Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - A Thousand Miles [Zygarde is now Banned]

Status
Not open for further replies.
I got reqs, not sure how they need to be submitted but I'm gonna attach a screenshot of it here. I'm going to be voting do not ban. Now I'm going to preface this with the fact that I am by no means a skilled player and have not been in any OU based smogon tournaments, but from where I am on the ladder(usually in the 1700s at this point) I don't see that many issues with Zygarde. I've never had a battle where I've outright lost to it, and maybe that's just me and my luck, but it still stands.

Even thought Zygarde is easily one of the most versatile pokemon in the OU tier(versatile meaning so many sets function) I don't believe any of these sets has the clear ability to beat a team. Depending on your team, you typically have a natural counter or at least one or two checks to any Zygarde set. Fini naturally stops the Toxic or Glare sets as long as the terrain stays up, Tangrowth can stop non toxic sets, and we have a wide abundance of checks to OHKO Zygarde as long as it doesn't have a sub or veil is up(and in my experience Veil is not a very large percentage of the community) such as Protean Gren, Magearna, Weavile, MMawile, MMedicham, etc(I'm well aware these are checks, not counters). I think that even though a pokemon can be built to beat any of its counters, this is not a characteristic of a broken mon. This is the characteristic of a very good mon. I may have some bias here as I'm more of a draft league player, but I see no problem with a mon being able to run a set that counters its counters as long as that set does not beat everything else. And, to be frank, Zygarde does not have that ability. Not running toxic means losing to things like Tang, but then Toxic is stopped by Fini which then beats bulky Zygarde, and then there's stuff like Reuniclus that I'm p sure can beat almost any set(people were telling me that in Smogtour DTail was being run, but you never see that on ladder ever.)

Another reason I kinda like Zygarde is the creativity of the community to come up with counters to it. Now me actually liking the meta a lot rn is not a reason in itself for why not to ban and I know this, but I do like seeing what's come up out of it. Things like Avalugg and Mega Aggron stall, things you would otherwise never see. I just like the fact there are so many mons being used rn and I like the meta a lot rn.

Running a cleric can also stop Zygarde pretty easily, and there's a way to do it without running Stall(like I admittedly do). Clefable and Tangrowth are both two top mons rn, and Clefable can easily run Heal Bell while beating things like CB Zygarde(99.6% of the time) and DD if you choose to run Unaware, while Tangrowth can generally wall it with the assistance of Heal Bell. I just think there's counterplay.

I see a lot of comparisons to Mega Metagross, but the difference between Zygarde and Mega Metagross is that Mega Metagross beat almost all of its counters simultaneously, while any given Zygarde set will still have(an admitted limited) number of counters or at least checks. MMeta was able to destroy almost all of the meta bar Mega Scizor with its standard set, and so it could adapt to run HP Fire much more easily than Zygarde and Toxic.

Another point I want to make is that people say Zygarde can beat a number of its counters through Glare. Although I don't think hax can be considered a wincon in a reasonable argument, I'm going to apply the same logic to toxic. It can miss. I know it's not the same percent chance, but it is if the counter has to be parad multiple times on the perfect turns.

Overall I just never saw Zygarde as broken so I'm gonna vote do not ban.
 

Attachments

The Heatran comparisons is really foolish and off base.

First off, there is universal counterplay. Heatran is never breaking any bulky Zygarde itself, SDef Mew on Stall (the set I posted on all my teams), Mega Latias, etc.
Hi Finch, its not the thread, but in the past gen Heatran started to use DarkPulse for killing Starmie (more now it has z-crystal) and It learn HP Ice too. Im sure if Mew, Latias o Zygarde were an objetive of Heatran, It could kill them.

Excuse my English. See you.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Hi Finch, its not the thread, but in the past gen Heatran started to use DarkPulse for killing Starmie (more now it has z-crystal) and It learn HP Ice too. Im sure if Mew, Latias o Zygarde were an objetive of Heatran, It could kill them.

Excuse my English. See you.
These are super uncommon, if even seen at all, and not relevant to the discussion. Heatran has blanket counterplay is the point.

Either way, this comparison is starting to derail the thread, so let’s move on. Thanks to everyone for their points on the matter, but now we can focus on Zygarde itself again!
 
On phone so excuse formatting.

I've already stated my position too much so I went go in depth. That being said, this has a lot of things that are just...wrong.

Z crystal sets and especially Toxic are not at all "obscure" sets. Toxic DD is arguably the best set atm and the Zs while underused are still very potent and relatively underprepped for. WP, Double Dance and Dragonium are the only niche sets and of all those only Double Dance is truly obscure, which is because it's only really good in HO.

You make a comparison to Ash Gren and multiple Pokémon that except Magearna have no real point of comparison. I've explained why before but a good TL;DR is that they don't offer Zygardes immense defensive utility while still maintaining great offensive presence. Only Magearna gets anywhere close to it and even then it's really not lol

Oh and as a side note can people stop fucking bringing up Ash Gren to compare Zyg too when it's literally the polar opposite of it?? 1 incredible set that you know and can prep for versus a myriad of sets that you can't

You also mention Hippo which would most definitely not have any usage outside of Stall if it weren't for Zygarde(not that it gets impressive usage right now),

Defensive Lando which would also be significantly worse if it weren't for Zygarde, it's not even particularly good right now,

Clefable which is on the down low and always should be ran alongside another Zyg check,

Mew that half the reason it sees the little usage it does is Zygarde

and then randomly 2 offensive Mons that aren't of particular note against it.

Hell, Bulus not a good Zygarde check at ALL, it loses to literally every popular Zygarde set(SubGlare, Toxic, CB, Steelium).

Tangrowth would still see substantial usage without Zygarde in the tier but NOT near the levels it sees atm.

Out of the very large list you mentioned, Zygarde is a vital part of their usage for all them(except for the random Zard and Gren that have nothing to do with it??)

Like obviously this is a discussion on opinions and I know I said this before but the no ban arguments in this thread are either shallow or pointless. Please carefully consider the arguments on both sides and take note of the best posts on each one. There's literally 1 good post on the no ban side and even that isn't concrete, compared to like 10 great posts on the pro ban side. Like sure it's anectodal evidence at best and I'm not trying to belittle anyone but seriously, read through the thread actually.
Thank you for the respectful reply. I see where you're coming from, but I spoke from my experience. Of all Zygarde sets I encountered, 9/10 were DD, SubCoil or CB; the very rarest Zygarde sets were toxic or Z, and that's why I described them as obscure. Concering your remark noting the comparison to other offensive powerhouses being wrong, I must concede you're right somewhere but my point was that Zygarde is not the only offensive powerhouse in the tier and should be accounted for in teambuilding the same way as we account for said Greninja-Ash, Magearna and the likes, despite those threats being far more linear and predictable. I concede that Zygarde's sheer versatility makes it far different but I stand by my point still: Zygarde isn't overcentralizing the metagame to the point where we need obscure checks/counters to deal with it the way Aegislash for example did in XY.

Just wanted to say something really quick, I've seen way too many comparisons of Zygarde with other top tier OU Pokémon. Like sure they each are strong in their own rights, but comparing Zygarde to the likes of Heatran, Ash-Greninja, and Mega Mawile is just extremely far fetched. Like, honestly, what do they even have in common aside from being good in the current metagame? Like Talah said already Ash-Greninja and Zygarde are nearly polar opposites. Heatran and Mega Mawile are somewhat versatile, but they have like two sets and Zygarde has a dozen. The only comparisons that make some sense are Magearna and Volcarona, but even then, the former has a couple definitive checks like Assault Vest Magearna, and Jirachi, and the latter requires a lot more support to set up and doesn't have nearly as much bulk as Zygarde does.

But even then, let's say these were fine comparisons. So what? The suspect test is on Zygarde not on any of these. Listing a dozen of random top tier OU Pokémon doesn't make Zygarde any less broken. If your mindset is that Zygarde is actually broken but blank is more broken and should be suspect tested first, well you're just being selfish then, because you're not thinking about the status quo of the tier and how a Zygarde ban would help but instead just your own biased view of which Pokémon should be suspect tested. If you're drawing these comparisons to make a point that Zygarde is normal just like the other top tier Pokémon, well, you're just being dumb then, like sure they can share a trait or two, but no other Pokémon has a way to literally cheese through and beat every single one of its checks with viable sets. And no, Psychium Z Volcarona and SubSwarm Volcarona aren't viable.

But yeah, echoing Talah's thoughts a bit but please consider the arguments you're using before brainlessly picking some random A+ and S ranks to compare to Zygarde. That's all thanks for reading :toast:
Again, we're not comparing Zygarde to A and S rank Pokemon for the actual value they offer to their team. We're comparing Zygarde to these threats inasmuch as you need to account for Zygarde in teambuilding like you account for such threats, given how all of them are highly viable, to build a successful team. Heatran and Zygarde play roles so different they don't even compare, but both are very competent at the roles and this is why you cannot build a successful team that has no real Heatran answer. What I must concede, echoing Talah's words, is that Zygarde differs from all these threats by being far less predictable. It has so many good sets it can be hard telling which it is that you're fighting.
 
Last edited:

Colonel M

Anime pfps discredit your value
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
As a general reminder since I had to delete (and infract) a post:

This thread is for Zygarde 50% Suspect only.

It isnt about Magearna Ash-Gren Lando-T Heatran.
It isnt about banning Thousand Arrows only.
It isnt about banning Zygarde-10%.
It isnt about unbanning something (this was brought up once).

This thread is not the place for these things.
 
It has many checks and counters, which seems fine at first, but none of those are reliable to stop the most used Zygarde sets at the same time (barring mew, it checks the most relevant variations but just dies to +1 Z-Stab anyway) and the main reasons that makes zyg an unhealthy presence are its uncompetitiveness thanks to its ability to wear down, overwhelm and/or lure supposing checks in such an easy way (and never having big drawbacks), an incredible capacity to support many offensive threats offensively and defensively (be it via wallbreaking or simply spreading bad status) while not needing much support of team mates to do its work, huge defensive stats to a bulky-offensiveish mon and besides it all, if thats not already enough, the fact that NOTHING is immune to its main ground-type move (also stab), which is definitely stupid and unbalanced, just by itself.
On the whole I get the points you're making here, but some of them do not make sense. The concept of a "check" does not mean that a mon must be able to "stop the most used sets at the same time". If you want to say that Zygarde lacks true 'counters', then that's fine, but I'd still argue that counters do exist, they're just not as splashable/viable in the context of the current meta (see: Buzzwole, Avalugg, sub-optimal Mew & Gliscor spreads, etc.). Stuff like PhysDef Tang, Clef, Lando-T, M-Sciz etc. are "checks" because they provide counterplay to most of Zygarde's common sets without giving up their overall utility in other ways to do so.

The only substantive point you made for these checks not being good enough is more or less "they don't appreciate getting statused". I mean, most mons don't, but this isn't a concept unique to Zygarde -- ORAS Clef's checks don't like getting statused either and it could cheese out 1v1s against those (though it's not a perfect comparison). The fact that TA frees up Zyg's moveslots so that it can status its checks on switch-in is definitely a valid point, but imo not one that equates to brokenness, since Zygarde counterplay doesn't exist in a vaccuum. Getting statused doesn't automatically mean they can no longer check Zyg, nor does it mean that a player has no counterplay against Zyg besides sending in a defensive check each time. I'd argue that most teams naturally do pack more than one check anyway, since its checks perform many unrelated but useful roles (e.g.: Clef+Tang).

Talking about its versatility: no, it DOES NOT need the right set to win games, or even to do something in a game, simply because it has all it needs almost every time since Thousand Arrows always hits, and every single set works around wearing down supposed checks to either just spam arrows at some point later in the match by spreading its own bad status and coverage, or making team mates way more dangerous thanks to its offensive support ... I need ways to check it and counter it too as a backup plan, because at least two out of the 5~6 MOST USED sets (I actually meant the most used, there are like 5 extra movesets that are also good enough) abuse these pokemon.
Again, I get what you're saying but this reads as a straw-man. No one is saying that Zygarde needs the right set to "even do something in a game" - it's an A+ viability mon and most of its peers are able to meaningfully affect games despite having a bad matchup. No one is making it a binary choice between Zyg running through a team vs not being relevant. Obviously the ability to spread status and tank hits from common threats in the meta is valuable, even if Zyg does not sweep or even claim one kill. But again, my mind is open to being changed but I'm having trouble getting over the line between acknowledging those things and saying "and these things make Zyg unhealthy". I also don't get why Zyg's ability to offensively support teammates = Zyg is broken. Any well-built team is supposed to have mons whose sets synergize well with one another. Zyg's CB set does this at least as well as any of its sets and from my impression it seems like this is the least controversial among pro-ban.

Just to finish, here are some replays in where zyg was supposed to be checked but simply found a way to win or be relevant:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404270 - OLT Vs. Zuch - Got haxed a lot but zyg just did what its supposed to do and was a pain to deal with. I had tang and landorus.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400833 - OLT Vs. ABR - chipped his lando and just won with a DD version, showing how zygarde can just click setup and damage moves without drawbacks. He had clef and landorus.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400834 - OLT Vs. ABR - Was really difficult to him not getting overwhelmed by zyg + ts, id prolly not click glare vs his tang if I had not a plan to possibly lure that with landorus. free turns against an already passive mon is always appreciated anyway. he had tang and offensive counters.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395433 - Snake Vs. RedEmption - All I needed to do here was clicking arrows like twice vs his lando and then I had a clean sweep after a DD or two. Unfortunately I wasnt on my best day and he did what he needed abusing of a possible missplay by my part. Zyg was huge anyway, just wanted to show again that it doesnt have drawbacks in just spamming broken arrows.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-306812 - WCOP - John Vs. BlackOblivion - Not recent ofc, but evey time someone talks about zyg's ability to win vs anything this game comes across my mind.
I don't think these replays demonstrated Zygarde's brokenness like you intended them to. If your primary takeaway from the first replay given all the hax and decisions made was "broken zyg wins again", then I don't know what to say. That game was not unfairly influenced by Zyg's utility in resting off a few hits from pre-evolved Gren and pulling the right move on Sleep Talk. Same with the third replay - I don't know how between turns 11 and 13 you can say "it's hard to see him not getting overwhelmed by zyg" when what actually happened was you making two great reads in a row vs Diancie point-blank. The fourth replay doesn't do a good job proving what you said it does, but even in the abstract, I don't see how Zyg is the only mon who wants to get off 1-2 turns of chip on Lando before setting up and winning late-game (see: ZardX, MPinsir, Gyara, even DD Mence/Nite). We can disagree on the second replay but 1) his team is very ground-weak without Lando, 2) it showcased Heatran's effectiveness more than Zyg imo, and 3) Zyg isn't the only mon in gen 7 ou that can run through teams when its checks are weakened - something like sand rush Exacdrill would have swept too without Lando. If anything, most of these demonstrated how Zyg can win games, but not why it took competitive skill or agency out of the hands of either player in doing so.

The amount of bad arguments in this thread reflects the level of many people that will be voting via ladder reqs. I definitely felt like the requiriments of this suspect were really easy to get since the start, and while i think that a good number of people showing interest in the matter (as seen by the 200+ posts in the identification thread) is interesting to say the least, I really dont know If the right decision will be made at this point.
I respect your arguments and your ability as a player but this is really not appropriate, and since this part of your post is allowed I think I'm entitled to respond. What is the "right" decision? Most people brought some kind of HO, stall or other cheese to get ladder reqs, and others blatantly said "I'm voting ban because gen 7 should look more like old gen OUs". Should we exclude all the shoddy ban arguments too then? There is no measurable difference between setting GXE at 80, 82, 85 or some other combination for determining whether someone can tell how Zyg operates in the meta and form an opinion. Laddering is very unenjoyable as is, and making people play more games for no purpose just excludes players who don't have the time or desire to go through the hoops, which isn't a fair system. Also the fact that this suspect comes 1) during holidays and 2) during finals for some players (myself included) has a major impact on how much time one can dedicate to actually laddering. It leads to having to read nonsense like "most of the DNB posts/support are just noise anyways: out of the 18 explicit DNB posters here, only 10 are qualified to vote, with two of those being known tour players", which is extremely off-topic, and honestly baffling to me for reasons I won't get into here.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
I’m hopping on a four hour flight rn. By the time I come back, I hope that we all can move on from whatever this is. I’m glad that people want to contribute to the thread and offer their insight; that’s what makes these threads worth having and makes this community function as it does. That doesn’t mean I’m ok with people using this as a platform to attack or personally pick-apart others. This is directed at both sides and not just the recent posts at all. I think that some recent posts actually have great points, but things are starting to get bitchy, so let’s avoid that from here on out.
 

Leo

turn around and leave again
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
I'm not making new points, just re-iterating most of what was said, because the discussion cannot drag to infinity. Most of the issue has been explored, and I side with the 'Do Not Ban' arguments because I find them more logical. In the end, you fight one set, and you either have answers, or must adapt your team to have answers to the most efficient tactics available.
I'm using this as an example because it's the first post that came to mind but I think most people arguing in this thread are reading or at least looking at most posts so let's just stop with these "summarizing everything that's been said" posts because I've seen too many of them and they don't get anywhere or add anything and even end up misinterpreting other people's posts and further derailing the thread. Either contribute to the discussion with something of value or don't post at all, it's that simple
 

Felixx

I'm back.
Since the suspect test is almost over, I'd just like to say that, either way the suspect goes, whether Zygarde gets banned or not, it's going to be manageable either way. If Zygarde stays, then we end up with the same old same old OU metagame we've had for a while, which is isn't always bad, as with this suspect sparking a lot of discussion on Zygarde's unmatched versatility and many different possible sets, we've also discussed how Zygarde really isn't this unstoppable set-up sweeper or unbreakable defensive / utility mon. I think that the best way to handle Zygarde's different sets if it ends up staying, is to do what we've always done, identify it's most common and effective sets, then adapt to it whichever way we can. I mean, a lot of OU Pokemon have forced us to constantly adapt to them, such as w/ Heatran, Tapu Koko, and Tapu Bulu. If Zygarde ends up getting banned however, I'm pretty sure the OU meta isn't just going to collapse all of a sudden like banning Heatran or Lando would. Fire-types would definitely get better, with Heatran being the most obvious, as Zygarde could soft check it's Utility / sp. def Tran sets. Volcarona won't need to run Buginium Z as much, and Blace will get to run Choice Scarf more (which is great since OU is kinda lacking in variety for Scarfers). Zard-X won't need to run a Dragon-type move as much (it will still run it though), and Zard-Y will lose a good answer to it (if it's a bulky Zyg set like sp. def SubCoilGlare / RestTalk). And other answers to Fire-types will just get more common, such as Garchomp, Gliscor, Tapu Fini, Rotom-W, Gastrodon, etc. Ofc they won't be perfect replacements, but we can manage. Now, back to Zygarde, I'll personally be helping ban Zygarde, as I really love teambuilding, and its honestly very restricting to build w/ it in the tier sometimes. I'll end up using the same Pokemon, frequently using sets that are catered to holding Zygarde back (Bulk Up Tapu Bulu, Grass Knot / HP Ice Tangrowth, HP Ice Lando, Curse Mega Scizor, Ice Beam (M-) Slowbro). It's pretty much a fact that Zygarde constantly affects teambuilding, and this is one of its unhealthy aspects we have to accept. Hopefully the metagame will get a lot more interesting once we get the results for the suspect. Maybe if Zygarde stays someone will end up inventing a good set that utilizes Thousand Waves lol.


But all in all, the bottonline is, Zygarde is and has always been a defining force, and it has shaped the OU metagame into what is has become today. Everyone have a great New Year!
 
Last edited:
I dont have the quests but i want to say my oppinion and ask a question to everybody.

I think that zygarde has one of the most powerful movesets of the metagame. Glare DD Coil Thousand arrows, Iron tail, Outrage...

I now that is very difficult to know the set of Zygarde. He has a very good bulk. But why Zygarde have been for to long time in the OU metagame???

And my answer is easy: He has a lot of checks and counters. But if you want to stop it you have to play very very hard the checks/counters to avoid the sweep.

When i build some teams Zygarde is always a problem. He can make a easy set up sweep and sometimes i dont know how to stop.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
I’ve made a number of smaller, moderation duty oriented posts and most of them have kind of alluded to my overall stance in some capacity, but I do want to elaborate a little. I will be voting ban on Zygarde.

The points that people like ABR and Craing hit on recently echo the vast majority of my sentiment. While it is true that Zygarde is check/counter-able, it brings a certain element of versatility to the game and restriction to the teambuilder that I find to be unwelcome and make it banworthy.

Zygarde has a number of sets that all have the ability to pick apart some forms of normal counterplay, as so many others have listed and elaborated on in past posts. While versatility = broken is a flawed, oftentimes incorrect conclusion, there is certainly some correlation. That correlation shows here and seeing as Zygarde only truly needs Thousand Arrows, the big snake finds itself capable of abusing its widespread movepool quite well, letting it essentially dictate what it’s true checks and counters are.

Ultimately, the lack of universal counterplay coupled with the sheer team-to-team adaptability of Zygarde makes it a menace to consistently prepare for. While the metagame has and can continue to adapt to it, Zygarde still proves to be a top tier win condition and overall pokemon. Everything is just a bit too convenient and with too minimal an opportunity cost to make Zygarde a fully manageable presence in the metagame given what I outlined above.
 
While the metagame has and can continue to adapt to it, ...
This part alone should be more than enough reason to justify why Zygarde shouldn't go imo. But I'll elaborate:

- counterplay exists
- it isn't some obscure 'mon or set you need with the sole purpose of handling Zygarde, so the whole "restrictive to building" part is debatable (at least not more so than any top tier threat like Heatran, Gren, Mage, ... causes imo. Though I suppose this bit is somewhat more subjective)

But most importantly:
- People who don't use Zygarde aren't at an inherent disadvantage when playing this tier, compared to people who do, and there exist plenty different well-built top tier teams in a variety of styles ranging from stall to offense that don't use or would be better with the snake.

This last point is what really sells it for me, and I believe that it's been the central and most important question we tried to answer in every past suspect, and should try to answer in any suspect to come.

I got my reqs a week ago, watched a lot of recent high-end games both with and without Zyg, and will be voting for it to stay. Not because it "makes the tier better/more enjoyable" or anything (which shouldn't even matter...), but because it isn't broken in any sense of the word, or causes any more centralization than you could expect from any of the many top tier 'mons OU has.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
This part alone should be more than enough reason to justify why Zygarde shouldn't go imo.
That’s absurd. You took part of a sentence without the contradictory, focal clause as the basis for your argument.

But I'll elaborate:

- counterplay exists
- it isn't some obscure 'mon or set you need with the sole purpose of handling Zygarde, so the whole "restrictive to building" part is debatable (at least not more so than any top tier threat like Heatran, Gren, Mage, ... causes imo. Though I suppose this bit is somewhat more subjective)
Do we build in the same tier? Zygarde easily tops the “teambuilding checklist” of what to cover. There is either throwing on Tangrowth or you have to have numerous measures/risk being weak to semi-common variants. Tangrowth at least is close to a blanket answer, even if Toxic and Z Drag can be irksome, but aside from that you’re really grasping at straws because of the natural versatility it has that I alluded to (see: point on it only needing Thousand Arrows, read more into posts from people like ABR and even the OP itself, too).

But most importantly:
- People who don't use Zygarde aren't at an inherent disadvantage when playing this tier, compared to people who do, and there exist plenty well-built top tier teams in a variety of styles ranging from stall to offense that don't use or would be better with the snake.
What. Why is this relevant at all? This can be said about any Pokemon that has graced the tier that hasn’t gotten quick banned. If we dropped Genesect or Mega Metagross now, people not using them could still win consistently. That has no (or very minimal) correlation to them being banworthy or not. Top tier pokemon don’t even scrape 50% usage fsr more often than not. This is a horrible argument that can’t be used against Zygarde’s pro-Ban side at all.
 
Time for me to drop my two cents in the jar.

This suspect test brings to mind gen 6 Greninja. Tongue Scarf was banned at that time because like, one or two mons could act as reliable switch ins to it. Zygarde is the same way. Like Gen 6 Greninja, he has a set to beat almost any Pokemon in the tier bar Tangrowth (and spaghetti ball does not appreciate Toxic) necessitating 2 dedicated checks to be reliably safe from Zygarde. This sheer versatility coupled with the fact that, unlike Greninja back in gen 6, Zy has respectable bulk and offense and it only makes sense to hit Zygarde with the hammer of bans. There is precedent and Zygarde arguably is even more versatile now than when Greninja was banished to the shadow realm.
 
I used to think zygarde was fine in the tier, but I've changed my mind. Honestly, Thousand Arrows saves it from being an unmon in this tier. It's such a stupid move and its warped the tier to require ground resistances on teams because the ground immunities we've relied on for generations are meaningless. The dumb effect of TA and the potency of ground type attacks combined with the fact that Zygarde is one of the bulkiest pokemon in the tier and has multiple options to boost its stats or cripple the opponent is too much for this meta.

It almost seems like the meta goes out of it's way to favor zygarde. Games are long. Anything that is immune to toxic is weak to TA. It's both faster and fatter than most walls in the tier. It resists stealth rock.
Grassy Terrain doesn't affect TA. Glare is the best para move. It gets the best priority move. Because it doesn't rely on z moves or a mega stone there is little opportunity cost to using it, but it can make use of z moves too (I dont like these sets.)

I hate TA and think it's a stupid move (what's the flavor on this anyway? How does a ground move hit something in the air) and believe zygarde 50% is entirely too well equipped to abuse it in the tier and that it has had an unhealthy affect on teambuilding.
 

Bloody alfa

But WE will feast on your flesh.
is a Tiering Contributor
Ill be voting ban.

Like said before, Zygarde reminds me the issue we had in ORAS with Greninja. In my opinion, the versality that zygarde has is pretty unhealthy for the metagame, making hes counters/checks non-existant. Ive been toying with all kind of hes sets, and without doubt the main problem that we have with him is thousand arrows. This move alone can make zygarde go from a pityful mon to a top mon in a blink of an eye, but i understand that banning a move again (hello baton pass) can be a little bit troublesome.

And again, and for many times, ive been finding myself putting thousand arrows on zygarde and then looking at the rest of the team that i built to make sure that the last 3 moves on him suit perfectly the purpose of the team.

- Want to wear down balanced cores ? Insert band
- Want to annoy offense? Insert glare
- Want to counter hes defensive checks/counters (lando, tang, etc)? Insert toxic
- Want to sweep teams (under screens or without them)? Insert Dragon dance+ coil or coverage
- Want to be a little bit more creative? Insert camuflage (and for sakes god, ive been running this set for a while and i laugh at people here who doesnt take it seriously)
- Want to use it on a heavy offensive team? Insert Z-move (either ground, steel or dragon)
- Etc, etc, etc...

In no world a mon like him should be allowed in OU, because teambuilding becomes more like "okay, ill be using this counter an pray that my opp doesnt use the other 20millions sets, or ill be in trouble". In my opinion, suspecting thousand arrows was the right move, but since we're in this, lets make the right choice and make this tier as good a it can be.

Peace
 
What I don’t understand is people saying counterplay exist. While I would agree with it about Pokémon like Magearna, Charizard, Greninja or Landorus because they have multiple offensive moves that allow you to play around them without using a counter, Zygarde’s sets are used not to deal with the metagame itself but with a part of its supposed “checks and counters” since it already can beat any other mon.

Its only mandatory move is Thousand Arrows, which leave it with only two resists and we will agree they are not good types in general. The rest of its moveset can be dispatched into support and coverage (more like a lure than a sweeper’s coverage) to make its match up wider if not totally broken (besides, I don’t think it is the only one, but it is an offensive threat that can run a moveset you could consider for a defensive or support Pokémon).

If you don’t have a counter, you only have counterplay in revenge killing it or preventing it from coming in by setting annoying hazards (namely the Toxic Spikes) or pressuring the opponent’s team without leaving room for it to come in. But since it can easily come on a bunch of mons and it isn’t as difficult to defog now than earlier in the generation, it is nearly impossible to use the second and third strategies. Also, revenge kill can sometimes be ineffective since Zygarde has Dragon Dance to outspeed its fast answers and Coil to prevent an Ice Shard from dealing with it while Substitute can deal with the two at the same time.

Since I didn’t to the suspect, I won’t be able to vote but I’m sure Zygarde-50% is Banworthy because of it having few useable answers and being able to play around its usual counters with different sets while having no other countermeasure as effective as you would have against the rest of the metagame.
 

Ske

Uh, uh, uh, uh (Yeah)
is a Pre-Contributor
zygarde-5.gif


This is my first suspect test that im actually voting, & im here to say that i will be voting Ban on Zygarde


I have been a really active player & builder in the gen 7 OU tier so i can tell u all about how much Zygarde restricts building, but im here to tell u why i think Zygarde needs to go 100%, i haven't looked at this tread that much yet so im sure many pepole have solid reason for it to stay or go, but here is my take on this suspect test.

Like what Finch said Zygarde has a bunch of sets that beat its answers, many pepole here like to argue that versatility doesn't mean a mon is broken, well im here to tell u that to be honest that is not the reason why Zygarde should be banned i agree, but that is Not the problem. What is the problem tho is that Zygarde is unhealthy to the meta-game in a sense that it has no real reliable checks in the tier, one of the bigger issues is that the meta-game revolves around Zygarde & it just adapts to the changes, a while back people started running glare to cheese through Clefables & Tapu Bulu's so pepole started running Tangrowth, then they started to run Toxic, it forces the meta in this constant cycle whereas Zygarde always benefits & cheeses past its answers & wins, sure every one of its sets has a answer, for example Glare Zygarde loses to Tangrowth & that Toxic Zygarde is annoyed by Magic Guard mons, but the issue here is that Zygarde is so centralizing becuase it has so many good sets that u cant check all of them with just 1 or 2 pokemon so it puts so much strain on teambuilding & the metagame in general.

there has never been a point in the meta-game where Zygarde has fallen a bit & some set doesn't take off & beat its common answer.
Sure u can say that oh, Kyurem, Mega Heracross, Hoopa, ect have no real all around defensive counter-play ether so Zygarde is fine. Yeah but those are Wallbreakers, not a Pokemon that can sweep, provide a bunch of defensive utility ect, & Zygarde is also much more splash-able, Just because something has a answer doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy, Look at Mega Metagross, In a way Zygarde kinda reminds me of Mega Metagross offensively as it chooses what it wants to be weak to, while Mega Metagross + Magnezone made it near impossible to deal with, Toxic Zygarde with the combination of Magnezone is so deadly s/o Finchinator as Magnezone traps Mega Scizor, one of Zygardes best answers, which allows Toxic Zygarde to wreak havoc on the opposing team.


Am i saying Zygarde is comparable to Mega Metagross? No, Mega Metagross's case is completely different as they are different Pokemon, Im just saying their offensive presence is similar in my opinion as both of them choose what mon they want to be weak to & the meta-game kind of revolves around them in a unhealthy way, Zygarde is a pokemon i feel is causing more harm than good & the Thousand Arrows + 3 other moves combination may be too much for the tier.



 
Last edited:
So I didn't get reqs, I tried my absolute hardest but I don't know what was with me I just was dropping the ball left and right during my attempts. That being said, I wanted to bring something up so I understand if people dismiss me or feel that it is not my place to talk, but I felt it was an important thing to keep in mind and I wanted to say my peace because if I didn't I'd be really mad at myself for staying quiet since I do very much enjoy the OU ladder and while I'm not exactly a top tier player I do love teambuilding and competing against my fellow players. So, with that out of the way:

Something another user brought up was how we require blanket checks for everything in the OU metagame, and the more I played and the more I looked into what Zygarde does and what it doesn't do it was something that stuck with me. Another user also brought up the fact that if Zygarde was removed, fire types would become more prominent. This is something of a concern, as a lot of the time it is hard to find very good answers to certain fire types (mainly heatran) in teambuilding. Zygarde has been something that has drastically helped against it, and I fear banning Zygarde would cause a ripple where we would be lacking counters to some extremely problematic mons in the tier. I understand everyone's concerns with it's versatility, but I feel that in terms of versatility there are mons that can do the 1v6 impossible-to-predict nature of competitive battling much better. This isn't to say other mons should be banned, but I feel the versatility on Zygarde is somewhat overstated and the benefits it brings to the tier by being here are understated in return. I know some will argue that I am missing the point of a suspect test, but I feel it's important to view both sides of the debate when discussing a ban in the biggest tier in Smogon. If Zygarde goes, I worry many other mons will become highly problematic in the future without a reliable check to handle them, leading back to where we started with needing to ban out a certain Pokemon because everyone is saying it's too strong. Much like Landorus-Therian, Zygarde has been a great help in keeping other much worse Pokemon in check due to it's existence, and is being targeted unfairly under the claim it's "too versatile" even though I feel it's a fairly easy mon to predict excluding certain fringe cases.

I cannot actually vote, so I won't even pretend to but I wanted to put this out here before the voting finished and to give a view point I don't think I've seen on here. I apologize if this wasn't very coherent or if it was lacking in a certain way, this is my first big post on here and my first attempt at a suspect test so I'm still learning what is given a green light and what is not allowed. Thanks for reading, good luck on the ladder, and please feel free to comment back as I do enjoy discussion in return.
 

Ophion

It’s about the journey, not the destination
is a Pre-Contributor
Another user also brought up the fact that if Zygarde was removed, fire types would become more prominent. This is something of a concern, as a lot of the time it is hard to find very good answers to certain fire types (mainly heatran) in teambuilding. Zygarde has been something that has drastically helped against it, and I fear banning Zygarde would cause a ripple where we would be lacking counters to some extremely problematic mons in the tier.
If Heatran becomes broken by some chance due to Zygarde's ban, we'll suspect Heatran as it'd be broken checking broken at that point. Keeping Zygarde just cause it checks a few things isn't the best idea when some of these threats will become easier to check with Zygarde's strain on building removed. Also, look at it from the perspective that we're not looking at how it handles other mons, we're looking at it by how it influences the tier in terms of prep for it and it's sets and in this case, its influence is considered unhealthy and straining the tier.
 
If Heatran becomes broken by some chance due to Zygarde's ban, we'll suspect Heatran as it'd be broken checking broken at that point. Keeping Zygarde just cause it checks a few things isn't the best idea when some of these threats will become easier to check with Zygarde's strain on building removed. Also, look at it from the perspective that we're not looking at how it handles other mons, we're looking at it by how it influences the tier in terms of prep for it and it's sets and in this case, its influence is considered unhealthy and straining the tier.
Heatran was just one specific mon to point out, unless the plan is to suspect test everything Zygarde handles I don't see that being a viable long term solution. I think it's important to recognize that Zygarde is more than just how it sets up and handles things it counters, but also the metagame around it and how mons interact with it. Ignoring this completely misses out on the potential abuse from other mons coming in once the Zygarde vacuum occurs if it were to be banned.

Completely forgot to reply to the second point, whoops:
Thing is I don't think it is unhealthy or straining to the tier. I think the fact that it helps check certain mons means that it can be very helpful to teambuilding. Of course this is where the differing opinions come in. The long and short of it, from my point of view, is that I don't find Zygarde that difficult to handle while teambuilding but the benefits it brings are understated by those wanting to ban it.
 
Last edited:

Ophion

It’s about the journey, not the destination
is a Pre-Contributor
Heatran was just one specific mon to point out, unless the plan is to suspect test everything Zygarde handles I don't see that being a viable long term solution. I think it's important to recognize that Zygarde is more than just how it sets up and handles things it counters, but also the metagame around it and how mons interact with it. Ignoring this completely misses out on the potential abuse from other mons coming in once the Zygarde vacuum occurs if it were to be banned.
you completely ignored the second sentence of the first part. these things won't become broken because other counterplay will become more viable for things like Heatran or Zard Y or whatever when Zygarde leaves. and if those things become broken, it's the mon itself, not Zygarde. You're looking at things in a vacuum, not thinking of the other mons that become better with Zygarde's potential departure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ske
An argument I've seen in favor a banning Zygarde is that it's centralizing to teambuilding which I find odd. I've never felt like I had to run a specific Pokemon just to deal with Zygarde. When teambuilding I naturally end up having a Zygarde answer anyway because I need to wall a myriad of other threats in the meta game. For example I'm not running tangrowth/Bulu on every team because of Zygarde but because they all help with Greninja, Koko, and lando-t while offering alot of utility. It's not like with Naga when people were running stuff like AV tyranitar and AV empoleon or even Aegislash where Mandibuzz was only viable because of it's existence. The closest I ever felt to this felt is running bulk up Bulu but even without Zygarde in the meta I'd still run that because it's a fantastic sweeper.
 
you completely ignored the second sentence of the first part. these things won't become broken because other counterplay will become more viable for things like Heatran or Zard Y or whatever when Zygarde leaves. and if those things become broken, it's the mon itself, not Zygarde. You're looking at things in a vacuum, not thinking of the other mons that become better with Zygarde's potential departure.
I'm going to be honest I made a massive post and then deleted it because I felt like it was getting a bit too off topic. So I am now posting this and hopefully it's a bit smaller, less rambly, and more on-topic.

I wasn't ignoring the second sentence, it's something that I don't think we will agree on. From my point of view, I don't see the thing you brought up as an issue. I feel Zygarde has plenty of counterplay to it already, most of which isn't that hard to use in teambuilding. If you make a team with a Zygarde weakness, the results would be the same if you made a team with a Tapu Lele weakness, or a Hawlucha weakness, or a Charizard-X weakness and so on. I was simply attempting to agree to disagree, but if that wasn't clear then I understand. It wasn't to ignore a point, it was just that I don't think we'll get anywhere going back and forth when there are other things I think we can actually come to a consensus on.

As for your point about a vacuum, I am trying to do the complete opposite of that. By pointing out what Zygarde handles, I am trying to show that Zygarde has more to it than making a mistake in scouting to have a mon punch a whole through a team. I have to disagree with your statement that the mon was "broken itself" because removing counters and checks to many, many mons in all of the tiers could end with a similar situation, even if the mon itself would normally be very healthy. I feel that Zygarde, as it stands in the tier, benefits more than it harms and what harm it does do is overstated. Any mon improperly scouted can be a problem, any mon not prepared for could cause a lost game. This is the nature of Pokemon. It is not possible to prepare for every single situation. A ban should only be brought in if the mon in question is so blatantly overwhelming that even having multiple counters/checks is not enough, and Zygarde simply does not fit the bill for me.
 
There is a lot of pokemon that has to be considered when it comes to putting together a team. The main ones to consider are how to resist Tapu Lele, how to prevent Tapu Koko from doing what he wants, and how to break stall with Toxapex, just to mention 3 cases.
It is completely normal to prepare for things like these.
My No BAN argument is that Zygarde needs a lot of support to get the boost needed to sweep, and the other self-sufficient sets need a lot of rival mach up in favor.
And another thing about what is mentioned that if you use the movement Z steel and if you use dragon or earth .....
Any pokemon boosting with Z movement is uberized. There are dozens of examples in any tier. So I do not see logic in judging him by that point that is very similar to many like Volcarona that can defeat Chansey and Toxapex, Kartana giga impact Z for Zapdos etc.
Even using the Choice band you can not defeat some defensive pokemon with Stealt rocks by hitting them neutral or earthquake and much less with Thousand arrows.
And there are others like Magearna that resist well a Thousand arrows +1, and Mega Mawile resist a Thousand neutral. That complicates trying to sweep or even revenge killer.
An example of team that was not even designed for this generation is that of Wish Killer, which only has a reliable Zygarde offensive check, but no "reliable" answer for the Zygarde dual screen booster. And even so it has many replays of how it can be arranged perfectly to deal with the most annoying sets. And yet he always manages to deal with Zygarde effectively. I bring this detail because I think Zygarde lacks enough power to be able to be broken.
Here are some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-831510303?fbclid=IwAR2Ya1_GC3MldT1lDVDRyu1CftWLnCVaQIRq9nNgBoySNRV2lBIoVfzlqNs

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-821021298

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784748899

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784722785

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780650430

They are the few that I found where Zygarde participates
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top