Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - A Thousand Miles [Zygarde is now Banned]

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Forget the fact that your explanations above on various supposed countermeasures are questionably and the fact that you spam Unaware Clefable + Acid Armor Reuniclus stall on the ladder. If all you boil Zygarde down to alone is simply the offensive variants being able to break through and the Glare set being able to cheese through, then you're missing the point of the suspect test and perhaps Zygarde's effectiveness in itself. I'm not saying Zygarde is broken, but between three Z moves, 2 boosting moves, 2 status moves, the ability to run Rest or Substitute, and a plethora of viable spreads, Zygarde has ways to circumvent a lot of Pokemon on your list that you simply credit far too much. You have to consider things in a broader sense here.

It is entirely true that Zygarde can only run one set and you can oftentimes deduce it from team composition or gameflow, but that does not mean that it has some "4mss" or is "limited" more than other things so much as it has ways to adapt to counterplay. I really think that you and a lot of others should stop trying to look at things in such a linear fashion and instead read the OP and consider things in the context of actual games. Posting a list of checks/counters is generally a linear way of thinking. Instead, try to consider all of the options and play a bit more with it. Pokemon is a games where checks and counters exist, but it's also a game where things are more complicated than just simple checking and countering when other elements come into play such as progressive chip, status, hazards, team support, set uncertainties, etc. Yes, Zygarde is stoppable in the confines of the current metagame and I am not entirely sure it is broken given how stoppable it is. I do not know what I am voting, but I know I that if I am going to vote DNB, it will not be because of anything remotely along the lines of your list of checks/counters or your bizarre limitations of one of the metagame's most versatile Pokemon.
Clearly I've done a poor job of explaining my position and I wanted to clarify my zygarde experience since your brought it up even though arguments should stand on their own merits. I have built 4-5 serious teams in the last two months including the two RMTs in my signature (which were chosen because I think they're interesting not because they're my best), all of which have peaked in the 1850~1950 range. One of those teams had glare zygarde on it, the others all had multiple natural checks without me even gameplanning for zygarde. For the record, only one was a stall team as that's not my natural playstyle and I've been doing a lengthy tour of styles as preperation for making a great balance team. Choose to listen to or disregard my opinion based on my credentials if you want.

I have great respect for Zygarde's versatility and ability to weaken teams for its team mates, or hax through its counters in a pinch. My point with the lengthy checks + counters list is that Zygarde DOES NOT constrain team building, like at all. When I build a team there are certain mons I make sure I have an answer for, zygarde does not make that list because I can randomly assemble 6 mons from the VR and have a good chance of having 2-3 answers to it. Now don't get me wrong Zygarde is good and I agreed with the nom to send it to S-tier. It contributes to winning games, it just doesn't win every game.

Your "broader sense" seems to be hinting at zygarde's unparalleled versatility as its broken-ness. Philosophically, I don't see how versatility alone is a threat. Maybe its because I play ladder and not tour, but unpredictability to me is part of what makes this game fun. You want a complete information game with no hax, play chess not mons. I consider zygarde's versatility a good thing, I've played entire games assuming a mon (not jsut zygarde anything that viably runs multiple sets) was one set only to discover in horror at the end of the game it was something completely different. I just don't see why this is a threat to the meta. I have the reqs to vote and will be voting no unless I see a really convincing argument why its broken, but what I've seen so far seems to be mostly sour grapes about parahax mixed with it can beat this specific counter if it runs XYZ set.
 
Hi yes, I feel like Zygarde shouldn't be in OU. One of the main problems is his bulkiness and ability to withstand ice moves (sometimes) and live with around 10%-ish. And one of the more annoying strategies is Substitute + Dragon Dance Obviously against an ice type while Zygarde is +1 in Speed and attack he can outspeed said ice type and substitute which then turn into mind games. The only way around this is a fast mon like Weavile with ice shard but besides that, Yes he should indeed be in Uber and such.
 
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I was hoping to avoid having to defend the entire list. But a lot of your response are just flat out inaccurate or we have different definitions of taking something well. By my definition if you aren't 2HKOed and have reliable recovery you take something well.

Lando-t: yes, it isn't a counter hence why I labelled it a check
Tapu Bulu: SD synthesis or bulk up beats coil bar insane hax.
Clefable: 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Given Clefable has reliable recovery and depending on version is either immune to hazard damage or boosting, yeah its a solid counter to some zygarde sets while checking others.
Reuniclus: 40 from CB is not a big deal when you take zero hazard damage. Also with acid armor, does not give a damn about boosts.
Scizor-Mega: 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 115-136 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, um yeah it switches into band just fine. True that curse has a decent shot at being crit by glare-coil before it can take it down, but literally hard counters every other zyg set.
Quagsire: 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Sure they might click outrage or toxic, but those are the only two losing propositions for quag as any boosting version is doing pitiful damage and quag can just break through subs at a leisurely pace for chansey to remove its para later.
Aggron-Mega: Always run with wish support. 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 144-171 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.
Buzzwole: Besides countering Bulu, Zygarde, checking ash, medi without zen and so on and so forth. Don't critique a mon if you don't know what it does.
Kyurem: Ok this should be converted to check, one of the mistake or two I alluded to earlier.
Cresselia: It doesn't matter if zyg is paired with ttar or if it gets toxicked, as this Trick rooms and is either breaking subs for days or lunar dancing on tar for some TR abuser to mess zyg's team up.
Most mons in italics: Keep zyg from winning until their gone either by breaking sub for another to finish it off or outright beating it. Zyg can't come in on them either. Do they prevent zyg from spreading status and weakening teams no? Which was kinda the point of my post that Zyg doesn't sweep through teams unless they're severely weakened given the enormous number of checks that it has, and we're primarily talking about its ability to weaken teams for its teammates to win.

Zyg is just not that powerful offensively without 2 boosts and a LOT of the metagame can prevent it from getting those two boosts. So I ask again? Is glare so broken as to be worth banning zygarde over it?
Besides the fact that zyg can run moves and creativity to beat all these, if something has to eat 40% and be forced to heal up every time because any chip damage will make it die to zyg, are they that good ar countering it? The opponent will always abuse the turn you heal to do stuff. Thats what i meant by a lot of damage. Not that it is a 2hko.

Oh, and bulk up bulu does not beat coil zygarde at all. It literally loses 1v1. You dont even have to use arrows just pp stall it. To the dnb people pls dont mention bu bulu its triggering.

Edit: oh and offtopic but where did u see a medi without zen wtf ban that person immediately
 
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BK

I COULD BE BANNED!
is a Tiering Contributor
I want to say 2 words about this mon since im prob one of the players who wanted this suspect the most.
Like ABR alrdy said in the first post of this thread, this mon has a large viability of sets that can use and if by any chance (you dont even need to be that lucky) you have the right set at the right moment you can win the game just by playing 1 vs 6: some example are the games that Lyd used on his post.One of the thing that makes zygarde broken in my opinion is the fact that it (can) win(s) even against mons that are in the opposing team just to check it, such as Tang which loses to Z-Dragon, gets stalled by SubProtect Toxic and can also lose to SubGlare, Clef loses to Z-Steel, Z-Ground, Weakness Policy, Choice Band and has good odds to lose against SubGlare, i would not put Lando-T even as a check since it has 3 switchs to arrows from the cb set and others just destroy it, even Bulk Up Bulu aint a decent check to Zygarde since as all the other fairies loses to Z-Steel plus loses to SubToxic and cant even check SubGlare since it either gets haxed by an arrows crit (which is around 35.2%) or pp stalled even by being parad (you can try out yourself).
Everytime a new Check/Counter for Zyg comes out a new set that beats the new Check/Counter borns as well (Dragon Tail for Curse M-Zor is an example, so is Rest for Toxic users and so are Z-Dragon for Tang and Z-Steel for Fairy). This viability gives Zygarde the chance to be played in every playstyle (Stall as well) and never being a dead weight since is nearly impossible that this mon gets a match up that makes him not viable in even 1 single battle.
A thing no one mentioned is also how stupid this poke is behind Screens (and possibly Safeguard) making it even more bulkier and giving the chance to set-up against more mons and boost his stats with even less risks (status as well if Safeguard).
If this is not enough (even though it is always by my opinion of course) it gets a good trapping move such thousand waves that if used in the right moment can literally gift a win or a mon at least and a great +2 priority with 80% base power that can force many of his revenge killers out. Talking about revenge killers there are not either many pokes that can revenge kill it since after a dragon dance the only mons able to outspeed it are ScarfGren (that needs to be out of Espeed range) and a full-Hp Bulky Lando (that needs to carry HP-Ice and to not face a Z-Zygarde or WPolicy) and Tapu-Lele (who goes into a tie in the best case and needs Zyg to be chipped before), other sets such Coil that dont boost speed dont make Zyg easier to revenge kill since with his great bulkyness lives Leles moonblast (252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 324-384 (80 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery by only using the 192hp(405) needed to not get sub broke by chansey), Perts Ice Punch (252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 340-404 (83.9 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) Garchomps Outrage (252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 336-396 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) and many others you probably should already know.
So my thoughts are that this mon is too much for the Overused tier since it either wins or makes holes to let other members of the team have an easier sweep, just BAN this toxic and unbalanced mon for a better tier.
 
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My general feeling about zygarde being a dominant threat in OU is also because of how its hard counters are often too passive.
So to quickly list the main reliable counters to most sets: tangrowth, clefable, reuniclus, scizor-mega, hippowdon, mew, buzzwole. Hope I didn't miss something major.

Yeah tapu bulu is meh to me tbh, doesn't seem to me as a great counter to use.

To my experience, all the above pokemon apart from scizor-mega or maybe clefable has basically non-existent offensive pressure, which can be taken advantage by many other threats of the metagame. Well, zygarde himself can take some advantage over some of these pokemons as well. So to me countering zygarde is a pain, as zygarde can easily break momentum of the opposing team. Compared to other pokemon with similar roles (such as MCY), zygarde resists SR and has a great typing to switch in against a lot of pokemons, making it even more pressuring. Zygarde certainly gains a major advantage by MU against quite a lot of teams, which is unhealthy for the meta.

Just discussing about zygarde by itself tho, its not really a pokemon that powerful. It is versatile but doesn't really have a dominant set that is OP, unlike many other threats banned from ou. Zygarde does have the ability of come back when at disadvantage, but I believe this trait belongs to many boost based pokemons and shouldn't be pushing it towards being banworthy.

In conclusion, zygarde to me is a pokemon that is not overwhelming for the metagame by itself, but rather a pokemon that plays an important role on larger scale of the game. I'm still not very sure whether it should be banned or not, as it really is a special pokemon playing a special role in the current metagame.

Mod Edit: Side Note removed. Future suspects are not relevant to this discussion.
 
gonna be giving my thoughts too. i think zygarde is basically perfect on papper, you can look at the check/counter list and there is always gonna be a set that beats them. tang/bulu for example (which are prob the most common checks rn) lose easily vs sub toxic, bulu loses to sub glare and z steel too. stuff like sd gliscor is not beating sub coil unless its ice fang, and even then it still loses to dd offensive and is heavily pressured by band. scarf lando loses to almost every set, clef isn't reliable vs sub glare and loses to z steel/ground; the list goes on. however, i do wanna say that zygarde isn't as good in practice as it is on paper. from looking at the check/counter list you can think zygarde is totally broken and always wins every game, which isn't the case, you cant just play mindlessly in any matchup and think it will win. still tho, if your set has the right matchup very rarely will it lose, couple that with the fact that there are like 10 good sets it becomes impossible to prepare for. also even if you don't have the best set for a specific matchup it doesnt mean zygarde will just be useless, a band set can still do a lot vs a tang scarf lando type team for example, even if having sub toxic would be better. so yea, since i somehow got the free reqs after completely sucking in wcop, ill be voting ban.
 

talah

love language
is a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
a lot of people have already voiced my general feelings but thought i'd post anyway - I think Zygarde is an unhealthy mon & while it isn't some complete tier warping threat to the point of aegislash, it bends the meta more than anything else atm.

i wanna mainly talk about the elephant in the room - its ability to (buzzword)adapt to every meta change without fail. there's no real trend that will ever push Zygarde to a point where it's not that good. sure, this can be said about other mons as well but nothing else does it so drastically & so easily, since literally nothing has the amount of tools Zyg has.

defensive Lando: loses to toxic as well as band within a few turns.
Tangrowth: loses to toxic, Steelium after very slight chip, Dragonium(bad set)
Clefable: loses to iron tail(CB or Z), groundium
Reuniclus: loses to offensive dd, CB once glared(which it runs)

these are just some meta trends over the past year or so that Zygarde can very easily get through(and did) without deviating too much. I obviously didn't go through every single option it had to get through them, that would 1) take too long 2) I tried to stick to mostly a few sets to showcase that Zygarde doesn't need to go out of its way to beat multiple popular checks at once.

sure, it's not something that will sweep every game like Naganadel or that's literally unbreakable like its big boy counterpart(Power Construct) but it has the potential to do so virtually every game unless you dedicate half your team to beat it & ignore other big threats.

seriously, go through every non-stall team that's been used in SM OU in Snake 2 & OLT 5, there's a good Zyg set that can break it. bolded good because it doesn't need some wack unusable set to do it.

"but protean greninja can break every team in theory too!" greninja doesn't have access to boosting moves, doesn't have arguably the best move in the game, doesn't have ridiculous natural bulk or the ability to switch into so many things while still being an immense offensive threat.

"lando can beat basically all of its checks as well! it will also be useful every game!" basically the same points i said earlier lol, except it now has actual defensive utility so cut that ig

i don't wanna repeat myself too much BUT there's no other mon that can be such a threat both offensively AND defensively no matter what's going on in the meta. clearly the metagame has tried to make it not that good but it also clearly hasn't worked. literally every mon except zygarde has fluctuated in viability relatively significantly. Zyg's only fluctuation has been its sets, which constantly change & will do so no matter what changes.

this doesn't make it broken automatically, however, we've had enough time with the tier to know it's impossible Zygarde won't ALWAYS be unhealthy and won't ALWAYS be the most significant thing to watch out for.

i don't think zygarde is at the level of brokenness a lot of other banworthy mons were, but Zygarde's ridiculous (buzzword)versatility and (buzzphrase?)ability to adapt have reached ridiculous levels. BAN it.
 
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Hey there.

Zygarde is without a doubt one of the strongest mons in the tier.
It could fit in almost every playstyle, thanks to his splendid movepool, amazing stats and typing.
We all know how dangerous it could be, considering the sheer amount of movesets it could rely to, and how the snake manages to keep evolving to deal with the costantly adapting metagame.
But let's talk about the biggest feats of this mon: Thousand Arrows, a move that shaped the entire concept of "ground immunity" since the beginning of SM, Z Crystals, giving him the possibility to break even the sturdiest walls, and last but not least, Glare, a monstrous move with a whopping 48pp, capable of paralyzing even ground and grass types, with 100% accuracy!
Let's focus on the latter: while some may argue about this pokemon's lackluster 100 base atk stat (still not bad when thinking about boosts + z, or CB + big Stabs), one of his strongest sets revolves around Glare, giving him the possibility to benefit of his excellent natural bulk and typing for setting up Subs and multiple boosts.
Even if you bring some checks like Clefable, Tapu Bulu (Bulk Up) or Scizor (Curse), you will risk to fall before the effects of the infamous "yellow magic", or even a crit, which could likely occur.
But it does not end here, as Zyg's Subs with the aid of Coil are strong enough to endure moves from the latter duo, while Grassy Terrain helps him to recover faster.
Furthermore, a Zyg can also avoid such conflicts in the early/mid game, still paralyzing important mons, and coming right back later to steal a win, while easing the work of his teammates.
Speaking about checks like Bulu and Zor, guess why these defense-boosting moves have been rising (not the only reason, but one of the most important).
As many of you have already covering his other sets and aspects really well, I just want to emphasize how difficult is to deal with a WELL PLAYED Zygarde: revenge killing is not the easiest task, as Substitute + Glare, boosted Extreme Speed from offensive sets, Screens, Pinch Berries and excellent bulk are his allies, and checking him requires FAITH, especially when he keeps spreading his Glares, or when he unleashes a Z move on your check of choice.
Considering how many set-up opportunities this mon has, a Zygarde will probably deal severe damage, unless you're packing the perfect check for it. You can also hope for a choke of your opponent, but a well played Zyg will likely bring trouble.

Few words about cons: some of you may argue about the possible loss of a Heatran check (unless you're Rest Zyg, Toxic can be deadly, quick reminder), and most of all, a big threat for HO and Rain Teams, gone.
HOs will probably lose a big powerhouse and a deadly threat at the same time, while most of the Rains will appreciate the loss of such menace, turning them into even more dreadful weapons.

While I mostly agree about the latter reasons, I will vote BAN, as I think the presence of this mon in the tier is by no means healthy.
 
This is definitely an interesting one. Zygarde is one of two Pokémon in the metagame where I don't think that you can build a competent team without being at least slightly weak to at least one of its sets (the other being Heatran). One difference between Heatran and Zygarde is that Heatran at least has a list of offensive checks that will typically at least force it out (such as Garchomp, Mega Medicham, Scarf Lando, etc.) However, with Zygarde even its offensive checks can lose if it's behind a sub or has a couple DD boosts. While not every Zygarde set is going to beat a team I use, the fact that at least one Zygarde set can give my team nightmares is alarming, not to mention it can potentially hax through its counters with Glare. The fact that a Pokémon like Avalugg is not seen as a complete joke is a testament to Zygarde's huge impact on the metagame. Additionally, Slowbro and Buzzwole mainly see usage because of the snake. And none of these have slowed Zygarde down in any way and it still finds ways around them. I'm still not entirely sure what I will vote (if I will vote), but I'm leaning towards ban.
 

Guardsweeper

formerly RRahman1
Let me start off by mentioning that I’m glad Zygarde is finally getting the recognition it deserves. I’ve always been an advocator for Zygarde and have nominated it to S rank a couple of times (never happened quite ironically) but, to instantly get to the point, this suspect test entirely caught me off guard because

ZYGARDE IS NOT BROKEN

The prime pro-ban argument I’ve read in this thread is the fact that it is versatile and can beat its checks. This is flawed reasoning. Volcarona can do this too and is even more restrictive. Greninja can pick its own checks and counters as well and is just as versatile plus has the surprise factor of Ash-Gren. Heatran utterly decimates the entire defensive metagame with the right set. Ash Gren only needs hazards (which it can provide by himself) to muscle past its checks. Z-Lando sets have no counters at all. As a matter of fact, every single good offensive mon has the ability to adapt to and deal with its checks.

Besides, Zygarde cannot run every set at the same time and is therefore matchup based. Everyone is acting as if this is a good thing for Zygarde and while it is indeed true that Zygarde can win a game singlehandedly if it has the right set for the right matchup, the opposite is also true. Zygarde can also be a complete sitting duck if it does not have the right set so it isn’t all rainbows and sparkles for Zygarde anyway. Stop thinking like everything’s one-way traffic for God’s sake.

As I already claimed in my post in the VR, Zygarde has 4 great sets: SubCoil + Glare, SubCoil + Toxic, SubDD + Toxic and Setup+ Rest + Toxic. In addition to these, it has its Choice Band, Weakness Policy and Groundium Z sets which are definitely good, but not that fantastic and also its HO-exclusive Double Dance set.

Let me tell you this: I have never encountered any problems dealing with these sets and all it took me in order to do so was proper scouting with a Landorus and a defensive Grass. And it’s not like Zygarde’s forcing you to run these mons anyway so don’t tell me Zygarde’s centralizing because if Zygarde were to be banned, neither Tang nor Bulu nor Lando would drop too much in usage/viability.

As a side note, can we stop acting like Glare has a 100% paralysis chance?!? I’ve even seen posts claiming that Glare Zygarde wins the 1v1 against Tangrowth and that is outrageous. You can argue as much as you’d like to but don’t come up with arguments that imply you’re a clown.

Running a set that is not one of the sets mentioned above (so Dragonium Z, Steelium Z, RestTalk, SubProtect, Thousand Waves, Setup + Dragon Tail) comes with a severe opportunity cost and will always result in matchups where Zygarde won’t scratch a thing so please don’t bring these up because it’s a moot point anyway.

All in all, Zygarde may be a dominant and influencing force in the metagame but it’s nowhere near broken or impossible to handle or overcentralizing. I have collected my reqs and, quite frankly, am going to vote for NO BAN.
 
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Ban Zygarde. It's the mon that forces every team to have a bulky grass due to it having one move that covers literally everything else relevant in the meta, which it can dedicate either it's entire moveset to setting up on most of them or just not care about them anyways with Dragonium Z or even Iron Tail. Sub Toxic beats all of these aforementioned mons unless you force your Tangrowth to carry HP Ice, which is an invention solely for Zygarde. (You can argue it's still viable because of Chomp or that it can maybe force Landorus-T to explode early, but not letting Scizor set up and performing decently better at chipping Celesteela is a noteworthy trade-off gutted because of Zygarde. Hey, maybe just running Sludge + EQ if you want to hit both Tran and Bulu is nice)

This meta has enough mons that are insanely safe while forcing your opponent to dedicate an entire slot just for a specific mon. (Lele, Greninja, Heatran, Kartana) It's because of the ridiculous risk-reward USUM that this has been almost unanimously the worst OU gens and Zygarde is almost the poster child of having a ridiculous amount of pressure for simply existing.
 
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Want to write again cus most of the do not ban points i've been seeing are adding nothing constructive to the table & are actually harming their own side of the argument.
I came to this thread maybe hoping to see some strong arguments for both sides & maybe sway my initial opinion, but so far both here & on ps in general most do not ban points i've seen have been misjudging why people wanted zygarde tested in the 1st place.
I don't think anyone is wrong for thinking zygarde shouldn't be banned. What i do think is wrong is that a lot of the non ban arguments i've been seeing are based on the assumption that being pro ban means that u think zyg wins every game & is absolutely impossible to beat in every single game its in.
What I & most of the pro bans are saying is the fact that zygarde COULD threaten to win any given game, because it is literally impossible to cover every set with one team, isn't fair. Even if zygarde didn't end up winning the game, which in alot cases it probably wont, what pro ban are saying u can never, or very rarely, at any point in a game say u cant lose to zygarde no matter what the set is, bc it has too many very good sets to handle with 1 team.
This suspect imo boils down to 2 points of view. On one hand u can argue that all of this means that zyg doesn't belong in the tier. On the other hand u can argue that zygarde has numerous, viable answers that are easily usable even outside of checking zyg & despite the fact that it can get around each one individually, it still has to be using one of the specific sets that break through the core of choice in any given game. I felt the need to say this cus if any1 is arguing that zyg doesn't have a set break ANY ou team they are wrong.
I haven't even fully made my mind up on this fully myself but my point is that this test is NOT about glare sets, or any other set, alone being broken. Its NOT about zygarde winning every single game no matter what it comes up against with any set, so arguing against that is not what should be focused on at all.
 

talah

love language
is a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
Let me...
TL;DR at the bottom but strongly encourage anyone invested to read the whole thing.

this is probably one of the better anti-ban posts but it's also, quite frankly, very inconsistent and at times misinformed.

a big part of this stems from the fact you act like people are saying Zygarde will win every game without fail. this is very clearly not true; I'm very pro-ban but I'll be the first to admit Zygarde has games where it doesn't do a whole lot. that's not the point, though. the point me & others have been making is that it has the potential to win every game. yes, it won't do so every time but when u load up a team and face a Zygarde you can never be "yeah I have x and y I'm totally safe" because it's simply not doable unless you completely ignore a myriad of other threats.

furthermore, the comparisons you make to other Pokemon are largely pointless because they don't do what Zyg does.

Volcarona is an offensive terror and arguably a better sweeper than Zygarde is HOWEVER it requires extensive external support, is massively frail & prone to revenge killing and doesn't get nearly the amount of chances Zygarde does. The vast majority of games Volc only has 1 turn to sweep succesfully & usually ideal circumstances alongside. This is in stark contrast to Zygarde's plan; Zygarde gets a ton of chances to do stuff every game due to its typing, bulk & resistance to Rocks. It most often will not sweep immediately but it doesn't need to. Not only this but Zygarde can still be useful even if its set isn't the correct one - it can still switch into things pretty freely & force other things in for its teammates to take advantage of. Volc cannot. oh and another thing - Volc has strict counters & only 1, arguably 2 good sets, very unlike Zyg.

Greninja doesn't have Zygarde's boosting moves, its bulk or anything really, it's a wildly different mon that shouldn't ever be directly compared.

Ash Gren is literally the exact opposite of Zygarde: one single, albeit amazing, offensive & frail set that can be good literally every game. Like idk what more to say except that's it's word for word opposite of what Zyg does.

Lando is the best comparison and even that isn't accurate at all. Z-Lando is a breaker with some added defensive utility and of course, Stealth Rock. They share the ground typing & the ability to pivot into things even while being offensive but the comparisons end there and I probably made them look more major than the actually are.

Like I'm just gonna keep repeating myself if I go into more detail; Zygarde is an offensive powerhouse whilst at the same time being a defensive behemoth. It doesn't do one or the other, it does both exceptionally well & at the same time. Even completely uninvested sets are very very useful defensively and even the most defensive of sets are great offensively.

THIS is the point u & most anti-ban posters have failed to argue succesfully because you don't just address it. I'm either seeing people say either

  • it's great offensively and make 0 mention of its ridiculous defensive qualities(like ur post)
  • it's great & can switch into stuff but it won't sweep cuz it needs x set or y set or it's too weak
and then draw comparisons based on that. that's just short-sighted and again, isn't what you should be arguing against. There hasn't been a great anti-ban post while there's been multiple very good pro-ban posts. I think personally this speaks quite a bit itself but I'd welcome a good rebuttal, seriously.

going back to your post; I don't wanna get this to Finchinator lengths so I'll be less-wordy.

As I already claimed in my post in the VR, Zygarde has 3 great sets: SubCoil + Glare, SubCoil + Toxic and SubDD + Toxic. In addition to these, it has its Choice Band and Groundium Z sets which are definitely good, but not that fantastic and also its HO-exclusive Weakness Policy and Double Dance sets.
you forgot to mention possibly the best set right now, aka Toxic + DD + rest. WP is also very much not HO exclusive. You also mention its defensive sets as the best ones but then compare it to frail offensive breakers & sweepers.

Let me tell you this: I have never encountered any problems dealing with these sets and all it took me in order to do so was proper scouting with a Landorus and a defensive Grass. And it’s not like Zygarde’s forcing you to run these mons anyway so don’t tell me Zygarde’s centralizing because if Zygarde were to be banned, neither Tang nor Bulu nor Lando would drop in usage/viability.
I find very hard to believe you have never ever had any issue dealing with Zygarde unless you either don't play or don't play vs good opponents. I can't prove you wrong but I'm certain literally every player who isn't one of the above has experienced issues with the snake.

it also includes a big conjecture - sure it's unlikely that Lando will be affected negatively that much but you can't say Tang and Bulu won't get worse and be that confident in it. The metagame will change if one of its best Pokemon were to be banned and unless we toy with it for a good amount of time we can't say anything is for certain.

Running a set that is not one of these (i.e. Dragonium Z, Steelium Z, RestTalk, SubProtect, Thousand Waves, Setup + Dragon Tail) comes with a severe opportunity cost
you mention Dragonium Z, a set largely looked at as bad, Thousand Waves which hasn't been a thing ever, SubProtect which is very outdated, Setup + Dtail which is outdated just not as much, but you don't mention Rest + Toxic, Choice Band, Groundium Z, Double Dance, Weakness Policy. Those are all very valid sets that except for Double Dance and arguably WP can be used in really any team depending on that team's needs.

and will always result in matchups where Zygarde won’t scratch a thing so please don’t bring these up because it’s a moot point anyway.
again coming back to my point above - Zygarde not being able to flat out sweep doesn't make it useless. It can still status for its teammates, switch into something consistently & pressure what it normally pressures.

TL;DR: Zygarde is a multi-faceted beast that can't simply be compared to offensive mons like Volc & Gren. Its fantastic bulk & multitude of tools allow it to be useful every game; it won't sweep every game but it doesn't aim to do so. Its unparalleled versatility makes it unique but also unhealthy(IMO) due to it being able to serve as both a great sweeper & defensive pivot at the same time no matter the set. It doesn't have to use some garbage set in order to make a dent or be a useful slot every game, it has 8-9, maybe even more sets that work.

again, I'm really hoping for some actual discussion from this thread but nigh every DNB post has the wrong idea & doesn't argue what it should.
 

Guardsweeper

formerly RRahman1
TL;DR at the bottom but strongly encourage anyone invested to read the whole thing.

this is probably one of the better anti-ban posts but it's also, quite frankly, very inconsistent and at times misinformed.

a big part of this stems from the fact you act like people are saying Zygarde will win every game without fail. this is very clearly not true; I'm very pro-ban but I'll be the first to admit Zygarde has games where it doesn't do a whole lot. that's not the point, though. the point me & others have been making is that it has the potential to win every game. yes, it won't do so every time but when u load up a team and face a Zygarde you can never be "yeah I have x and y I'm totally safe" because it's simply not doable unless you completely ignore a myriad of other threats.

furthermore, the comparisons you make to other Pokemon are largely pointless because they don't do what Zyg does.

Volcarona is an offensive terror and arguably a better sweeper than Zygarde is HOWEVER it requires extensive external support, is massively frail & prone to revenge killing and doesn't get nearly the amount of chances Zygarde does. The vast majority of games Volc only has 1 turn to sweep succesfully & usually ideal circumstances alongside. This is in stark contrast to Zygarde's plan; Zygarde gets a ton of chances to do stuff every game due to its typing, bulk & resistance to Rocks. It most often will not sweep immediately but it doesn't need to. Not only this but Zygarde can still be useful even if its set isn't the correct one - it can still switch into things pretty freely & force other things in for its teammates to take advantage of. Volc cannot. oh and another thing - Volc has strict counters & only 1, arguably 2 good sets, very unlike Zyg.

Greninja doesn't have Zygarde's boosting moves, its bulk or anything really, it's a wildly different mon that shouldn't ever be directly compared.

Ash Gren is literally the exact opposite of Zygarde: one single, albeit amazing, offensive & frail set that can be good literally every game. Like idk what more to say except that's it's word for word opposite of what Zyg does.

Lando is the best comparison and even that isn't accurate at all. Z-Lando is a breaker with some added defensive utility and of course, Stealth Rock. They share the ground typing & the ability to pivot into things even while being offensive but the comparisons end there and I probably made them look more major than the actually are.

Like I'm just gonna keep repeating myself if I go into more detail; Zygarde is an offensive powerhouse whilst at the same time being a defensive behemoth. It doesn't do one or the other, it does both exceptionally well & at the same time. Even completely uninvested sets are very very useful defensively and even the most defensive of sets are great offensively.

THIS is the point u & most anti-ban posters have failed to argue succesfully because you don't just address it. I'm either seeing people say either

  • it's great offensively and make 0 mention of its ridiculous defensive qualities(like ur post)
  • it's great & can switch into stuff but it won't sweep cuz it needs x set or y set or it's too weak
and then draw comparisons based on that. that's just short-sighted and again, isn't what you should be arguing against. There hasn't been a great anti-ban post while there's been multiple very good pro-ban posts. I think personally this speaks quite a bit itself but I'd welcome a good rebuttal, seriously.

going back to your post; I don't wanna get this to Finchinator lengths so I'll be less-wordy.


you forgot to mention possibly the best set right now, aka Toxic + DD + rest. WP is also very much not HO exclusive. You also mention its defensive sets as the best ones but then compare it to frail offensive breakers & sweepers.


I find very hard to believe you have never ever had any issue dealing with Zygarde unless you either don't play or don't play vs good opponents. I can't prove you wrong but I'm certain literally every player who isn't one of the above has experienced issues with the snake.

it also includes a big conjecture - sure it's unlikely that Lando will be affected negatively that much but you can't say Tang and Bulu won't get worse and be that confident in it. The metagame will change if one of its best Pokemon were to be banned and unless we toy with it for a good amount of time we can't say anything is for certain.


you mention Dragonium Z, a set largely looked at as bad, Thousand Waves which hasn't been a thing ever, SubProtect which is very outdated, Setup + Dtail which is outdated just not as much, but you don't mention Rest + Toxic, Choice Band, Groundium Z, Double Dance, Weakness Policy. Those are all very valid sets that except for Double Dance and arguably WP can be used in really any team depending on that team's needs.


again coming back to my point above - Zygarde not being able to flat out sweep doesn't make it useless. It can still status for its teammates, switch into something consistently & pressure what it normally pressures.

TL;DR: Zygarde is a multi-faceted beast that can't simply be compared to offensive mons like Volc & Gren. Its fantastic bulk & multitude of tools allow it to be useful every game; it won't sweep every game but it doesn't aim to do so. Its unparalleled versatility makes it unique but also unhealthy(IMO) due to it being able to serve as both a great sweeper & defensive pivot at the same time no matter the set. It doesn't have to use some garbage set in order to make a dent or be a useful slot every game, it has 8-9, maybe even more sets that work.

again, I'm really hoping for some actual discussion from this thread but nigh every DNB post has the wrong idea & doesn't argue what it should.
First off, I apologize for giving that impression and I'll be the second one to acknowledge that Zygarde doesn't sweep every game. Besides, this is the exact reasoning I used to prove that Zygarde isn't ban-worthy. It doesn't sweep every game.

As I mentioned in my post, Zygarde is matchup based. In other words, yes it has the potential to sweep every game but that 'potential' is defined by the matchup it faces. You'll have certain matchups where Zygarde can just set up and sweep from the get go because it has the appropriate set to bust through its check on that team and you'll have matchups where it will merely get out to eat a Magma Storm or two, only to get walled by an incoming Tangrowth because it's the Glare set or whatever. All in all, Zygarde's offensive capabilities aren't always as rewarding as you'd like them to be and I see that as an argument for not banning it.

The comparisons I made to other Pokemon were made with the intent to imply that Zygarde is not the only one that can break through its checks. There were no other reasons for comparing those to Zygarde for the obvious reasons you stated.

Yeah, forgot DDToxicRest, but ehh...can't get every single set right can I? Lol, especially if it's about Zygarde. WP is offense inclusive I meant to say (at least, I haven't seen it in Balance yet).

Sure Zygarde has given me trouble but I can't say that I've lost a game because of Zygarde (that is, with a Scarf Lando and Tangrowth in my team) and I play 1800ish on Ladder so that's not too low I think.

Running a set that is not one of these (i.e. Dragonium Z, Steelium Z, RestTalk, SubProtect, Thousand Waves, Setup + Dragon Tail) comes with a severe opportunity cost
With 'these' I referred to the sets I mentioned earlier in the post (so every set except for those written in the brackets). I understand your confusion here though. And I did mention Band, WP, Groundium Z and Double Dance in the 4rth paragraph.

Zygarde's obviously a defensive behemoth, but I didn't mention it in my post because Zygarde doesn't use its bulk to wall things. It uses its bulk to set up (if it want's to pivot, it can harm its capability to set up and that's not what it wants) and with that, we're back to Zygarde's offensive capabilities anyways. But yes, I hereby agree that Zygarde has great bulk in addition to its offensive capabilities as an advocate for NO BAN, so here's your first.

And I know Zygarde can still status half a team if a sweep isn't possible but I don't think that makes it unhealthy. Of course, this is completely subjective.

Anyway, edited my earlier post to prevent any further confusion.
 
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Well my opinion won’t really matter but I’ll throw in my 2 cents

The main argument which is going around really is “Zygarde is broke because the sheer amount of sets which it has” which I don’t disagree with but we play in a meta where pretty much every mon that is S tier or A+ needs 2 checks (for example heatran) but the thing is when still pretty much every S tier or A+ tier mon needs 2 checks Zygardes movepool + sets are very good and beat pretty much every check there is. Even tang the mon which is regarded as the best zygarde answer loses to drag z/toxic sub. Now you wanna say that just run smth like clef + tang or bulu + mew but not every team can run those cores just for zygarde especially in a meta where heatran and Ash Gren exist. There’s also one more thing that makes Zygarde “broke” and that is it doesn’t really need to be offensive which I don’t think many people have touched on. Zygardes Defensive utility is also insane, it can pretty much wall shit like heatran (which is really big) but on top of that it can provide status support with glare/toxic.

For these reasons if i do get the reqs I will be voting BAN
 
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RRahman1 I definitely don't agree with you calling Zygarde a "Matchup Mon". Sure, with the right set it may or may not sweep the whole team of your opponent, but in case you do not have the "perfect moveset" Zygarde can still put in a lot of work.
It can chip or cripple whatever it wants and can also function as a very bulky answer to many threats. If you play it right Zygarde often also sweeps without the right set and that is what makes it so good.
So yeah Zygarde is definitely NOT a match up based pokemon. lol.
The argument that it doesn't sweep every game is whack af cause there is no mon that can sweep every game. According to that logic we would still play with Arceus or other stuff in the tier???

I could go on about how good I think Zygarde is, but I think everything I would mention has already been said so yeah..
I am gonna vote BAN. Just wanted to reply to that statement above.
 

Colonel M

Not very Cash Money of you
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
I might post later, who the hell knows, but since this is a frequent occurance I want to remind people to read everything listed here if it is your first time posting in a Suspect Thread.

The discussion so far at least has been fairly civil so I'm thankful that we havent had to go to many extremes to edit or remove [actual] arguments. Just bear in mind - if you break one of these rules and even if it's your first time posting you're going to get a nastygram and some black coal on your profile too. And if I catch it - I'm not lenient. Pray the other mods catch you first.

Sorry to interrupt the discussion otherwise.
 
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I have pneumonia atm so I won't get as detailed as I would like, but now that I have the reqs I at least want to give some reasoning for voting no ban on this suspect test.

I read most of this thread and the post that really stuck out to me was Mob's. I completely agree that the current metagame is rather balanced and should not be drastically changed unless something is truly out of place. I don't think Zygarde is as strong as other pokemon in the metagame like Kartana and Magearna, so overall I think this ban would be a knee jerk reaction from people that just want a shake up (which is what seems to be the case from the reasoning I have heard from many people).

I also found ABR's comments about teams from last summer no longer being trustworthy to use now as very true when I looked back at my builder. There have been meta shifts and people have been bringing up new sets and builds consistently, so there is no reason to really force a ban that most people seem to be unsure of just for the sake of breathing some life into the metagame. I don't agree with how zygarde is being painted as incredibly overpowered, despite agreeing with how wide ranging its sets can be. That's always going to happen in competitive pokemon, every mon is capable of running some set that can break your team apart if played well, so banning a pokemon over a low chance that its set will have a good matchup seems very reactionary to me.
 
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This is actually a really interesting suspect, one of the few where I think it's completely viable to be on the fence about. Early generation suspects were often just silly - Pheramosa, Aegislash, etc. were all nonsense or we were suspecting something that was just wildly not fun to play. Zygarde really is neither of those, I think we can all admit, but it definitely sits on that edge.

I'll be upfront in that I'd probably have preferred Heatran to be suspected lol but I doubt that will ever happen.

For Zyg, I'm genuinely unsure what I'll vote. It's so fucking good and offers such a huge amount of actual use in almost every single game. There are very rarely matchups where you will get 0 utilization out of a Zygarde. Even if the opponent has Bulu, Tangrowth, or Slowbro or something you are still able to force switches with a bulky attacker that remains a threat very often.

That said, a lot of times I don't really think it is "oppressive". A lot of teams can check it without becoming too funky (like Choice Scarf Gengar, for example). I ran a goofy Bulky Offensive in the suspect climb, and while I didn't face a ton of Zygs unfortunately, I felt fine against the ones I did between a CM Clefable (general setup sweeper) and an HP Ice Zard-Y (lure, offensive check).

The more cheesy sets are really what's causing this question to be asked now, unfortunately, and this seems like another one of those cases where if it just didn't have Glare we would probably never have this suspect. However, unfortunately, it does, and sure it's annoying to watch Zyg get a handful of paras through what otherwise should be a fine check. All that said, though, I'm really fully undecided at the moment and will wait to see what other folks say before making a decision.
 
Zygarde is a pokemon that personifies the phrase, "Jack of all trades, master of none." Zygarde is incredible in the sense that it can muscle through would be checks, but as RRahman1 said a bit earlier that is completely dependent on sets.

Same could be said about Landorus-T, Magearna, Heatran, and Greninja as well. What makes these pokemon stand out more then Zygarde in my opinion, is that they are more specialized therefore more consistently viable on a team. Some examples are Heatrans dominance over defensive teams, Magaernas mixed setup and trick room, Landorus-T as a offensive support, and Greninja as an offensive support as well.

On the other side of things, Zygarde's many options and great 108/121/95 defensive stat line are what make it potent of many teams with its flexibility. It can devour many strong moves of the meta (including z-fly Landorus-t, a small chance to live an ice punch from Mega Swamp, even with no bulk investment, etc.) and fire back with either status, or the extremely powerful thousand arrows, which further narrowed its list of checks.

This is a weird suspect in the sense that it is hard to say if this Pokemon is worthy for ou, or simply too powerful. I say NO BAN for the reason that Zygarde relies on its varied moveset to do well. One set might do very well against Team A, for example, but Team B is able to leave Zygarde a sitting duck. This makes it a somewhat polarizing Pokemon, compared to past suspects such as Pheromosa, Marshadow, Aegislash, and Naganadel.
 

Tace

formerly TaceBreeze
is a defending Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Alright might as well leave my 2 cents in on zy, most of the shit I’m gonna say has been repeated already but who cares. I think zy is over the edge and more or less unhealthy for just the strain it puts on teams and how it has a way to break past all of its ‘answers’. In some sense you can say the same for prot gren and volc but they aren’t on the level zygarde is. Protean gren doesn’t the same setup moves that zy does and provides no defensivs ultility to most teams, volc requires hella support to be efficient, which zy really doesn’t. In this same regard zy only needs 1 move to be as good as it is while things like volc has to choose what it wants to lose to. Also zygarde is never going to outright win every game like most of the no ban arguments in this thread have basically stated. It’s always gonna have the few games where the one of the 4 rly good sets it has atm won’t that great. I’m kind of just rambling at this point so I’ll just wrap it up with the fact that zygarde has and more than likely will continue to adapt to every meta shift that happens. Still on the fence about this personally but I’ll more than likely vote BAN for these reasons
 
I want to leave my opinion but because i don't want to repeat what has been said above, I will simply limit myself to mention a couple of things that have not been mentioned or given special importance (if I am not mistaken)
Beyond its absurd bulk and the versatility of his sets, which as many have said : players can't be prepared vs Zygarde (always losing in at least one or two of its sets) and they pray that they are not playing vs THE set that wins or simply not GLARE - retarded move you can use without fear and to provide support to the entire team (always forcing a switch in to scout the set with Tangrowth/Mew/Clefable/Landorus/Reuniclus or whatever you have and getting paralyzed that means you will not be able to do what you want, for example : win a cm war / put sr / tank a hit while you clicked recover/wish...
The Lando Scarf is useless against glare, its defensive set loses in many turns to either use rocks, defog or uturn. Next, Reuni loses its capacity of set up, key many times allow you to make a stay in against a lot of offensive mons that can switch in . Mew which was supposed to be one of the best response to Zygarde, however it needs certain speed to do its job well, is easily under pressure (rocks+para).
It is very easy to build around Zygarde paralyzing walls with Medicham/Lopunny or other mons that can break a team without difficulty or on the contrary using them to break and using Zygarde to clean. Secondly, Zygarde can be spammed vs BO/Balance/HO.. All these things in a mon that is able to tank any move not super efficient and some super efficient moves.
In fact, there is something i want to mention, its double type that makes it able to not be pressured by rocks. In a way, it reminds me Gross for its ridiculous double type, you can put it in any team. I think the Ban is the right thing to do and it will be worth. This mon is easy to play and it fullfils a function both defensive and offensive. For the work that does in general, its type, its "Thousand Arrows" and its capacity to play around the hax/glare, I think people should vote ban to reward skill and not luck.
 
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Over the past year my ability to play OU has had a steady increase, this will be my first suspect test that I will be able to meet reqs for in OU, so in order to make the most informed decision on whether to ban or not I have read alot of comments and am keeping an open mind for the moment. However I would still like to outline my point of view on zygarde and the reasons why I am for/against a ban.

Rather than raging about all the different sets and their ability to beat all different kinds of potential counters/checks I would like to first simply acknowledge their existence and revelvance with being able to beat alot of different things depending on the set. For this reason I would want to ban zygarde as clearly on paper it could be a nuisance build against. Ok we all understand this.
The point I would like to make that does contradict this a little is that I can be difficult to work a way of beating every zygarde into your team even if some things like tang, bulu and clef are super splashable as they have other uses in checking other major threats (note that I address the fact lots of checks automatically fit onto a team for other reasons)

To illustrate my point better I would like to use the example of suicune who I'm sure everyone has been destroyed by before, in fact in some games it wins from preview, bringing it back to zygarde, I believe some games zygarde can be viewed in a similar way. Let's say you have a tangrowth and a clef - they are both solid zygarde checks as I'm sure we can agree, if your opponent had a camoflage set up zygarde then how would you beat it? It essentially wins from preview just like suicune (occasionally) does. And for the sake of this argument I generally lean a little more towards ban, it sucks to lose to something from preview and it takes the word competition and shoves it in the bin.
Now I am by no means saying that this makes zygarde completely broken, but it for sure makes it strong, and odiously it's important to note that some games it does nothing at all, but at the end of the day all Pokémon have their uses and it's not unsightly see Mons being sacked in the highest quality games.

Finally my last argument can be summed up as "is zygarde fun to play against" and when you take into account how f*c*ing annoying it can be to play against I think there is strong grounds for an answer of no. And it comes back to the fundimental point of playing Mons - which I guess is to have fun - nobody can try and convince me that when they first picked up a game boy or ds cartrage that they had in mind "oh this is going to piss me the f*c* off, I better buy it". So why should we endure a Pokémon that makes the game less fun.

In conclusion, zygarde is very strong but maybe not completely broken, nor is it unbeatable within the meta as every set can be beaten by one way or another, however it does sometimes get a really good matchup (depending on set of course) and can win the game with little difficulty, it can also be really sh*t to have to play against which goes against the fundimental reason that I at least play pokemon. For this reason I currently lean towards a ban, however as I said at the start I will keep an open mind and I will be open to a polite and sophisticated argument to try and convince me otherwise.
 
What makes Zygarde such an interesting 'mon and why this is a cool suspect is because Zygarde is so great on both sides of offense and defense. Or, more specifically, Zygarde is so versatile and effective because it has one specific thing that ties all of it together; Thousand Arrows.

Thousand Arrows is just straight nonsense; it gives the type-matchup system a thousand middle fingers, which allows it to run whatever three other moves it wants with incredible ease. Zygarde has existed in the past without this move and only got so far. It is also why Landorus-T isn't being suspected despite having higher viability and usage, because it is always clearly bothered by something: most sets get walled by Skarmory or Celesteela, Flynium Z is pretty cool but gets stuck with a useless move after Superman Skyblast is used, and hope to god that you used it right, lead sets just exist to use Rocks and then Megumin a turn later, etc. All sets are great, but have pretty specific issues that are pretty fair with the game's mechanics. What are you gonna do, Gravity? LOL

You could make similar comparisons with anything else in the tier, like Greninja, who can certainly ruin one's day with its versatility, but it doesn't quite have enough to be fully overpowering and can't boost itself, and it gets decked by priority or Scarfs. See, versatility isn't bad for the most part, but it's about the limits.

Meanwhile, Thousand Arrows just makes too much sense for Zygarde with all the other options it has at its disposal, and the only real "weakness" it has is that it can't run six sets at once. But whatever set that it does run can be great because Thousand Arrows basically has no risk. It greatly narrows the number of things that can combat it efficiently, and then everything on that list has an effective answer in turn, making Zygarde such a case-by-case basis on how to deal with, unless you use like five defensive walls at once, which you won't do.

I'd like to note that I thoroughly blow ass at this game, so I probably won't make the requirements needed to vote, but I'm in support of any action to be taken. If I had my way, I would simply ban Thousand Arrows as that is the real problem, or at least Thousand Arrows + Zygarde-50 so that it doesn't bother Zydoge in the lower tiers, but I understand that The Council does not favor oddly-specific decisions like that, so perhaps it would be best to just tear out the problem by its roots and ban Zygarde itself.
 
Im leaning towards not ban. Its pretty threatening but Im more scared of ash gren or tran. Also the whole "your team will always be weak to a zygarde set" is absurd. I flutter around 1900 on random names and play everything but stall. Most of my teams deal with zy just fine by proxy of other threats. And few have cores that will I believe beat every set. Something like bulu+reun definitely stops any set zy can run. Fairium koko+growth. Unaware clef with heal bell+growth. Honestly now that I think about it pokemon that doesnt care about status+growth will stop it more times than not. Also people mentioning the most fringe of sets seems intellectually dishonest like the opposing player cant be running some stupid shit like taunt bulu. If were giving zygarde every ridiculous set possible please lets do the inverse. People acting like the most threatening set is the glare one I dont get it. You are not beating growth ever with that. Reun sets up on you. Clef is a counter albeit shaky without bell. The scariesr set has always and always will be double dance under screens. Now if that was the primary reason for a suspect I could perhaps understand. But people barely bring that one up, weird. That and any one with toxic are scarier than glare imo. That one is literally luck. The double dance set is the most consistent set in SM. And even with that it has enough counterplay for me to go this isnt broken. The thing doesnt even constrict team building. You will still run bulu for ash, growth as well. Reun is capable of 6-0ing teams at preview so itll be used. Clef is somewhat of a liability now but finds room on some builds. Lando is omniprescent. And these are just switch ins. The amount if things that can revenge kill it or force it out are innumerate. Yes its a threat. But its never even been S and people are saying its bannable and is centralizing? Bullshit. Ash gren and tran, hell even mag is more centralizing as everything that hells check them checks zygarde as well. Im getting reqs and voting no ban because this sus is preposterous. I shudder to think of this meta without zygarde and mag and tran still present. Like seriously.


Sidenote: Ive played thousands of games of SMOU. Ive seen camo zy referenced in this thread more times than I seen it in match. Its a meme. Stop acting like its some shit that is actually a pervasive set on the ladder
 
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