Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 0 (Beta): Green Light (Talonflame Banned)

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I don't claim to know anything about UU, so I won't comment there. Though for what it's worth, there is the fact that Mega Aero is much more threatening than a SDef Espeon will ever be.

I will say, however, that Dugtrio actually, y'know, traps the things that annoy stall for a guaranteed KO as opposed to forcing it out, doing some damage to one mon then potentially getting trapped itself. Not to mention in order to bring Espeon in to RK, something would have to be KO'd in the first place due to most Stall mons not using U-turn/Volt Switch and BP being banned. That is not the case on OU stall, so comparing Espeon on Dugtrio is not fair to your argument.

Finally, forcing a playstyle to adapt to using a subpar moveset just in order to check one threat is usually a good sign that that threat is unhealthy and likely merits a suspect - the concept of overcentralization. Just because it's been done before doesn't make that any less true.

Edit: Actually, you kinda proved my point right. UU Stall including Mega Aero means that it actually has a switchin to Toge, and as such doesn't have to sacrifice a mon to threat it out offensively. However, RU stall is essentially forced to sac a mon then attempt to revenge Hera, on which it can simply switch and return later whether by pivoting, double switches, or after having a mon be KO'd on its side.
You make several decent points. I think you took things more literally than I meant (I was just making a point that stall always uses revenge killers, not actually trying to compare each individual mon used to do it) but actually I see what you're saying.

However, I'm still in disagreement over acro. To me at least, thats not so much running a subpar move to cover one overbearing threat than it is naturally having a countermeasure to a particular pokemon that threatens that play style. It's not a result of overcentralization, it's just players responding to a threat, which is how team building should work. I feel like this debate is starting to repeat itself, though, and thats probably annoying to everyone else in the thread, so I'm probably done talking about heracross for the time being
 
Firsty, you are massively understating the number of mons Hera comes in on and threatens out on stall and balance.

Viable defensive mons that Hera comes in on in the tier: Bronzong, Chesnaught, Donphan, Defensive Nidoqueen, any bulky waters bar Air Slash Mantine and the Slow duo, Sableye, Registeel, Shedinja, Porygon2, rare but underrated Cryogonal, and the aforementioned Umbreon. That's a lot more than just one - in fact, that's a bit over half of usable defensive/stall mons.

Hazards are a poor argument against Heracross when there are about 2 hazard setters that are good on stall that don't let Hera in for 100% free (Diancie and Acro Gligar.) Given that Hera doesn't often come in on hazards - and even when it does, it only takes 12% - it takes quite a while to whittle since Burn damage is very minimal, and Stall doesn't often have much offensive pressure to put on it to deter it for coming in.

There aren't many Healing Wish users in the tier, but it really doesn't help that the best one (Gardevoir) pairs very well with Heracross and is and of itself an excellent mon.

Lastly, for the record, invalidating stall and bulky playstyles doesn't necessarily mean that it 6-0s them. All it needs to do in many cases is irreparably cripple the team so that it is unable to handle Hera's teammates, kinda like any other wallbreaker. The problem arises when it does this much too well, which it does. I'm by no means saying that Colbur/Z move Slowbro is bad, but you shouldn't have to have counterplay that terribly specfic just to not lose to one mon. This rings terribly simialr to Haxorus vs stall teams - despize, for example, included Avalugg on his stall simply because nothing else walled Haxorus, and Heracross while not at that extent is terribly close.
Stall runs hardly any of those mons in reality. You are just listing mons, but most of them aren't on stall. Sableye is hardly fodder for Heracross, in fact it's Sableye that makes it all the harder to do damage with Heracross as it's immune 2 of your STABs off the bat and Knock Off doesn't come close to OHKO'ing, all the while you are being worn down the entire time.

Stall might not have much offensive pressure, but other than Umbreon and/or Registeel it doesn't OHKO anything on stall, and most things either OHKO in return or cripple it. Acrobatics Gligar doesn't OHKO outright but given Flame Orb Heracross is rarely at 100% it virtually does, Pyukumuku you can't actually come in on this as you don't OHKO it and the clock is always ticking down on you due to your Flame Orb, Espeon is faster and has a chance to OHKO with Psyshock (and as I said you are virtually never going to be at 100% with Flame Orb Heracross anyway), Golbat you don't OHKO and it OHKO's you with Brave Bird.

On your last part, but Heracross isn't doing this. Heracross is surely the #1 used mon right and the Flame Orb set is it's most used set, yet a good % of the top of the ladder is stall teams. If Heracross was crippling this teams, that wouldn't be the case. We are also only focusing on what Heracross does to stall/balance here, Flame Orb Heracross is much weaker vs offensive playstyles where most mons can outspeed and do a lot of damage in return. Say hypothetically Heracross gets banned, something like Machamp can do a very similar thing to Heracross vs bulkier teams, will that then be perceived to be broken as well?
 

Ajna

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bulky teams adapting to mons that break bulky teams is not something new guys. hera is a very good mon, and i am slightly biased because i personally enjoy bulky offense and balance, but a good stall team is made to beat the best/most common threats in the tier. there's a reason why in oras everyone had to start running thunderbolt registeel to beat braviary. of course tbolt is sub par compared to protect in 9/10 games, but if you didn't have tbolt when you played a braviary you lost. this is the same thing with hera in this gen against fat teams. im not gonna pretend like running a specific mon and running a diff 4th move are the same exact thing, but stall/fat teams have to pack a check to hera to be more consistently successful. you can have a great stall team that beats everything except sd hera and still have a very good chance to win 9/10 games. certain pokemon are just made to break certain playstyles. for example, swellow vs offense and shaymin vs balance. this doesn't mean that these mons are broken, they are just good at fulfilling their roles. flame orb hera is not good vs offense and decent vs balance, swellow is not good vs stall, and decent vs balance, and shaymin is also not good vs stall, but decent vs offense. hera is a very good mon (S imo with it's scarf, cb, and sd sets all being exceptional), but it is not simply broken because it has a great matchup versus a certain playstyle. also hera loses 6 percent per turn and 12 percent every time it comes in on rocks. someone using sd hera vs stall is never going to hard switch into hera because it just helps stall to chip it lol.
 
Running one move to check another pokemon isn't a bad thing. A better way to look at it is if heracross didnt exist what else is acrobatics hitting and more importantly is gligar's role being hindered by running it? Thunderbolt Registeel was a similar example to this. People for the most part didn't want a Braviary ban even though it was arguable even harder on RU stall last gen, especially before the Dugtrio ban. Do you think by running being forced to run Acro Gligar stall has a harder time checking things Gligar normally would? Not to imply I'm on either side I just find some of the ideas raised here odd.

Olly Also Sableye isn't immune to bug. And Machamp can't do what Heracross does because again Heracross actually has a good way to handle psychic types.
 

cyanize

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Stall runs hardly any of those mons in reality. You are just listing mons, but most of them aren't on stall. Sableye is hardly fodder for Heracross, in fact it's Sableye that makes it all the harder to do damage with Heracross as it's immune 2 of your STABs off the bat and Knock Off doesn't come close to OHKO'ing, all the while you are being worn down the entire time.

Stall might not have much offensive pressure, but other than Umbreon and/or Registeel it doesn't OHKO anything on stall, and most things either OHKO in return or cripple it. Acrobatics Gligar doesn't OHKO outright but given Flame Orb Heracross is rarely at 100% it virtually does, Pyukumuku you can't actually come in on this as you don't OHKO it and the clock is always ticking down on you due to your Flame Orb, Espeon is faster and has a chance to OHKO with Psyshock (and as I said you are virtually never going to be at 100% with Flame Orb Heracross anyway), Golbat you don't OHKO and it OHKO's you with Brave Bird.

On your last part, but Heracross isn't doing this. Heracross is surely the #1 used mon right and the Flame Orb set is it's most used set, yet a good % of the top of the ladder is stall teams. If Heracross was crippling this teams, that wouldn't be the case. We are also only focusing on what Heracross does to stall/balance here, Flame Orb Heracross is much weaker vs offensive playstyles where most mons can outspeed and do a lot of damage in return. Say hypothetically Heracross gets banned, something like Machamp can do a very similar thing to Heracross vs bulkier teams, will that then be perceived to be broken as well?
"Stall doesn't run the mons I listed" Yet, the three stall teams in the sample thread all have at least one of the mons I listed and often have 2. Hell, the very stall team you're referencing (despize's) has a sableye on it and used to have Shedinja.

You're not crippling a Heracross with anything on stall. Foul Play mons get blown 3 years back, and it cares literally nothing for status outside of Para being slightly annoying at the cost of no residual damage. Not to mention, you can easily have a squence of events like this:
  1. Hera comes in, potentially leading. The defending team likely has to switch to Gligar unless they counterled it or made a skillful double.
  2. If they have to switch in to Gligar, Hera clicks Knock. Orb activates here.
  3. Two things can happen: Hera can stay in, predicting Gligar to click a non-Acrobatics move and click SD or Facade (risky, but has potentially high payoff) or it can switch, which gives Gligar a free turn.
  4. The game runs its course considering Hera switched out. If Hera stayed in and SD'd, there is a huuge problem because Gligar dies to +2 Facade without Evio.
  5. Again considering Hera switched before, it comes back in now. It essentially clicks Facade for free, since a Gligar coming in is 2hkod and anything takes huge damage and is forced to make more switches to avoid being hit by a coverage move. Likely event is, something is KO'd.
Now, the stall team is working down usually one and potentially 2 mons, and the threat isn't even likely below 65% HP. That's definitely more crippling one way than it is the other, and the "counter" Gligar did nothing but force Hera out once.

Everything on the stalls in the sample thread bar Pyuku (2hkod neutrally anyways) and a Gligar with Evio is ohkod by +2 Hera. Not as if it not nabbing ohkos matters a whole lot, since it's faster than all these mons and has no reason to not continue to click moves since they can't recover before they are KO'd.

Heracross is far from the number one used mon, and Flame Orb is not it's most common set on ladder - that honor goes to Scarf. If Hera were the number one mon on ladder and Flame Orb were its most common set I GUARANTEE stall would not be topping ladder as easily. Machamp also does nothing even close to Heracross as it doesn't have SD, doesn't have versatility in sets, and doesn't pressure offense OR balance due to its abysmal Speed. Heracross, while not quite as impactful vs these playstyles, can still do a considerable amount of damage, since 85 speed isn't actually all that slow - taking the samples into account again, all of the offense and balance teams have at least 3 mons it outspeeds and threatens except for -tsunami-'s.
 
Ok so wow quite the slapfight we have going on here.
I just want to say I agree that hera is, imo, a bit too much for the tier. I feel like it at least deserves a quickban now and a suspect test later (without wishing to sound like a smartass, isn't that the point of the koko system? QB anything even potentially broken and give it a fair test later?) While I don't really want to wade into the argument right now, I want to bring up my own thoughts on some anti hera points
Acrobatics gligar can only stop guts hera once, as it gets koed by +2 facade without eviolite, so all hera really has to do is click knock off the first time it comes in.
Speaking of, Hera doesn't really have too much trouble coming in vs bulkier teams. It has decent defenses and a few nice resists, and is status proof after it's first turn in. While it does lose 6% per turn, thats still less then the 10% a life orb mon might lose.
Non scarf hera isn't slow. While it won't outspeed everything on offense unboosted, at base 85 speed its faster then average and outspeeds common mons like non scarf rotom forms, goodra, gardevoir, florges, milotic, etc.
Even if stall can revenge it with espeon, it still has to lose something most of the time to do that, and once something on stall goes down it usually starts to fall apart pretty quickly. Plus stall can't really put on offensive pressure/momentum to take advantage of hera switching. Ok, their espeon forced you to switch hera out. So they did a bit of damage to your espeon check, and you koed one of their pokemon. Not exactly a fair trade.
I'm sorry, but it is laughable to say flame orb hera is the most common set, at least in my experience. About 90% of heras I see are scarf, its actually insane how rare the flame orb set it. I admit it has become more common as time has gone on, and I'm fairly low on the ladder, but I feel like most people's experience facing hera is against the scarf set, which is so laughably bad against stall it's funny.
Btw, scarf hera is pretty good against offence due to it's ability to snowball with moxie, and how easy it is to support with a bit of pursuit/hazards, and many of its common answers on HO are pretty easily lured.
Hera outclasses other fighting types to the point where they are almost unviable. Would be staples like emboar, hitmonlee, machamp, passimian, and even pangoro are way more niche then they should be simply because heracross can do their job better 80% of the time.
While I feel the thunderbolt registeel comparison for braviary is pretty good, I also want to point out that thunderbolt turned registeel into a very consistent answer to subBU braviary, while acro gligar can maybe stop hera once or twice if you don't misplay it. Registeel also wasn't incredibly desperate for moveslots like gligar is. Regi could still accomplish it's job pretty well with tbolt, (that job being a fat fuck that does nothing but make things boring AF and wall everything) while gligar has to make sacrifices for acro that means it loses out on the ability to defog, set rocks, or not be complete setup bait for everything with u-turn/toxic. Admitedly this is my worst argument and acro gligar also lets it beat other things like rotom-mow and passimian.
I really think that hera is a pokemon that at least deserves to be booted for now and looked at later, its a cut above everything else in the tier and I want to see a meta without it.

Will probably post about some other stuff I think are at the top right now, mainly honch, necrozma, and shaymin/rose.

Oh and also, completely 100% serious question: can we ban kings rock? The fact that a completely unviable shit mon like cincinno can cheese it's counters is ridiculous. Flinching a gigalith or escav twice with bullet seed/rock blast isn't competitive, fair, or fun, and has no viable counterplay (rip inner focus crobat). I don't think any experienced battler would seriously miss it's presence. Inb4 lol salt git gud.
 
greetings friends, fams, etc. i feel as tho this heracross debate has grown somewhat cyclical in nature, and would seek to offer my stance on it as a council man.

i feel that, when discussing a [potential] suspect such as this, it is important to focus in on a few keys factors to accurately measure its impact in the tier; the sustainability of the pokemon, its ability to produce free turns and its proportionate value ascertained in those turns, and the manners adopted to respond to this pokemon all weigh in to my assessment of a breakers worth in a metagame. i can tell you as something of a mainstay in the colluding oligarchs of power abuse smog circlejerks, the dude posting a wall of calcs will get laughed out the room, cuz it offers no context w/being cross-examined along the other aspects of the mon that lead to and proceed it dealing that dmg. a discussion of usage to me does not feel relevant here until a point that scarf becomes a meta-tilting set to the player base, as a pokemon w/no usage that tilts the tier isn't a non-issue for a lack of exposure. to this end, i feel a lot of points made here are certainly valid, which in my mind indicates a good suspect pick. which, good news, it's on the block for the most recent council vote, in addition to the last one.

that said, I do not feel as though heracross is currently worth banning, and it plays largely into the issues presented by free turns and sustainability, as detailed briefly before. heracross, like many beaters before it and surely many to follow, will indeed deal good damage to defensive pokemon when fed turns, and it is our job as players and potential opponents to this to determine how to address this. to me, i feel a slight adjustment in play greatly mitigated just how freely heracross plays. to illustrate, prior posts cited bronzong, p2, and slowking / bro as free switches, but if the user weighs his options and simply forgoes their sr / cm / status to address the possibility of a switch, you've got that hera risking 60-70, 30-40, and 70-85% (respectively) to capitalize. i agree with the basic idea that a breaker that instigates aggressive play from the stall player is grounds for [strongs considerations of] a ban, however much of this activity to me simply reads as basic risk management, an integral facet of all play. moreover, the idea that as a stall builder, you are forced to run certain specific sets or pokemon to account for a specific metagame is not one foreign to this metagame or generation at all. one might observe certain concessions made to traditional archetypes throughout the history of the game, and the idea that this (centralization) is inherently bad is incorrect. what is key in such an assessment is the weighing of whether these adjustments are impacting the shape of the metagame in a negative fashion, and personally I do not believe they do. fortunately, that's why we keep a council rather than putting me at the helm fully, but it is important to understand issues like these have a level of sensitivity and subjectivity to them.
 
Firsty, you are massively understating the number of mons Hera comes in on and threatens out on stall and balance.

Viable defensive mons that Hera comes in on in the tier: Bronzong, Chesnaught, Donphan, Defensive Nidoqueen, any bulky waters bar Air Slash Mantine and the Slow duo, Sableye, Registeel, Shedinja, Porygon2, rare but underrated Cryogonal, and the aforementioned Umbreon. That's a lot more than just one - in fact, that's a bit over half of usable defensive/stall mons.
Forgive me for strawmanning, been keeping an eye on the discussion because I don't think a wallbreaker doing its job and pressuring stall to be worthy of a ban, but how exactly can Heracross come in for free against those mons? Bronzong 2HKOs with Gyro Ball, Chesnaught can Leech Seed which with burn damage and potential SR (hazards DO hinder Heracross) that's a lot of chip damage to take, Donphan could potentially knock off the flame orb on the switch while offensive donphan does 35% minimum with EQ (35+12+6 on the first switchin with SR and burn, another 35+6 assuming absolute minimum rolls and Heracross is nearly dead), Nidoqueen I will accept because she could not be running sludge wave, but sludge wave does a good bit. It absolutely can't switch into slowbro/king considering the threat of psyshock is there but the other bulky waters don't really hurt him too much bar for Hex Jellicent (no one uses this). I'll agree on the others.

Heracross isn't a Pokemon you switch with freely, you don't wanna wittle it down especially since it'll be taking 6% each turn by default. This adds up with SR, weak hits, possible sandstorm, etc. You wanna use it smartly with voltturn support, or be forced to sack something.
 

cyanize

owari wa hajimari, hajimari wa owari.
is a Pre-Contributor
Forgive me for strawmanning, been keeping an eye on the discussion because I don't think a wallbreaker doing its job and pressuring stall to be worthy of a ban, but how exactly can Heracross come in for free against those mons? Bronzong 2HKOs with Gyro Ball, Chesnaught can Leech Seed which with burn damage and potential SR (hazards DO hinder Heracross) that's a lot of chip damage to take, Donphan could potentially knock off the flame orb on the switch while offensive donphan does 35% minimum with EQ (35+12+6 on the first switchin with SR and burn, another 35+6 assuming absolute minimum rolls and Heracross is nearly dead), Nidoqueen I will accept because she could not be running sludge wave, but sludge wave does a good bit. It absolutely can't switch into slowbro/king considering the threat of psyshock is there but the other bulky waters don't really hurt him too much bar for Hex Jellicent (no one uses this). I'll agree on the others.

Heracross isn't a Pokemon you switch with freely, you don't wanna wittle it down especially since it'll be taking 6% each turn by default. This adds up with SR, weak hits, possible sandstorm, etc.
I'll admit, I'm currently on my phone so I didn't realize Bronzong did so much damage to Hera. That's my bad. And yes, Chesnaught could potentially use Leech Seed on a Hera switchin, which is quite a bit of chip damage.

However, I'd like to say that my point in saying Hera cares little about hazards is moreso in comparison to other threatening breakers - Life Orb mons take more overall damage especially considering TSpikes and things like Talon and Swellow take 25% or more fron Rocks, so Hera cares comparatively less overall than most other offnsive threats. It also deters the setting of hazards, simply because it exists on the other team and you don't want to give it free switches since keeping pressure on it is the best way to keep it from wrecking you.

Also, Defensive Nidoqueen doesn't often run Sludge Wave. They occasionally carry PJab to better check Florges, but that uninvested does little damage.

Lastly, I'm not sure if I worded this oddly or not, but the Slow duo were specifically excluded from the bulky waters Hera switches in on alongside Air Slash Mantine.

I agree with your overall sentiment, however - it being easy to chip and not super hard to pressure offensively, which are the main reasons it isn't too crazy vs balance either despite getting KO's every time it comes in for the most part.
 


Well, I'll talk about a mon which is underestimate and I can't make a sample because it, it's Komala. As spinner this mon is bad and outclassed by many others but it has SD+Sucker Punch+115 in Atk which is very good and EQ and Return. Moreover Komala can't be "satused" thanks to Comatose and because that and its good SpeDef it can set up on many defensive mons. I use it to weaken Steel and Rock type and pressure slower team. I run lefties but I can imagine a 2 move set (Z Eq for example)
It still a little bit slow (same speed than Emboar) but Sucker at +2 help it against faster frail Pokemon.
I've some success with many alts and my main in ladd with it. Of course it's probably not enough to be RU but I think it got a niche and a viability.



Another mon which is underestimate, LO hits faster and stronger with a good coverage. It lacks thunderbolt unfortunately to threaten Mantine but Energy Ball is nice against some common leads+Heat Wave and Psychic STAB, it can run Calm Mind or 4 moves (Dazzling, Dark Pulse for Bulky Psychic Type, Ice Beam...). Above all it's not affected by Hazards when it's a play style very used.
There is Flame Orb set but I think it's not as good as LO one because I think Reuniculus is better for that and burn is less efficient in gen7.
Unfortunately Sneasel make a strong comeback as Pursuit trapper but it still a threat.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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RU Co-Leader
The RU council had its third quickban vote for RU beta. Thank you to the rotating council (Imanalt, The Leprechaun, Ryoma Nagare, Lord Death Man, and Omicron) for voting.

Talonflame is banned from the RU tier.



Talonflame proved to be too restricting to offensive teams because of its high speed and access to boosting moves such as Swords Dance or Bulk Up, which required offensive teams to run specific checks that do not typically fit on offensive teams. On top of this, Talonflame's Taunt + Bulk Up set was extremely effective at shutting down more defensively oriented balanced teams and certain stall builds, while still threatening offense thanks to Gale Wings Brave Bird (or Supersonic Skystrike). Overall, in spite of the nerf to Gale Wings, Talonflame is simply too difficult for offensive teams to effectively account for at the team building stage without being dead weight against any specific play style.


Tagging The Immortal to remove Talonflame from the RU (beta) ladder, thanks in advance!
 
Drought however does have reasons to be banned because, look at the main pokemon that benefit from Drought. For example: Venusaur, Roserade, Emboar, Charizard (It has Solar Power + Z Celebreate so give it a chance), and any type weak to Water moves (since it gets reduced by 50% in drought) and has access to Fire STAB. And with Venusaur all over the place and other mons, it can really make Drought a force to be reckoned with. In all honesty, the best way to counter sun teams is having a weather setter on your team, and it comes to show that without a weather setter, you won't really get too far with your team since the plantasauropod (venusaur) is mostly running around on sun teams. So, I really think it should be banned.
 
I wonder if Drought slipped through the ban net due to Gigalith removing the Sun?
(and Gigalith being good against some Fire Types and Sun Setters) -> The problem however are the common grass types on Sun Teams.
 
I wonder if Drought slipped through the ban net due to Gigalith removing the Sun?
(and Gigalith being good against some Fire Types and Sun Setters) -> The problem however are the common grass types on Sun Teams.
I personally voted no ban because I believe there's good, decently common mons across many playstyles that can handle the best sun mons. Splashable mons, such as Kommo-O and Dragalge, can often shut down most sun teams, while offensive has access to mons that cover the things that get around them, and those mons are decent in their own right. Gigalith was just a small part of my vote, since I think Sun teams can play around Gigalith much easier than they can play around dragons + "odd" scarfers like Salazzle.

While I don't discount the possibility of there being a brokenly consistent sun team, I haven't seen anything of that effect when actually playing against the ladder, talking with people about their drought teams, and watching other people play matches.

So I'm not going to complain about why x was voted on but not y, but I would like just like to say, I find it interesting that drought was one swing vote away from being banned, but I see very little discussion about it, at least compared to things like hera or honch. Not saying I necessarily disagree with a drought ban, but I never saw people bring it up as OP in the tier.
I feel the opposite - I've seen very little discussion on Heracross that didn't appear to boil down to "well I can just outplay it / No one can ever outplay it." I think the only particularly decent post I've read about Heracross in this thread was col49's, and even then I feel differently, as could be discerned from my vote about it. That's a part of why we have councils, though - I'm not building quite the same teams as other players, nor am I making the same plays as them.

I think discussion of Heracross could be improved by showing a Heracross breaking through a stall team without the stall player making awful moves every turn.
 

-Tsunami-

Lonely Feather
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all these uncreative clowns actin like fat teams have no way to counter heracross. well luckily for you all, INNOVATION GOD METABEAST is back once again to do the thinking for you. This Pokemon not only dismantles Heracross, but it also handles other balance killers like Pangoro. Not only that, it also boasts the ability to KO a Curse Snorlax if it switches in on the Curse!!! Now, you must be wondering...what Pokemon could possibly handle all of these behemoths and kill them easily???


bop trapped (Diglett) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Aerial Ace
- Screech / Sucker Punch / Toxic / Pursuit

Bet you never thought of this. Diglett the god is here, ready to trap all of the threats that have been causing you headaches. Simply switch in on Heracross's Close Combat or Swords Dance and proceed to cut it in half. Similarly, it can come in on any attack from Pangoro and dismantle it as well. If you switch in on Heracross's Megahorn or Knock Off, Diglett can still weaken it enough to where it won't really be a problem for your team, especially after burn damage and Stealth Rock. Screech can be used to trap Snorlax, as Diglett is still faster than Snorlax even if it is paralyzed by a Body Slam. It can also be used to trap walls such as Umbreon. Sucker Punch is useful priority that can pick off weakened foes; Toxic is nice for hitting walls before Diglett faints. Pursuit is useful for trapping Hoopa, which can also be a bane to bulkier teams. For Diglett to work effectively, it should be paired with one of Espeon or Xatu, along with a Defogger or Rapid Spinner. If you provide it with these teammates, Diglett will become your best friend, easily demolishing many of the foes that would otherwise disentigrate your bulky team.
 

-Tsunami-

Lonely Feather
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis a Past SPL Champion
Alright, since people apparently don't know how to hype a Pokemon set correctly....
INNOVATION GOD METABEAST IS BACK ONCE AGAIN TO GRACE THE COMMUNITY WITH A LORD CREATION! This absolute gem was hand-crafted in the RU stall factory, where after many painstaking efforts, user oujiaboard was able to come up with a behemoth that is able to effortlessly topple both Pangoro and Heracross. These two tyrants have been dominating the tier for many months, the latter especially starting many riots in the RU Showdown room. However, there is no longer a need for the community to restlessly wrack their brains in order to come up with counters to these demons. Earlier, I posted about how Diglett was able to dismantle both of these threats; the Pokemon below is a much more standard one, which can also work effectively against a plethora of other Pokemon as well.


nomoves4u (Sableye) @ Fairium Z / Psychium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Imprison
- Knock Off
- Dazzling Gleam
- Recover

Sableye is a Pokemon that has lost a great deal of effectiveness with the generation shift. What was once a Pokemon so broken that it was immediately quickbanned by the RU council has fallen into the depths of the tier, as it currently sits at a pitiful .79% usage on the RU Ladder (163rd overall). The prankster nerf in tandem with unfavorable metagame changes brought about its rapid decline. However, the above set capitalizes on its still-excellent typing and great ability. Imprison is the star of this set; for those of you may be unaware, Imprison is a very old move that allows for its user to block the opposition from using any moves that the user of the move has in its current moveset. This means that, once Imprison is used, Heracross and Pangoro will be unable to use Knock Off against Sableye. Due to its typing, this will render the feared Guts SD Heracross completely unable to touch Sableye. For those who are unaware, Imprison targets the user of the move, which means it will still be effective against Dark-types such as Pangoro, unlike Will-O-Wisp.

Pangoro, however, will still be able to hit Sableye with Ice Punch or Gunk Shot; the defensive EVs are used in order to help cushion the blow from these attacks. However, simply living the attacks is not enough, as Sableye lacks a way to damage Pangoro outside of hitting it with a pitifully-weak Knock Off. To remedy this, dugtrio and I came up with the genius solution of putting Dazzling Gleam on this set. This allows Sableye to handily defeat Pangoro, while simultaneously allowing it to stop other threats such as Espeon from being able to touch it after Imprison. Imprison in tandem with Recover also allows Sableye to block opposing Reuniclus's from healing, making this Pokemon even more useful; a more specially defensive spread can be considered in order to better sponge attacks from this fetus. One of Fairium Z or Psychium Z should be used when using this set, as holding a Z-crystal weakens the initial Knock Off from Heracross and Pangoro. Z-Dazzling Gleam can OHKO Pangoro, while Z-Imprison can give Sableye +2 Special Defense, allowing it to better take on Pokemon such as Reuniclus. This set obviously does not fit on every team, as a Sableye lacking Will-O-Wisp is simply a great deal less threatening in most cases; however, for stall teams, this set is absolutely amazing due to its ability to defeat the aforementioned threats in a single team slot. It is clear that stall clearly has many tools in its disposal to handle the plethora of threats remaining in this tier; if you are one of the poor souls still playing offense in this metagame, I suggest you prepare for these god-like innovations before it is too late.
 
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To be fair the second set had different evs and the Psychium Z slashed as well.

I've been using Yanmega lately and its a brilliant late game cleaner. I don't think the Tinted Lens set is very good - it's not that powerful and I think Moltres and Dragalge are better wallbreakers. However its Speed Boost set is great, it's tough to revenge kill and nigh unstoppable once the special walls /bulky Steel types are gone (Rhyperior can wreck both). This is the set I've been ruining:

Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest nature
- Protect
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power Fire

Pretty self explanatory - use Protect to pick up Speed Boosts, Bug Buzz and Air Slash are the STABs Hidden Power Fire 2HKOs Doublade and Assault Best Escavalier (I think).
 

nomoves4u (Sableye) @ Fairium Z / Psychium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Imprison
- Knock Off
- Dazzling Gleam
- Recover
if you are one of the poor souls still playing offense in this metagame, I suggest you prepare for these god-like innovations before it is too late.

252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 247-292 (81.2 - 96%)
(CB is the guts boost)
I mean Heracross has two STAB to choose from, its movepool isn't that shallow.
 

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252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 247-292 (81.2 - 96%)
(CB is the guts boost)
I mean Heracross has two STAB to choose from, its movepool isn't that shallow.
SD Guts Heracross does not run Megahorn. It runs Close Combat, Knock Off, and Facade. Megahorn is redundant with Knock Off a great deal of the time. Some people choose to run Megahorn over Swords Dance, but the SD variant is by far the most common set. This Sableye is designed to counter that.
 
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