Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - A Thousand Miles [Zygarde is now Banned]

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While some pro-ban people argue that the pro-DNB use the wrong arguments, I think that the opposite is true too.

The entire pro-ban argument seems to hinge on the fact that Zygarde's "versatility" is the main problem, because he can always find a way to beat his checks/counter when he has the right moves and proceed to win the game. I'd say this is also true for Heatran and especially Landorus-T too. I might not have always played high on the ladder, but I lost way more games making the wrong prediction on a Lando set than a Zygarde set, especially with Z-moves.

The real problem for me is that Zygarde has both Thousand Arrows and Glare (or Toxic, but to a lesser extent). Virtually nothing resists both at the same time: Glare can paralyse everything but Electric types and TA is always super-effective against them. Zygarde can always freely press Glare because no Electric type like Zapdos or Rotom are ever going to switch into a Zygarde, even if they scouted Glare. Toxic is kinda the same but at least there are a few things that can work against that (namely Scizor).

If Zygarde does get banned I hope it's on those grounds, rather than because it's "versatile". I think it's an interesting mon that we should try to keep in the metagame, but I don't see a Thousand Arrows or Glare or TA + status ban being a viable solution, so it might need to go. I don't have the time nor the energy to try on get the reqs, so I trust the actual voters to make their decision to the best of their knowledge.
 
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TL:DR of Entire Thread

No ban: It has a bunch of good mons that prevent it from sweeping

Ban: It can beat all those mons with the right set, plus it puts in work when it doesn't sweep.

Feels like the two sides are talking past each other, and as a member of team No ban I'm going to try to get through one last time to team ban (or at least convince the neutrals).

Zygarde is not being suspected as a sweeper. I know this, everyone knows this. Sure it can sweep and is a potent sweeping threat to weakened teams, but there are like probably 15 mons that are more dangerous offensive threats to clean the house. Just to name names, Volcarona is a much scarier offensive threat, but obviously has significant flaws that keep it from being broken. What none of those other mons have are a double digit number of viable sets and the ability to put in work even when their counters are present. Zygarde can glare everything under the sun, or toxic the things glare doesn't bother or just spam thousand arrows because it is truly a great move. Yeah its a good mon, but it seems to me the ban crowd is confusing good with broken.

Now there are other mons in the meta that are EXTREMELY consistent. Lando-t, Heatran, and Ash-Gren do things every battle. Heatran has extremely limited counterplay, and I think is probably the best comparison to zygarde in terms of just harassing opposing teams. Heatran isn't as versatile as zygarde but it is in my opinion is so much harder to play against. That said Heatran isn't broken because it doesn't break teams every battle. Neither does zygarde.

Now why should we not ban zygarde? First and foremost in my mind it doesn't constrain teambuilding. Mons that fare well against it one v. one in the meta abound and it has a lot of good counters. Second it does not win every game. By this I do not mean it doesn't sweep every game, I mean it doesn't open the holes its team needs to win. Earlier I made the comparison of suspects past to the gengarite ban. Mega-Gengar had no hope of sweeping a team 6-0, but it was unhealthy because it would open holes for its team every single game. Zygarde just doesn't open holes with that consistency.

Then there's the versatility argument. I don't care that the mon keeps adapting to the meta as long as its not broken at any point in time. The meta keeps adapting back as well. From a playing against it perspective having 11 viable sets some of which punish but many have the same counters doesn't make it any scarier to me than other mons that have 2-3 good sets that punish the others counters hard. In this respect having 11 sets makes it more flexible to fit on teams than it is scary to face. Zygarde can be what your team needs, but at the end of the day its only running one set.

Does zygarde promote skillful play? You need to tailor your zygarde set to fit your team. You also when playing against zygarde need to game play against its many variants. Double dance is a perfect example of a mon that needs skill to play. You need to figure out at what moment to press with zygarde and which order of boosts/sub to do. If your opponent has zygarde counters (they do) you need to figure out how to remove them. Certainly a lot more skill than say mega-medicham, click fake out click high jump kick or char-x dragon dance click flare blitz. The only zygarde set that isn't very skillful in my opinion is glare. I think we can all agree that yellow magic is shitty, luck based and overall just annoying. That said its been a game mechanic since the very beginning and there are ways around it. Playing against zygarde, scouting its set without getting crippled is a skill as well. So yeah, I think zygarde promotes skillful play in part because of its versatility and because it has a lot of options.

So hopefully with this post I've cleared up some misconceptions of the No-Ban stance. To summarize: Does zygarde constrain team-building? No it has a lot of viable checks and counters. Does zygarde sweep every game? No. Does Zygarde open holes that win the game every game? No. Does Zygarde do something every game? Mostly yes, but sometimes no. Is Zygarde matchup dependent to either win by sweeping or opening a hole? Yes. Is versatility alone worth banning a mon for? No. Does Glare suck to play against and is a brainless strategy? Yes, but your issue is with glare not zygarde. Can zygarde beat its counters running the right set? Sure, but it can only run one set at a time.
 
I used to only use dd zyg or sub coil glare zyg, but reading this thread and playing/watching more games has showed me more sets. These sets make zygarde great. Personally, I think zygarde is not broken, because each set has counter play. (i.e. curse scizor for toxic variants and tang for dd ta (without drag z) and double dance sub). You can't handle all of them at once, but that is part of the fun of pokemon. During team building, you must concede that you can not handle every mon. Some mons are just good vs your team and you are just force to play aggressively around them. This doesn't make them broken. Versatility is a strength of zygarde, but it can be said about a lot of mons. Just because it can beat a supposed counter to a check doesn't make it broken. Plenty of mons punish you for reading wrong.
 
Thinking back, this brings me to think of another pokemon in uu, that is just as powerful (in comparison to metagame impact), Terrakion. Terrakion, just like Zygarde, is extremely threatening with any of its sets, whether it be Choice Band, SD Rockium, or Choice Scarf, all cover each others weaknesses decently well. CB busts through many defensive teams with its raw power, but looses to Slowbro, Doublade, and Scizor. SD Rockium is able to beat all of these, granted you have substitute up, and can bust through most anything in uu, often requiring a sack to leave terrakion vunerable. Zygarde on the other hand, is different in the sense that it focuses more on its variety, with access to coil, d-d, thousand arrows, or the dreaded glare. Zygarde is able to paralyze most everything with one move, and proceed to try and sweep. Does this mean Zygarde is an oppresive force in the metagame that is completely unhealthy? No. Zygarde is balanced (but annoying) and belongs in OU. I have seen many people mention the fact that pokemon such as avalugg and buzzwole are being used to help handle zygarde, and point to that proving it is broken. That is flawed thinking fundamentally. For example, Slowbro, a lower tiered pokemon, is used all over the smogon landscape as a check to many physically offensive pokemon. Going back to our freind terrakion, pokemon like the aforementioned doublade and pallosand are being used to handle it. Does that make terrakion busted? Again, NO. You are allowed to think what you may, and I wont judge you for your vote, but I believe Zygarde is NOT BANWORTHY.
 

Srn

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Im pretty staunchly on the dnb side and I think that there are plenty of us, but I've seen like mayb 3-4 good dnb posts so I figure I should just borrow from them and post again, this time replying a little bit to pro ban posts i've seen. This is gonna be a bit long so imma just summarize at the end:

So yeah zygarde doesnt win every game, it doesnt always have the right match up, but it has the potential to have a good matchup vs every single of its own checks and its impossible to prepare a viable team to handle every zygarde pmuch. Zygarde can contribute smth useful every game even if it doesnt have the right set to pressures its checks, so its not like its inconsistent either.

Some pro ban posters have said that bc zygarde has a set to beat every check, this places strain on teambuilding, and I disagree there because you were never going to handle every set of every pokemon anyway. This isn't RSE where you can expect to have an answer to everything; in USM ou there is no team that is weak to nothing, and its frankly pretty puzzling to me that people make a big fuss about their team not being able to handle every zygarde set. If I want to check lando-t, I use a celesteela, I ignore the fact that +2 z-stone edge blows it away, and I move on, because thats just how this game works now. To quote Talah, "when u load up a team and face a Zygarde you can never be "yeah I have x and y I'm totally safe" because it's simply not doable unless you completely ignore a myriad of other threats," is correct, but that applies to every threat in USM ou, you just can't be prepared for everything either way. Of course its not fair, but if it was unbearable, then we would have made many more bans much sooner.

This is a pretty pessimistic way to look at it, but the overall message is that I think its silly to emphasize that you can't handle every zygarde set and use that as one of the main reasons to ban zygarde.


Another way to look at the teambuilding constraint argument is the abundance of checks to zygarde. Its obvious at this point that zygarde can pressure every check but it's not hard at aaallll to fit in 2 defensive checks into a bulky offensive team. You have stuff like defensive lando-t, tangrowth, tapu bulu, clefable, gliscor, mega latias, reuniclus, mew, mega scizor, Tapu fini, and mega slowbro and even less viable stuff like hippowdon, avalugg, mandibuzz, and buzzwole. Zygarde can beat every one of these with the right set over time, but its also important to remember that each set has a SOLID answer; no set is impossible to handle. Like a few posts have mentioned, you can very feasibly use 2, like reuni and RH tang, to comfortably handle almost any zygarde set you encounter. And even if zygarde toxics ur bulu or glares ur mega scizor, the game can certainly end at the hands of other forces like SD kartana before zygarde has a chance to take advantage of the pokemon its crippled. It's pretty obvious but it should be mentioned.

A lot of emphasis has also been placed on the fact that zygarde quickly adapts to new checks, and what I'm about to say is technically just me speculating, but I think that new checks will also arise to answer to every new set that zygarde comes up with. This has occurred before and will continue to happen; time for some buzzwords but THE META IS JUST AS VERSATILE AS ZYGARDE IS! As a do-not-banner thats what I believe, and if the reader as a pro-banner doesn't agree, then there's very little I can argue, because I think this is a pretty core belief. This is a feeling that can only be formed by experience imo.

But I feel like what hasn't been mentioned very much are offensive checks that can switch in on moves like toxic or a weak thousand arrows and threaten out zygarde. I get that stuff like sub/coil/glare will more often than not hax through SOME defensive checks like tapu bulu and mega scizor, and that toxic sets can also pressure checks like unaware clef, tangy, slowbro, hippo, etc but a set like dd/rest/toxic is going to be punishing offensive checks VERY poorly. And I think it's very important to emphasize this, because Zygarde is WEAK. Base 100 attack using a 90 bp stab move just is NOT STRONG by ou standards unless you slap a choice band and go adamant. This mon uninvested will BARELY 2hko even tapu lele, and if I'm using specs tapu lele+tangrowth on the same team (no evidence of zygarde constraining teambuilding here), dd/rest/toxic zygarde will have to choose between attacking lele or toxic'ing tangrowth. They'll probably click toxic the first time around, might toxic the specs lele, and will be forced out or blown to hell by a moonblast. This same situation can be easily forced by many other flexible 2 mon cores. What if I'm using kartana+slowbro? Kyurem-B+defensive lando-t? What if I toxic the wallbreaker that doesn't give a shit, or what if I attack the check and only do 15%? It's really not a good look either way. Pokemon like mega latios, tapu lele, kyurem-black, kartana, Choice band Bulu, manaphy, Tapu lele, weavile, Mega Pinsir, Hydreigon, Mamoswine, Garchomp(-Mega), Mega Heracross, Mega Swampert, and SD lando-t can very comfortably switch into a weak thousand arrows or toxic and proceed to force it out, and pokemon like protean greninja, mega mawile, mega medicham, magearna and a few others can switch into a predicted toxic and 1v1 zygarde from there. Ultimately, the early-game turns that zygarde can create for itself aren't always going to be very helpful or useful, as it can give dangerous breakers like kyu-b free turns instead.


And speaking of early-game turns zygarde can create for itself, I think some people are overrating how easily zygarde comes in on shit, and lets go through it thoroughly. Zygarde doesn't safely come in on heatran, it risks being toxic'd, steelium-z, and zygarde-weak teams have even run wisp heatran in the past, and burning zygarde is gonna bone it pretty thoroughly. Ofc, rest sets will not rly mind any of this, but rest sets come with their own weaknesses (letting in offensive checks) so lets move on. Toxapex was mentioned, and scald can burn and toxic can land, rest doesnt care, etc, next. Celesteela and Ferrothorn can definitely be set up fodder for sets like subcoil or double dance, but leech seed will allow other checks to come in more easily and while its not as detrimental as tran/pex without rest, its still not a free switch-in. Magnezone is pretty safe but sets like sub 3 attacks with steelium z or specs flash cannon can do a hefty chunk to zygarde, z-flash cannon is doing around 80% which is a solid hit. Volcarona have started to run buginium-z much more, and a +1 z-bug buzz can OHKO rest sets with rocks up. Zapdos can carry hp ice, Mega Sableye can wisp or start carrying foul play for dd sets, Gastro can scald burn/toxic, Victini's can do a bunch of weird stuff depending on weird sets (glaciate, wisp, etc), jirachi can u-turn, stuff like zard-y can run hp ice or wisp, etc. Toward the end, those stuff is almost exclusively for zygarde, but the point stands that zygarde does not get free turns as easily as people think.


If we're looking at the lategame and offensive dd sets, it's clear that zygarde can shine but there's so many other sweepers that are amazing in this tier at midlate game and I don't believe that dd z-move zygarde is exponentially better than some other threats like sg magearna, qd volc, or tons of other shit. The defensive utility it can offer is certainly nice, and it does stand out in this way, but it's often going to risk ruining its sweep in the process (tran or zone can basically kill you with a z-steelium for example). In this sense, zygarde is just a good end-game sweeper that doesn't stand out much from the other choices (unless ur under screens fuck its a megabitch under screens lets just ban screens). To tie this back to checks, offensive dd zygarde is a pokemon that will always have one or two roadblocks in its way to weaken and remove, whereas the right sg magearna or volcarona set can just 6-0 on preview sometimes.


We should also address choice band sets (and glare), which is a set that has managed to stay damn consistent throughout the usm ou metagame and the biggest reason is the consistency of thousand arrows. Ultimately though, cb zygarde really isn't that strong, its just that its move has good coverage. You don't ever see a pokemon tank CB kartana's stab without resisting it, but pokemon like mew, mega scizor, slowbro, and hippowdon can pretty comfortably tank thousand arrows and proceed to heal up or cripple zygarde without even resisting thousand arrows. Sure, you might take 40% and be taken advantage of by some other mon, but it's still pretty shit that the choice band mon is being so comfortably walled; your wallbreaker is not very independent in this case.
Thus, cb adopted to run glare, and while this has worked pretty well, it can get pretty cumbersome at times to be choice locked into a status move, potentially let other shit in for free, and basically just be put in a disadvantageous position. It has its own problems, like being blocked by misty terrain, giving electric types free turns, having poor synergy with tspikes, and letting mew paralyze you with synchronize. I do also want to echo Mob Barley when I stress that glare is not going to consistently let you suddenly break pokemon like RH tangrowth and avalugg. Glare doesn't break down defensive checks like toxic does, but toxic can let in wallbreakers for free (bc sets that run toxic are generally weak af), so its not no risk high reward either way.


As promised;

1. Its not awful that you can't handle every zygarde set, bc you can't prepare for everything anyway
2. Zygarde can beat every check, but every zygarde set can also be solidly walled and handled. No one set is impossible to handle.
3. Passive Zygarde sets like rest/dd/toxic can let in many wallbreakers with little punishment
4. Zygarde has good defensive utility but its not foolproof, it very rarely switches in with no risks and no drawbacks.
5. Offensive DD zygarde isn't amazing compared to other late-game sweepers, it usually has 1-2 pokemon that needs to be weakened or removed bc zygarde checks are ez to fit into teams, whereas others are much more difficult to prepare for.
6. Cb is consistent, but ultimately not that strong, and has only managed to stay relevant thanks to glare
7. Glare itself is very annoying and hard to deal with, but it can also be clunky (if cb) and does almost nothing to some defensive checks where toxic might've helped.

Dont run sub/toxic/glare pls
I will happily reply to polite pro-banners and clarify anything that might've been confusing, good luck gettin reqs yall :]
 
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Well, many people have been asking my opinion about this suspect, either because I have been spamming a lot of Zygarde variations lately in tournaments (and almost always having success when doing so) or because I have been arguing in favor of a suspect in OU for some time now, so yea there I go.

Firstly I need to say that this suspect is REALLY crucial right now, since we probably will not have any other in SM OU before the new gen gets released, plus Zygarde has not an obvious attribute that makes it ban worthy. It has many checks and counters, which seems fine at first, but none of those are reliable to stop the most used Zygarde sets at the same time (barring mew, it checks the most relevant variations but just dies to +1 Z-Stab anyway) and the main reasons that makes zyg an unhealthy presence are its uncompetitiveness thanks to its ability to wear down, overwhelm and/or lure supposing checks in such an easy way (and never having big drawbacks), an incredible capacity to support many offensive threats offensively and defensively (be it via wallbreaking or simply spreading bad status) while not needing much support of team mates to do its work, huge defensive stats to a bulky-offensiveish mon and besides it all, if thats not already enough, the fact that NOTHING is immune to its main ground-type move (also stab), which is definitely stupid and unbalanced, just by itself.

Talking about its versatility: no, it DOES NOT need the right set to win games, or even to do something in a game, simply because it has all it needs almost every time since Thousand Arrows always hits, and every single set works around wearing down supposed checks to either just spam arrows at some point later in the match by spreading its own bad status and coverage, or making team mates way more dangerous thanks to its offensive support, which is a thing that no other pokemon in OU does except for Greninja (thats also suspect material, by the way). And even when it has like "the right set" to win, seems absurd to me that a mon can have the right path to run over the opp's teams in such a recurring way. Literally every single used set has enough potential to be relevant in almost every matchup, and yes, it does limit the amount of options in a team building. I cant simply use tapu bulu and pretend like I dont have problems against Zyg, or even Tangrowth and Clefable: I need ways to check it and counter it too as a backup plan, because at least two out of the 5~6 MOST USED sets (I actually meant the most used, there are like 5 extra movesets that are also good enough) abuse these pokemon.

Some other things should be mentioned, like: bulky Tapu-Bulu (specially the BU one) DOES NOT check the main zyg set (coil + bad status), the Toxic version just wins for obvious reasons (also winning if your check is Tangrowth) and Glare gives room to outstall bulu's PPs since Horn Leech does not break Substitute in one hit after the Grass Terrain's effect goes away [calc] and Coil + Glare have such a big PP number that its really difficult to win in a scenario like this one (and im not even considering the SD + Synthesis version, whereas just loses pretty easily after getting paralyzed). SD + Ice Fang Gliscor is almost as good as mew when checking Zyg, except considering that you need to be faster to actually win the 1x1 AND can't simply throw it in the first time before checking the zyg set, otherwise you can potentially get paralyzed and just lose anyway (and will lose a considerable bulky to run so many speed too). Clefable, Latias-Mega and Landorus-T are fine checks but are way more susceptible to Zyg's natural ability to lure and wear down checks, since clef and lati hate getting paralyzed and landorus always gets chipped naturally against either zyg or standard threats during the games. I could even mention scizor but it always needs full HP to check CB arrows + it literally forces a 50/50 of who gets the crit first and zyg always has the substitute advantage + the paralyze factor on its side anyway so yeah, just another try to check broken zyg without many success.

Last but not least, the ground-type is known since the first gen as one of the best offensive types ever. Having ground immunities has always been one of the main things to consider when building a team because Earthquake gives a plethora of targets and a more than good coverage option to offensive threats, and after gen 4 earth power just added more sense to this need. Now, Thousand Arrows abuses this offensive type with mastery, ignoring ground immunities and making grass types the only answer to this move, which is not an issue to deal as seen by the zyg's coverage, typing, stats, etc.

Just to finish, here are some replays in where zyg was supposed to be checked but simply found a way to win or be relevant:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404270 - OLT Vs. Zuch - Got haxed a lot but zyg just did what its supposed to do and was a pain to deal with. I had tang and landorus.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400833 - OLT Vs. ABR - chipped his lando and just won with a DD version, showing how zygarde can just click setup and damage moves without drawbacks. He had clef and landorus.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400834 - OLT Vs. ABR - Was really difficult to him not getting overwhelmed by zyg + ts, id prolly not click glare vs his tang if I had not a plan to possibly lure that with landorus. free turns against an already passive mon is always appreciated anyway. he had tang and offensive counters.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395433 - Snake Vs. RedEmption - All I needed to do here was clicking arrows like twice vs his lando and then I had a clean sweep after a DD or two. Unfortunately I wasnt on my best day and he did what he needed abusing of a possible missplay by my part. Zyg was huge anyway, just wanted to show again that it doesnt have drawbacks in just spamming broken arrows.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-306812 - WCOP - John Vs. BlackOblivion - Not recent ofc, but evey time someone talks about zyg's ability to win vs anything this game comes across my mind.

I had a replay of a zyg winning vs BU bulu but I couldnt find it, I will try again tomorrow or w/e. From now I say that I will lose many teams if zyg gets banned because I really find it broken and spam as much as I can, but even considering it I think banning zyg is the way to go and the meta will develop positively after doing it so.
 
For me this whole suspect feels less about Zygarde itself and more on whether Thousands Arrows bypassing the standard ground inmunity is "too cheap/overpowered" for the metagame, but since banning a move just to keep one mon viable is silly, in the end it's far more practical to ban the whole thing outright (that, and allowing such measures would open up a can of worms I don't even wanna see be set free).

The mon itself may be fantastic and helluva versatile, but as many people have mentioned before, due to its 3MSS Ziggy ends up being very matchup reliant. And while the concept of a move bypassing inmunities can be pretty broken on practice, Zygarde's OK-ish attack + the presence of multiple OU viable ground resists mons and/or with sky high defenses usually make sure there will always be something that can handle one of its sets.

Is this enough to keep it on the tier? I honestly don't really know. The current OU tier has so much powercreep it's hard for me to tell where the line between "super powerful mon that can still be dealt with" and "using this thing is so cheap it literally can do/beat anything" lies, so I really hope this suspect may finally clear things up for good. If it doesn't, then....we might as well get used to it I guess.
 
Well I’ve been reading this forum for quite some time now and all the not ban arguments are the same. I haven’t seen any actual arguments.Its the same oh everyone mon needs checks and answers so what if zygarde needs more or I haven’t lost or had to throw in 2 mons just for Zygarde when making a team. The thing with those arguments is that just because you didn’t face a user who knows how to play zygarde doesn’t mean it can’t be banned and the every mon in this tier needs 2 checks omega lul argument should be discarded because Zygarde can even break through those 2 checks you chose because the vast variety of sets it has. One more argument has been spammed and that’s oh Zygardes mu dependent but it really isn’t. Let’s say the oppo has smth like mew + tang now you don’t see zygarde doin much this game but even if it gets annoyed by that core it can still glare and toxic spam, since zygarde won’t be doing much anyways risking a status on zygarde isn’t big as long as it sets up the end game for smth like volc let’s say. (I also said all of this in my last post though only touched on it briefly)
 
Well I’ve been reading this forum for quite some time now and all the not ban arguments are the same. I haven’t seen any actual arguments.Its the same oh everyone mon needs checks and answers so what if zygarde needs more or I haven’t lost or had to throw in 2 mons just for Zygarde when making a team. The thing with those arguments is that just because you didn’t face a user who knows how to play zygarde doesn’t mean it can’t be banned and the every mon in this tier needs 2 checks omega lul argument should be discarded because Zygarde can even break through those 2 checks you chose because the vast variety of sets it has. One more argument has been spammed and that’s oh Zygardes mu dependent but it really isn’t. Let’s say the oppo has smth like mew + tang now you don’t see zygarde doin much this game but even if it gets annoyed by that core it can still glare and toxic spam, since zygarde won’t be doing much anyways risking a status on zygarde isn’t big as long as it sets up the end game for smth like volc let’s say. (I also said all of this in my last post though only touched on it briefly)
If you toxic a mew your zygarde is effectively dead while mew has consistent recovery. Also how isnt its consistenly checkable/countered by common cores not an argument? This isnt a naga situation that requires like a vest tar or you auto lose. Its a myriad of forms of counterplay whether pedestranian or obscure. Will zygarde sometimes win off some rogue set? Sure. But Ash can also run poisonium gunk and kill bulu. And many people would say youre crazy and thats both a waste of a move and too rare to account for. But Im supposed to honor the threat of camo zygarde XD? I think ya'll really need to be honest here. And if you want to REALLY see a centralized game get rid of one of the only relevant tran checks (which it can beat anyway sometimes, no not broken at all though) and watch this tier devolve into chaos. Tran and Mag are wayyyyyy more liable to just easily beat counters with fairly normal sets. Magearna 6-0s stall by itself with pain split when chansey is supposed to be a hard stop. Tran can blow back zy itself with zmoves or status. Im honestly much more afraid of a set like OTR on many of my teams than Zygarde because if you play it like SG or AV you lose when it comes out. Mag constrains the game with what, 3 sets? Who cares is zygarde can run Camo/coil/stab/espeed. That set is garbage and if you lose to it anyway good job on the opponent. You got outplayed hard. There is no outplaying OTR mid game if you dont have like a chansey or M camerupt.

Im just still trying to wrap my head around how its too good for this tier. You have counters, you have checks, you have conistently more threatening mons higher on the vi list. Is thousand arrows really pushing it that much for you? A 90bp move coming off usually not fully invested 100 atk? Glare? Its annoying sure but Im not seeing it. I guess my thing is what is zy doing that is unskillful or broken. Ive used just about every set at ome point even the goofy camo one. To this day the most consustent is still dd screens yet glare seems to be the culprit mostly in here. Yes some teams lose on preview. But same goes most threats. If you dont have a few ash gren checks you will lose without fail. No need for hax or anything. Youll just lose period. Now I do not know how you would build a playable team without a couple because a lot of shit blanket checks threats now. Which is what Im trying to convery with zy. If you lose to zy consistenly with a squad you more than likely losing to much more than that anyway because his checks double as checks of other top tier threats and if you dont have several you are going to get rolled anyway. So in that way if it constricts builds you need to look at the whole S/A+ tier as well.
 
Well I’ve been reading this forum for quite some time now and all the not ban arguments are the same. I haven’t seen any actual arguments.Its the same oh everyone mon needs checks and answers so what if zygarde needs more or I haven’t lost or had to throw in 2 mons just for Zygarde when making a team. The thing with those arguments is that just because you didn’t face a user who knows how to play zygarde doesn’t mean it can’t be banned and the every mon in this tier needs 2 checks omega lul argument should be discarded because Zygarde can even break through those 2 checks you chose because the vast variety of sets it has. One more argument has been spammed and that’s oh Zygardes mu dependent but it really isn’t. Let’s say the oppo has smth like mew + tang now you don’t see zygarde doin much this game but even if it gets annoyed by that core it can still glare and toxic spam, since zygarde won’t be doing much anyways risking a status on zygarde isn’t big as long as it sets up the end game for smth like volc let’s say. (I also said all of this in my last post though only touched on it briefly)
By that logic we shouldnt have banned Pheromosa back then because there was Toxapex to stop most of its sets. Something does not add up here...
 
By that logic we shouldnt have banned Pheromosa back then because there was Toxapex to stop most of its sets. Something does not add up here...
Your logic does not add up, the only thing Phero and Zyg have in common is the big number of sets, Zyg has lots of solids checks and counters while Phero only had Pex as good check and A-Marowak as unreliable check, even then Pex wasn't a good check to Phero best set at the time the quiver dance who after a bit of prior damage killed it with a 1+Z-Hyper Beam. You might think the comment made by Ewin might not be the best, but let's not compare Apples and Oranges friend.
 
So first of all comparing other suspect tests/bans to zygarde is just dumb. The circumstances of this test aren’t the same as phero, phero was almost unstoppable and beat pretty much even if it’s best answer while on the other hand Zygarde is stop able (depends on the set) and overall not as broke, but the point y’all r missing is Zygarde is not being tested because 1 or 2 sets of its are op but it’s being tested because all of its set are usable and good (expect for like drag z which isn’t the best imo) and those very sets can beat pretty much every core/weaken them if it has the right sets.

Now for its ability to be supportive and defensive, thing is even if your zygarde is walled by your “common cores” it can still glare/toxic support and still spam tarrow and keep in mind no mon likes taking a glare/toxic in the face, this allows for other potential sweepers like volc or smth like Ash Gren to finish off ur opponent.Now for its defensive utility this mon can come in on alot of stuff n start spreading status or spamming tarrow.Not only that but If let’s say it gets poisoned or catches another crippling status it can always rest off the damage n the status,but I do admit it comes at its cost.

The last thing is that just because something is the best answer to something doesn’t mean it shouldn’t go like bans can’t be stopped because x mon will be broke if y mon gets banned, that x mon will also be tested if it happens plus other answers to x mon will rise. So this shouldn’t be a argument anyone should be using.
 
Your logic does not add up, the only thing Phero and Zyg have in common is the big number of sets, Zyg has lots of solids checks and counters while Phero only had Pex as good check and A-Marowak as unreliable check, even then Pex wasn't a good check to Phero best set at the time the quiver dance who after a bit of prior damage killed it with a 1+Z-Hyper Beam. You might think the comment made by Ewin might not be the best, but let's not compare Apples and Oranges friend.
and that is exactly the point i am making. hey, i never said that theyre equally strong, that would be ridiculous, but the reasononing back in the day was pretty darn similar, wasnt it?
 
and that is exactly the point i am making. hey, i never said that theyre equally strong, that would be ridiculous, but the reasononing back in the day was pretty darn similar, wasnt it?
Not really, When Zyg gets a new set its never warping the metagame around how can you not die to it, Phero was a monster, every time people started to finally get some fresh air from a set a new one came and tore a new hole on the meta. People got used to the mixed, by bringing fast scarfs to revenge it or something which could eat his stabs while not dying to coverage, then they started to bring choiced sets which hit harder, or a scarf which was faster than all the other scarfs and then came the Quiver Z-Moves which became the most popular because it alomst always brougth at least one kill per game. Zygarde has more sets but all of them are manageable and most of the time when a sweep happens its either because the opposite team and his checks are very weakenend or you haxed the win (Glare), anyway a Zigg sweep don't happen without a lot of support, while Phero needed minimal support because it had the speed and power to clear the game with any of the sets. Let's stop comparing suspects, the issue at hand is Zygarde not Phero.

Anyway I don't believe Zygarde should be banned. It has ton of sets, lots of support moves, two of the best setup moves, priority and the most spammable move of the game, however, its weak, slow, it can't do much against his checks without a band, boosts or status, it has tons of reliable and non niche checks and a few counters, to sweep it needs lots of support be it Veil, T-Spikes, previous weakening of his checks and counters unless Band or boosted and because it doesnt hit that hard if it get hit by a status any chance of sweeping is cut short because it lacks the power to hit hard right away unlike Lando, Chomp, Zard-X, Cham and others. Yes I believe its a force to be recognized but I don't believe it is too much for OU, hence I will be voting NO-BAN on it.
 
Now for its ability to be supportive and defensive, thing is even if your zygarde is walled by your “common cores” it can still glare/toxic support and still spam tarrow and keep in mind no mon likes taking a glare/toxic in the face, this allows for other potential sweepers like volc or smth like Ash Gren to finish off ur opponent.Now for its defensive utility this mon can come in on alot of stuff n start spreading status or spamming tarrow.Not only that but If let’s say it gets poisoned or catches another crippling status it can always rest off the damage n the status,but I do admit it comes at its cost.
By this logic chansey should be broken, as it is bulky as hell can spam seismic toss, and can always toxic or thunder wave depending on set. Oh and unlike zyg it has reliable recovery to stick around all game. Being walled by common cores is a big deal for a supposedly broken mon.

Also why are people all the sudden acting like its immortal? It's very bulky and doesn't go down in one hit easily, but it does not like switching in all day. Unless its running rest which is definitely lesser/niche zyg territory it has no reliable recovery. Glare often has to fish for a para to truly get rolling and if zygarde has taken chip it has a lot fewer subs to work with. Likewise more offensive sets can no longer check the offensive threats they're supposed to be able to revenge kill if they've taken chip. If all zyg can do in a battle is para tang or toxic mew, you better have something that can really take advantage of that or it did jack shit in a battle.
 
Not really, When Zyg gets a new set its never warping the metagame around how can you not die to it, Phero was a monster, every time people started to finally get some fresh air from a set a new one came and tore a new hole on the meta. People got used to the mixed, by bringing fast scarfs to revenge it or something which could eat his stabs while not dying to coverage, then they started to bring choiced sets which hit harder, or a scarf which was faster than all the other scarfs and then came the Quiver Z-Moves which became the most popular because it alomst always brougth at least one kill per game. Zygarde has more sets but all of them are manageable and most of the time when a sweep happens its either because the opposite team and his checks are very weakenend or you haxed the win (Glare), anyway a Zigg sweep don't happen without a lot of support, while Phero needed minimal support because it had the speed and power to clear the game with any of the sets. Let's stop comparing suspects, the issue at hand is Zygarde not Phero.

Anyway I don't believe Zygarde should be banned. It has ton of sets, lots of support moves, two of the best setup moves, priority and the most spammable move of the game, however, its weak, slow, it can't do much against his checks without a band, boosts or status, it has tons of reliable and non niche checks and a few counters, to sweep it needs lots of support be it Veil, T-Spikes, previous weakening of his checks and counters unless Band or boosted and because it doesnt hit that hard if it get hit by a status any chance of sweeping is cut short because it lacks the power to hit hard right away unlike Lando, Chomp, Zard-X, Cham and others. Yes I believe its a force to be recognized but I don't believe it is too much for OU, hence I will be voting NO-BAN on it.
I was never debating the strength of Pheromosa, just the same reasoning was being used at that point to BAN it. The fact that it could run a variety of sets that beat the counters to sets such as scarf, or qd buginium was reason enough to ban it. Why not use the same logic here? By the way: You know what had counters to all of its sets yet got banned by the vast majority of the voters? Mega Metagross. Why? Because it was overcentralizing. The same can be said for Zygarde here, it heavily restricts the ou builds and is stupid with status spreading being able to spread it more reliably than any other Pokémon in the tier.
 
By this logic chansey should be broken, as it is bulky as hell can spam seismic toss, and can always toxic or thunder wave depending on set. Oh and unlike zyg it has reliable recovery to stick around all game. Being walled by common cores is a big deal for a supposedly broken mon.

Also why are people all the sudden acting like its immortal? It's very bulky and doesn't go down in one hit easily, but it does not like switching in all day. Unless its running rest which is definitely lesser/niche zyg territory it has no reliable recovery. Glare often has to fish for a para to truly get rolling and if zygarde has taken chip it has a lot fewer subs to work with. Likewise more offensive sets can no longer check the offensive threats they're supposed to be able to revenge kill if they've taken chip. If all zyg can do in a battle is para tang or toxic mew, you better have something that can really take advantage of that or it did jack shit in a battle.
When did I say Zygardes bulk makes it “broke” it’s just another one of things it can do, also even defensive sets can apply decent amounts of pressure. Now for your chansey point, this logic doesn’t apply to chansey considering chansey has pretty much 1 set and a decent amount of reliable answers where is zygarde doesn’t. Another point you made was “if they have mew/tang n after u para/toxic it you better have smth that takes advantage” well this is true but you are still crippling their defensive walls, let’s say here u have Ash Gren too even though it’s still walled by tang (av) there’s always the chance of para+flinch or in the case of if u toxiced the tang, tang isn’t the best Ash Gren answer then when taking rocks+spikes(if u manage to get them up)+dark(on the switch).Also in the statement YOU quoted I was talking about spdef/defensive zygarde which tend to run rest.
 

Finchinator

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Alright, this thread is spiraling into a back-and-forth of pretty :pikuh: points being exchanged on each side. Let's try to circle back to more general discussion as opposed to continuous responses to someone on the other side of the issue. While it is entirely ok to respond to someone and form counterarguments (I actually encourage it), try not to get too specific and get into fully-blown arguments with other posters as this does not do any good.
 
When did I say Zygardes bulk makes it “broke” it’s just another one of things it can do, also even defensive sets can apply decent amounts of pressure. Now for your chansey point, this logic doesn’t apply to chansey considering chansey has pretty much 1 set and a decent amount of reliable answers where is zygarde doesn’t. Another point you made was “if they have mew/tang n after u para/toxic it you better have smth that takes advantage” well this is true but you are still crippling their defensive walls, let’s say here u have Ash Gren too even though it’s still walled by tang (av) there’s always the chance of para+flinch or in the case of if u toxiced the tang, tang isn’t the best Ash Gren answer then when taking rocks+spikes(if u manage to get them up)+dark(on the switch).Also in the statement YOU quoted I was talking about spdef/defensive zygarde which tend to run rest.
Zygarde only runs one set at a time. I'll repeat it because a lot of pro-ban seem to say "well what if you switch in tang and get toxicked." Zygarde only runs one set at a time. If your tang gets toxicked you read it wrong and got punished. Zygarde is not the only mon in the game with multiple sets that punish "counters." Protean Greninja kills a lot of things that switch into Ash. Walls that are safe against choiced lele fall to calm mind z-move/metronome. Volcarona chooses it counters by which z-crystal it runs. Gameplaying against lando-t is HIGHLY dependent on whether its scarf or rocky or z-move or explosion. Charizard can usually be figured out from its team but there are barely any mons that switch into x and y. Swords dance kartana and scarftana are beaten by very different mons. There are more examples but punishing opponents with multiple sets is not unique to zygarde at all.

Also zygarde is not inscrutable at preview. If it's on veil it's most likely double dance. If it's paired with serp it's most likely glare. If its paired with ash-gren keep in mind it could be toxic. Like people ask about skill, reading teams and making educated guesses about what mons are running is a quintessential pokemon skill. Yeah sometimes someone will throw something weird at you. I once lost a match to thousand waves zygarde cause I did not expect it at all and it crippled my team. Especially on the ladder people are always gonna throw weird sets to get the surprise jump factor. scouting sets without losing too much is also a skill. If you think it might be toxic and you need tang to handle ash-gren switch in something less valuable that can still pressure zyg or just plain ole sack a mon. If that loses the game take your chances it's something else because clearly you lose to toxic garde anyways. That's the definition of matchup dependent.

P.S. I know finch doesn't want us getting bogged down in details but a para'd tang isn't crippled it's inconvenienced, and mew hates toxic a LOT less than zygarde itself so that's a losing proposition unless toxicking mew wins you the game. Also rest zygarde is crazy matchup dependent and in most games greatly inferior to its counterparts.
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

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Will zygarde sometimes win off some rogue set? Sure. But Ash can also run poisonium gunk and kill bulu. And many people would say youre crazy and thats both a waste of a move and too rare to account for. But Im supposed to honor the threat of camo zygarde XD?
ok i went through the whole thread and used ctrl+f for "camo" and literally only got one result outside of you complaining about it. people aren't saying camo zyg is a real set. there are tons of other things zyg can run without giving up utility it would otherwise have, like toxic, glare, and iron tail, to get past these counters. the ash gren comparison is also bad because poisonium ash gren is literal garbage i'm not trying to lose to pex out here
And if you want to REALLY see a centralized game get rid of one of the only relevant tran checks (which it can beat anyway sometimes, no not broken at all though) and watch this tier devolve into chaos.
it doesn't matter if zyg being gone makes heatran broken, even if it does we can just ban him too. heatran already being broken or whatever (ftr heatran is WAY easier to offensively check than zyg) is also irrelevant to the current suspect.
Magearna 6-0s stall by itself with pain split when chansey is supposed to be a hard stop. Tran can blow back zy itself with zmoves or status. Im honestly much more afraid of a set like OTR on many of my teams than Zygarde because if you play it like SG or AV you lose when it comes out. Mag constrains the game with what, 3 sets? Who cares is zygarde can run Camo/coil/stab/espeed. That set is garbage and if you lose to it anyway good job on the opponent. You got outplayed hard. There is no outplaying OTR mid game if you dont have like a chansey or M camerupt.
this argument is dumb. bring up the good zyg sets that actually do constrain teambuilding, not camouflage.
If you dont have a few ash gren checks you will lose without fail. No need for hax or anything. Youll just lose period.
yeah the thing is you know what ash gren is doing. every time. the mon literally has 1 good set with counters that work every time. av growth, chans, bulu, fini, and others. checks like mega heracross, scarf gren, and even scarf lando are usable if needed. with zyg, it has a way around everything. even if it doesn't just ohko the mon, it can win in the long run.
If you lose to zy consistenly with a squad you more than likely losing to much more than that anyway because his checks double as checks of other top tier threats and if you dont have several you are going to get rolled anyway.
the thing is that people don't really lose to zyg "consistently". obviously every good team should handle some zyg sets. the problem is when other zyg sets just come in on anything and win because they got the matchup. this is the problem.
 
I haven't entirely made up my mind about zygarde yet but probably lean towards no ban. While I do think it is one of the biggest threats in OU I feel like most pro-ban arguments are blown out of proportion.

Firstly I think people oversell the dangers it's more creative sets pose. For this purpose I'd define the DD and CB sets as the more conservative ones which I think are actually really really good sets but by itself not completely overwhelming (I'll get to the point regarding the variety of z-moves in a bit).
If you look at it's more niche sets like sub toxic or glare it is probably true that they manage to get around the main sets primary checks, namely tangrowth. However it's not like that happens without any issues for the zygarde user. I find that usually what happens in practice is that after luring and killing it's check zygarde took some significant damage and is usually either revenge killed or saved but rendered pretty useless for the rest of the game. In the end this is precisely what a lure is supposed to do but taking out one specific mon by luring it is not what I would call overpowered.
Surely Zygarde does these kind of things better than all other Pokémon in ou but I rarely see these alternative sets completely demolishing teams by themselves without hax.

Now obviously I ignored that due to the existence of z-moves on DD sets there are actually some lure sets of zygarde than can in fact sweep. This is what in my opinion could push zyg over the edge more than anything else. However this is not inherently a problem of zygarde but just a fault (or feature) of the z-moves system. This generation simply made it easier to lure checks with single one time nukes. I'm aware that loads of people don't like that but acting like this is a problem only for zygarde is in my opinion a bit silly. We had these same problems before when magearna was spammed with one million different sets, again all due to the z-move mechanics. Same thing for offensive lando-t versions or heatran. This I think shows that it is not a problem inherent to zygarde. Zygarde is simply the best abuser of these mechanics and thus way more explored than other options. People just spend more effort into finding new sets because they know it's worth it. But what happens when zygarde gets banned? People will just focus on other mons and explore similar lure tactics that will most likely affect the metagame the same.

On a similar note, I know that people don't like banning moves to save a mon. However if we consider Zygarde in it's current form banworthy I think we should probably still ban thousand arrows instead. While people seem to argue that because it wouldn't be overpowered in pidgeot this means it's not overpowered by itself. However I think the better question is if it would always be overpowered on a reasonably good user. If we imagine Pokémon like garchomp or lando-t with thousand arrows I think this would be the case. It is just simply the most spammable move I could think of which means any Pokémon that has access to is suddenly had tons of space for luring techs. This is the only reason why zygarde can afford to run shit like sub-toxic in the first place and this would happen with any reasonably ground type mon. Zygarde never had any impact in oras simply for this reason that it didn't have the insane leaway that TA gives it and that would make any decent Pokémon too versitile for the metagame.

Lastly I feel a lot of people just don't like the general direction this generation took arguing that the powercreep was too strong and that z-moves ruin the game. Sometimes I feel people just wanna see blood and zygarde happens to be the victim. I admit that is just a matter of preference but I think seeing as we're playing a simulation of Pokémon that should be as close to what the generations give us. All these "overpowered" mons just happen to be here now and kind of balance each other out. Yes some old ou mainstays fell victim to this but that is just the development the games took and we should just accept that.

In conclusion, I think zygarde is very centralising and potentially problematic (also very annoying) I don't think banning it would solve the issues at hand. However if we see it has banworthy as a whole then thousand arrows in my opinion would be the right ban instead.
 
Now that I’ve finally gotten reqs and played a bunch of games with and against Zygarde, I feel like I can confidently give my thoughts on it and why it should be banned in my eyes.

I think Zygarde is broken and super unhealthy for the metagame. This is due to it's splashability, versatility, stats and typing, freedom of movesets, strain on teambuilding and how you play around it in a game.

Zygarde has obviously shown to be adaptable as fuck and have a ton of moveset options so I'm not gonna go too deep into that seeing as many others have done an excellent job explaining it. Instead, I'd like to focus on how Zygarde is unhealthy in the building and playing aspects.

When building, Zygarde, just as much or even more so than Heatran, a pokemon that needs to be kept in mind when building. This isn't a problem in itself. However, due to it's diversity in sets and overall unpredictability, you usually need two Zygarde checks which helps contribute to the issue some have with the meta of it being so hard to prepare for everything.

However, Zygarde isn't even healthy to play against. It's a strain in and out of the practice of battling. Unlike some other top tiers with more than one set like Heatran or Lando, Zygarde is really hard to scout. You could scout coil or DD, go to your Tangrowth and get toxiced. Or if you assume toxic and go to something else like Scizor, you're getting glared or subbed on. If you assume banded arrows and go to Clefable, turns out they're weakness policy/z, take the moonblast, and take out Clefable. You don't know what the Zygarde is going to do until it's too late. There's no being able to figure things out based on team preview or by even 2 or 3 moves revealed, you have to see every move. This severely influences how you play out a game to where you try to scout Zygarde only to give said Zygarde or even another mon on the opponent's team a free turn to do whatever they want.

For these reasons and the other stated many times in this thread (which I didn't cover as much due to wanting to not repeat everything every pro banner ever has already covered) I'm going to be voting ban.
 
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Got reqs still voting no ban. I played a really goofy mega camerupt for 90% of the suspect and then cheesed the rest with veils. I think zygarde is pretty strong. As I thought the best set is still dd under veil. Now, that is a stupid set. Still loses to certain cores but its counterplay is admittedly wayyyyy less than the other sets you start rolling. The opp cost of having to run that telegraphed style offset its brokeness imo...

The status sets are more annoying than anything. Still very good. Didnt have any trouble with them myself during this but I could see how some builds just fall over. I ran dd reun, and bulu and not one zygarde did anything to that team. Was actual dead weight. So its definitely stoppable. Whereaways I feel that there is never a team that tran is gonnna accomplish nothing. Even against rain it can ger rocks, surprise with z grass etc. I know this shit is super anecdotal but I can only go off what I witnessed climbing during this and out of it. Super threatening mon to some builds. Far from broken, A+ tier for sure. No ban for me
 
I'm voting mod edit: would be voting, but did not legitimately obtain reqs not to ban Zygarde, despite it having a myriad of usable sets it still carries many of the same weaknesses. It's not an offensive powerhouse that can win games instantly, the coil and ddance sets require a weakened opponent due to Zygarde's mediocre 100Atk stat. It can win games if it comes out at the right time, but that's true of every sort of set up sweeper. It relies heavily on the support of it's team, and on it's own it cannot sweep. Like many in the thread I've never really had to think about carrying a dedicated Zygarde counter, even at 1700, as nearly every well built team will have ways to counter it. Like Adapt or Die said, Zygarde can only have a single set at a time. Predicting it, and adapting your strategy to compensate isn't some massive ordeal. Since it doesn't exist in a vacuum, you can look at it's team to get an idea of what it's likely to be. You can still be surprised, but having to think and try to predict your opponent is the core of this game.
Versatility isn't something that the council should attempt to phase out of OU. If anything SM has given OU a ton of support to unconventional strategies and smart plays through Z-Moves. The often complained about Steelium set isn't much different from running Bloom Doom on Heatran to punish common switch-ins. Gamefreak clearly designed this to be a gen where being able to out-think and surprise your opponent can and will reward you.
The main argument for banning is that you can't instantly tell what set is from match start, and it has a fair few sets that you'd take a gamble on. Tons of other mons have lots of sets, especially in high-tier OU, are we going to see Charizard suspected because it has 2 different megas, and can use them both effectively? Will we see Greninja suspected due to protean and battle bond sets?
Even though it has a lot of sets, it falls on you to be able to analyze the current state of the game, what it's going to be, and play around it. You can still get surprised, but you need to be good enough to keep all of it's potential sets in mind. Zygarde, and versatility as a whole, reward creativity in a way that hasn't been rewarded in pokemon for a long time, and banning that would certainly be a mistake.
 
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Got reqs on my outxho3n4 alt, voting not to ban.

My main point is that Zygarde does not limit teambuilding options in ways other banned threats or even current threats do. I really can't stress that statement enough. Regardless of how some sets tear through unprepared teams, there is not enough combinations to always break through Zygarde checks. Most teams have a couple just as a coincidence, as say Bulu, Tang, and Curse Mega Sciz all check many other threats that make the viable even without Zygarde. Zygarde's coverage and power is awfully limited, and you'd have to go out of your way to make a Sub Tox stallbreaker set if you wanted to beat something like Unaware Quag; a set every single mon could do if they wanted. And for that matter, scouting for Toxic, Coil, Glare, or whatever isn't too dangerous if the team is built right. So many teams have no problem with Zygarde once they know the set; it's seriously the mindgames going on for what the potential set could be that is so scary. But even then, the handful of checks and counters that exist can always deal with it.

Personaly, I think there is bigger fish to fry with Greninja. Every broad argument used to ban Zygarde is much more applicable to Gren. You have to deal with Specs Ash Gren, Spikes Lead, Z-Dig for Assvest Mag or Pex, Scarf, and probably even more sets with the potential and creativity of this mon. And all you see is Gren from the teambuilder; you can;t even tell between Ash Gren or Protean. It's that fact alone that have had games where I swore I was going to lose because I was preparing to believe that it was Specs Ash Gren, but it turned out to be another set entirely. That's the problem.

With Zygarde, it has one big role; sweeping. Yes, it can be a choice band or stall breaker with toxic, but both those sets can be manageable. If players tell themselves, "Okay, this garde is going to try to sweep, how do I prevent it?" before they ask "is it a special z move or set I'm not ready for," I think players can deal with Zygarde much better.
 
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