Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 0 (Beta): Green Light (Talonflame Banned)

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Quagsire > Pyukamukyu IMO. Quagsire can still inflict OK damage with Scald and Earthquake, and isn't totally helpless if it's Taunted. It also has arguably better defensive typing, being able to block Volt Switch and only having 1 weakness (albeit a X4 one). Quagsire also has Encore and Haze.
 
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Quagsire > Pyukamukyu IMO. Quagsire can still inflict OK damage with Scald and Earthquake, and isn't totally helpless if it's Taunted. It also has arguably better defensive typing, being able to block Volt Switch and only having 1 weakness (albeit a X4 one). Quagsire also has Encore and Haze.
Good thing with pyukumuku is that pyukumuku isn't instantly dead when hit by a grass move unlike quagsire. Pyukumuku can sometimes survive grass coverage that would faint Quagsire. I'd try Quagsire but Pyukumuku seems to have higher defenses. Quagsire probably is better due to not being utter taunt bait but it really needs help with removing grasses.
 
Quagsire > Pyukamukyu IMO. Quagsire can still inflict OK damage with Scald and Earthquake, and isn't totally helpless if it's Taunted. It also has arguably better defensive typing, being able to block Volt Switch and only having 1 weakness (albeit a X4 one). Quagsire also has Encore and Haze.
Pyuku has the advantage of not being as easy to lure and the ability to more comfortably counter waters. Honestly the unaware role is still pretty debatable at this stage
 
They both have their pros and cons - personally I prefer Quagsire, and it's not quite as much of a momentum sink. It can also hit Espeon for decent damage with Earthquake, who otherwise shuts Pyuku down completely.

Lately I've been using Zoroark and it's been really good. Send it out disguised as Snorlax to lure in the bulky Ghost-types, and smash them with a Dark Pulse. Send it out disguised as a Spike setter to lure Espeon, and again smash it with Dark Pulse. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, you can even send it out disguised as Kommo-O to lure and KO Doublade. It's pretty fast and packs quite a punch, and very customisable too with its great movepool. On the downside, it's frail as hell.
 
Pyukumuku is better for stall than Quagsire. It's just far bulkier. Quagsire loses to most special attackers, Pyukumuku doesn't. Momentum sinks really don't matter on stall when the idea is to have answers for everything in the first place. The key combination to why stall is so good is because of Pyukumuku + Espeon. Pyukumuku single handedly beats well over half the metagame, its main weakness being that it's Taunt bait which Espeon shuts down. Very few Taunt users beat Espeon 1 on 1. This means you have to run Pursuit as well, and there aren't many good things that actually trap Espeon, it can beat most Pursuit users with the right coverage move.
 
I'd like to share a Rhyperior set I've been having some fun with. I think it'll really shine in NU, but it has merit in his tier, too.

Rhyperior @ Rindo Berry
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 176 HP / 16 Atk / 232 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast/Stone Edge
- Ice Punch/Megahorn
- Stealth Rock

Same attack as the old tank set, with enough speed for base 50s like Registeel. Standard moves, you probably all know the pros and cons for the options. Now for the interesting part! The Rindo berry lets you lure in pokemon who are OHKO'd by Rhyperior's moves (or at least take heavy damage), but generally expect to KO it with a grass move. The bulk EVs minimise passive damage, while letting it live some pretty impressive attacks, examples below.

+2 252 SpA Ninetales Solar Beam vs. 176 HP / 232 SpD Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 330-388 (79.5 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Salazzle Hidden Power Grass vs. 176 HP / 232 SpD Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 265-312 (63.8 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 176 HP / 232 SpD Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 369-435 (88.9 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 176 HP / 232 SpD Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 357-423 (86 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Meadow Plate Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 312-369 (75.1 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 176 HP / 232 SpD Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 242-287 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

252 SpA Moltres Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 176 HP / 232 SpD Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 349-412 (84 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 176 HP / 232 SpD Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 196-232 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 176 HP / 232 SpD Rindo Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 316-375 (76.1 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


The set can probably be improved, but you get the idea!
 

Plas

Tournament Banned
is a Tiering Contributor
This man is still RU Frens and no one at all has mentioned this monster

Flygon @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute/U-Turn/Roost/Dragon Claw

With the addition of z-crystals and Flygon FINALLY getting dragon dance, despite not getting a mega, flygon is incredibly powerful this gen. Speed is to outspeed base 130s after +1. This thing with Z move and incredible dual stab hits stupid hard. Even its "Walls" are still taking 70% min from a Dragonium Outrage. Dragon Claw lets you not be locked in, Roost with your bulk is an eh option to not get worn down as easily. Sub let's you sub up on status user or Ches for example if it spiky shield's predicting your z-move or outrage. U-turn allows you to bluff choice item which is pretty cool.

Random Calcs
+1 252+ Atk Flygon Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 267-315 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Flygon Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 357-420 (90.6 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Flygon Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 291-343 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery]


With Haxorus gone, this is our best DDer and still an Incredible one at that. I will probs have replays or something when I get creative and start building finally for this Tier as I've been wrapped up in LC Ssnls recently. [:
 
Alright! Lets talk about fish!

Since the ban of Feraligatr everyone has been talking about its succesor, Bruxish.


Bruxish @ Life Orb
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Aqua Jet

With the recent bans of its two biggest rivals. Bruxish finally has a stage to shine on. Most of us already know what Bruxish does and is capable of.
2 great Fang moves in the form of Crunch and STAB Psychic Fangs that are boosted by its ability Strong Jaw. Aqua jet gives Bruxish a decent STAB priority move finishing of weakened mons that are faster or just frail in general. To make matters more interesting is the acces to Swords Dance. Swords Dance can make certain 2HKO's with either Psychic Fangs or Aqua Jet OHKO's. So basically if you let this pretty little fish set up an SD it will turn into a terifying and quite speedy piranha.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bruxish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 281-330 (116.5 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bruxish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swellow: 222-263 (85 - 100.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bruxish Aqua Jet vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 390-460 (118.9 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Bruxish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 400-473 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Another fish that sort of benefits from the ban of Daunt and Gatr is Sharpedo!

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs

I've been messing around with sharpedo myself on the ladder and found that Sharpedo's main selling point is in its ability, Speed boost. It can outspeeds every relevant mon (bar a +2 Minior and speed tying with a speed boost yanmega) after 2 boosts while still being able to run an Adamant nature. Even tho it has less raw power than Bruxish I find Sharpedo still a great choice as an offensive Water type since it can still hit hard and cut through teams like a knife through butter.
Personally I think its best set at the moment is physical. Especially since most rock types are specially defensive invested (Diancie, gigalith) and all other mons that could check it are already a 2HKO or very close to it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 166-198 (49.8 - 59.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 242-289 (61.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 159-187 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 166-198 (51.7 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 232 HP / 16+ Def Gigalith: 252-299 (68.2 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 317-374 (105.3 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

some replays that showcase how threatning Sharpedo can be:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-551408343
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-553211496
 

Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Def / 204 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Pain Split

Weezing is actually pretty decent right now, as it can annoy a lot of common mons with wisp and taunt. The speed is for min speed Gligar. Weezing is most effective against slowish bulky balance teams with things like Florges. Weezing can also act as a check to Heracross and Fighting types in General. Being that it`s only weakness is Psychic, it pairs well with pursuit. I played some games with this and found it pretty decent as I could just click wisp most of the time if they didn`t have a fire type. I guess any mon with taunt could do some of these things, but Weezing provides nice bulk and wisp. You could also probably use flamethrower/fire blast to hit steel types but I like pain split to have some more recovery other than Black Sludge.
 
Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Def / 204 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Pain Split
While I agree on Weezing being possibly quite useful right now, that spread is sub-optimal. Even if you only care about physical bulk, Weezing's base hp is quite low relative to its defense. To optimise physical bulk with the given speed, the correct spread is EVs: 160 HP / 144 Def / 204 Spe, as this brings the hp and defense stats as close together as possible before applying the beneficial nature. And, of course, the higher hp investment gives greater special bulk.

252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Iron Head vs. 52 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 141-166 (49.6 - 58.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Iron Head vs. 160 HP / 144+ Def Weezing: 153-180 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 52 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 141-167 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 160 HP / 144+ Def Weezing: 153-181 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 152-179 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 152-179 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery


The above calculations also illustrate that the speed investment hurts your bulk a fair bit, here are the same calcs with a full bulk spread.

252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Weezing: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Weezing: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Weezing: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery


With no speed investment, however, taunt becomes significantly less useful and should perhaps be dropped. But on the other hand, there are very few extra physical attackers that extra speed would let you burn before they hit you (mainly donphan and chesnaught, who don't do much to Weezing anyway).

Another option for Weezing to run is Toxic Spikes, which I've found to be occasionally game winning, albeit reliant on you wearing down grounded poison types, most notably Nidoqueen.

Finally I'd like to mention a mon that I think pairs rather nicely with Weezing: Umbreon! They cover each others weaknesses, both in terms of type and physical vs special attackers, and Umbreon provides much appreciated recovery in the form of Wish
 
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We might have a problem ladies and gentlemen...
SD Flame Orb Heracross breaks Stall
Moxie Scarf is a huge, snowballing threat for more offensive teams.

Heracross itself isn't even frail, it is actually bulky on the special defensive side.
The only bad thing about it is that it isn't that fast and 4x weak to flying.

Can we please do something about it(suspect test for example)
 
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We might have a problem ladies and gentlemen...
SD Flame Orb Heracross breaks Stall
Moxie Scarf is a huge, snowballing threat for more offensive teams.

Heracross itself isn't even frail, it is actually bulky on the special defensive side.
The only bad thing about it is that it isn't that fast and 4x weak to flying.

Can we please do something about it(suspect test for example)
Stall can survive due to acrobatics gligar (maxHP/Max Defense), and Espeon (can't switch in, but Psyshock does a ton). Talonflame also does well for this v. offense due to priority flying moves. I don't think heracross is suspect worthy because there are ways to deal with it on both offensive and stall playstyles. The low speed is its biggest drawback, as you said. Heracross is great but probably not broken.
 

Senpai D.M

さようなら
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I agree Heracross is a threat to stall making it unjoyable playstyle, but I feel there's still other threats (lol kingdra) to address before a Heracross suspect. I also going to point out hera can knock off gligar and wear it down, also facade should be used more often imo.

E: thanks for adding to discussion lol
 
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I agree Heracross is a threat to stall making it unjoyable playstyle, but I feel there's still other threats (lol kingdra) to address before a Heracross suspect. I also going to point out hera can knock off gligar and wear it down, also facade should be used more often imo.
Ok, I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm legit curious: other than the fact that it was banned last gen, what exactly are you running on kingdra that you feel so vehemently about it? Cause every time I've used or faced it, it's been the epitome of mediocre.

Critdra is never getting both boosts off vs offense against any competent player, and while it's matchup against bulky teams is obviously better, it's not like once it gets a focus energy up kingdra just 6-0s entire teams, especially with how good shit like florges is. Dragon dance is piss weak and I see legitimately no reason to use this over flygon or kommo-o, other than I guess an easier time getting past shit like donphan and gligar, which is kind of a weak niche given how easily worn down donphan is and the fact that those two can bs past gligar with devastating drake after some chip anyway. Yeah rains a thing, and I feel like thats definitely its most threatening set, but with no autosetter its never feels overwhelming and still has a hard time vs bulkier teams. Idk inform me as to what you're getting out of this thing that I'm not
 

Senpai D.M

さようなら
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm speaking about balance and stall obviously if you're playing offense it doesn't seem like a threat I don't even need to explain a set that gives said playstyles trouble but I guess I'm the wrong for not worrying about what hurts offense.
 
I'm speaking about balance and stall obviously if you're playing offense it doesn't seem like a threat I don't even need to explain a set that gives said playstyles trouble but I guess I'm the wrong for not worrying about what hurts offense.
I've played more than offense and still never been too threatened... People seem to be on the same page as me so either u have some sage wisdom we need dropped about Kingdra or you've got this a little twisted. Entertain me and elaborate here
 
RE:


If you've seen me in the RU room, you already know how I feel about this 'mon. I think the fact that Guts SD completely invalidates stall just by existing (unless you use something unnecessarily niche like Colbur/Z-move Cofagrigus/Slowbro) is a good sign that there's a problem here. For reference, I'm speaking of and advise this set:

Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Knock Off

There are essentially no defensive stops to this. Fairies are 2HKOd by Guts-boosted Facade and OHKO'd at +2, most physically bulky 'mons (Donphan, Chesnaught, Nidoqueen, etc.) take one hit at best and don't even OHKO back, thanks to Hera's above average 80/75/95 bulk. Even Gligar, one of the most physically bulky mons in the tier, is 2HKOd after having its Eviolite Knocked Off, which is as simple as clicking Knock the first time Hera comes in and watching the Evio go away. It cleanly 2HKO's Pyukumuku without boosts after Guts is activated, unlike most other boosting mons. It can't be pursuit trapped, so it's not as if it destroys stall but pretty much gets one kill then dies if there's an Escav or whatever in the back (Hoopa). It isn't choice locked, like a lot of other ridiculous breakers, so it requires minimal prediction to tear apart defensive playstyles. And on top of all this, it doesn't do any recoil to itself bar Burn damage and cares little for Toxic Spikes, so your only method of whittling it quickly is something such as Rocky Helmet Druddigon.

The worst part is, it's not even limited to tearing stall a new one - it bones Balance just as hard as far as switchins go, and is only redeemed by the fact that its middling speed can cause it to be forced out vs offensive threats such as Salazzle, Swellow, Talonflame and the like. However, unlike most offensive threats, it can actually come in on the more passive mons on Balance teams due to a combination of its aforementioned good bulk and nice defensive typing that comes with resists to common types such as Fighting, Ground, and Dark, and start clicking its unresisted coverage to nab KOs.

Finally, Flame Orb - while being its only broken set - isn't its only viable set, and before you see the Orb activate you have no idea whether it is Scarf or not. This leads to a rather unfun game of "guess-the-set" for Offense, where if they leave in an offensive mon expecting Flame Orb they can get nailed by a speedy Megahorn, or switch in their one check and have it get taken down by a coverage move, leaving the team vulnerable to it later.

All in all, I just think that Flame Orb Hera creates a presence that is as a whole unhealthy for the tier, and should be looked at for voting on by the council or suspected or some such action.
 
RE:


If you've seen me in the RU room, you already know how I feel about this 'mon. I think the fact that Guts SD completely invalidates stall just by existing (unless you use something unnecessarily niche like Colbur/Z-move Cofagrigus/Slowbro) is a good sign that there's a problem here. For reference, I'm speaking of and advise this set:

Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Knock Off

There are essentially no defensive stops to this. Fairies are 2HKOd by Guts-boosted Facade and OHKO'd at +2, most physically bulky 'mons (Donphan, Chesnaught, Nidoqueen, etc.) take one hit at best and don't even OHKO back, thanks to Hera's above average 80/75/95 bulk. Even Gligar, one of the most physically bulky mons in the tier, is 2HKOd after having its Eviolite Knocked Off, which is as simple as clicking Knock the first time Hera comes in and watching the Evio go away. It cleanly 2HKO's Pyukumuku without boosts after Guts is activated, unlike most other boosting mons. It can't be pursuit trapped, so it's not as if it destroys stall but pretty much gets one kill then dies if there's an Escav or whatever in the back (Hoopa). It isn't choice locked, like a lot of other ridiculous breakers, so it requires minimal prediction to tear apart defensive playstyles. And on top of all this, it doesn't do any recoil to itself bar Burn damage and cares little for Toxic Spikes, so your only method of whittling it quickly is something such as Rocky Helmet Druddigon.

The worst part is, it's not even limited to tearing stall a new one - it bones Balance just as hard as far as switchins go, and is only redeemed by the fact that its middling speed can cause it to be forced out vs offensive threats such as Salazzle, Swellow, Talonflame and the like. However, unlike most offensive threats, it can actually come in on the more passive mons on Balance teams due to a combination of its aforementioned good bulk and nice defensive typing that comes with resists to common types such as Fighting, Ground, and Dark, and start clicking its unresisted coverage to nab KOs.

Finally, Flame Orb - while being its only broken set - isn't its only viable set, and before you see the Orb activate you have no idea whether it is Scarf or not. This leads to a rather unfun game of "guess-the-set" for Offense, where if they leave in an offensive mon expecting Flame Orb they can get nailed by a speedy Megahorn, or switch in their one check and have it get taken down by a coverage move, leaving the team vulnerable to it later.

All in all, I just think that Flame Orb Hera creates a presence that is as a whole unhealthy for the tier, and should be looked at for voting on by the council or suspected or some such action.
Yeah you're giving this thing way too much credit. First off, I don't think Z-Move Slowbro is "ridiculously niche", thats been shown to be one of it's best sets, and colbur's relatively common as well and really isn't going too far out of your way to stop anything. Yeah gligar gets 2HKO'd with no eviolite, but it also always runs acro on stall so can deal with it handily as long as you don't switch it into knock off. Finally,if nothing else stall always runs espeon, and while yeah obviously hera can just switch out, but thats not only forcing you to let something else get hit by espeon, but then hera has to come back in on hazards which wears it down quickly in combination with burn.

Heracross is easily a top tier mon and obviously an amazing stall breaker, but it's not at all an auto win and not nearly broken imo
 
While Heracross is very strong, and maybe the best mon in the tier right now. The idea that it invalidates stall is a complete myth. That Heracross set is everywhere yet a number of the top teams on the ladder are stall. Heracross doesn't simply 6-0 stall like people are making out. Firstly it gets worn down extremely fast between it's Flame Orb and hazards. And there's not many mons on stall it actually just comes in on and goes to town. Umbreon is pretty much the only one.

Yes in theory you can combine it with Healing Wish, but the Healing Wish options in the tier aren't that wide, and also stall can see this coming a mile away and knock off your flame orb, at which point the threat to stall becomes much less.

While I'm not particularly for or against a Heracross ban. If you start banning things Heracross, Pyukumuku absolutely needs to be looked at, as a number of the recent bans have been heavily favourable for stall, while stall keeps all it's pieces in tact getting stronger as the number of things that do work vs it get less and less. Pyukumuku alone walls about 70% of the tier, the old characteristics aren't used anymore, but that 100% fits the defensive criteria that used to exist.
 
While Heracross is very strong, and maybe the best mon in the tier right now. The idea that it invalidates stall is a complete myth. That Heracross set is everywhere yet a number of the top teams on the ladder are stall. Heracross doesn't simply 6-0 stall like people are making out. Firstly it gets worn down extremely fast between it's Flame Orb and hazards. And there's not many mons on stall it actually just comes in on and goes to town. Umbreon is pretty much the only one.

Yes in theory you can combine it with Healing Wish, but the Healing Wish options in the tier aren't that wide, and also stall can see this coming a mile away and knock off your flame orb, at which point the threat to stall becomes much less.

While I'm not particularly for or against a Heracross ban. If you start banning things Heracross, Pyukumuku absolutely needs to be looked at, as a number of the recent bans have been heavily favourable for stall, while stall keeps all it's pieces in tact getting stronger as the number of things that do work vs it get less and less. Pyukumuku alone walls about 70% of the tier, the old characteristics aren't used anymore, but that 100% fits the defensive criteria that used to exist.
Firsty, you are massively understating the number of mons Hera comes in on and threatens out on stall and balance.

Viable defensive mons that Hera comes in on in the tier: Bronzong, Chesnaught, Donphan, Defensive Nidoqueen, any bulky waters bar Air Slash Mantine and the Slow duo, Sableye, Registeel, Shedinja, Porygon2, rare but underrated Cryogonal, and the aforementioned Umbreon. That's a lot more than just one - in fact, that's a bit over half of usable defensive/stall mons.

Hazards are a poor argument against Heracross when there are about 2 hazard setters that are good on stall that don't let Hera in for 100% free (Diancie and Acro Gligar.) Given that Hera doesn't often come in on hazards - and even when it does, it only takes 12% - it takes quite a while to whittle since Burn damage is very minimal, and Stall doesn't often have much offensive pressure to put on it to deter it for coming in.

There aren't many Healing Wish users in the tier, but it really doesn't help that the best one (Gardevoir) pairs very well with Heracross and is and of itself an excellent mon.

Lastly, for the record, invalidating stall and bulky playstyles doesn't necessarily mean that it 6-0s them. All it needs to do in many cases is irreparably cripple the team so that it is unable to handle Hera's teammates, kinda like any other wallbreaker. The problem arises when it does this much too well, which it does. I'm by no means saying that Colbur/Z move Slowbro is bad, but you shouldn't have to have counterplay that terribly specfic just to not lose to one mon. This rings terribly simialr to Haxorus vs stall teams - despize, for example, included Avalugg on his stall simply because nothing else walled Haxorus, and Heracross while not at that extent is terribly close.

Finally,if nothing else stall always runs espeon, and while yeah obusg hera can just switch out, but thats not only forcing you to let something else get hit by espeon, but then hera has to come back in on hazards which wears it down quickly in combination with burn.
There is absolutely a problem when Stall has to resort to revenge killing to deal with one threat alone. I don't know how such a suggestion could possibly be seen as balanced.
 
I agree on the fact that Waterium-Z Slowbro is far from a niche set. Its a good set (too much toxic on the ladder tho D: )

And I agree on the fact that Flame orb might not 6-0 stall by itself but I dont agree on a few point from you guys.
1) gligar does not always run Acrobatics on stall. Its forced(!) to run Acrobatics on stall due to Heracross which makes it forced to run a sub-par set.
2) Espeon is never "always on stall". Even if it is used, it can never switch in on heracross unless its after a sack and even then it can still be pursuit trapped leaving your check dead.
3) "And there's not many mons on stall it actually just comes in on and goes to town." it doesnt really need to. It can be brought on the field with help of Voltturn or even after a sack ready to revenge kill.
4) Heracross doesnt need to 6-0 stall to completely invalidate it. Stall is based on 6 mons with such synergy they form a 6-man wall against the opposing team trying to whittle down the opposing team with whatever plan they have. But if either 1 or 2 mons from that wall are eliminated, the stall team will be heavily crippled but could still function. but Heracross can easily break 3-4 mons in 1 game alone making the live of stall miserably hard to stand a chance for the remaining of the team or basically leaving them with very little chance of winning.
Someone in the chat (pancake I believe) said pokemon is also a game of adepting to new situations, which I agree completely with, but stall cant adept to Heracross when its only "reliable" answer is Colbur Berry Cofagrigus. Funfact Flame Orb can run Mega Horn over Knock Off so even Waterium Z Slowbro isnt safe.
And no I dont find Acrobatics Gligar a reliable answer when it can be surprised with this damage.
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 310-365 (93 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

All other problems Flame Orb heracross can cause has been told by Cyanize. But i want to add that in my experience of running both balance and FO hera myself all other playstyles have a less hard time dealing with heracross basically because Heracross can be played around due to the options of either being faster than the Flame orb set or work around the low(er) damage output from the scarf set which also can be abused.
 
There is absolutely a problem when Stall has to resort to revenge killing to deal with one threat alone. I don't know how such a suggestion could possibly be seen as balanced.
...what.

Stall revenging a dangerous breaker isn't a new or broken thing at all. That's the entire point of dugtrio in ou, for example, to revenge kill breakers. For a more comparable example, however, look at togekiss in uu. It could completely dismantle stall, except for the fact that uu stall runs mega aero, which, shocker, revenges it. Yeah aero can come in on it too bar twave, which isnt something espy can claim about heracross, but stall having to revenge a breaker isn't some huge, oh my god this is so broken thing, stall runs things specifically for that purpose. Also, again, those slowbro sets aren't really niche and are most certainly not there just to kinda stop heracross lol. And btw to the way to the post above... yeah, no espeon is always on stall, or at least if its a decent team it should be. I fail to see your point about gligar having to run acrobatics, stall running moves to not lose to prominent breakers isn't a new thing.
 
...what.

Stall revenging a dangerous breaker isn't a new or broken thing at all. That's the entire point of dugtrio in ou, for example, to revenge kill breakers. For a more comparable example, however, look at togekiss in uu. It could completely dismantle stall, except for the fact that uu stall runs mega aero, which, shocker, revenges it. Yeah aero can come in on it too bar twave, which isnt something espy can claim about heracross, but stall having to revenge a breaker isn't some huge, oh my god this is so broken thing, stall runs things specifically for that purpose. Also, again, those slowbro sets aren't really niche and are most certainly not there just to kinda stop heracross lol. And btw to the way to the post above... yeah, no espeon is always on stall, or at least if its a decent team it should be. I fail to see your point about gligar having to run acrobatics, stall running moves to not lose to prominent breakers isn't a new thing.
I don't claim to know anything about UU, so I won't comment there. Though for what it's worth, there is the fact that Mega Aero is much more threatening than a SDef Espeon will ever be.

I will say, however, that Dugtrio actually, y'know, traps the things that annoy stall for a guaranteed KO as opposed to forcing it out, doing some damage to one mon then potentially getting trapped itself. Not to mention in order to bring Espeon in to RK, something would have to be KO'd in the first place due to most Stall mons not using U-turn/Volt Switch and BP being banned. That is not the case on OU stall, so comparing Espeon on Dugtrio is not fair to your argument.

Finally, forcing a playstyle to adapt to using a subpar moveset just in order to check one threat is usually a good sign that that threat is unhealthy and likely merits a suspect - the concept of overcentralization. Just because it's been done before doesn't make that any less true.

Edit: Actually, you kinda proved my point right. UU Stall including Mega Aero means that it actually has a switchin to Toge, and as such doesn't have to sacrifice a mon to threat it out offensively. However, RU stall is essentially forced to sac a mon then attempt to revenge Hera, on which it can simply switch and return later whether by pivoting, double switches, or after having a mon be KO'd on its side.
 
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And btw to the way to the post above... yeah, no espeon is always on stall, or at least if its a decent team it should be. I fail to see your point about gligar having to run acrobatics, stall running moves to not lose to prominent breakers isn't a new thing.
yeah... no, espeon is not always on stall. A magic bouncer is a very good option for stall but Espeon is never always on the team. Espeon faces competition from Xatu as a magic bouncer and from Cresselia, a stall staple, as a psychic cm user.

And concerning my point on Gligar running Acrobatics. I never said that stall running moves for prominent threats is a new thing. I agree on mons having to run certain moves to check certain threats for example, HP Fire Espeon. But my point is that if stall is forced to run 1 specifc move on a mon to check Heracross while still being a very shaky check. When it otherwise would provide much more utility in the form of Knock Off, Toxic or U-turn, which are far better options for Gligar to run.
 
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