost your way through all of the steels except steelix. (regi can theoretically protect enough where it wins, but you have a significant advantage). i like this one a lot because it can actually pose a threat after its done trapping a steel, as not much can beat a +6 def +6 spa magneton 1v1.

the reason why i run this over magnezone is because of eviolite, which lets you sponge eqs and neutral attacks waay more comfortably. technically you lose to iron defense + body press steelix and registeel but those sets suck so whos really losing here

this is the only replay i could find. i recommend putting this on hyper fast speed. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1241327892


i still think magpull does have SOME niche, as there are certain steels magnezone can prep for specifically.

• the air balloon magnet rise set can actually let you beat reliably, which magneton cant even attempt to do
• specific resist berries like chople can help vs matchups like cobalion
• body press helps a ton against trick room , which magneton loses to
• most viably though, i can see a scarf zone work in specific hyper offenses such as shark spikes, full hail, or linoone builds, as it traps and either removes or neuters steel threats to these archetypes. a at 45 cant do much against an arctozolt, for example. it also has a better matchup against and .

 

[Umbra Soul]

Umbreon, why is this thing still ru? It probably is pu viable but at this point its clogging an ru tier spot, get people to stop using it because it sucks, there are tons of better defensive mons in the tier, and it gets dumpstered by taunt too, so there really is no point for umbreon to even be in this tier.

Tbh, beyond popularity, Umbreon is actually a pretty decent special sponge and check to recent drops and meta trends. It really pairs well with certain mons to act as a defensive core for teams. By itself, yeah umbreon's got like nothing going for it, but it pairs well with mons like Togekiss or some ghosts like Alola-Wak to keep them healthy over the course of a game which allows it some more switch ins. Cleric work is neat.

A mon I have been finding really fun as of late is our Yuki-Onna spiker Froslass. A shift from slow-ish fatter things to these faster and less bulky meta changes is a welcome for Froslass. Spikes can be very annoying for teams who aren't investing in Boots on multiple mons as well as pressuring steelix for our Electrics, access to Poltergeist lets it do some ok damage to things while scouting items for you, being able to Taunt or status with Burn or Paralysis is great in this meta, customizable last move with Triple Axel / Icy Wind / DBond / Tricking some item. Not to mention if you get a cursed body activation, it gives you some good tactical options even if it dies. There's a lot I really enjoy about Froslass in the current meta. It might not be the Keys / Roserade / Hera / Golisopod, but I feel it shouldn't be overlooked as a spiker option given it pairs well with a decent amount of the tier.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Incineroar (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat / Earthquake

While I doubt that SD incineroar will enjoy the popularity it's pivot sets will enjoy, I think that it's a great breaker to use for a couple of reasons. One of them is that it has a excellent stab combo that this tier lacks good answers to. When you look at defensive cores such as Togekiss + Registeel, or even cores such as steelix + mantine, or a steel type + suicune, a lot of these cores fold to roars stab moves alone.

The first one does not comfortably take flare blitz, while in next two examples both fire type checks often rely on there item to function at their best. Mantine losing its boots cripples it for the rest of the game and suicune relies on leftovers for passive recovery and is essential for sub sets. It also gets a good amount of setup opportunities thanks to its typing and intimidate. It forces out most psychic types as well not fearing much from them and scares out steels and zarude

Another good trait is its ability to check zarude. Zarude tends to be everywhere and this checks the common boots sets and can come in vs scarf if they don't click close combat. It sits on the bulk up jungle healing sets too as you boost faster than it. And to top it off, most people wouldn't suspect SD incineroar so it has good surprise factor in nuking things

Hide

+2 252 Atk Incineroar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Milotic: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Milotic will take over 60% of its health trying to check it and can't ohko you back. And you force it into clicking recover. After losing its item knock off into close combat kills it.

+2 252 Atk Incineroar Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Milotic: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Incineroar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Milotic: 209-247 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Incineroar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 207-244 (5+2 252 Atk Incineroar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 207-244 (50 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery0 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Incineroar Close Combat vs+2 252 Atk Incineroar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 207-244 (50 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recove

Knock off into close combat kills another common fire type check while it either only 2hkos you back or toxics you.

+2 252 Atk Incineroar Close Combat vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 288-339 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It also nukes offensive rhyperior after a bit of chip damage.

While it can't really beat suicune, it can at the very least do a decent chunk with a unboosted knock off and let something else deal with it. This also limits the amounts of subs sub variants can put up.

Finally compared to its closest competition in mons like bewear as a slow nuke and obstagoon as a strong dark type this offers a somewhat safe option for offensive teams vs chandelure. Of course a defensive set does much better vs specs, but this gives you some backbone vs that and other ghosts like polteageist and Alolan marowak with proper prediction.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

However, there are likely better clerics that are less prone to being taunted like sylveon and togekiss, being less prone to dark types switching in to press taunt. Umbreon lacks coverage and the nu threat sylveon could possibly be a better cleric, as not many darks with taunt wanna switch in to deal with it, it is functionally better than umbreon. And if it drops, espeon will likely outclass umbreon there as a support pokemon as well, due to it actually having fairy coverage to deal with dark types in ru that love hitting taunt, as well as having magic bounce to reflect taunt. My point being there are better wish supporters than umbreon, even with potential synergy.


However like I was saying in my previous post, I feel like sirfetch'd could offer a very valuable niche with the right support. One sticky webber is all it takes for banded jolly sirfetch'd to deal with a lot of common ru walls. Forcing the opponent to run pokemon with heavy duty boots that would normally run leftovers, life orb, choice items, rocky helmet, and weakness policy. Forcing the opponent to run boots just to dodge sticky web can allow you to run other wallbreaker pokemon that are forced to run boots to avoid sticky webs to take out the pokemon that are running it. The point being, sirfetch'd and a sticky webber can easily pressure the opponent and a good chunk of the metas walls could force a lot of pressure on the metagame wall. My point being, sirfetch'd could be a valuable pokemon for ru to gain, as with sticky web support, it could pressure a lot of walls into running boots, which then makes them more prone to getting smacked by other wallbreakers. Sure it may be countered by galarian slowbro or anything running priority moves that are faster, but sirfetch'd under sticky web support is a monstrous wallbreaker. My only question is, which sticky webber in the lower tiers do we bring up to ru from a lower to make this strategy work?

 

[Pabloaram]

The idea of using silveon over umbreon could be posible but Espeon?? Espeon is more likelly to be Offensive and if a dark switch on you the last thing clicked gonna be Taunt..
Also Sylveon doesnt is as good as Togekiss rn bc he doenst resist both STAB of Zarude making fairly easy to best with boosted Power Whip