Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Beauty and the Boost - Pheromosa is now banned

[Mame YO]

Again, I've given up on arguing against phermosa's ban specifically. There is no argument that will change your minds. The argument is bigger than that and despite the likeliness of the post being deleted - it's the only discussion worth having at this point.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Do your intentions endanger the gameplay of your beloved game over a longer timeline? I believe the answer is dangerously close to yes. I believe it's worth considering as it's always been my experience that people tend to want the removal of difficult obstacles in any competitive environment. I have quietly observed many of your suspect tests at this point and regardless of my own stance on these ventures - and despite your admirable intentions - there doesn't really seem to be much of a counterweight to the banhammer you all seem so collectively fond of. It worries me, and I believe it should worry all of you if you care about the health of the game as you say you do.

 

[GH[O]ST]

Let's talk about the main point you all seem to be making: removing mosa will introduce variety that we haven't seen to this point of SM OU because of the constraint that mosa apparently imposes on team building. And let's ignore for now the fact that greninja and metagross do the same exact thing...

Whether or not Greninja and Metagross do the exact same thing is irrelevant to the suspect process of Pheromosa. You seem to be implying that Greninja and Metagross are immune from suspect, when the fact of the matter is that you'd have to be a fool not to wager that both will be suspect tested down the road.

As for whether Greninja and Metagross do in fact put the same strain on teambuilding like pheromosa does - that's absurd in my opinion. Pheromosa not only has a greater variety of different sets that allow it to perform a multitude of offensive (and even a supportive role in hazard control) but it also performs these each of these roles at a greater potency than Metagross and even Greninja can dream of. Metagross is a beast but it's extremely straightforward (you're only going to get a physical attacker and it does not have the luxury of abusing literally all 3 choice items, z moves, sash, LO, like Pheromosa can), has 4mss, and does not eclipse everything in the tier in terms of speed - it's easier to check, wall, and counterplay. Greninja has the potential to do a lot of damage but it just does not have the stats to back it up and muscle through anything in its path like pheromosa. It cannot abuse several different items/z moves like pheromosa and it never turns into a disaster due to one small misprediction like Pheromosa does when it snowballs.

Basically, the fact that pheromosa can launch wall breaking attacks from both ends of the spectrum and sitting atop the highest speed in the tier without using a mega slot (which also means it can abuse choice items, sash , zmove, etc) puts it on a completely different level than Metagross, Greninja, Lele, what have you.

What mons stand to gain in viability? People have mentioned serperior, weavile, hydreigon, etc as mons that stand to benefit from a pheromosa ban. But how much will mons like these truly profit in an environment that still contains many major obstacles to their viability? This mindset may be noble but isn't the most likely outcome to be that the meta merely centralizes around other S/A rank mons instead? And then what happens when you ban those mons? Another mon steps in their place? Today it's mosa, tomorrow it's metagross. Then ninja. Later on it becomes Zard X or maybe tapu Lele, or whatever. It doesn't matter.

are you kidding me? so much is rendered a liability or even useless by pheromosas stupidly high offensive stats. have you played on the suspect ladder? because the proof is right there.

I think you misunderstand the whole basis for banning. the basis for banning is not centralizing, but overcentralizing. If something is deemed overcentralizing it will be banned. The mindset doesnt call to ban something that is centralizing.

The point is that you can't fight the power creep by banning every mon that presents challenges to team building. You have 6 slots, and 24 move slots. You can't cover everything. There will always be a mon that you have to prepare for in team building, or another mon that you may not be able to fully account for. Do we ban them too until we're left with a stale and predictable metagame?

again, we understand that no team is perfectly able to handle anything and everything. what you dont seem to understand is that some threats strain teambuilding more than others.

I realize that this post is in danger of being deleting for straying from the narrow topic of banning pheromosa or not, but let's not kid ourselves; You will ban pheromosa. The only logical argument against banning pheromosa relies on doubting your ban philosophy. if you refuse to entertain that your philosophy is not infallible, then there is no coherent argument to be made against banning whatever S rank mon you're having trouble with at any given time. And I personally find that to be unfortunate. So go ahead, ban this mon, and then the next. And the next. You will only have yourselves to blame when team building becomes formalaic and gameplay becomes stale and predictable despite your best intentions.

Again, you do not understand the banning philosophy. Things that are deemed overcentralizing are banned. There is no good reason to doubt the actual philosophy. The goal is to create a desirable (subjective factor btw) metagame and you won't find a better philosophy to achieve that goal.

 

[OverlordDerp]

Hear me out before you delete this.

I'm still convinced that there is an echo chamber stifling debate here. It's like you've allowed yourselves to be so sucked in by your precious consensus philosophy that opposing viewpoints are largely opposed and ridiculed as invalid and/or you attack the poster (as Gary mentioned). It's very much like a political ideology. Sure, you may be like the Grand Old Party in that you don't all necessarily agree with each other point for point, but the starting place is the same with all of you.

Let's talk about the main point you all seem to be making: removing mosa will introduce variety that we haven't seen to this point of SM OU because of the constraint that mosa apparently imposes on team building. And let's ignore for now the fact that greninja and metagross do the same exact thing...

What mons stand to gain in viability? People have mentioned serperior, weavile, hydreigon, etc as mons that stand to benefit from a pheromosa ban. But how much will mons like these truly profit in an environment that still contains many major obstacles to their viability? This mindset may be noble but isn't the most likely outcome to be that the meta merely centralizes around other S/A rank mons instead? And then what happens when you ban those mons? Another mon steps in their place? Today it's mosa, tomorrow it's metagross. Then ninja. Later on it becomes Zard X or maybe tapu Lele, or whatever. It doesn't matter.

The point is that you can't fight the power creep by banning every mon that presents challenges to team building. You have 6 slots, and 24 move slots. You can't cover everything. There will always be a mon that you have to prepare for in team building, or another mon that you may not be able to fully account for. Do we ban them too until we're left with a stale and predictable metagame?

I realize that this post is in danger of being deleting for straying from the narrow topic of banning pheromosa or not, but let's not kid ourselves; You will ban pheromosa. The only logical argument against banning pheromosa relies on doubting your ban philosophy. if you refuse to entertain that your philosophy is not infallible, then there is no coherent argument to be made against banning whatever S rank mon you're having trouble with at any given time. And I personally find that to be unfortunate. So go ahead, ban this mon, and then the next. And the next. You will only have yourselves to blame when team building becomes formalaic and gameplay becomes stale and predictable despite your best intentions.

Again, I've given up on arguing against phermosa's ban specifically. There is no argument that will change your minds. The argument is bigger than that and despite the likeliness of the post being deleted - it's the only discussion worth having at this point.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Do your intentions endanger the gameplay of your beloved game over a longer timeline? I believe the answer is dangerously close to yes. I believe it's worth considering as it's always been my experience that people tend to want the removal of difficult obstacles in any competitive environment. I have quietly observed many of your suspect tests at this point and regardless of my own stance on these ventures - and despite your admirable intentions - there doesn't really seem to be much of a counterweight to the banhammer you all seem so collectively fond of. It worries me, and I believe it should worry all of you if you care about the health of the game as you say you do.

Let's get a couple things straight here.

Whether things like Serp or Hydreigon gain viability post-suspect is, in a phrase, irrelevant to the core purpose of the suspect test. Any increases or decreases in viability are incidental.

A suspect test is enacted because the suspect in question is unhealthy to the metagame in and of its own perceived merits.

The "main point people seem to be making" is absolutely NOT that things will gain in viability. While it's nice, it is both outside of the scope of the suspect test, as well as generally outside of the realm of prediction bar blanket generalizations. Just because it happens, doesn't mean anyone here sees it as an end goal - they are simply reporting upon the changes they see on the current suspect ladder. No one's doing any Nostradamus future-meta-prediction shit. The sole purpose of this suspect test is, and always will be, to cull unhealthy portions of the metagame.

Furthermore, you posit that the council/community would just go forward and ban the next most centralizing/top-tier/difficult to play around centerpiece of the metagame until it becomes some stale shadow of what it could be. I wish to preface this by saying that this is one of the most prevalent arguments against Smogon's ban policy - as well as one of the most prevalent slippery-slope arguments ever leveled against it.

If you're so sure that right after Pheromosa, Greninja/M-Meta/(next top-tier mon) is gonna get the boot, I'd like to see your plane ticket to Delphi in Greece, because there's no earthly way you can guess that chain of events in between transient metagames without a freaking oracle. Upon banning something, the metagame irreversibly changes - this much is known. However, by virtue of that, we have no idea whether or not the top-tiers will stay top tier.

And if they still do, and they resist meta changes to the point where they (maybe unhealthily) repress things anyways... well, isn't that a good a reason as any to suspect them? Who knows, they might not be unhealthy anymore after certain changes, but the main point here is that we just don't know yet, and claiming that the top tiers are just gonna be banned purely as a matter of course is fallacious.

There's obviously gonna be cornerstones of the meta - Stealth Rocks comes to mind. But we don't ban that, no matter how centralizing it's perceived to be, because there is no valid argument that it's OVERcentralizing, or that it stifles the metagame at all. Things like Volcarona and the Zards are viable, and even thriving, despite their crippling weakness to that hazard.

If you're still concerned about the policy of these suspect tests, bring it up with a council member. Stating that any or all of the council + community will go on a banning spree of all the perceived "top-tiers" until the game is a bland, kosher slugfest is, if I may be blunt, goddamn nonsense.

 

[Mame YO]

Again, you do not understand the banning philosophy. Things that are deemed overcentralizing are banned. There is no good reason to doubt the actual philosophy. The goal is to create a desirable (subjective factor btw) metagame and you won't find a better philosophy to achieve that goal.

Again, I've given up on arguing the merits of a mosa ban specifically - and I don't want this to devolve into an argument about metagross or greninja either.

The real question, and your post exemplifies it - is do I truly lack understanding of your philosophy or are you so ingrained in it that you believe it to be irreproachable? Back to the political ideology metaphor - if you believe something as a starting point, and you refuse to entertain that that starting point may be flawed then you are at risk of betraying your own intentions. The fact that you believe that "there is no good reason to doubt" your ban philosophy as a starting point is exactly my point in questioning your process. It seems to me that you have definitely crossed into the echo chamber mentality in which you refuse to have your fundamental philosophical leanings to be questioned and much like what's seen in mainstream politics it causes arguments against such fundamental points to be invalidated in your mind before you even ever consider the argument in a critical way.

 

[GH[O]ST]

Again, I've given up on arguing the merits of a mosa ban specifically - and I don't want this to devolve into an argument about metagross or greninja either.

The real question, and your post exemplifies it - is do I truly lack understanding of your philosophy or are you so ingrained in it that you believe it to be irreproachable? Back to the political ideology metaphor - if you believe something as a starting point, and you refuse to entertain that that starting point may be flawed then you are at risk of betraying your own intentions. The fact that you believe that "there is no good reason to doubt" your ban philosophy as a starting point is exactly my point in questioning your process. It seems to me that you have definitely crossed into the echo chamber mentality in which you refuse to have your fundamental philosophical leanings to be questioned and much like what's seen in mainstream politics it causes arguments against such fundamental points to be invalidated in your mind before you even ever consider the argument in a critical way.

All you're doing is drawing assumptions about my subscription to smogon's philosophy. I do not know why you think I, or many of the other users here, have not entertained the idea that the starting point is flawed. There have been numerous posts and discussions pages long filled with walls of text about smogon's philosophy and you think everyone here just blindly accepts it?

There is no echo chamber mentality when it comes to the philosophy. The philosophy has been meticulously detailed and scrutinized for as long as I remember. There is a reason smogon has lasted for over a decade (i believe). They are obviously doing something right in creating a desirable metagame as new users still flock to it to take part in the desirable metagame.

I agree with you that nothing should just be blindly followed but you have provided absolutely zero arguments that demerit smogon's philosophy.

 

[Shurtugal]

Hello!

Before I begin this post, I want to say that I am fully supporting the banning of this Pokemon. I've achieved suspect requirements and this is what I've decided I would like to vote.

However, it seems the discussion here has been sort of sprawling in all kinds of directions, so I want to bring it back up to pace.

See, the fact that everyone is so unified on Pheromosa being banned is nice, but also kind of weird imo, because there are some valid arguments for why Pheromosa might be able to stay. So in this post I sort of wanted to go over Pheromosa in detail and highlight its pros and cons a bit, maybe help get some good discussion going.

So with Pheromosa, the first thing to note is that it isn't as limiting to teambuilding as one would originally think. TDK outlines how priority is a good way to take down Pheromosa, although Pheromosa is bulky enough to live some priority in its common forms, and even says that Quiver Dance Pheromosa can escape the KO from Water Shuriken, a means of priority which otherwise would beat Pheromosa. The first thing to note on this is that people aren't running Water Shuriken on Ash Greninja only for Pheromosa -- being a reliable check to most Pheromosa sets is a boon for sure, but Ash Greninja needs that powerful priority options anyway to threaten the heavily-offensive metagame that SM has become, so it isn't exactly limiting in this regard. It is actually a highly-used mon that can check Pheromosa very well.

A lot of new metagame trends such as Banded Zygarde and DD Zygarde, both which have a very powerful priority attack, and the general rise of Gengar and even Mimikyu's presence are all very good ways to shut down Pheromosa. Some players speculate that Gengar's rise in usage is only because of Pheromosa, but I really feel like it would be more accurate to say that the majority of the SM OU playerbase simply wrote off Gengar is bad because of its loss of levitate, and as the tier developed people realized that Ghost/Poison offensive typing with a strong Fighting coverage move will always be good in any OU Metagame, and that is why it rose. Even with Pheromosa's absence, Gengar's overall viability won't be affected. Further more, Band Zygarde hits a lot of balance hard and is one of the strongest Priority Mons in the tier; priority cores (Zygarde Band + Mega Maw being the most common priority core) can blanket check more threats than simply Pheromosa, and will still be strong even with its absence.

Toxapex isn't a super limiting Pokemon to run because it is one of the tiers best blanket checks to mostly everything; Pheromosa is just one other Pokemon Toxapex can beat amongst the many it can counter/check for its team.

Contrary to what this thread has implied, Speed-boosting Pheromosa sets aren't particularly common or even Pheromosa's best set imo, as the Pokemon is plenty fast either with a Scarf or its neutral invested speed / QD boost as aside from Scarf Pokemon it really doesn't miss much. With this said, Choice Scarf Pokemon are used for a lot of things in the metagame, Zard X and Volcarona and Gyarados/Salamence being the users that come to the top of my head. For these reasons, Priority / Choice Scarf Pokemon / Webs / any form of speed control is really valuable in this metagame and can pressure / check a lot of Pheromosa sets as Scarf is one of its lesser-used sets as are the Speed-boosting ones. Not saying you can 100% rely on Scarf / Webs / DD / QD to jump Mosa, but they are things that a lot of teams run that can check a majority of Pheromosa's best sets. One of the best Pokemon in the OU tier, Mega Metagross, has one of the strongest priority moves in Bullet Punch and is bulky enough to live most attacks Pheromosa can throw (Focus Blast Specs can OHKO and Z-Focus Blast has a roll), making it a very sturdy Pheromosa check.

Counterplay involving Pheromosa highly depends on its set, but it isn't as hard to scout as some players make it out to be. All special attacking Pheromosa sets (QD, Specs, LO Special) are all handled through things like Toxapex, Gengar, Marowak, Tapu Fini, and priority/scarf anyway. The thing with special attacking Mosa is that they don't normally carry U-Turn or Poison Jab, so they usually don't come out until lategame as they cannot spam U-Turn to get out of bad situations. The physical set will find ways to come in earlier in the game than special attacking Mosa and the moment you see U-Turn you can pretty much always beat Mosa with checks like Venusaur Landorus-T Marowak Gengar Toxapex Intimidate Gyarados Zapdos etc. that are highly splashable on teams; in fact, physical mosa has a lot of common checks imo that make that set seem underwhelming. Physical Speed Boosting nature Pheromosa was the only set in early SM OU and it was so underwhelming that it didn't even make S Rank and saved it from a quickban imo. In terms of scouting Mosa it is almost like Charizard scouting in the sense that while you don't really know which mon / spectrum it is going to hit from, the way both sets play are so different as well as the teams they are put on that it can sort of clue you into the set they have.

Ghost types are good since there aren't many resists in the tier atm, priority is strong in a offensive-based metagame, scarfers are good in the speed-control meta, all fairly good checks to mosa sets taht aren't going to go away anytime soon.

People get held up on the fact that Mosa doesn't have many "counters" but a lot of things don't have "counters" anymore and especially offensive teams you're mostly relying on checks anyway. Offensive teams especially are check-oriented, and a lot of checks are splashable that can counterplay Mosa.

-.-.-

However, despite these things, I feel Pheromosa should still be banned. While I do not think Pheromosa is as problematic as Mega Metagross, Pheromosa is versatile and still fairly unhealthy to teambuild around. It has huge offensive stats and access to a fast + powerful U-Turn which allow it to dent a lot of its checks/counters and it has the ability to use Z-Anything to blast through most of its counters. Z Poison Jab removes Tapu Fini, Z Hyper Beam can remove Toxapex (and also Tapu Fini), Z Focus removes the need to hit Focus + lets it damage through resists like Zapdos or what-have-you.

It is naturally faster than most of the metagame, and giving it a Choice Scarf will ensure it outspeeds everything (even Pokemon like Kingdra and Excadrill that teams spend several teamslots to support).

Its bulk may appear bad, but it actually enough to live a lot of random priority attacks such as Bullet Punch from defensive Scizor and stuff, making it feel more bulky than it should be from 100%, so priority teams need to rack up hazards to put it into KO range or other means of chip damage, which can be frustarting / limiting at times.

The most intimidating part about Pheromosa is its ability to hit from either the physical or special spectrum with incredible power and access to one of the most powerful boosting moves in the game. It has item freedom, even things like Focus Sash on Pheromosa isn't bad and lets it shutdown would be forms of RK assuming you keep rocks off. It also gets Rapid Spin, which is very good as offensive teams are really hard pressed to find hazard control on their teams with only Mega Scizor Defog, Excadril (Scarf or Sash) and Tapu Fini as ways to remove them.

Pheromosa can hit from any spectrum, forcing players to respect it and sac several Pokemon just to identify its set. You can argue that Metagross Mega does the same thing, but I would argue that Metagross is also ban-worthy so not sure if that argument holds.

-.-.-

While I will be voting Ban on Pheromosa, I am a bit shocked to see that there aren't more people that wouldn't want it banned. It has reasonable counterplay measures, and things like Mega Metagross and Protean Grneinja are arguably harder to prepare for. If there is one thing I'd like to say, it is that even though Metagross and Greninja probably deserves a ban and might have been better canidates to ban first, it doens't actually matter when something is suspected so long as the right choice is made. Pheromosa should be banned, especially in metagames without Metagross or Greninja imo, so it is the right choice to ban it.

I know it is sending mixed signals to offer so much anti-ban arguments, but a lot of people were asking for some so I thought I'd share my reasons why I felt Pheromosa was a bit more grounded, even though I personally think it is broken and ban-worthy.

Happy laddering! Can't wait to ban this thing and move on to Mega Metagross.

 

[Mame YO]

Let's get a couple things straight here.

Whether things like Serp or Hydreigon gain viability post-suspect is, in a phrase, irrelevant to the core purpose of the suspect test. Any increases or decreases in viability are incidental.

A suspect test is enacted because the suspect in question is unhealthy to the metagame in and of its own perceived merits.

This type of moving the goal posts argument is quite frustrating, as your core argument that a suspect is too constraining on the meta logically leads to increasing the number of viable mons/movesets/playstyles in the meta. I'm not going to go through and quote every argument along these lines in this thread (or others) to make my point, but don't pretend that suspecting and potentially removing a mon isn't done with the assumption (or, I daresay intent) that removing it will release constraints on team building and increase variety in the meta.

 

[Night Train Lane]

This type of moving the goal posts argument is quite frustrating, as your core argument that a suspect is too constraining on the meta logically leads to increasing the number of viable mons/movesets/playstyles in the meta. I'm not going to go through and quote every argument along these lines in this thread (or others) to make my point, but don't pretend that suspecting and potentially removing a mon isn't done with the assumption (or, I daresay intent) that removing it will release constraints on team building and increase variety in the meta.

I'm sure everyone would like to hear your experience in the OU metagame and OU tier as it sounds like you're talking from the outside. Have you laddered or joined tours before the Pheromosa suspect? Have you laddered or joined tours after the suspect? Do you plan on getting reqs? It sounds like the only reason you come here is to debate with people about our suspect policy which is not the intention of this thread, nor is it some grand theme of Smogon players being ban happy. You mentioned you stalk the suspect threads, but do you actually participate? Or is it simply starting arguments for the sake of it.

 

[Mame YO]

I do not start arguments for the sake of it. Since you ask: I am relatively new to competitive Pokémon and have played in the mid 1500s to low 1600s in OU prior to the suspect. I've also hit moderately high levels in other PvP games: 2200+ in WoW (and High Warlord rank in vanilla), level 40+ in the old halo ladders (primarily H2 & H3, though I don't play shooters anymore). I've also done well in RTS and 4X games, holding my own on Starcraft ladders, Civ, and others as well. I've played basically every genre of game that offers a competitive PvP scene. So yes, my experience in competitive Pokémon laddering is relatively minimal at this point, but I'm no stranger to PvP nor am I a stranger to debating balance or gameplay mechanics in general.

 

[Gary]

It's time to stop.

 

[Jojobobo]

These arguments are extremely ridiculous when both Ubers and Anything Goes exist, I could possibly understand such a response if OU was the only possible tier people could play and when a pokemon was banned it disappeared off the face of the earth - but that simply isn't the case.

As these higher tiers do exist, all OU needs to focus on is producing the most enjoyable meta-game possible in terms of offering players a strategic challenge when they come to designing their own teams. Some Pokémon, like let's say Mega Salamence while the argument for whether to ban Pheromosa is still on-going, dramatically reduce strategy both to have on your team because they offer a high level of an innate power but also to counter as your options to deal with it become limited so you have to rely just a few Pokémon to get by. This limits intelligent strategy and logical design on both ends, as there's no real reason not to use something so powerful, and naturally its counters are everywhere too.

I think the Council need a better way to slap people round the face with these facts when "philosophical" anti-ban arguments come up, as there's clearly some sort of conflict between what OU is trying to do and what game they want to play - particularly as Ubers and Anything Goes exist so that everyone's needs should be catered for. How best to implement that I couldn't say.

I also think you should re-instate Victory Road so that better debates on suspects, and discussion on the meta in general, can ensue. I know this came up in Policy Review at some point, but lowly serfs like me can't post there. Though I wasn't ever a member of Victory Road when you had it, I enjoyed simply reading through the threads as they didn't become such a horrible mindless fire pit like these threads do. For those of you who aren't aware, it was a limited membership sub-forum to keep discussions to a high standard.

I'm not sure what criteria you used for membership to Victory Road before, but I think if you did both Victory Road tours to grant membership (say to 1st, 2nd and 3rd places) and granted membership to people who ladder high in OU (say people who climb to the top 50 in a settled meta who ask for membership and provide a screenshot confirming it was them) that would be good enough - or obviously whatever arbitrary criteria you want. Even if a person ladders high through a gimmick team, it still means they had to have the meta knowledge to exploit that weakness in the current tier so their opinion would be valid. Mods would of course reverse the right to pull membership at any point for people acting up, and you could possibly have membership automatically revoked for everyone with the release of a new game to mean that everyone there always has a good grasp of the current meta.

What I noticed with the previous version of Victory Road is that there wasn't a lot of activity in the sub-forum. I think to counter-act this the sub-forum should be better advertised/promoted and membership be made something to aspire to in order to attract a decent number of people. You can make it something to aspire to by offering some sort of perk, whether it be something superficial like a banner for your forum avatar saying "Victory Road Member" or something less superficial like greater sway in suspects (their votes count for 2 if they get the reqs, etc.) would be something for you to decide. It terms of advertising it, I'm guessing lots of stickies promoting membership benefits and something else to make it catch the eye (unique colouration of the sub-forum, etc.) would work.

By doing this, I think it would have a knock on effect of making the whole ladder better, as people would have a reason to try hard as there would be a tangible reward. I know when I ladder I'll get to 1700 and if I find myself sticking there for even a short amount of time I'll just give up, as 1700 I'd say makes a team successful for me and there's nothing really incentivising me to put in the effort to try and get higher. By offering a reward like Victory Road Membership, probably people would try harder to get into those top spots so you'd get more competition at that higher end.

I guess lastly I think you guys could also do with a Suggestion Box thread, where people without appropriate forum status can put forward an idea that others with the appropriate access may then create a thread about in Policy Review. There's something very unsatisfying about PMing a mod with an idea as they can completely ignore it and also it doesn't really publicise the idea very well, it produces a bit of a disconnect between regular forum members and the mods and I think it can be a little daunting too. Such a thread wouldn't counter-act this problem and create a better dialogue with the community in general, with people feeling that their voice isn't being heard seemingly a common problem around here. Such a thread also wouldn't be a discussion thread, the rule would be people are limited to one post to put forward their idea (people can simply like their post if they agree with the idea) and you could periodically delete posts from it when either the topic has been addressed in Policy Review (or privately by the Council) or rejected because it was just downright stupid.

Apologies for getting this topic way off track, and feel free to delete the post if you want to. However, regardless of whether you delete it or not, I think you should give the points some consideration. I also think that maybe leaving the post here would be a good idea, just to gauge whether these ideas have any traction with the community in general. Maybe if parts of some or all of these ideas are carried forward, we may one day see a suspect thread that doesn't become a total crapfest.

 

[MohHumG]

Ok So I do understand the great deal of heat surrounding this mon and so I would like to preface this post by saying that these are personal opinions on the mon and the experience that I have had using it and facing it. I have decided to just make a post now since I wanted to get a good feel for the meta in this mons absence. Just to get out of the way,At first I was conflicted but now I do think this mon is deserving of the ban and I would like to share why I think so.

Firstly, I would like to touch upon the fact that many have stated that this mon is restrictive on teambuilding. I disagree with this statement since what this implies is Pheromosa has counters to begin with. Simply it does not. There is not one mon which can safley handle the great versatility boasted by this mon. Toxapex comes closest however it falters to sets such as Breakneck Blitz Quiver Dance and Choice Specs HP Electric, with some prior damage. This applies huge pressure to the many balance and bulky offense cores which have arisen as a result of this mon. This forces these archetypes to resort to extreme forms of counterplay which is only effective once the set of Pheremosa has been identified which can prove to be quite the task as each set provides its own problems for the opponent to work around. Earlier in the meta, LO AoA was the most prominent set which was dealt with by using pivots to tackle its coverage to slowly wear it down however other sets, such as choiced and Z Move sets, circumvent this issue while providing team support as well as the ability to break down defensive backbones. A major factor attributing to this is its unrivalled speed tier, and speed boosts provided by beast boost, which allow it to avoid the traditional methods of revenge killing forcing opponents to play in a way which almost guarantees the loss or weakening of a mon crucial to that matchup, or the loss of momentum which can be taken advantage of by the many partners which work in tandem with this mon. With all of this however, It can be argued that even with all this, Pheremosa is still manageable is not as stifling on the progression as mons such as Mega Gross. But there is one set which I think embodies the Ultra Beast that is Pheromosa! The set which I personally feel pushes it over the edge is Quiver Dance. Not to brag, but I knew that this set would be good despite the mass claims that it would have no ability to ever set up to which I replied that it could simply set up once it forces out a mon. The way to which it was exposed to the world was much greater than I could have expected. I had never considered QD in tandem with Z moves which just exacerbate the problem it provides for all teams. We already know what this set does so rather I will just post a couple replays which show how phenomenal this set is :) .

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-239674-While it only had 3 turns :P I just wanted to show how it prevented any possible way for gengar, a known offensive counter, to possibly beat it due to all the boosts it received in that one turn which allowed it to both outspeed a possible scarf Gengar and kill it with Ice beam.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-539225611 - A replay of my own.

There are many more spread throughout which showcase the effectiveness of Z Mosa: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-8-logs-replays.3592101/

So yeah those were my thoughts! Like I said these are just my opinions so if you disagree with me feel free to let me know. I do think Pheremosa going will be mostly beneficial for the progression of the meta but will impact the tier extremely especially concerning the niche some pokemon have gained due to mosa as well as the defensive cores which have stemmed from its prominence in the meta.

 

[preserve]

You're right. None of what you just said is coherent in the least. The simple fact of the matter is that the Suspect OU without Pheromosa has already shown to be much healthier and more diverse than the one with her.

It's very dangerous to state that something is more "healthier" as fact when that is a very subjective term. Honestly in my opinion a meta without Pheromosa is more simple and straightfoward than a meta without phero.

are you kidding me? so much is rendered a liability or even useless by pheromosas stupidly high offensive stats. have you played on the suspect ladder? because the proof is right there.

So is the whole lower tiers in respect to OU. If some pokes remain unviable because of some threats, then they belong in lower tiers.

I think you misunderstand the whole basis for banning. the basis for banning is not centralizing, but overcentralizing. If something is deemed overcentralizing it will be banned. The mindset doesnt call to ban something that is centralizing.

Yeah, overcentralizing is another one of those subjective terms that gets mindlessly tossed around. Unless you are using a specific pokemon or strategy that is only useful for a certain pokemon or strategy, then the centralizing should be fine and I don't think Pheromosa accomplishes this level of "overcentralization."

These arguments are extremely ridiculous when both Ubers and Anything Goes exist, I could possibly understand such a response if OU was the only possible tier people could play and when a pokemon was banned it disappeared off the face of the earth - but that simply isn't the case.

So basically Ubers and Anything Goes are there to cater to specific playing philosophy and shouldn't be applied to lower tiers?

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

It's very dangerous to state that something is more "healthier" as fact when that is a very subjective term. Honestly in my opinion a meta without Pheromosa is more simple and straightfoward than a meta without phero.

Yeah, a meta with phero is straightforward, because it fucking revolves around using phero and checking it

So is the whole lower tiers in respect to OU. If some pokes remain unviable because of some threats, then they belong in lower tiers.

This is ridiculous because we're talking about ONE threat (phero) nullifying so many otherwise great Pokemon...which is also the definition of overcentralizing.

Yeah, overcentralizing is another one of those subjective terms that gets mindlessly tossed around. Unless you are using a specific pokemon or strategy that is only useful for a certain pokemon or strategy, then the centralizing should be fine and I don't think Pheromosa accomplishes this level of "overcentralization."

Brilliant. you debate the use of a ridiculously general term, offer no evidence to back up your argument, in fact you use qualfying words such as "should" and "i don't think" because you know your argument is wack without them...and you act holier-than-thou by suggesting that we're being "mindless." Really doind wonders for your reputation, though by the looks of things you're just someone new who's looking to crusade against smogon

So basically Ubers and Anything Goes are there to cater to specific playing philosophy and shouldn't be applied to lower tiers?

As an oversimplified answer for an overly simple post, yes.

 

[JTD783]

As much as I'd like to distance myself as much as humanly possible from this thread, I want to comment on what the suspect ladder's been like since there's no other place to do so.

On my alt I'm 39-19 (58 games) with 2300 coil. Obviously that isn't sufficient for reqs but I want to get a lot of games in before I see what works and what doesn't, and then go for a better W/L ratio afterwards.

With the alt I started out with a fairly standard Mega Mawile offense and some other offense teams, as well as the standard stall team that's been used in SPL. These performed decently but I disliked how they kept losing to "random ladder shit", for lack of a better phrase. Like weird movesets/EV spreads/plays by opponents/etc. Some of the losses were just because I didn't play well enough, but others seemed to be more matchup-affected. With that I decided to take a different approach.

I tested a few Baton Pass teams and while I won more than I lost with them, I was dissatisfied with the more pronounced matchup dependent games.

Sticky Web Offense seemed like a good choice for my next test since it's been used to success in SPL and a lot of ladder teams aren't prepared for it well enough. The lack of Pheromosa on the suspect ladder is also great since it's one less hazard remover, and OU doesn't have many viable ones at the moment.

I was way more successful with webs offense than the other teams I used, but despite improving my W/L ratio a lot it wasn't enough to make up for the losses from earlier in testing. I think my W/L with webs was like 18/5, which isn't a bad place to start, especially for an average player. Matchup still existed, but webs can play around this much better than a lot of teams from my experience.

Here's the team if anyone cares. It's obviously not anything incredible but it works most of the time. Smeargle/Excadrill's sets could be altered, as well as having Mega Meta/Drill as opposed to other mons, but that's open to suggestion. Note: it gets dicked on by TR, and Mega Scizor/Ferrothorn are huge issues if Kartana and Zygarde go down early.

Hide

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Spore
- Taunt

Zygarde @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 160 HP / 216 Atk / 28 SpD / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed

Kartana @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

Mimikyu-Busted @ Lum Berry
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

 

[GH[O]ST]

So is the whole lower tiers in respect to OU. If some pokes remain unviable because of some threats, then they belong in lower tiers.




Yeah, overcentralizing is another one of those subjective terms that gets mindlessly tossed around. Unless you are using a specific pokemon or strategy that is only useful for a certain pokemon or strategy, then the centralizing should be fine and I don't think Pheromosa accomplishes this level of "overcentralization."

I think we all know this is subjective lol. There is a reason why there is a vote. In fact many suspects like the dugtrio are polarizing, highlighting the subjective nature.

The points you make in your posts can be applied to anything including something like mewtwo or primal groudon.

There are, in fact, specific strategies used to "counter" the menace that is pheromosa. Slapping toxapex on any team including offense is done mainly so you're not swept after mispredicting the pheromosa set. Staying in on pheromosa all the time even if you match up poorly just so you make sure it doesnt get a free QD is another strategy done specifically for Pheromosa. Slapping weak ass mimikyu on your team mainly so you have some insurance against pheromosa is another one. Running 2+ priority users per team despite the fact that tapu lele is common is a counter measure for pheromosa.

There are many things done specifically because pheromosa and its absurd offensive potential exist.

 

[preserve]

Yeah, a meta with phero is straightforward, because it fucking revolves around using phero and checking it

Yeah, why is checking threats that pressure teams such a bad thing?

This is ridiculous because we're talking about ONE threat (phero) nullifying so many otherwise great Pokemon...which is also the definition of overcentralizing.

Great is only as good as the pokemon it competes with. I'm sure Darmanintan would be great if you got rid of all the pokemon that holds it back.

Brilliant. you debate the use of a ridiculously general term, offer no evidence to back up your argument, in fact you use qualfying words such as "should" and "i don't think" because you know your argument is wack without them...and you act holier-than-thou by suggesting that we're being "mindless."

I use the terms should and I don't think because it's an opinion. Way's to check pheromosa are priority: water shuriken, bp, extreme speed, and few bulky resist all of which are viable even without pheromosa.

 

[SageOfStone]

Shurtugal made the single most intelligent post in this entire thread (and I've read the entire shitstorm).

I'm a pretty old timey battler and most of my experience comes from Gen IV, though I've been playing a good bit of SuMoU lately.

I could repeat everybody and say that phero is OP because of all of its unpredictability, but I'd rather address something people seem to dismiss.

The Pheromosa set I find myself using the most is actually the Physical Offensive Pivot. Of course, this set does have its checks, but I find that its way too giving. I'm used to using pivots (hundreds of hours of laddering with pivot cores in Gen IV). Jumping head first into this generation with all these crazy new pivot options has made everything feel a bit easy.

Just like any other cleaner, you have to take out or weaken POP Mosa checks. I've found that to be much easier than most cleaners. Mosa comes in earlier than any cleaner I've ever used and begins doing its job. Being the fastest pokemon in the tier would be one thing, but being the fastest pokemon and the fastest pivot is another. Yes, you can prepare for this set relatively easily, and if you can outplay your opponent well enough, you can shut it down. But this set is the reason why Quiver Dance and Z-Whatever do what they do. People have to be able to stop the POP set, and doing so makes them vulnerable to the other sets. Of course it works in reverse too. You prepare too much for special Mosa sets and you become more vulnerable to physical sets.

Honestly, I had been hoping for the ban since Aegislash left the tier. It was unhealthy then, now its just gotten worse.

I sadly don't have time to get reqs, but I'd be (obviously) in favor of banning the bug.

 

[GoldDraconian]

Probably shouldn't wade into this, particularly given that my voice has no weight, but...

I think the people objecting to the suspect process have some validity. You can say all you want there's no echo chamber but it's hard to really believe that's the case when people who make tiering decisions or have a voice in the community all seem to agree on every decision. If every question is so straightforward that every badged user agrees then why have a suspect process at all? Clearly nobody intelligent would ever disagree. (Or there's some variation of an echo chamber going on and there's only one acceptable answer, so that's the one everyone adopts.)
I actually appreciate that the council has tried giving their input on this suspect test in terms of their dispositions and reasoning, but at least in this case it furthers the perception that the process is really about trying to persuade/strongarm users into making the "approved" voting decision. I don't think that was the intention, but it gives that appearance to people who are inclined to think that's true.

While recognizing that the council has an impossible task in trying to balance Pokemon, and with due respect to them as they invest their time into doing so, ultimately every tiering decision is a matter of trying to rule on what some subset of people subjectively consider to be fun. The complete lack of objective criteria makes it a really ugly process in a lot of ways. As an old fogey I remember Garchomp being banned from Gen 4, maybe the first non-trivial ban decision in OU history- that one happened because he hit >50% usage on the ladder and people were running basically unplayable pokes to try to answer it. I know it's probably impossible to establish clear benchmarks to define ban-worthiness, but it sure would be nice if there were something tangible to point to when trying to make those calls.

 

[WebBowser]

GoldDraconian If you want to see people disagreeing on stuff, I highly, highly suggest you pull up the Dugtrio suspect archive (should be somewhere on the first two pages on this forum). In there you will find substantial disagreement on what dugtrio did, how well he did it, what teams he worked/didn't work in, and, well, pretty much anything and everything that wasn't "he's a fast, frail ground-type with arena trap". Just because you see unity on this particular suspect does not mean that the community or even the council is always this unified.

 

[SageOfStone]

GoldDraconian

Honestly, Smogon has gotten way better about their due process lately. These suspects are a very healthy and giving process. Personally, I could (and did) contest the bans of Garchomp, Salamence and Latias back in Gen IV. Those were super divided bans that shook the format. The only saving grace of it all was that eventually the post ban metagame shaped up to be really good again.

These suspect tests are much more fair. We actually get to test and see what the format will look like if we choose to ban a pokemon. Yes, the tiering council gives their take on it, but the point of these tests is to allow the players to try it and make a decision for themselves. It was pretty interesting to see the entire council agree this time, but in other tests not involving such an obviously slanted and format warping pokemon, I guarantee there will be disagreements amongst the council.

And there has been a lot of disagreement here amongst the users. The thing is that pretty much everybody has experienced Pheromosa's negative impact in some way or another. People have been arguing about why the bug should be banned, not whether or not it should be banned.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I will never understand how when a vast majority of people come to agree on something being "broken", "Noncompetitive", both, or neither it is amounted to being an "echo chamber". Why is it such a foreign idea that maybe, just maybe, this thing is actually those categories? Now, of course it will happen sometimes, but I would say, more often than not, it's more so that the 'mon fits whatever it is being called.

I feel like calling things "echo chambers" tries to make it seem like the members making up the majority are just jumping on board for the sake of jumping on board, in a feeble attempt to invalidate what people say simply because they disagree with it. When you chalk every pro/anti-ban statement up to "bandwagoning" or being an "echo chamber", you then can go about dismissing it. It happens all the time, even outside of suspects. It's a moot point honestly, and I don't see anything happening, and I don't think anything should. Welcome to an open community where things like this happen.

It's so easy to sit on the outside and critique the process when there is no real way to ban things on objectivity. We can talk hypotheticals all day, but seeing things on paper, and in action are two different things. Sorry. This comes up damn near every freaking suspect (hell, even I brought it up a few years ago) and, after years of working out just fine, it has not changed.

The fact that we're sitting here taking up space on the culture of suspects and not the Pokemon in question goes to show where we stand on this 'mon.

 

[Finchinator]

There will be a suspect tour held in an hour and ten minutes on SmogTours! In addition, there will be another one held exactly two days later. Good luck to everyone who wishes to participate.

 

[jordanthejq12]

The fact that we're sitting here taking up space on the culture of suspects and not the Pokemon in question goes to show where we stand on this 'mon.

Just want to emphasize this point. The fact that ban opponents have resorted to calling Smogon a echo chamber of stall-loving elitist jerks (and I should note that suspect threads are beacons of civility compared to, say, YouTube comment sections), and seemingly cannot actually say that Pheromosa is not broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive, is clear evidence of what needs to be done.

To me, it speaks even more so than +1 Breakneck Blitz OHKOing Toxapex after a sliver of chip damage, or the possibility of it being Specs or QD (+ Z-Focus Blast or Z-Hyper Beam) or still a physical set, or Beast Boost being a speed or attack boost and either potentially snowballing a team with ease, or certain teams auto-losing without a means of stopping it. None of this, you notice, can be denied. The only constructive argument has been what exactly pushed it over the edge.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

Uhm, hai! ( ^ . ^ ) This is my first post ever on a SM suspect thread, so I'm pretty new here :X

I'm typically known as an extremely anti-ban voter. For reference, the only Pokemon bans I've agreed to back in XY/ORAS were Mega Lucario and Aegislash, and I've participated in every single OU suspect test. However, Pheromosa is one of these suspect tests where I'll undoubtedly be voting BAN on.

Pheromosa is both incredibly broken (probably the second mon in terms of pure brokenness behind Mega Metagross) and unhealthy for the current metagame. The main factor in why I'm going to vote ban is its blatant negative restrictions it causes when building offensive teams. There practically are 0 pheromosa switch ins on offense, unless you're using Marowak-alola, which is SR weak and can be easily pressured, or the rare and extremely niche Mimikyu. Now, having 0 switch ins to a pokemon when you're using offense isn't a broken trait at all, otherwise there would be a whole list of hard hitters that would be deemed broken, such as Hoopa-U, Kyurem-B, Tapu Lele, etc.. What differentiates Pheromosa from these other hard hitters that have no switch ins on offense is the fact that it outspeeds literally everything in the tier, and OHKOes most offensive mons with just the slightest bit of prior damage. When you're as fast as Pheromosa AND have an extremely limited number of switch ins, then thats when things start becoming problematic... Now, the one aspect that pushes Pheromosa over the edge even further vs offensive teams is the fact that it can indirectly boost its speed without even needing a free turn of set up, it gets a kill AND boosts speed at once which is the most fucking broken thing. It's not a question of "okay Pheromosa outspeeds and kills everything at +1 speed better not let it set up!" It doesnt need to set up because it can just kill you while getting speed simultaneously. This just invalidates all the speed control opposing offense has a large majority of the time. pure offense is helpless once Pheromosa gets even just one speed boost and starts killing everything one by one. Beast boost makes Pheromosa immune to scarfers (it outspeeds and ohkoes literally every single common scarfer at +1 spe except Gengar, which dies to LO ice beam after 2 rounds of SR damage which isnt hard to get at all), laughs at rain offense spammed with drizzle abusers since it outpaces all of them even under rain at +1, and is even faster than Excadrill under sand. People already considered Mega Lopunny difficult to manage with offense in ORAS, Pheromosa is essentially just a Mega Lopunny on steriods. This leaves priority as one of the very few options offense has dealing with Pheromosa, but Pheromosa lives the vast majority of them, and if your opponent is using a Tapu lele + Pheromosa core, this isn't exactly a very reliable option either.

Pheromosa's combination of high attacking stats on both ends of the spectrum, ability to abuse a whole multitude of items, and deep movepool (literally i don't understand why some people describe Pheromosa's movepool as "poor", even if it got literally every move in the game it would still use the moves given to it now because its really all it needs) make it an unpredictable, powerful threat vs even bulkier builds as well. With both high powered physical and special attacks, it is risky as hell to try "scouting" its set because if you make even one wrong prediction that usually equates to a dead or severely weakened mon on your end since Z-Focus blast/HJK are absurd switching in on. Not to mention, even with the few number of checks it has, these checks can STILL lose depending on the pheromosa set because of how versatile it is. Usually people think packing a Tapu Fini is sufficient enough vs it but LO Poison jab is a straight 2HKO, Mega Venu is hard pressed tanking u turns again and again and QD versions just blast right past it. Mega Sab can attempt to spin block but gets 2hkoed by LO bug buzz. The Pokemon people really rely on the most vs Pheromosa at least from what I've experienced is Toxapex. Now, even when ignoring the fact that +1 z-hyper beam can OHKO it with some slight prior damage, Toxapex is far from hard to switch into, and if its a u turning Pheromosa the Toxapex switch in is easily telegraphed and they can abuse your switch in with a free switch in of their own. What are Phero's most common partners? Mega Metagross, Tapu Lele, offensive Landorus-T, Tapu Koko, other offensive mons like those... and those all just shit on Toxapex and other common similar bulky mons. Comparing Pheromosa's u turn to other u turn users is ridiculous, because 1) Pheromosa's u turn hits significantly harder than every other u turn out there 2) Pheromosa is faster than all the other u turners so there is less risk involved when using it, and 3) Pheromosa's attack stats and movepool means its able to threaten a wiiiiiiide array of Pokemon to the point where if they don't switch and you actually click the appropriate move, they'll get OHKOed just because they decided to risk you going for the "safe" u turn.

- Pheromosa's combination of high attacking stats on both end of the offensive spectrum, AND highest speed in the tier and being able to boost this without even having to set up means its able to outpace and OHKO the vast majority of mons found on offensive teams while practically being immune to revenge killing.
- Pheromosa's ridiculous movepool and its ability to use an abundance of items combined with its overall versatility means switching into it is quite hard even when using a bulky team, since its equipped with tools that can let it break past even designated checks, or at the very worst, u turn out of your switch to regain momentum.
- Building with Pheromosa in the tier is insanity. No matter what type of team archetype you're using there is no doubt Pheromosa will be one of your biggest concerns even when you have multiple checks to it. This is especially true on offense teams, and Pheromosa is probably the biggest contributing factor in why people just blindly spam Toxapex on bulky offense and balance teams even though Toxapex invites so many other dangerous mons in for free.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-541666682 me using Pheromosa 6-0ing a team consisting of Toxapex, Shedinja, and Sableye in high ladder. 'twas ez cuz phero 2 OP

BAN Pheromosa ~

<3