Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

[giovanidude]

Foremost, what is your justification for that? You can't just say "banning Metagross won't change the meta" and expect us to just agree without explaining what else exists in the metagame that makes Metagross' influence invalidated.

This is exactly the rationale we used to ban Aegislash in XY. I was a staunch opponent to that because Aegislash in OU makes the metagame incredibly stable.

Be that as it may, freeing up those mons to run other sets creates a much more diverse metagame than what we have now. The other functions for those scarfers can honestly be covered in a number of other ways; Volcarona has numerous answers, as do Koko and any of the other 110s.

C'mon--don't devolve into the "don't ban so X doesn't get broken" argument. There is no need to address this line of rhetoric any further.

Honestly, the suspect ladder is not going to be very indicative of a new metagame right now; it's what--day 3 after the removal of the single best and most centralizing Pokemon in the tier? The Aegislash suspect in XY was really similar in this respect; it took a long time for the things it held back (Fairies, and other strong wallbreakers) to reveal themselves as serious threats.

As for your argument regarding Z-Crystals: Like I said, we shouldn't accept slapping a Z-Crystal as "groundbreaking" or "profoundly creative" It's literally just giving a really strong one-time coverage move to something. Creativity should be regarded in unusual Pokemon or complete sets, not added firepower for one turn. Things like Shuca Berry + Ice Beam Tyranitar are creative, as they fill a COMPLETELY different purpose than all conventionally listed sets for Tyranitar.

I can honestly say the SuMo metagame has been one of the most uninspiring metagames I've ever seen. Innovation has largely been coverage switches from whatever "Set of the Month" exists for the top few threats (Pheromosa was probably the most indicative of this). We can do better than this.

EDIT: I forgot to address which Pokemon become better Scarfers after the ban. Latios, Lele, Jirachi, Nihilego, and Terrakion all become patently BETTER because they can better spam one or both of their STABs.

I understand where you're coming from. The thing is unlike certain mons metagross doesn't invalidate certain play styles (looking at you pheromosa and lando-I). It being gone will impact the meta but not to the extent you want. I don't understand how banning a (offensive) mon will equate to a more creative meta. Just because gross is gone doesn't mean people are going to use more obscure mons. You might end up seeing more t-tar and niheligo but the use of niche mons won't sky rocket. SM is still developing and creativity needs to develop as the meta develops. Oras was considered stale but I believe the meta developed with much more creativity with mons like Nidoking, weavile, torn-t, crawdaunt, and many more finding usage.
But basically to your point of wanting a more creative meta it takes time and metagross doesn't invalidate play styles.
If you wanna use more obscure mons you can already do that with skilled play and team building, and I agree it can be pretty fun to do so :]

Oh and also, agei was banned because it was literal cancer and forced a million 50/50s ontop of having busted offenses and typing.

 

[Sulfurian]

Just wanted to pop in and say anyone who says "ah but Meta can just hammer arm you" hammer arm is a TERRIBLE move for Megagross, as that buffed speed Stat just goes to waste and a lot of the time you are forced to switch because after KOing a wall they'll probably switch to an offensive mon and ether set up on your switch or try and knock you out.

Also, I just wanted to mention the fact that many ban posts mention that this thing hits most common mons in the meta really hard, and banning it will grant many more viable mons or sets into the tier. I feel the main problem of this meta game right now is the fact that nobody will risk running an uncommon mon (that in some cases may not be so bad, by the way) to deal with a popular threat. What does this thing do to a curse-quagsire? Or are you gonna tell me "it will have hp grass then" or what does it do against mega swampert which is coming soon?

Which is also kind of my issue with these suspect tests currently. Not ALL megas are released yet. It isn't like XY/ORAS where everything is released other than events mons. Not everything is on the table, but we have to ban things right now at this moment in a meta that can always shift and is ever changing.

 

[Leo]

Just wanted to pop in and say anyone who says "ah but Meta can just hammer arm you" hammer arm is a TERRIBLE move for Megagross, as that buffed speed Stat just goes to waste and a lot of the time you are forced to switch because after KOing a wall they'll probably switch to an offensive mon and ether set up on your switch or try and knock you out.

No, Hammer Arm is mandatory on Metagross unless you run Earthquake which is inferior in most scenarios. I would explain this if you still didn't understand after reading its analysis, which you clearly haven't read. Try not to post in these threads unless you're informed enough to make a meaningful post

 

[zbr]

hm. personally, i'm on the fence with regards to megagross (im leaning towards the ban side tho honestly) but i would like to point out a few things that i've observed not only on this thread but on the ladder itself as well.

first off, i don't think we can view megagross in a vacuum state. we have to observe it as though we are looking at team preview. megagross is a pokemon that can freely choose it's checks and counters. if your team can't deal with hippo and quag, gross can run grass knot which is tough claw boosted (56 SpA investment is required for mixed hippo iirc but the sheer presence of gk alone is enough to scare out these two walls). tpunch deals with skarm as we all know, mmash deals with shit like msab (which means you require a mega slot to deal with megagross) and can easily fish for boosts, hammer arm deals with ferro (to an extent) and p2, hp fire deals with scizor, etc etc. scizor and ferro can easily be forced to play carefully if zone is on the team, allowing the megagross more leeway to play around them and fish for boosts. megagross isn't something we go "oh it's super broken cause it sweeps everything on my team with ease" but rather we go "wow, we need to play a bit more carefully with our checks so that we don't outright lose to him". obviously that applies for any threatening mon that is A+ rank on the viability chart and above, but for megagross, it has the added benefit of resisting rocks, having excellent steel typing, strong defenses as well as the speed it needs to threaten opposing teams. megagross is something that is flexible and can be tailored to what the team lack and that, coupled with the fact that it has all the boons i mentioned previously, makes it a stellar threat in the current metagame that deserves us suspect testing it.

secondly, we need to remember that revenge killers can only achieve their job by 1. sacking a monster on your side (making you down 5-6 assuming all else constant) or 2. outplaying the megagross opponent like crazy. we can't consider plays in suspect testing because it goes both ways so we must assume that a revenge killer is brought in after a mon on your side is down. other than the fragile glass cannon dugtrio whose sole purpose is to trap grounded steels and fires, all the other revenge killers merely either force megagross out or kill megagross. assuming you've killed megagross, the only time when that would happen is when it has punched enough holes in your team to let another mon(ster) clean up, or it has done it's job in luring and killing the mon it wanted to. we can't claim that hammer arm / gk / ice punch / thunder punch / whatever the fuck else you wanna use on it is a subpar move if it does it's job of clearing out what it needs to right? therefore the conclusion we can draw here is that megagross aids its team by providing a plethora of options for them to choose from to take out threats / checks so that the rest of the team can lawnmower their way through the opposing team.

to sum it up, it's simple for us to just look at megagross and say "welp, it has ten thousand moves to choose from, it cant use all of it and it has to dedicate itself to a specific role, therefore it isn't banworthy", but we need to look into this mon deeper and think about what this mon provides for the team and how much of an asset it is on the team before we decide whether it's banworthy or not.

 

[Sulfurian]

No, Hammer Arm is mandatory on Metagross unless you run Earthquake which is inferior in most scenarios. I would explain this if you still didn't understand after reading its analysis, which you clearly haven't read. Try not to post in these threads unless you're informed enough to make a meaningful post

Well address my point then instead of brushing it off. Mega meta gross is even more of a threat this Gen because of the Mega boost, but you'll run a coverage move that completely invalids that point, which is dropping your speed.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Just wanted to pop in and say anyone who says "ah but Meta can just hammer arm you" hammer arm is a TERRIBLE move for Megagross, as that buffed speed Stat just goes to waste and a lot of the time you are forced to switch because after KOing a wall they'll probably switch to an offensive mon and ether set up on your switch or try and knock you out.

Also, I just wanted to mention the fact that many ban posts mention that this thing hits most common mons in the meta really hard, and banning it will grant many more viable mons or sets into the tier. I feel the main problem of this meta game right now is the fact that nobody will risk running an uncommon mon (that in some cases may not be so bad, by the way) to deal with a popular threat. What does this thing do to a curse-quagsire? Or are you gonna tell me "it will have hp grass then" or what does it do against mega swampert which is coming soon?

Which is also kind of my issue with these suspect tests currently. Not ALL megas are released yet. It isn't like XY/ORAS where everything is released other than events mons. Not everything is on the table, but we have to ban things right now at this moment in a meta that can always shift and is ever changing.

I'm guessing you like to play around the -1 speed that comes from Hammer Arm, thus are you suggesting that more people should exploit that?

Oh and btw MGross get's Grass Knot, which is boosted by tough claws.

 

[Leo]

Well address my point then instead of brushing it off. Mega meta gross is even more of a threat this Gen because of the Mega boost, but you'll run a coverage move that completely invalids that point, which is dropping your speed.

If you refuse to read its analysis and still try to argue against Hammer Arm idk what to tell you. Spikes are stupid right now being both relatively easy to set and hard to remove. Ferrothorn is one of the best Spikes setters alongside Gren and it finds a lot of opportunities to set up Spikes so using Earthquake instead of Hammer Arm would just give it free Spikes on it. Yes your Speed is reduced but it's worth it if you prevent Spikes and also aren't walled by it bar Ice Punch freezes

 

[Sulfurian]

I'm guessing you like to play around the -1 speed that comes from Hammer Arm, thus are you suggesting that more people should exploit that?

Oh and btw MGross get's Grass Knot, which is boosted by tough claws.

Yes, I'm suggesting that hammer arm while powerful does give gross a weakness over running earthquake as coverage. That 110 speed turn 1 is fantastic but if you do successfully bait someone into using it they are vulnerable to being outsped after that, which is something nobody could say any past suspect tests had, nothing could out speed phero and some cases duggy.

Also, I know it does get grass knot, I'm just saying what counters the common sets right now, at this very moment. Which is what this suspect test is looking at. A few posts ago someone said "well nobody runs this wall or check" well what's exactly stopping you? "Because it's not viable in this meta" well right now mega metagross has been the most common thing in this meta, and where was that mon then?

 

[Leo]

Yes, I'm suggesting that hammer arm while powerful does give gross a weakness over running earthquake as coverage. That 110 speed turn 1 is fantastic but if you do successfully bait someone into using it they are vulnerable to being outsped after that, which is something nobody could say any past suspect tests had, nothing could out speed phero and some cases duggy.

Also, I know it does get grass knot, I'm just saying what counters the common sets right now, at this very moment. Which is what this suspect test is looking at. A few posts ago someone said "well nobody runs this wall or check" well what's exactly stopping you? "Because it's not viable in this meta" well right now mega metagross has been the most common thing in this meta, and where was that mon then?

No, you said that Hammer Arm is a terrible move to run on it and that it shouldn't be considered for arguments of what it beats. You're just wrong there. It's not some niche option nobody runs like Grass Knot its even the main slash on its analysis

 

[Sulfurian]

If you refuse to read its analysis and still try to argue against Hammer Arm idk what to tell you. Spikes are stupid right now being both relatively easy to set and hard to remove. Ferrothorn is one of the best Spikes setters alongside Gren and it finds a lot of opportunities to set up Spikes so using Earthquake instead of Hammer Arm would just give it free Spikes on it. Yes your Speed is reduced but it's worth it if you prevent Spikes and also aren't walled by it bar Ice Punch freezes

But you deal with Ferro by taking heavy chip with iron barbs+rocky or risking the possible thunder wave, or being at possibly -2 speed. I'm not saying you shouldn't run hammer arm to deal with certain things per say, but more so everyone here mentions hammer arm as a coverage move without addressing the weakness of - speed, but they'll address the effect % of all of its other moves like meteor mash.

 

[Leo]

But you deal with Ferro by taking heavy chip with iron barbs+rocky or risking the possible thunder wave, or being at possibly -2 speed. I'm not saying you shouldn't run hammer arm to deal with certain things per say, but more so everyone here mentions hammer arm as a coverage move without addressing the weakness of - speed, but they'll address the effect % of all of its other moves like meteor mash.

Everyone acknowledge the Speed drop from Hammer Arm unless they're theorymoning ig but it doesn't matter because it won't prevent it from beating Ferrothorn. Your argument of the opponent being able to bait Hammer Arm and switch out to reduce its Speed doesn't consider the fact that the Metagross user could read this as well and hit something on the switch, so it's a 50-50 and doesn't mean anything against Metagross. You're also saying that you beat Ferrothorn while taking Barbs but unless you run HP Fire or try to 1v1 it with EQ you will always take Barbs, which us the point of that ability-punishing contact moves. You reduce your Speed afterwards but you just got rid of your opponent's Ferrothorn, opened a hole on its defensive backbone and prevented Spikes for the rest of the game

edit@below As I already said that scenario is a 50-50 since you obviously have a switchin for Hammer Arm. Assuming you will get it right doesn't mean much when you opponent has the same chance to get it

 

[Sulfurian]

Everyone acknowledge the Speed drop from Hammer Arm unless they're theorymoning ig but it doesn't matter because it won't prevent it from beating Ferrothorn. Your argument of the opponent being able to bait Hammer Arm and switch out to reduce its Speed doesn't consider the fact that the Metagross user could read this as well and hit something on the switch, so it's a 50-50 and doesn't mean anything against Metagross. You're also saying that you beat Ferrothorn while taking Barbs but unless you run HP Fire or try to 1v1 it with EQ you will always take Barbs, which us the point of that ability-punishing contact moves. You reduce your Speed afterwards but you just got rid of your opponent's Ferrothorn, opened a hole on its defensive backbone and prevented Spikes for the rest of the game

Yes, but most people on the ladder will definitely use hammer arm against ferro for those exact positives as you mentioned, preventing spikes and dealing massive damage to their defenses. -speed is still a weakness on something that is known for its combination of tankiness and speed. For example if I were to use ferro, bait the hammer arm and switch into a ghost type like alolan marowak, you'd much rather have EQ in that situation, but then ferro just deals with you better because of nobody running Hammer arm AND EQ.

Yes, this is all a scenario that may or may not happen. I'm just stating why hammer arm compared to all of its other coverage moves should be exploited more/mentioned.

Edit: I also want to point out that while 90% accuracy isn't that huge of a miss chance, you still do miss unless using the elemental punches/BP/or EQ. zen has a chance to flinch, mash has a chance to raise attack, but missing can be huge as well. 100% vs 90% is not big on paper but when missing can cause gross to be hit by a scald/wisp burn or paralysis it can be huge.

 

[asterat]

I'm not a particularly good player, and everything I'm going to say was probably said by someone else, but here are my two cents anyways.

Well if I do manage to get reqs (my GXE is in the toilet, but I'm still at like 2550 coil) Did not realize there was a game limit, not sure if I'll get reqs now. I'm going to vote ban. At first, I thought that removing Metagross from the ladder would result in a metagame overwhelming with Tapu Lele, but the suspect ladder didn't really show that. Other stuff that I thought could be broken was stuff like specs Keldeo, Pinsir, etc. However, none of these really seemed to be broken on the supect ladder. I was worried that Metagross was keeping the metagame balanced, and that its ban would lead to a series of bans, sort of like a chain reaction. Doesn't seem to be the case though, even Greninja is less good now because the need to kill Metagross.

Metagross is pretty much always useful, and it's such a diverse mon that it can beat pretty much any mon that tries to counter it; between paralyze/freeze from thunder punch/ice punch, meteor mash attack raises, and even zen headbutt flinches it has a way of circumventing counters under certain conditions. Furthermore, under terrain it almost always benefits in one way or another. It's really hard to remove hazards right now, so anything grounded is really susceptible to spikes wearing it down into 2HKO range. A lot of times, player with Metagross can pull doubles on switch to counter for no cost at all. While you can build teams around any mega, I think that Metagross has so many positives in the metagame that it's easy to just throw onto teams and make them better. It has a ton of power and the bulk to live pretty much any one hit except for strong special fire/dark attacks (lives earthquakes, sucker punches, etc.) Honestly, it reminds me a bit of Aegislash: it's easy to throw onto all sorts of teams at little to no cost, and it checks a ton of stuff defensively.

Unlike in ORAS, it gets the speed boost and benefits from terrains, both of which make it better than ever before. If I remember correctly, it was suspected along with Sableye early in ORAS, and got like 40% of the vote for ban. In ORAS, Scizor was actually really good, so it wasn't being run to check Metagross (I know it does more than that, but that's one of the main reasons to run Scizor.) So there was a top Metagame pokemnAlso, if Metagross was a big threat you could more or less neutralize it by smacking it with something as it mega evolved, when your pokemon is faster (think Latios, Keldeo, etc.) So even if your team was inherently weak to Metagross, you could sack something to make it go away. Also, Lopunny was there to revenge kill it, and Talonflame etc. The metagame was less friendly overall, there were also no Tapus all over the place to meteor mash.

Despite all this, it's good we're having a suspect test. I'm pretty sure Metagross will be banned, but this isn't as clear cut as Aegislash or Pheromosa. There's an argument for not banning Metagross, but unfortunately nobody is really articulating the anti ban sentiment well here.

 

[Narwhal_Narcotics]

There are plenty of viable counters in OU. If it has thunder punch, he is easily checked by ferrothorn, which also makes him easier to kill later with iron barbs. If he has earthquake, Celesteela or skarmory can easily shut him down. Hammer arm is harder to check, but after one or two speed drops, metagross loses the ability to sweep, and is much easier to kill with Pokémon that are usually outrun. Garchomp doesn't need a scarf to beat him after one hammer arm, and z-earthquake kills him, while z-fire fang nearly finishes him. Almost any prior damage allows garchomp to kill with z-fire fang. And notice, also, that none of the Pokémon I just listed are at all uncommon. All of them are very common and at least one, if not more, are seen on most people's teams.

So, yes, mega-metagross is extremely powerful in OU. Bug this is nothing new. Plenty of Pokémon dominate their tier. Most of the Mega Pokémon available in OU are powerful. Scizor, sableye, charizard, gyarados, and medicham all have a strong presence in OU. Any one of these is capable of devastating a team. Even some non-mega Pokémon are serious threats that can easily roll through a battle of left unchecked. I've won battles using metagross, but just as often I have lost battles because my opponent knew how to counter him, and did so effectively. Playing around him is something that plenty of people know how to do, and plenty of people will learn hiw to do.

Thank you for your time, sorry it was so long.

Mod Edit: Deleted first part of your post. We do not take a Pokemon's viability in Ubers into account when conducting a suspect test, so please refrain from using that as an anti ban argument.

 

[Narwhal_Narcotics]

Metagross' relevance in Ubers is not our concern as Ubers is a banlist first, and a tier second. Your understanding of what beats Metagross is also flawed as tpunch Metagross still runs Hammer Arm in most cases. scarf chomp is a roll to kill at full. If you're not scarf chomp you are getting outsped and killed by Ice Punch. No one is staying in with a -1 speed metagross after chomp comes in unless the player is in a very tight position, and under that circumstance having metagross dead is probably negligible. The most consistent Gross check is Scizor, which is getting bopped by HP Fire. No matter how many of its supposed checks are you have on the team everything is boiled down to 6v6 so we must look at it. Instead of very specific 1v1 situations that are very flawed in reasoning.

First, I do want to apologize for a bit of the confusion. On my metagross I have meteor mash, zen headbutt, earthquake, and bullet punch. I personally prefer bullet punch instead of another coverage move to pick off things that can outspeed him. I guess I just assumed that most people do this, but thinking about it now, I'm sure plenty of people run two coverage moves instead. On the topic of being useless in Uber's being irrelevant, I see your point. Too weak for Uber's doesn't mean that it isn't too strong for OU. That's fair. I will mention, however, that the most common counter I see to my metagross is not scizor, but either rotom-wash, which I assume are probably physically defensive sets, or celesteela. I'm not sure about anyone else, this is just me, but those are the most common counters to my metagross.

 

[RoyMaster4]

My opinion doesn't matter much if at all and I definitely won't be reaching reqs, but I'd like to mention at least one thing regarding Mega Metagross: Diversity.

As it stands right now, Metagross is competing for your "Mega" slot with other pokemon, including (Based on OU) Medicham, Gyarados, Pinsir, Venusaur, Scizor, Sableye, Charizard, Mawile, and Scizor, all of which are viable. Medicham is probably the biggest competitor to Metagross' playstyle, which is something to consider - if Metagross leaves, we may see *less* diversity in mega choices; with people simply swapping Metagross for Medicham instead of sometimes using one or the other. I believe policy is to look at each Pokemon individually as opposed to 'planning in advance' for another Pokemon to leave soon after - if that is the case, I feel like Metagross should stay. Of course, this may not be the case at all, since Steel STAB is very useful in the metagame... I'm not entirely sure.

Also, I know this doesn't have an impact on the current suspect, but how likely is it for something to get reintroduced into OU after being banned in the same generation? It seems like a very rare case. In this situation, there are still quite a few unreleased Megas that would have an impact on the metagame (Heracross, Gardevoir, Diancie, Lopunny, Manectric), giving Metagross even more competition for that Mega slot.

 

[snaildelagate]

The main ban argument that I've been seeing and the only big one made so far is that Mega Metagross is simply too strong for the Metagame, but I don't think Mega-Metagross is too strong for the Metagame. Mega Meta is not the best pure wallbreaker in OU right now, if we're looking at Metagross for its role purely as a wallbreaker, Mega Medicham or Mawile, SD+Z move Lando, or Banded Zygarde have fewer dedicated checks and counters in the tier than Mega Metagross. Mega Metagross's speed while certainly excellent isn't perfect and it still allows it to get Revenge Killed by a number of Scarfers, sure Scarf Chomp can't KO it outright but an offensive team using scarf chomp is usually using it plus another check and there are a number of mons who can beat a damaged Mega Metagross. There are checks and counters to Mega Metagross that exist regardless of its coverage while HP Fire Meta does annoy its most consistent counter I don't think its power is broken in the current metagame.

Where Mega Metagross is extremely good is how splashable it is. Metagross's typing and movepool allow it to fulfill a role as a wallbreaker while also forcing out other wallbreakers with its excellent speed. Its great defensive stats for such a strong wallbreaker make it hard to OHKO Mega Metagross especially on the physical side so unlike Mega Medicham its able to fulfill a role defensively as well. Mega Metagross like Lando-T is a low-risk pokemon with a, granted, oftentimes higher reward than other splashable mons like Ferrothorn or Lando-T, but I don't think that Mega Metagross has forced players to look outside the bounds of currently viable OU pokemon for a consistent counter and its not hard to pack 1 or 2 Mega Metagross checks on offensive teams such as Specs Greninja, Scarf Chomp, Duggy or Volcarona. I think Metagross is better than a lot of the other wallbreakers in the tier because of its splashability not its offensive presence.

Also can we stop it with the it benefits from all 4 terrains argument this argument is really stupid. Yes it is true it benefits from all terrains but who give a shit you aren't going to be packing more than 2 tapus on any one team simply due to their type synergies and the fact that they don't fit on every playstyle. Unlike Medicham in which Electric Terrain actually is significant since it allows its Thunder Punch to beat Mega Sableye, Metagross just hits harder under Psy and Electric Terrain. Its not that big of a deal and can fall under the category of Mega Metagross's splashibility that has been brought up above. Terrain Abuse offensive has been long dead since Terrains don't last long enough to be abusable and its extremely difficult to get your abuser in unless its Koko since none of the other tapus have pivoting moves. Who gives a shit, plently of pokemon benefit from 1 terrain or another, but terrains don't break Mega Metagross so trying to use this argument to justify a Mega Metagross ban is just as dumb as the Mega Slot argument from the anti-ban case.

I find myself agreeing with ABR's argument in the OP of this thread that I think that this suspect was a bit too hasty after the Pheromosa ban and I'd like to see a bit more developement in the OU Metagame itself before considering banning Mega Metagross so at this point I'm anti-ban: Mega Meta's extremely good but I don't think its too strong for the metagame.

 

[Toshiro46]

Yes, I'm suggesting that hammer arm while powerful does give gross a weakness over running earthquake as coverage. That 110 speed turn 1 is fantastic but if you do successfully bait someone into using it they are vulnerable to being outsped after that, which is something nobody could say any past suspect tests had, nothing could out speed phero and some cases duggy.

Also, I know it does get grass knot, I'm just saying what counters the common sets right now, at this very moment. Which is what this suspect test is looking at. A few posts ago someone said "well nobody runs this wall or check" well what's exactly stopping you? "Because it's not viable in this meta" well right now mega metagross has been the most common thing in this meta, and where was that mon then?

...You do realize that the Megagross user can switch it out, right? And that gets rid of the speed decrease?

Megagross is a breaker, which means it's coming in multiple times throughout the match. Its power is available right out of the gate. It doesn't need to stay in, unlike something like CharX because it doesn't have any boosts to lose. Switching it out after a speed decrease isn't gonna hurt you, and it's not like the things you're going to be hitting multiple times (Ferrothorn, Chansey) are going to be outspeeding you anytime soon. Most of the other stuff it hits - Kartana, Magnezone, Heatran, Bisharp, Terrakion - are taken out in one hit. Then it switches out.

 

[bludz]

I mean, Electric Terrain helps Metagross beat Skarmory so I would say that it is pretty relevant.

--

I would like to take the time to take a look at the checks and counters arguments with regards to Mega Metagross.

Let me start by saying that having no counters is certainly not enough to warrant a ban of a pokemon on its own. Several slower wallbreakers such as Hoopa-U boast virtually no safe switch in, but are clearly not broken in the metagame due to how easy it is to offensively check them. On the other hand, fast pokemon like Tapu Koko are extremely difficult to revenge kill outside of Choice Scarfers and priority, but have several defensive answers that can sit there and heal off the damage.

Clearly, Mega Metagross does not quite fall into either category, as true defensive answers to it do exist, and it can be revenge killed by faster pokemon which are not extremely uncommon. We refer to these different types of answers to a pokemon as counterplay - some combination of checks and or counters.

The issue with the counterplay to Mega Metagross is that it is very specific or requires certain conditions to function properly. First off, I think it has been thoroughly established thay while defensive counters to Metagross do exist, they suffer from a plethora of problems. Whether its a lack of general viability found in Slowbro or Hippowdon, or a missed opportunity cost of using defensive Tangrowth over AV, or even the passivity of stuff like Bronzong and Mew. In general, many of these counters are either niche or difficult to fit on teams, with the exception of very few - Scizor being the primary one. So there is a general cost of carrying one of these pokemon, a greater cost than using your average high tier pokemon (i.e. AV Tang as your Tapu Koko answer).

Now the issue with revenge killers has also been well documented to this point. Metagross is extremely difficult to OHKO at full HP or even after one round of Stealth Rock. This means that most of the revenge killers for Metagross can only KO it under the requirement of chip damage. I've been reading a lot that it is easy to get chip damage on Metagross, but I think this is missing the point. How did you achieve that chip damage? Rocky Helmet from Landorus-T or Iron Barbs from Ferrothorn are probably the most common. Yet, these pokemon are at risk when switching into Metagross. So to achieve this chip damage just to bring Metagross into KO range for your revenge killer, you may have to risk one of your pokemon fainting. More often than not this will be the case when the team lacks Rocky Helmet Tangrowth which is not a perfect counter either.

The other primary method of getting chip damage is through hazards. Metagross resists Stealth Rock, meaning that it is a rather inefficient method of accruing damage. Spikes on the other hand are excellent for this, and are admittedly very powerful in the metagame. Another way to chip Metagross is to force it in with a powerful threat such as Tapu Lele. This is certainly an effective method to damage Metagross, but then you are left with the dilemma of switching into it afterward, which is often a tall task (and why Lele + Mega Zor are often seen together). Ultimately, I will not deny that wearing down Metagross for revenge killers is not the hardest thing in the world. However, I do think it is extremely difficult to achieve without having to take a large risk (an entire pokemon, in a lot of cases) too often. Keep in mind this is all just to weaken it to revenge killing range - and a revenge kill is not guaranteed outside of Dugtrio. Not to mention the matter of how you get your revenge killer in against Metagross (usually has to be a sacrifice).

All this tends to add up to a lot of damage when a team lacks a true defensive counter to Metagross. Against offensive teams, it is almost always averaging over 100% HP damage accumulated on the other team, even if it does not achieve a KO. Also, I would like to return to the topic of Spikes. While they are a very good method of wearing down Metagross for revenge killers, there are two sides to this coin as they are also extremely effective against most of its defensive answers. Slowbro is much less reliable with Spikes up, and even Phys Def Tangrowth falls into that boat. Mega Scizor once again shines as the best answer due to its ability to eat up almost any hits and then Defog away the Spikes.

Overall, I think the counterplay to Metagross is limited in multiple aspects. Defensive answers often hem in the creativity of builders as they are forced to pick from a small list of pokemon. From a battling standpoint, players wielding offense have to take risks that are often unfavorable simply to wear down this behemoth. I personally believe these aspects combined make Mega Metagross unhealthy and broken in the current state of SM OU, and I plan to vote ban.

 

[preserve]

I mean, the fact that most of the anti-ban posts have been the stereotypical "4mss", "whittle it down", "it has checks/counters" arguments is sort of a testament on where this mon sits. The only eye rolling reasoning that hasn't been said is "but it's frail", because that doesn't apply to metagross, at least we can acknoweldge that. . .

We're not saying Megagross is impossible to remove from play, we're not saying it's impossible to switch into. Reading some of the posts here would make that abundantly clear. But I think most people read the first sentence or two and already have a response made up and ignore the rest of the post. What we are saying is that Megagross has made an enormous impact on the meta, and many of us believe that it is unhealthy. We've explained why, and yet, the main thing that seems to come up instead of legitimate arguments, is "4mss". . . F3 + 4mss shows that it was stated 22 times in the last page, 13 on page 3, 17 times on page 2, and 18 at the time of me posting this (granted, most of them are from your post). . .

How many more times do we need to talk about a mostly moot point?

You see, I don't understand what kind of meta you want. Most of the whittle down and checks/counters and other various strategies are the ways to win games, it's part of the way we play. It seems like you are against any pokemon that can put some sort of offensive pressure or is hard, but not impossible to play around. If a pokemon does this to a large degree than I can understand how it might be an issue, but meta metagross offensive pressure is as mega medicham.

 

[Night Train Lane]

The main ban argument that I've been seeing and the only big one made so far is that Mega Metagross is simply too strong for the Metagame, but I don't think Mega-Metagross is too strong for the Metagame. Mega Meta is not the best pure wallbreaker in OU right now, if we're looking at Metagross for its role purely as a wallbreaker, Mega Medicham or Mawile, SD+Z move Lando, or Banded Zygarde have fewer dedicated checks and counters in the tier than Mega Metagross.

While this is more or less true. Each of these have their own share of negatives that stop from being on the level of versatility that Metagross.

Mega Metagross's speed while certainly excellent isn't perfect and it still allows it to get Revenge Killed by a number of Scarfers, sure Scarf Chomp can't KO it outright but an offensive team using scarf chomp is usually using it plus another check and there are a number of mons who can beat a damaged Mega Metagross.

The only scarfers that have a good match up with Metagross is Garchomp and Gengar as they can both OHKO with a tiny bit of chip; However, the rest, such as Keldeo, Nihilego, Terrakion, and Lele, need a significant amount for damage already applied to consistently revenge.

There are checks and counters to Mega Metagross that exist regardless of its coverage while HP Fire Meta does annoy its most consistent counter I don't think its power is broken in the current metagame.

That statement contradicts itself. One Pokemon resisting it's main set doesn't equate to "checks and counters." It's the only thing that resists all of Metagross natural coverage and the rise of HP Fire make it harder to consistently counter. Something else you can say is Bronzong, but that is extremely niche.

Where Mega Metagross is extremely good is how splashable it is. Metagross's typing and movepool allow it to fulfill a role as a wallbreaker while also forcing out other wallbreakers with its excellent speed. Its great defensive stats for such a strong wallbreaker make it hard to OHKO Mega Metagross especially on the physical side so unlike Mega Medicham its able to fulfill a role defensively as well. Mega Metagross like Lando-T is a low-risk pokemon with a, granted, oftentimes higher reward than other splashable mons like Ferrothorn or Lando-T, but I don't think that Mega Metagross has forced players to look outside the bounds of currently viable OU pokemon for a consistent counter and its not hard to pack 1 or 2 Mega Metagross checks on offensive teams such as Specs Greninja, Scarf Chomp, Duggy or Volcarona. I think Metagross is better than a lot of the other wallbreakers in the tier because of its splashability not its offensive presence.

You definitely don't need to reach out for some of those failsafe mons like p2 and Mandi like we had to do for Mence, Aegi etc. But the lack of consistent counterplay is what sets it apart from the rest of the tier.

Also can we stop it with the it benefits from all 4 terrains argument this argument is really stupid. Yes it is true it benefits from all terrains but who give a shit you aren't going to be packing more than 2 tapus on any one team simply due to their type synergies and the fact that they don't fit on every playstyle. Unlike Medicham in which Electric Terrain actually is significant since it allows its Thunder Punch to beat Mega Sableye, Metagross just hits harder under Psy and Electric Terrain. Its not that big of a deal and can fall under the category of Mega Metagross's splashibility that has been brought up above. Terrain Abuse offensive has been long dead since Terrains don't last long enough to be abusable and its extremely difficult to get your abuser in unless its Koko since none of the other tapus have pivoting moves. Who gives a shit, plently of pokemon benefit from 1 terrain or another, but terrains don't break Mega Metagross so trying to use this argument to justify a Mega Metagross ban is just as dumb as the Mega Slot argument from the anti-ban case.

I don't think its necessarily a pro van argument, just a statement of facts. It does benefit from all four terrain effect, this can't be disputed. Unlike when people use the 4MSS as an anti ban argument.

I find myself agreeing with ABR's argument in the OP of this thread that I think that this suspect was a bit too hasty after the Pheromosa ban and I'd like to see a bit more developement in the OU Metagame itself before considering banning Mega Metagross so at this point I'm anti-ban: Mega Meta's extremely good but I don't think its too strong for the metagame.

Metagross, in my and many others opinions, has been unhealthy and "broken" even in the Mosa meta. Waiting stagnants the meta for no other reason than the rest of the megas aren't out yet.

 

[Reviloja753]

We're not saying Megagross is impossible to remove from play, we're not saying it's impossible to switch into. Reading some of the posts here would make that abundantly clear. But I think most people read the first sentence or two and already have a response made up and ignore the rest of the post. What we are saying is that Megagross has made an enormous impact on the meta, and many of us believe that it is unhealthy. We've explained why...

It seems like you are against any pokemon that can put some sort of offensive pressure or is hard, but not impossible to play around. If a pokemon does this to a large degree than I can understand how it might be an issue, but meta metagross offensive pressure is as mega medicham.

Your post seems to me that you didn't read the portion of Moose's post that I quoted. Next time, don't become exhibit A.

As to the offensive pressure point, you are half right. Yes, the two megas apply similar amounts of offensive pressure. However, the difference is that MegaCham is rather frail and has an albeit small chance to crash with HJK. MegaMeta on the other hand does not use recoil moves, is pretty bulky and has a nice defensive typing to boot. Offense and Defense do not exist in vacuums. If they did, Kartana would have probably been suspected beforehand.

 

[kumiko]

Hi everyone, the Live Suspect Tour schedule has now been added to the third post of the thread. Thanks again to everyone who agreed to host and I wish everyone competing for reqs the best of luck on the ladder and in these tournaments.

Again, if you have any questions regarding this suspect feel free to shoot me a PM.

 

[Sulfurian]

It seems odd to me that no one has said anything about the greninjas, especially Ash greninja. You force it out from fear of dark pulse, reserving it for when gross shows up again.

And honestly everyone saying "we roll our eyes to the 4MSS argument" yet it seems that whenever someone mentions a "niche" counter or check, they just respond with a coverage move it has in its moveset, treating it as if it DOES have more than four moves at a time. Which is what things like hp fire or grass knot screams to me.

I don't quite understand the logic of "well this Pokémon set is niche, but once this mega stone is gone other sets or Pokémon will rank up in usage" his existence COULD create some more sets/add some creativity just as much as without it.

Also mega gross while it does not have recoil moves its main STABs again do have a miss chance. And to respond to the toshiro's response: yes gross is a wallbreaker, and yes you can force it out. But if hazards are up even the slightest chip helps immensely in taking it down so even if you switch after hammer arm lowers your speed you or your switch in has to probably take a hit.

I'm also surprised that the ban arguments have not mentioned Z moves against Mega Gross as well. Someone mentioned Z-fire fang or EQ garchomp. Actually dog-zygarde could threaten it by out speeding it, and hitting it with groundium z.

 

[snaildelagate]

I don't think its necessarily a pro van argument, just a statement of facts. It does benefit from all four terrain effect, this can't be disputed. Unlike when people use the 4MSS as an anti ban argument.

Yeah sure I wasn't disputing that, but my main argument was that you are never going to have more than one or super rarely two terrain setters on a team and most of these terrain effects don't make that big of a difference to be a seperate point from the more general point of Mega-Metagross's splashibility. Though the Electric Terrain Thunderpunch point that Bludz brought up is a fairly relevant and good example to the contrary of this.

Metagross, in my and many others opinions, has been unhealthy and "broken" even in the Mosa meta. Waiting stagnants the meta for no other reason than the rest of the megas aren't out yet.

My point wasn't about waiting for new megas to be released I doubt that Mega-Diancie or Mega Lopunny's release will have a drastic effect on Metagross' viability. I mostly want to wait to see if counters and new techniques to deal with Mega Metagross develop since its been so soon after Phero's ban that the meta hasn't really stabilized at least from what I've seen, and there is still is more room for innovation in ways to deal with Mega Meta.

After bludz solid argument though I became more convinced on the reasons why Mega Meta is broken because of its ability to do more trade < 1 for 1 fairly consistently regardless of matchup because of its defensive and offensive assets. This alongside the argument about the lack of viability of certain checks in enough to change my opinion on the matter, though I still wish that we had waited a bit longer on this suspect for the reasons stated above, but I'll concede that I was looking at Metagross a bit too one dimensionally from the perspective of a wallbreaker.