Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

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Aberforth

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And yes, Metagross's moveset can be judged by what the rest of the team around it is, but that is not a negative aspect of Metagross, it just means it can customise its own checks and counters to fit what the team can and cannot cover. But when it comes to predicting and playing around it, in the example you gave, first of all if you get the prediction wrong, ever, Metagross chunks a massive hole out of one of your pokemon, and not only that there is nothing preventing it from just switching out and coming back in again ad nauseam until your switch-ins for it no longer are. Especially since one of them (Lando) has no recovery whatsoever, and Tran has to rely on lefties.

But nobody is saying it is impossible to handle. If it was impossible, it would have just been quickbanned. What we're wanting to determine is if the amount of counterplay that exists (and is not a massive hindrance to teambuilding) is prevalent enough to vote to keep Metagross in the tier. I personally do not think it does due to real game scenarios where checks are much easier to wear down than Metagross is, and when the risk-reward of Metagross is favouring Metagross as much as it is.
 
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I agree with the above post.

Mega Metagross is so a low risk-high reward pokemon, that it centralises the metagame to the point:
(1) You need specific check/counter for the specific coverage Metagross runs;
(2) They need to arrive healthy if they want to proporly check Mega Metagross ===> Mega Robot pressures the opponent to play conservatively when facing it, not to mention that 20% chance to get a flinch from Zen Headbutt or a +1 Atk boost from Meteor Mash spam.

There are different problems with some so-called checks:
* Rocky Helmet Landorus-T has to give up Leftovers for longevity, Scarf for Spe or LO for extra power and is weak 4x to Ice Punch;
* Rocky Helmet Rotom-W has to give up Scarf for Spe or Leftovers for longevity and, even with Leftovers, the washing machine is easily pressured and worn down;
* Garchomp is weak 4x to Ice and outsped if not holding a Scarf;
* Mandibuzz needs a +1 Atk Mega Metagross if it wants to OHKO with Foul Play after taking a ton from a +1 Atk Mega Robot;
* Rocky Helmet Tangrowth is one of the best RH users because it has reliable recovery. Despite this, it drops Assault Vest in order to use RH + Sleep Powder, a status move which fails a quarter of the time;
* Toxapex is easily 3HKOed by Earthquake and Thunderpunch; Zen Headbutt cleanly 2HKOes it and OHKO 87,5% of the time with Psychic Terrain. Toxapex needs 2 Scalds to break through Mega Metagross Substitute;
* Ferrothorn is dealt very well with Hammer Arm (if you really don't have other ways to break this wall; Fire and Fighting coverage is really easy to have);
* Scizor let you choose another Mega not named Mega Metagross, but its Spe leaves it prone to be switched out rather easily;
* Dugtrio. Oh, wait, we need to use a suspected pokemon (that almost got banned!) with a Groundium-Z or a Choice Band to OHKO Mega Metagross;
* Magnezone, while being a good MMetagross trapper, can be also a nice teammate to deal with: Celesteela, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor (before U-Turning out)...bar Heatran;
* Heatran is dealt with Earthquake of Hammer Harm, but if you don't run them, keep in mind that this Fire type doesn't have reliable recovery and is easily checked/countered.

Problem is: While I'm scouting the opponent's Mega Robot, I'm able to not have my team worn down to the point I'll lose anyway?
If I guess wrong about the coverage of Mega Robot, I'll have another proper check/counter to use later in the game?

===> Ban Mega Metagross.
 
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Colonel M

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when you say u can muscle past scizor with mash raise... that just shows that u have to rely on pure luck... thats not skill based playing. thats just hoping rng goes in your favor.. plus u have to hit each and every single mash and hope for the 20% chance of the boost.. hax shouldnt be something to be considered in a suspect.
First, it's not that unreasonable to do. Prior to Scizor Mega Evolving it will take a decent chunk from Meteor Mash (and definitely Hammer Arm) and is thus forced to Roost. While the chances of a miss exists, an Attack boost is very possible in that scenario and Metagross can do it freely. Forcing Mega Scizor to Roost gives momentum in favor of the Metagross player as they can respond with dangerous switch-ins such as Volcarona, Heatran, or Magnezone to trap Mega Scizor or put the opponent in dire straights. Since Mega Scizor lacks any offense it relies on U-turn or getting the switch correctly in response to Mega Metagross. No Mega Scizor worth their salt prior to the suspect run Swords Dance and Defog is vital for some teams to use Pursuit. Burned Mega Scizors are even better because they passively take more damage and do less in return to Mega Metagross. Fishing sounds dumb, but there are optimal times to do so and there are even times where the player has no choice (i.e. down too many Pokemon to switch out Mega Metagross). In scenarios such as this regardless of "hax" or "probability" the advantage is towards the offensive Pokemon, Mega Metagross, as Mega Scizor must either remain very healthy to continuously check Mega Metagross or have fodder / double switch properly / Volt Switch / U-turn support ready to safely switch Mega Scizor in (this is assuming Volt Switch or U-turn is used when Mega Metagross switches in and not when it attacks).

Secondly, "hax" has definitely been a major part in a suspect before, though I prefer to call it probability in the events of Shaymin-S. Shaymin-S was a Pokemon suspected 3 times (twice in DPP and once in early BW) and all times given the boot due to Seed Flare's ridiculous chance of a Special Defense drop and Air Slash's high flinch chance in combination with Shaymin-S's high Speed and Serene Grace.
 
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Martin

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I like how people are using meteor mash raises as a way to beat mega meta's counter, but they never once talk about how even thought meteor mash can raise your attack it can also miss. So yeah why not mention missed if you're gonna mention attack raises
While the chances of a miss exists, an Attack boost is very possible in that scenario and Metagross can do it freely.
---

It shouldn't really matter how many mentioned it; someone did bring it up, and it isn't even really of much consequence at all regardless because it still comes down to the fact that the option of fishing is still open here and the advantage is still in the hands of the Metagross player when you get to a position where Mega Scizor's only means of beating it is spamming Roost. If it misses then it just switches out and the game continues as normal; if it doesn't and Metagross gets a boost, the Scizor player is in a significantly worse position and is much harder pressed to actually beat the Metagross. The point that is being brought up with the attack boost argument is that the option is open to cheese these things and that there isn't really much in the way of drawbacks for doing this beyond a miss rate which is mostly inconcequential in the scenario which is being brought up.
 
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BReady

Banned deucer.
hello pals i wanted to post my thoughts on this suspect test as i didn't post anything on page 1

i think the current meta is ill prepared for a pokemon like metagross for a number of reasons. metagross is without a doubt one of the best pokemon in the tier and poses a threat to almost every single team in the meta and most people's choice of counterplay such as scizor is now easy to circumvent as hp fire is finding it's way onto different metagross sets and is a legitimately viable option. there are few good answers to dealing with metagross to begin with and another issue that i haven't seen adressed that much is that a good majority of the moves found on metagross have secondary effects that end up really punishing the opponent to where prediction isn't even that important. it's incredibly easy to spam meteor mash vs most teams as landorus-t / ferrothorn / helmet tangrowth are the only things that can switch in and apply some sort of damage thanks to helmet / barbs, although landorus-t and ferrothorn wont stay in for fear of ice punch and hammer arm respectively. when metagross inevitably gets +1 attack vs these more bulkier offensive teams it has no problem breaking holes and getting at least one kill before the inevitable scarfchomp which btw is a roll to ko metagross with eq when factorin gin rough skin or their ash greninja or whatever. zen headbutt comes with flinch chance which makes it easy to muscle past mons like rotom and when its paired with lele, if sr is up, its incredible tough to beat as it does something crazy like 35% to scizor so you just flinch through that as well. thunder punch and ice punch come with their own hax chances as well so without running helmet on like every pokemon metagross is free to spam its moves and fish for whatever and more often than not it will end up having an affect on the game.

metagross puts a heavy restriction on teambuilding in the meta and the most frustrating aspect is that metagross itself needs very little support from its teammates barring maybe hazard removal. every single tapu aids it, with lele and koko boosting its moves, bulu applying recovery, and fini protecting from any scald burns and paralysis. i'm not going to address some of the other more known stuff such as the immediate speed boost and the lack of counters coming over from gen 6 bc everyone knows that but i do want to bring up the dumbass reasoning of "metagross has 4mss so it's really not that good" just because metagross has more than 4 viable moves doesn't mean it doesn't function properly with only four. all metagross truly needs is meteor mash / hammer arm or eq / and then coverage options depending on the team. i'm really not sure when this mentality of having a lot of moves to pick from and not being able to fit them all on one set meant a mon was bad, bc what it really means is that without absolutely flawless play you could lose something that you needed tin your game to one of its coverage moves because scouting for everytihng vs mmetal isn't realistic and like i said earlier with all the secondary effects of its moves, you also risk getting punished via hax.




this is something i also wanted to address because i don't think i can disgaree more with this. it doesn't matter if you know what metagross is clicking 90% of the time if its clicking meteor mash and getting +1 or hitting the appropriate coverage move which it is fine to do vs most because its natural bulk and immediate threat level mean you can't just keep most pokemon in on it. metagross doesn't require you to play linearly and it is not out here rewarding proactive play either when it's legitimately a fine play to just spam mash and fish. even on turns when it's a "prediction" it really never is because the meta user loses nothing from clicking mash and fishing unless they have something to actively punish that. it wouldn't be a big deal if metagross didn't have tough claws and 389 attack as well as 2hkoing almost everything but that IS the case.


Taking hax into account in pokemon is a piss-poor way to argue this issue. Plenty of mons hax in ou. The equivilent to this would be like taking critical hits into account with each move, which is simply ridiculous. Metagrosses main 3 attacks in meteor mash, hammer arm and zen headbutt have a chance to miss. There is defintely a difference between a mon being really good and broken. No ban
 
I like how people are using meteor mash raises as a way to beat mega meta's counter, but they never once talk about how even thought meteor mash can raise your attack it can also miss. So yeah why not mention missed if you're gonna mention attack raises
This is a terrible argument. Going "I have a 10% chance to win if Gross misses!" does not make Gross suddenly balanced, and 10% is very small. So unless you want to lose 90% of games, you have to do better preparation than rely on a miss. Does the miss chance make preparation any easier? No. Also Gross can run Iron Head and go for flinch hax if it's that worried about missing, but it doesn't because having higher base power and the chance to boost attack outweighs the 10% miss chance.

Edit @ Below: They're not, but it's very unlikely that they are relying on that 20% and have no other way to break the MMeta "counter". The point is it gets a bonus chance to screw over the opp by using it's most spammable move, which invalidates the opps preparation. People don't go "Oh I'm prepared for Tang because MMeta has a 20% chance to get an attack boost and kill it", that's just a convienient bonus which allows MMeta to break through the things that should counter it but end up not doing in practice.
 
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This is a terrible argument. Going "I have a 10% chance to win if Gross misses!" does not make Gross suddenly balanced, and 10% is very small. So unless you want to lose 90% of games, you have to do better preparation than rely on a miss. Does the miss chance make preparation any easier? No. Also Gross can run Iron Head and go for flinch hax if it's that worried about missing, but it doesn't because having higher base power and the chance to boost attack outweighs the 10% miss chance.
With your logic then people relying on attack raises aren't well prepared enough either since they need a 20% chance to break through
 
Taking hax into account in pokemon is a piss-poor way to argue this issue. Plenty of mons hax in ou. The equivilent to this would be like taking critical hits into account with each move, which is simply ridiculous. Metagrosses main 3 attacks in meteor mash, hammer arm and zen headbutt have a chance to miss. There is defintely a difference between a mon being really good and broken. No ban
No one is taking into account hax in every single calc, which is what you imply here. The argument being made is that Metagross can "fish" for attack raises with Meteor Mash and get past a lot of its checks if the user gets lucky, making them not really as reliable as they seem. Yes the move can miss, but if it does the metagross user is barely punished; they can just switch out if it's something like mega scizor spamming roost and then come back in again later on something else and present the same problem. Meanwhile, if the Mega Metagross user does happen to get the attack raise, then it immediately becomes incredibly threatening and the opponent's mega metagross check is no longer a check. That's why spamming mash is such a low risk high reward play.
 
The thing about metagross and raises.. it happens and its the only thing separating your check from becoming a sack, so theres that, switching anything in on a metagross is a bet, like switching in a bulu on a suicune, you are betting on no burn, but if it happens? The thing is cune is passive, 99% of time has 1 atacking move and you can still plop it offensivly by SDing up, which does not happen vs meta raises
 
think in my mind, the worst thing about mega metagross is how hard it is to have one single dedicated check to it outside of sciz or defensive tang. Sure others exist, but a lot of them such as alomamola or slowbro aren’t exactly super great right now. Two or three checks can be sufficient, but it often takes a lot of scouting to take on, and by the time you’ve figured out what coverage it’s running it could’ve cleaned up half your team. Metagross is a big strain on options, especially since its best counter is a mega.


The other thing I’ve been thinking about is the potential effect of a Metagross ban. Now this isn’t so much of a direct reason to ban it, but it’s definitely something to chew on. Overall, I think a metagross ban would be a huge relief for team variety. It often feels like you have 3-4 choices for a mega: Metagross, the metagross check (Sciz), medicham, and maybe mawile. Plus without the need to run multiple checks to metagross, there will be more freedom in general. For example, you won’t have to run defensive tangrowth to check metagross so you can more freely choose AV.


SuMo has been very fun so far, and I’d love to see some other mons shine. Maybe things will change for metagross in the future, but as of now I feel a ban would overall be a good thing for OU.
 
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I agree with the above post.

Mega Metagross is so a low risk-high reward pokemon, that it centralises the metagame to the point:
(1) You need specific check/counter for the specific coverage Metagross runs;
(2) They need to arrive healthy if they want to proporly check Mega Metagross ===> Mega Robot pressures the opponent to play conservatively when facing it, not to mention that 20% chance to get a flinch from Zen Headbutt or a +1 Atk boost from Meteor Mash spam.

There are different problems with some so-called checks:
* Rocky Helmet Landorus-T has to give up Leftovers for longevity, Scarf for Spe or LO for extra power and is weak 4x to Ice Punch;
* Rocky Helmet Rotom-W has to give up Scarf for Spe or Leftovers for longevity and, even with Leftovers, the washing machine is easily pressured and worn down;
* Garchomp is weak 4x to Ice and outsped if not holding a Scarf;
* Mandibuzz needs a +1 Atk Mega Metagross if it wants to OHKO with Foul Play after taking a ton from a +1 Atk Mega Robot;
* Rocky Helmet Tangrowth is one of the best RH users because it has reliable recovery. Despite this, it drops Assault Vest in order to use RH + Sleep Powder, a status move which fails a quarter of the time;
* Toxapex is easily 3HKOed by Earthquake and Thunderpunch; Zen Headbutt cleanly 2HKOes it and OHKO 87,5% of the time with Psychic Terrain. Toxapex needs 2 Scalds to break through Mega Metagross Substitute;
* Ferrothorn is dealt very well with Hammer Arm (if you really don't have other ways to break this wall; Fire and Fighting coverage is really easy to have);
* Scizor let you choose another Mega not named Mega Metagross, but its Spe leaves it prone to be switched out rather easily;
* Dugtrio. Oh, wait, we need to use a suspected pokemon (that almost got banned!) with a Groundium-Z or a Choice Band to OHKO Mega Metagross;
* Magnezone, while being a good MMetagross trapper, can be also a nice teammate to deal with: Celesteela, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor (before U-Turning out)...bar Heatran;
* Heatran is dealt with Earthquake of Hammer Harm, but if you don't run them, keep in mind that this Fire type doesn't have reliable recovery and is easily checked/countered.

Problem is: While I'm scouting the opponent's Mega Robot, I'm able to not have my team worn down to the point I'll lose anyway?
If I guess wrong about the coverage of Mega Robot, I'll have another proper check/counter to use later in the game?

===> Ban Mega Metagross.
Ok heres the thing, lando has been using helmet since oras... so if anything oras is the meta thats changed lando from lefties to metagross.. so dont blame gross for helmet lando... 2nd helmet tangrowth and av trangrowth depends on how weak your team is to certain pokemon aka ash gren/koko etc.. av tangrowth is not a switch into protean gren anyways.... but if u have checks to ash gren on ur team u can run helmet on tangrowth... so again as i said its not metagross alone thats causing users to run specific moves and items on mons... its a whole bunch of other mons on the tier.. but yet in every suspect "this pokemon restricts teambuilding".... and yet after every ban ppl run the exact same mons on their teams...

First, it's not that unreasonable to do. Prior to Scizor Mega Evolving it will take a decent chunk from Meteor Mash (and definitely Hammer Arm) and is thus forced to Roost. While the chances of a miss exists, an Attack boost is very possible in that scenario and Metagross can do it freely. Forcing Mega Scizor to Roost gives momentum in favor of the Metagross player as they can respond with dangerous switch-ins such as Volcarona, Heatran, or Magnezone to trap Mega Scizor or put the opponent in dire straights. Since Mega Scizor lacks any offense it relies on U-turn or getting the switch correctly in response to Mega Metagross. No Mega Scizor worth their salt prior to the suspect run Swords Dance and Defog is vital for some teams to use Pursuit. Burned Mega Scizors are even better because they passively take more damage and do less in return to Mega Metagross. Fishing sounds dumb, but there are optimal times to do so and there are even times where the player has no choice (i.e. down too many Pokemon to switch out Mega Metagross). In scenarios such as this regardless of "hax" or "probability" the advantage is towards the offensive Pokemon, Mega Metagross, as Mega Scizor must either remain very healthy to continuously check Mega Metagross or have fodder / double switch properly / Volt Switch / U-turn support ready to safely switch Mega Scizor in (this is assuming Volt Switch or U-turn is used when Mega Metagross switches in and not when it attacks).

Secondly, "hax" has definitely been a major part in a suspect before, though I prefer to call it probability in the events of Shaymin-S. Shaymin-S was a Pokemon suspected 3 times (twice in DPP and once in early BW) and all times given the boot due to Seed Flare's ridiculous chance of a Special Defense drop and Air Slash's high flinch chance in combination with Shaymin-S's high Speed and Serene Grace.
Yes it does force the roost giving your opponent the free switch... magnezone pairs well with gross even in oras.. trapped scizor skarm and ferro in oras.... shaymin s is different because it has serene grace which increases the probability of seed flare and flinch everything... but gross has a much lower chance compared to shaymin so its not a fair comparison to make....
 
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6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
It shouldn't really matter how many mentioned it; someone did bring it up, and it isn't even really of much consequence at all regardless because it still comes down to the fact that the option of fishing is still open here and the advantage is still in the hands of the Metagross player when you get to a position where Mega Scizor's only means of beating it is spamming Roost. If it misses then it just switches out and the game continues as normal; if it doesn't and Metagross gets a boost, the Scizor player is in a significantly worse position and is much harder pressed to actually beat the Metagross. The point that is being brought up with the attack boost argument is that the option is open to cheese these things and that there isn't really much in the way of drawbacks for doing this beyond a miss rate which is mostly inconcequential in the scenario which is being brought up.
I agree with this. If I'm not mistaken, I caught wind of a few people on the ORAS Gren suspect thread trying to argue a case for Gunk Shot's 30% chance to miss, but was ultimately deemed irrelevant (both in consensus opinion and ban percentage).

From here out, I think the 'miss chance' argument shouldn't be bought up, if the reward of the move is equal or higher then the risk (the risk in this case being the miss chance). MGross Meteor Mash & Gren Gunk Shot are two examples of this ofc.
 
4mss doesnt really exist. every single pokemon caters its set to fit its team. it's a stupid term that is thrown around on every single suspect thread but honestly u either feel "it has 4mss it will always have a check on the other team" or "it doesnt have 4mss it caters its set to fit its team" depending on which side of the argument u are on.

can we never use this term again for any suspect ever pls
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
4mss doesnt really exist. every single pokemon caters its set to fit its team. it's a stupid term that is thrown around on every single suspect thread but honestly u either feel "it has 4mss it will always have a check on the other team" or "it doesnt have 4mss it caters its set to fit its team" depending on which side of the argument u are on.

can we never use this term again for any suspect ever pls
I wouldn't say it 'doesn't exist', but there are definitely misconceptions regarding it (such as the fact that MGross can still fulfill it's offensive task in 4 moveslots, whereas something like Hoopa-U/Gren/certain Deo forms etc. can't (Don't quote me on those examples)). I also believe that 4MSS is both a blessing and a curse, and this varies on the mon.

Tl;dr: MGross doesn't have 4MSS.
 
Taking hax into account in pokemon is a piss-poor way to argue this issue. Plenty of mons hax in ou. The equivilent to this would be like taking critical hits into account with each move, which is simply ridiculous. Metagrosses main 3 attacks in meteor mash, hammer arm and zen headbutt have a chance to miss. There is defintely a difference between a mon being really good and broken. No ban
how is this a bad argument? No one talks about crits because that's a game mechanic that neither player actively fishes for; However, the Metagross player has a way to actively hax through all it's counters and can do so pretty often. Scizor and Bronzong w/ raises, Rotom with flinches, Skarmory with paras. If you miss vs Scizor the most that will happen is they uturn out for a bit of chip lol. If you miss vs Rotom you are probably fishing for the flinch b/c you're in a bad position, in this case, the miss is negligible. If you miss Arm vs Ferro or Tran you're getting leeched or taking damage, which still isn't so bad.
 
how is this a bad argument? No one talks about crits because that's a game mechanic that neither player actively fishes for; However, the Metagross player has a way to actively hax through all it's counters and can do so pretty often. Scizor and Bronzong w/ raises, Rotom with flinches, Skarmory with paras. If you miss vs Scizor the most that will happen is they uturn out for a bit of chip lol. If you miss vs Rotom you are probably fishing for the flinch b/c you're in a bad position, in this case, the miss is negligible. If you miss Arm vs Ferro or Tran you're getting leeched or taking damage, which still isn't so bad.
yea except that the damage u take from leech into protect from ferro is still damage u need to put in range for revenging.. plus gross is forced to take iron barbs damage unless it uses eq and eq does absolutely nothing to ferro without the atk raise from mash... u-turn damage is about 27% which is a lot (from defensive scizor), your opponent can also sd into u-turn which means u are taking even more damage giving your opponent momentum at the same time... and lava plume has a 30% chance to burn as well crippling gross completely.. even if gross doesn't get burned the damage gross takes from lava plume is significant.. missing against rotom also has its consequences of either taking volt switch damage or wilo-wisp (yes wilo can miss i know) but still.... so tell me how non of these situations "aren't so bad" ?
 
yea except that the damage u take from leech into protect from ferro is still damage u need to put in range for revenging.. plus gross is forced to take iron barbs damage unless it uses eq and eq does absolutely nothing to ferro without the atk raise from mash... u-turn damage is about 27% which is a lot (from defensive scizor), your opponent can also sd into u-turn which means u are taking even more damage giving your opponent momentum at the same time... and lava plume has a 30% chance to burn as well crippling gross completely.. even if gross doesn't get burned the damage gross takes from lava plume is significant.. missing against rotom also has its consequences of either taking volt switch damage or wilo-wisp (yes wilo can miss i know) but still.... so tell me how non of these situations "aren't so bad" ?
my post was assuming that it was 6-6. If you miss a mash or arm vs something you switch out the next turn. That's just common sense. No Metagross is gonna let you leech + protect stall. No Metagross is gonna let your Scizor get to +6 for free. And they're only gonna fish for attack raises when you are forced to roost NOT TO MENTION that Scizor doesn't even run SD rn cause Defog is much more consistent.
 

pancake

movement and location
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I usually don't post in this thread because I don't like to but this mon seriously needs to go and I have a lot of issues with the dnb reasoning people are using.

There is this huge "anti-ban mindset" which is really not great for suspects. like people think that omg we banned a thing it's so bad. it's not bad. we suspect things because they are broken from an as-objective-as-possible perspective, not because we simply want to ban another thing. This is a common sentiment that I don't get at all.

Legitimately none of the no ban arguments are really real reasoning, they are things that are true for all mons. like you are saying wow mgross has bulk but it can get worn down, therefore no ban. well, so do metagross' checks and counters... I respect ABR/teal as players but my thoughts on the proactive play thing are summed up by blunder's post, it doesn't really make sense. And there's that guy that's just like "we ban only offensive things so stall will be good." lol this is the biggest amount of bullshit I've ever heard. Not only is mgross' mu vs. stall not great but also it's not like we are opposed to banning defensive threats either. Additionally there's that guy who's like "oh every mon can hax, mgross isn't broken." The point is rather, that Meteor Mash is a 0 cost play and so if you get an attack raise it can easily muscle past its checks, like what the fuck is scizor going to do to prevent you from doing that.

blunder's post is extremely intelligent and refreshing for this thread, and his post kind of summed up all of my thoughts, including my thoughts on the whole "metagross encourages proactive playing" shit. However, there is one point I want to emphasize in regards to the people that say Metagross has 4MSS.

Metagross doesn't have 4MSS. 4 Moveslot Syndrome means that the Pokemon is punished because it has say, 5 moves it really wants to run and it can't fulfill its niche to the fullest unless if it runs all of them which it can't. This is to say, Metagross has the 4-moveslot mechanism; it wishes it could run all of these coverage moves. However, it is not punished it nearly at all. The fact that you can't run mash and tpunch and ice punch and hammer arm and eq and bp and zen and hp fire isn't preventing you from fulfilling mgross' niche of being the best breaker in the tier. It is not punished at all from wanting to run these coverage moves, rather, it is rewarded because there is the threat that your mgross "counter" will not counter it at all.

ok, that's all I have to say, ban this thing please.

oh and please don't base your ban / dnb reasoning on what the metagame will look like with or without metagross, we are suspecting it because it is broken, now.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
BReady Night Train Lane

I can honestly see the 20% chance of an attack raise / flinch to be believable. However, in the context of 'fishing': 10% hax from the elemental punches... I have to question. Let me ask you this:

  • Does Volcarona fish for Fire Blast burns (or similar)?
  • Despite a small difference, what makes EP different from crits?
  • What is the value of Freeze/Parahax as opposed to flinches/+1 attack?
I'm just asking this as a recommendation of careful wording. K thanks.
 
BReady Night Train Lane

I can honestly see the 20% chance of an attack raise / flinch to be believable. However, in the context of 'fishing': 10% hax from the elemental punches... I have to question. Let me ask you this:

  • Does Volcarona fish for Fire Blast burns (or similar)?
  • Despite a small difference, what makes EP different from crits?
  • What is the value of Freeze/Parahax as opposed to flinches/+1 attack?
I'm just asking this as a recommendation of careful wording. K thanks.
So in regards to fishing, the reason why this could be brought up in the Metagross argument as opposed to something like Volcarona as you suggest is a lot of times the things brought in on Metagross aren't really doing anything back. For example, this applies to one of its best checks M-Scizor. The only thing Scizor can actually do to Metagross is like U-turn out for 20% damage since they hardly run SD anymore in favor of defog. As the Gross user, you are kind of free to just stay in and spam attacks fishing for atk raise/para/freeze. Other mons can't really do this because they are forced out easier than what Metagross would be by their checks.
 
The difference between mmeta fishing for hax and volcarona fishing for hax is that mmeta can repeatedly come in, fire off an ice punch or whatever and switch out if it doesn't freeze (or get a boost). Its bulky enough to repeatedly spam meteor mash on msciz or whatever because if it gets it mmeta can break through sciz, or at least cripple it. Volcarona simply can't do that cause rocks and also cause burning lati does nothing for volc.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
I suppose that's fair enough. Then again, Volcarona was just one hypothetical example I had, and maybe there is something far bulkier (that isn't MGross) that has B&B with a 10% 'extra effect' chance that can make my point easier to realize (Magnezone, for example).
 
I have a question, what circumstances has made Megameta overpowered this gen? At least back then I remember it staying Ou in Oras, don't know about today. Is the automatic speed tier for megas really caused it to be overpowered?
 
I have a question, what circumstances has made Megameta overpowered this gen? At least back then I remember it staying Ou in Oras, don't know about today. Is the automatic speed tier for megas really caused it to be overpowered?
Yes the speed tier, but also, many of the checks/counters Metagross had in ORAS are borderline terrible in this metagame. The addition of terrains also helped as it gives Megagross the ability to break passed its would be counters, heal up, or avoid status Then, you add all the reasons it was initially suspected and you have a far more problematic mon than it was last gen.
 
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