Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - A Thousand Miles [Zygarde is now Banned]

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Do we build in the same tier? Zygarde easily tops the “teambuilding checklist” of what to cover. There is either throwing on Tangrowth or you have to have numerous measures/risk being weak to semi-common variants. Tangrowth at least is close to a blanket answer, even if Toxic and Z Drag can be irksome, but aside from that you’re really grasping at straws because of the natural versatility it has that I alluded to (see: point on it only needing Thousand Arrows, read more into posts from people like ABR and even the OP itself, too).
I feel that listing Zygarde as the top-most threat to cover and Tang as the sole true counter is really overselling a bit the snake's abilities. He might be the hardest to handle, but failing to properly counter Ash Greninja for instance will yield far more disastrous results, and even if he has only one set, he can still surprise as Protean Greninja, which has a lot of possible sets and different counters.

There's a lot of pro-ban people that defend Zygarde to be broken because you need two checks for it, but that's probably the case for all other major OU threats. As it has been said, there's a ton of common mons that can check sufficiently well most Zygarde sets, and you don't have to always rely on its hardest counters like Tangrowth, but also Clefable, Mew, Reuniclus, Slowbro or Avalugg. Even Heatran can Toxic it on the switch.

Sure, he can hax his way to win with Glare, but so can Greninja with flinching on Dark Pulse to beat shakier counters like Toxapex or Ferrothorn. But you'd be hard-pressed to beat any defensive Landorus-T without severe haxxing, and it's still pretty damn common despite having fallen a bit of out flavor.

Zygarde lacks a lot of immediate power, power that previous suspected and banned pokemons had, to be considered broken. He's far from winning on a single wrong guess, and you should most of the time be able to formulate an appropriate response once you know his set.
 

Adri

formerly Adri989898
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
Sure, he can hax his way to win with Glare, but so can Greninja with flinching on Dark Pulse to beat shakier counters like Toxapex or Ferrothorn. But you'd be hard-pressed to beat any defensive Landorus-T without severe haxxing, and it's still pretty damn common despite having fallen a bit of out flavor.
Just to answer to that point: yes, it is true that Greninja-ash is a pain with his Dark Pulse being able to flinch your would-be-check-otherwise mon. But there are two things here that seem pretty important to me. Firstly, Greninja-Ash can't really fish for those flinch. Yes, of course you can get a flinch and win the game from there. But if you try and don't get it, you will probably lose your gren (be it against Tangrowth, ferrothorn, tapu fini... Even Toxapex can be very annoying if it can toxic or even just recover, which means that the damages you had got on him are no more useful to you). The major difference between those two is there: Zygarde can just fish for the paras with sub, or it can just set-up and bet on the fact that you will get one or two paras during the multiple turns it will take to set-up. That's far less risky than trying to get the flinch with Ash-gren, and that's why Zygarde is really promoting cheese/haxx with paras, whereas Ash-Gren simply has a "way to potentially beat its counters if nothing else works".

And secondly, even if it Ash-Gren was also revolving around haxx and cheese... How does that make Zygarde less toxic/annoying ? Even if it's not the only mon that could be suspected -which is of course arguable-... Why should it stop everyone from suspecting it for this very reason ?

Anyway, I liked Zygarde a lot at the beginning of this gen, but now the sub glare set is far too annoying to beat (unless you run stall, but a mon which makes you want to use stall just to be sure to beat it is unhealthy in my opinion...). That's the main reason why it has to go in my opinion. (That and the fact that it restricts teambuilding as hell, but it has already been said a lot of times so w/e)
 
Just to answer to that point: yes, it is true that Greninja-ash is a pain with his Dark Pulse being able to flinch your would-be-check-otherwise mon. But there are two things here that seem pretty important to me. Firstly, Greninja-Ash can't really fish for those flinch. Yes, of course you can get a flinch and win the game from there. But if you try and don't get it, you will probably lose your gren (be it against Tangrowth, ferrothorn, tapu fini... Even Toxapex can be very annoying if it can toxic or even just recover, which means that the damages you had got on him are no more useful to you). The major difference between those two is there: Zygarde can just fish for the paras with sub, or it can just set-up and bet on the fact that you will get one or two paras during the multiple turns it will take to set-up. That's far less risky than trying to get the flinch with Ash-gren, and that's why Zygarde is really promoting cheese/haxx with paras, whereas Ash-Gren simply has a "way to potentially beat its counters if nothing else works".

And secondly, even if it Ash-Gren was also revolving around haxx and cheese... How does that make Zygarde less toxic/annoying ? Even if it's not the only mon that could be suspected -which is of course arguable-... Why should it stop everyone from suspecting it for this very reason ?

Anyway, I liked Zygarde a lot at the beginning of this gen, but now the sub glare set is far too annoying to beat (unless you run stall, but a mon which makes you want to use stall just to be sure to beat it is unhealthy in my opinion...). That's the main reason why it has to go in my opinion. (That and the fact that it restricts teambuilding as hell, but it has already been said a lot of times so w/e)
There are many mons and whole teams that play around hax and annoying mechanics. That's a huge part of the game and thus not a factor that should be considered when banning a mon. Things like ParaFlinch Jirachi can fish for hax, pex / gastro / mantine can fish for scald burns, Zap can fish for paras, etc. What is the relevant difference between Zygarde fishing for hax and every other mon doing something similar?
 

Adri

formerly Adri989898
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
There are many mons and whole teams that play around hax and annoying mechanics. That's a huge part of the game and thus not a factor that should be considered when banning a mon. Things like ParaFlinch Jirachi can fish for hax, pex / gastro / mantine can fish for scald burns, Zap can fish for paras, etc. What is the relevant difference between Zygarde fishing for hax and every other mon doing something similar?
Coming with a physical sweeper on a scald is not the same thing as coming with a Bulu on a Zygarde... In the first case, you perfectly know that you are taking a risk. In the second one, the haxx can make Zygarde come through its "counters", even though the play is perfectly fine for a lot of Zygarde sets. So I would say that the major difference between the examples you give and zygarde is that in your examples, these moves simply reduce the number of switch-ins to these mons. For Zygarde, not only does it reduce to zero the number of "safe switch ins", but it can also allow him to sweep directly, which your examples don't really allow (not even Jirachi, because firstly it's not that common nowadays and secondly even if it Paras/Flinches you to death, it will still have to do it to the rest of your team).
There are mons coming on pex that don't really fear anything from it. There isn't anything coming on Zygarde that doesn't fear one of it's sets, and to check which one you face, you will have to take the risk of being in a situation where haxx makes you lose the game.

Zygarde is incredibly versatile, that's a fact. That doesn't mean it's broken, I'll admit it. There are other mons that are versatile too (Protean gren, Heatran, etc). But when you get your check to one of those mons in and that your opponent has the set that threatens your mon, you're in a bad situation, but not in a situation where you have to pray to not get full paralyzed (or more generally haxxed) or get 6-0'd. That's, for me, the main difference between Zygarde and pretty much any other mon in the tier.
 
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