Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 11 - Break The Ice

[udongirl]

That's a bit ridiculous, it's been shown that even Blissey can't wall it perfectly and Kyurem still has ways of breaking it. SpD Blissey isn't a proper answer to it since it limits Blissey's utility, which is the only way to "perfectly check specs Kyurem" barring a crit. Additionally, this IS a problem, regardless of the breakers that are meant to stop it ,which as you are saying, has to be predicted PERFECTLY. It has been proven that Kyurem's coverage, set variety, and bulk pose a threat to stuff that's just supposed to wall it let alone check it. The fact that there isn't a proper universal counter to Kyurem is overcentralizing for something such as itself.

Your argument is difficult to read or agree with since its basis is plainly ignoring the fact that Kyurem's coverage, set versatility, and bulk blatantly threaten teambuilding. The 6v6 scenario is far more important than 1v1, which your argument (actively or not) highlights. This is a false analysis of it collectively as it is not considering the impact of Kyurem across the tier, rather, to its individual checks.

Why do I have to think about crit? And blissey dont need SpD EVs to stop specs focus blast.
I won't mention versatility and coverage because another players already said. Its bulk and moves are excellent. I think so too‚ but 'excellent' and 'broken' is different.
And I have already refered to counter. There are many mons like that. Do you need examples? Tapu Lele. Kartana. It is true that you need more than 2 counters to check all sets. But their utility aren't bad so it's not hard to build a team which can cope with ALL kyurem and not bad to another mons. It is naturally to prepare multiple mons to strong pokemon.

 

[BT89]

Why do I have to think about crit? And blissey dont need SpD EVs to stop specs focus blast.
I won't mention versatility and coverage because another players already said. Its bulk and moves are excellent. I think so too‚ but 'excellent' and 'broken' is different.
And I have already refered to counter. There are many mons like that. Do you need examples? Tapu Lele. Kartana. It is true that you need more than 2 counters to check all sets. But their utility aren't bad so it's not hard to build a team which can cope with ALL kyurem and not bad to another mons. It is naturally to prepare multiple mons to strong pokemon.

What differentiates Kyurem from Pokemon like Lele and Kart is that Kyurem has multiple sets that have completely different checks and counters, while Lele and Kart sets usually have some form of consistent counter. And besides, I never really need two counters to these mons on every team I make, but for Kyurem, it’s genuinely impossible to get a counter for your team that isn’t bad outsides that match up (Scizor, Blissey). Kyurem’s unparalleled versatility compared to your so-called “examples”, who usually are only seen using two sets compared to Kyurem’s five (over DOUBLE the amount) makes it much harder to account for in the builder.

Anyways, I would contribute my thoughts about Kyurem, but it’s generally nothing that other people on this thread haven’t explained thoroughly. Due to its amazing/perfect coverage, unparalleled amount of versatility, and how much it demands in terms of building and playing, I would advise people to vote to ban Kyurem.

 

[Temperance_PS]

Why do I have to think about crit? And blissey dont need SpD EVs to stop specs focus blast.
I won't mention versatility and coverage because another players already said. Its bulk and moves are excellent. I think so too‚ but 'excellent' and 'broken' is different.
And I have already refered to counter. There are many mons like that. Do you need examples? Tapu Lele. Kartana. It is true that you need more than 2 counters to check all sets. But their utility aren't bad so it's not hard to build a team which can cope with ALL kyurem and not bad to another mons. It is naturally to prepare multiple mons to strong pokemon.

At first, I felt like leaving my involvement where it was, but I feel the need to solve misinformation when I see it.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Blissey does NOT deal with Focus Blast without Special Defense EVs. At least, not reliably. More than half of the time, if you keep Blissey in to Soft-Boiled, it falls, and -- uh oh! Now you're dealing with a Choice Specs Kyurem without your Ice Beam switchin because Blissey tried to deal with something it couldn't.

With a Calm Nature, the situation is different, but not by much.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Blissey: 302-356 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Your Blissey theoretically should take just less than half from every Focus Blast, though there's a problem with that. And that's the fact that if Blissey is chipped even a little, it becomes more risky to switch it in on Kyurem. I've seen talk about these EVs before, too.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Blissey: 290-342 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This gives you substansially more breathing room in terms of checking Kyurem, but substantially LESS when it comes to Pokemon like Dragapult, Corviknight and Tornadus-Therian clicking U-turn on the Blissey.

U-turn Calcs For Reference

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Blissey: 118-139 (16.5 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Blissey: 101-119 (14.1 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Blissey: 100-118 (14 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO

In comparison to...
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 81-96 (11.3 - 13.4%) -- possible 8HKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 82-97 (11.4 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 96-114 (13.4 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO

(In general, it's not a great idea to have Blissey in front of Tornadus-Therian anyways, since it despises getting hit with Knock Off. It's worth mentioning, though, since I've seen people switch Blissey in on it due to them not having a sturdy Tornadus answer.)

At first, these don't seem that astonishing, but you must realize that when Corviknight is dealing more U-turn chip, this forces Blissey to Soft-Boiled more in tandem just to deal with Kyurem. Not to mention, this ALSO makes Blissey weaker against teams that don't involve Kyurem, causing it to be more passive than it already is.

Dealing with Kyurem should not be taken easily. There's no consistent answer to Kyurem that isn't pathetically passive when doing anything else against the opposing team. Specially Defensive Scizor and 56+ SpD Blissey are steps taken to help deal with the matchup better, but both Pokemon will likely suffer a massive fallout if Kyurem leaves the tier.

 

[Xufactor]

At first, I felt like leaving my involvement where it was, but I feel the need to solve misinformation when I see it.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Blissey does NOT deal with Focus Blast without Special Defense EVs. At least, not reliably. More than half of the time, if you keep Blissey in to Soft-Boiled, it falls, and -- uh oh! Now you're dealing with a Choice Specs Kyurem without your Ice Beam switchin because Blissey tried to deal with something it couldn't.

With a Calm Nature, the situation is different, but not by much.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Blissey: 302-356 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Your Blissey theoretically should take just less than half from every Focus Blast, though there's a problem with that. And that's the fact that if Blissey is chipped even a little, it becomes more risky to switch it in on Kyurem. I've seen talk about these EVs before, too.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Blissey: 290-342 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This gives you substansially more breathing room in terms of checking Kyurem, but substantially LESS when it comes to Pokemon like Dragapult, Corviknight and Tornadus-Therian clicking U-turn on the Blissey.

U-turn Calcs For Reference

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Blissey: 118-139 (16.5 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Blissey: 101-119 (14.1 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Blissey: 100-118 (14 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO

In comparison to...
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 81-96 (11.3 - 13.4%) -- possible 8HKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 82-97 (11.4 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 96-114 (13.4 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO

(In general, it's not a great idea to have Blissey in front of Tornadus-Therian anyways, since it despises getting hit with Knock Off. It's worth mentioning, though, since I've seen people switch Blissey in on it due to them not having a sturdy Tornadus answer.)

At first, these don't seem that astonishing, but you must realize that when Corviknight is dealing more U-turn chip, this forces Blissey to Soft-Boiled more in tandem just to deal with Kyurem. Not to mention, this ALSO makes Blissey weaker against teams that don't involve Kyurem, causing it to be more passive than it already is.

Dealing with Kyurem should not be taken easily. There's no consistent answer to Kyurem that isn't pathetically passive when doing anything else against the opposing team. Specially Defensive Scizor and 56+ SpD Blissey are steps taken to help deal with the matchup better, but both Pokemon will likely suffer a massive fallout if Kyurem leaves the tier.

Why are you not using 252 def Blissey?

I use 200 HP / 252 Def / 56+ SpD Blissey so it’s HP is approximately equal to double its spD.

 

[Temperance_PS]

Why are you not using 252 def Blissey?

I use 200 HP / 252 Def / 56+ SpD Blissey so it’s HP is approximately equal to double its spD.

My bad, you caught my mixup. I felt like something was wrong, but didn't know what. Thank you!

Edit:

Updated Calcs Here

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 105-124 (14.9 - 17.6%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 89-105 (12.6 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 90-106 (12.8 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO

Marginally better than I thought. This does indeed take better advantage of Blissey's special bulk, but I wouldn't use it as a reason to keep Kyurem in the tier, considering the matchup is still inconsistent either way, with Kyurem's sets being hard to spot in an instant/Blissey usually being abnormally passive outside of the Kyurem matchup. Still an improvement on Blissey overall, though.

 

[remetagross]

Has anyone run with a Rock Slide Kyurem these days? I have not, so I've been running bulky Volcarona with Bug Buzz to bypass Substitute as my Kuyrem answer. There's a Tapu Lele too to halve the power of Draco Meteor.

I still believe Kyurem to be banworthy, though. These bulky SubDD replays are truly disgusting. That' what's pushing it over the top for me.

 

[Master Radomus]

I'm doing some testing to give my full analysis & feedback regarding Kyurem in the current meta. I typically don't add any form of legendary pokemon to teams I commonly use because I like to bring out the best in pokemon that don't typically get spotlight and with that said, here are my base opinions without testing the pokemon so far...
- Dealing with Kyurem:
Kyurem is never an issue to deal with because its typing is *weak*. I don't understand why people believe his typing to be versatile or good by any means. Dragon is already good against dragon so it doesn't make him a better match up against dragon types. It doesn't make Kyurem a better match up against fairy types, it barely makes him a better match up against other ice types. He is stronger against grass but grass is already at a disadvantage against dragon. He is stronger against flying. He is stronger against ground. You get the point.

However, these minor advantages don't make up for the fact he becomes weak to fighting, neutral to fire, neutral to ice (which isn't a disadvantage but a "benefit of being an ice type"), weak to steel which was always a bad match up made worse, and rock which... yikes. Dealing with Kyurem is easy. You have two ways to build him which makes him versatile but due to the lack of resistances it really boils down to crossing your fingers that they make a few bad moves so you can set up to "sweep". I've had no issues dealing with Kyurem regardless of the team I've used recently because Icicle Spear on anything but Cloyster sucks. Let's be real: I'm going to swap into a steel type and you're going to lose a turn dealing with that fact because you don't have good moves to deal with it and that's exactly what I did.


Now I'll take a look at Kyurem for myself and I'll give my full step by step.
- Preparing my Kyurem:
I start off looking at abilities. Okay. Pressure. Pressure is awful. Anyone who says Pressure is a useful ability probably thinks Toxic on Salazzle is too OP. Next I begin looking into his moves. I see Dragon Dance so I see potential. I grab it and immediately prepare myself to make a physical sweeper. I use relatively slow pokemon normally so to me a base 95 speed with Dragon Dance is easily useable especially since his bulk gives an extra turn for set up on the right switch in. Pretty neat. Let's look at the physical moves. Rock Slide is good. Potential to flinch, decent coverage especially against threats like Volcarona, works good with Dragon Dance. Let's go with that. We want to have some good STAB moves so let's look at the options. Icicle... Spear... I guess? I see why people chose to use Icicle Spear... it's the only option they have. That's actually terrible it's not even worth it. Let's look at dragon moves. Dragon Claw is typically solid... I guess?

So there are no good moves to make use of with Dragon Dance. Okay. I'll be honest, I'd rather make it a specially bulky sweeper with Breaking Swipe and Dragon Dance to give Kyurem some actual use because Icicle Spear and Dragon Claw will do nothing. That's more of a gimmicky and less of a meta build though so I'll just move on to re-considering making him a physical attacker. So I look at the special moves and they're very solid. Draco Meteor is great, he has a lot of solid special moves. The issue is he doesn't have a way to buff them so he can't sweep with special solo. Going for both physical and special is an option but it's a mediocre option since there are no physical moves that can really abuse it. Unfortunately he has no priority moves either...

To decide on the version of Kyurem we want to use, we'll use one recommended from the starting post. They have... Freeze Dry / Earth Power / Roost or Dragon Dance / Icicle Spear / Substitute... okay. Let's attempt the physical sweeper version.

Now for the items. One recommendation is the Heavy-Duty boots but an item slot to prevent potential hazards for just one pokemon is a waste. Another recommendation is leftovers. Leftovers are solid because of the bulk... but did I just hear "make use of pressure" and "stalling"? Roost is great, truly, and Kyurem's HP is magnificent but are we forgetting that other sweepers exist? Kartana pops up to Kyurem as a two free buffs and one less pokemon for the opponent. Saying that makes Pressure a viable ability is like saying you want to see Blissey with Pressure because it can use Hard Boiled and maybe PP stall Sucker Punch.

Enough ranting, let's go ahead and add those leftovers. Now we have our pokemon. We're going with the recommended physical sweep build + leftovers to make use of bulk. Let's go right into the battles. I'll share my results with minor changes to Kyurem as I go.
The results:
Battle 1: Swapped Kyurem up against a burned Mamoswine dragon danced twice. They swapped in Tapu Lele and did 90% with one "unbuffed" psychic. Doesn't seem like I'll be PP stalling anytime soon but I didn't need to. I got lucky with Icicle Spear and took out Tapu Lele and swept his team with just Kyurem. Kyurem v Toxapex, Mamoswine, Tapu Lele, Corviknight.
Status: Swept
Battle 2: Kyurem (with 2 dance stacks) took out two pokemon before getting one shot by a Scarfed Barraskewda with Close Combat.
Status: Lost, but Kyurem was still useful.
Battle 3: Kyurem got Body Pressed.
Status: Fodder.
Battle 4: Kyurem v Clefable won. Kyurem lost to Mimikyu Shadow Sneak priority.
Battle 5: Revenge killed Volcarona. Kyurem lost to Ferrothorn Gyro Ball after dealing 20% with Icicle Spear from +1 Dragon Dance.

My overview because it's late:
Kyurem has plenty of counters and while its stats are versatile, his moveset is not. His ability does not make up for his weaknesses and his typing makes him weak to really strong pokemon already. He is neat but weaker than Kartana, Volcarona, and many other sweepers that have much more going for them. Kyurem is carried by his stats which keeps him from being bad, so he's "decent" but not uber worthy.

P.S. Yeah two focus blasts from Kyurem against Scizor would be pretty strong. One fiery dance from Volcarona is pretty strong too. Scizor is good to get a good Sword Dance in before potentially sweeping with Bullet Punch which Kyurem also loses in 2 shots to Main post.

 

[Smashburn]

Why do I have to think about crit? And blissey dont need SpD EVs to stop specs focus blast.
I won't mention versatility and coverage because another players already said. Its bulk and moves are excellent. I think so too‚ but 'excellent' and 'broken' is different.
And I have already refered to counter. There are many mons like that. Do you need examples? Tapu Lele. Kartana. It is true that you need more than 2 counters to check all sets. But their utility aren't bad so it's not hard to build a team which can cope with ALL kyurem and not bad to another mons. It is naturally to prepare multiple mons to strong pokemon.

I believe Temperance_PS best pointed out that you're playing with fire attempting to have Blissey deal with something it just can't. Secondly, I think it has been made extremely obvious that this claim is false and Blissey absolutely needs SpD EVs to even "reliably" stop Focus Blast, with the roll for taking 2 Focus Blasts from Kyurem being highly unfavorable.

BT89 also gave some insight to your "examples." Tapu Lele and Kartana have consistent linear roles and limited variety in sets that make them much easier to account for when teambuilding, whereas Kyurem has a variety of sets which require different answers that demand more from teambuilding. Role compression such as SpD Scizor and SpD Blissey can makes teams unreliable at best when attempting to deal with Kyurem.

Additionally, Kyurem quite literally fits on everything, whereas Tapu Lele and Kartana are more limited. You wouldn't happen to have seen Tapu Lele or Kartana Semi-Stall recently, have you?

 

[Ruft]

- Preparing my Kyurem:
I start off looking at abilities. Okay. Pressure. Pressure is awful. Anyone who says Pressure is a useful ability probably thinks Toxic on Salazzle is too OP.

Leftovers are solid because of the bulk... but did I just hear "make use of pressure" and "stalling"? Roost is great, truly, and Kyurem's HP is magnificent but are we forgetting that other sweepers exist? Kartana pops up to Kyurem as a two free buffs and one less pokemon for the opponent. Saying that makes Pressure a viable ability is like saying you want to see Blissey with Pressure because it can use Hard Boiled and maybe PP stall Sucker Punch.

These statements about Pressure are frankly asinine. You seem to completely miss the point behind Kyurem's Substitute sets (main ones being Substitute + Dragon Dance + Icicle Spear + Roost and Substitute + Freeze-Dry + Earth Power + Roost). That you seem to consider moves like Rock Slide, Dragon Claw and Breaking Swipe as good moves on Dragon Dance Kyurem over Substitute and even Icicle Spear is proof of this. The fact that Kyurem has the ability Pressure alongside its great bulk is exactly what makes sets like Sub DD Kyurem as effective as they are.

Take a look at this replay from SCL for example; despite Eo having multiple Steel-types and multiple Ice resists including a Flash Cannon Heatran and a Body Press Slowbro, Felix's Sub DD Kyurem is virtually unstoppable because it Pressure stalls Heatran out of its Flash Cannon and Magma Storm PP and subsequently 6-0s. Another example is my game vs Trosko for World Cup; despite having multiple Steel-types and a Clefable, my Clefable gets Pressure stalled out of Moonblast PP and my Steel-types get frozen (which didn't matter much since they were losing anyway) and Kyurem subsequently 6-0s.
(For the record, I don't blame Kyurem's bustedness for my loss this game as the Heatran I brought was actually a Melmetal prior that I changed out to improve my Volcarona matchup and admittedly I didn't play the game too well either, but it's a good example for the point I'm making. Then again, the fact that there are a multitude of seemingly solid teams that get 6-0d by a single Kyurem set, which has now happened quite a number of times in official tournaments, can give you an idea of what I'm going to vote (ban).)

Icicle... Spear... I guess? I see why people chose to use Icicle Spear... it's the only option they have. That's actually terrible it's not even worth it.

Icicle Spear is frankly one of the best moves Sub DD Kyurem could have asked for, as it has an obscene 48 PP which is perfect for a Pressure stalling mono-attacking wincon.

There are many more parts of your post that reek of inexperience regarding Kyurem and the SS OU metagame at large (no competent player uses Choice Scarf Barraskewda, they use Swift Swim) and I suggest getting (a lot) more familiar with the metagame before posting in suspect test discussions again.

I typically don't add any form of legendary pokemon to teams I commonly use because I like to bring out the best in pokemon that don't typically get spotlight and with that said, here are my base opinions without testing the pokemon so far...

lol

 

[Ehmcee]

Welcome to smogon! I think your post seems to be misguided with a few things that Kyurem can actually do in the metagame, so here' a few criticisms of your post.

- Dealing with Kyurem:
Kyurem is never an issue to deal with because its typing is *weak*. I don't understand why people believe his typing to be versatile or good by any means. Dragon is already good against dragon so it doesn't make him a better match up against dragon types. It doesn't make Kyurem a better match up against fairy types, it barely makes him a better match up against other ice types. He is stronger against grass but grass is already at a disadvantage against dragon. He is stronger against flying. He is stronger against ground. You get the point.

However, these minor advantages don't make up for the fact he becomes weak to fighting, neutral to fire, neutral to ice (which isn't a disadvantage but a "benefit of being an ice type"), weak to steel which was always a bad match up made worse, and rock which... yikes. Dealing with Kyurem is easy. You have two ways to build him which makes him versatile but due to the lack of resistances it really boils down to crossing your fingers that they make a few bad moves so you can set up to "sweep". I've had no issues dealing with Kyurem regardless of the team I've used recently because Icicle Spear on anything but Cloyster sucks. Let's be real: I'm going to swap into a steel type and you're going to lose a turn dealing with that fact because you don't have good moves to deal with it and that's exactly what I did.

Personally i feel that looking at Kyurem through the lens of a dragon pokemon doesn't tend to be a particularly useful analysis, but more to the fact that it's a powerful ice type pokemon with the added resistances of a dragon type. There's a reason why basically every other ice type used in OU are very frail and tend to only be used for breaking/sweeping with good offensive stats (think Weavile, Arctozt and Mamoswine, Ninetales-A is an exception due to how busted Aurora Veil is). Ice is a terrible defensive typing, but Kyurem having an added dragon type gives it a crucial resistance to water, allowing it to usually come in on water types and using them for setup or simply trying to break through them.


There are not only two ways to build around Kyurem, there are a variety of sets that all have a different list of checks and counters, the main sets include:

Sub Roost 2 Attacks
Sub DD
Specs
Never Melt Ice
Scarf (imo the worst set)
https://pokepast.es/93fe90c58fad56a7 (Sets)

The notion that icicle spear sucks on anything but Cloyster is fairly misguided, but I'll explain in more detail with your post talking about pressure.

Now I'll take a look at Kyurem for myself and I'll give my full step by step.
- Preparing my Kyurem:
I start off looking at abilities. Okay. Pressure. Pressure is awful. Anyone who says Pressure is a useful ability probably thinks Toxic on Salazzle is too OP.

While I would agree that Pressure is usually a useless ability on most legendaries, apart from like, Suicune, Kyurem's stats and Movepool allow it to abuse it very well.

There are two kinds of set that mainly aim to abuse Pressure, Sub Roost 2 Attacks as well as Sub DD.

These sets aim to get opportunities to sub up and use pressure to wittle down the pp of pokemon effectively.
For example, SpDef DD Kyurem can use it's great bulk in conjunction with substitute and roost to stall out pokemon like Clefable which should in theory be able to counter it. The reason why sub DD tends to do this even better than sub roost is because of the crazy 48pp that icicle spear has, which makes it a very spammable option while under a substitute, allowing it to effectively outstall a Toxapex.

Now for the items. One recommendation is the Heavy-Duty boots but an item slot to prevent potential hazards for just one pokemon is a waste. Another recommendation is leftovers. Leftovers are solid because of the bulk... but did I just hear "make use of pressure" and "stalling"? Roost is great, truly, and Kyurem's HP is magnificent but are we forgetting that other sweepers exist? Kartana pops up to Kyurem as a two free buffs and one less pokemon for the opponent.

Heavy-Duty-Boots is absolutely not a waste on Kyurem, taking 25% every time you switch into rocks is very substantial and means you can substitute one less time, making it generally better than leftovers.

Against a usual substitute stall Kyurem, if Kartana comes in that usually means that either:

1. Kyurem just killed a mon

2. Kyurem has a substitute up.

In scenario 1, great, Kyurem accomplished something, in scenario 2, Kartana can't immediately hurt Kyurem, which basically means Kyurem can just go for free damage and then switch to the Kart check.

Enough ranting, let's go ahead and add those leftovers. Now we have our pokemon. We're going with the recommended physical sweep build + leftovers to make use of bulk. Let's go right into the battles. I'll share my results with minor changes to Kyurem as I go.
The results:
Battle 1: Swapped Kyurem up against a burned Mamoswine dragon danced twice. They swapped in Tapu Lele and did 90% with one "unbuffed" psychic. Doesn't seem like I'll be PP stalling anytime soon but I didn't need to. I got lucky with Icicle Spear and took out Tapu Lele and swept his team with just Kyurem. Kyurem v Toxapex, Mamoswine, Tapu Lele, Corviknight.
Status: Swept
Battle 2: Kyurem (with 2 dance stacks) took out two pokemon before getting one shot by a Scarfed Barraskewda with Close Combat.
Status: Lost, but Kyurem was still useful.
Battle 3: Kyurem got Body Pressed.
Status: Fodder.
Battle 4: Kyurem v Clefable won. Kyurem lost to Mimikyu Shadow Sneak priority.
Battle 5: Revenge killed Volcarona. Kyurem lost to Ferrothorn Gyro Ball after dealing 20% with Icicle Spear from +1 Dragon Dance.

Not only do we not have replays to see the context behind these games, but a lot of them seem don't seem to show much?
G1:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem in Psychic Terrain: 313-369 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Saying it's "Unbuffed" is slightly deceiving here, it's a specs psychic under psychic terrain, obviously it's going to do a lot, doesn't mean Kyurem can be an effective pp staller. But it also shows that you did sweep with Kyurem.

G2:
Scarf Barraskewda? You mightve been playing against rain, which activates Barraskewda's swift swim, even then it killed two mons and you decided to let Kyurem die, this doesn't show Kyurem being bad.

G3:
... ok? Kyurem died to a fighting move, this would definitely need context to show Kyurem not being up to par.

G4:
Mimikyu has a 0.462% usage rate, meaning that you would basically see it once every 200 games. While the Mimikyu matchup doesn't seem especially important, your Kyurem here was able to kill a Clefable, which usually has the type advantage on it. You leaving it in on a pokemon that basically always runs priority is still on you.

G5:
Why would you keep a Kyurem in on a Ferro without a Sub, this one definitely seems on you.

All of your examples don't show ways that Kyurem isn't broken, they show Kyurem killing things, and then dying to stuff it obviously dies to. Preserving your Kyurem obviously would give your Kyurem extra setup opportunities.

My overview because it's late:
Kyurem has plenty of counters and while its stats are versatile, his moveset is not. His ability does not make up for his weaknesses and his typing makes him weak to really strong pokemon already. He is neat but weaker than Kartana, Volcarona, and many other sweepers that have much more going for them. Kyurem is carried by his stats which keeps him from being bad, so he's "decent" but not uber worthy.

P.S. Yeah two focus blasts from Kyurem against Scizor would be pretty strong. One fiery dance from Volcarona is pretty strong too. Scizor is good to get a good Sword Dance in before potentially sweeping with Bullet Punch which Kyurem also loses in 2 shots to Main post.

Kyurem does not have plenty of counters, the most consistent one being Scizor and Blissey both fold to Specs Focus Blast, the only "true" Kyurem counter would probably be like... Shedinja.
Bulkarona is also a viable option, but can be afraid of Specs variants with Draco Meteor.

The last remark on the fact that Volcarona deals with Scizor better than Kyurem is... irrelevant, blanket counters to ice types are steels, and Scizor is the only viable one that isn't weak to Ice moves + Earth Power or Focus Blast, and even then it still gets 2 shot by Focus Blast.

 

[Smashburn]

I'm doing some testing to give my full analysis & feedback regarding Kyurem in the current meta. I typically don't add any form of legendary pokemon to teams I commonly use because I like to bring out the best in pokemon that don't typically get spotlight and with that said, here are my base opinions without testing the pokemon so far...

That is a ridiculous and arbitrary statement. There is a reason we have tiers y'know.

- Dealing with Kyurem:
Kyurem is never an issue to deal with because its typing is *weak*. I don't understand why people believe his typing to be versatile or good by any means. Dragon is already good against dragon so it doesn't make him a better match up against dragon types. It doesn't make Kyurem a better match up against fairy types, it barely makes him a better match up against other ice types. He is stronger against grass but grass is already at a disadvantage against dragon. He is stronger against flying. He is stronger against ground. You get the point.

However, these minor advantages don't make up for the fact he becomes weak to fighting, neutral to fire, neutral to ice (which isn't a disadvantage but a "benefit of being an ice type"), weak to steel which was always a bad match up made worse, and rock which... yikes. Dealing with Kyurem is easy. You have two ways to build him which makes him versatile but due to the lack of resistances it really boils down to crossing your fingers that they make a few bad moves so you can set up to "sweep". I've had no issues dealing with Kyurem regardless of the team I've used recently because Icicle Spear on anything but Cloyster sucks. Let's be real: I'm going to swap into a steel type and you're going to lose a turn dealing with that fact because you don't have good moves to deal with it and that's exactly what I did.


Now I'll take a look at Kyurem for myself and I'll give my full step by step.
- Preparing my Kyurem:
I start off looking at abilities. Okay. Pressure. Pressure is awful. Anyone who says Pressure is a useful ability probably thinks Toxic on Salazzle is too OP. Next I begin looking into his moves. I see Dragon Dance so I see potential. I grab it and immediately prepare myself to make a physical sweeper. I use relatively slow pokemon normally so to me a base 95 speed with Dragon Dance is easily useable especially since his bulk gives an extra turn for set up on the right switch in. Pretty neat. Let's look at the physical moves. Rock Slide is good. Potential to flinch, decent coverage especially against threats like Volcarona, works good with Dragon Dance. Let's go with that. We want to have some good STAB moves so let's look at the options. Icicle... Spear... I guess? I see why people chose to use Icicle Spear... it's the only option they have. That's actually terrible it's not even worth it. Let's look at dragon moves. Dragon Claw is typically solid... I guess?

So there are no good moves to make use of with Dragon Dance. Okay. I'll be honest, I'd rather make it a specially bulky sweeper with Breaking Swipe and Dragon Dance to give Kyurem some actual use because Icicle Spear and Dragon Claw will do nothing. That's more of a gimmicky and less of a meta build though so I'll just move on to re-considering making him a physical attacker. So I look at the special moves and they're very solid. Draco Meteor is great, he has a lot of solid special moves. The issue is he doesn't have a way to buff them so he can't sweep with special solo. Going for both physical and special is an option but it's a mediocre option since there are no physical moves that can really abuse it. Unfortunately he has no priority moves either...

To decide on the version of Kyurem we want to use, we'll use one recommended from the starting post. They have... Freeze Dry / Earth Power / Roost or Dragon Dance / Icicle Spear / Substitute... okay. Let's attempt the physical sweeper version.

Now for the items. One recommendation is the Heavy-Duty boots but an item slot to prevent potential hazards for just one pokemon is a waste. Another recommendation is leftovers. Leftovers are solid because of the bulk... but did I just hear "make use of pressure" and "stalling"? Roost is great, truly, and Kyurem's HP is magnificent but are we forgetting that other sweepers exist? Kartana pops up to Kyurem as a two free buffs and one less pokemon for the opponent. Saying that makes Pressure a viable ability is like saying you want to see Blissey with Pressure because it can use Hard Boiled and maybe PP stall Sucker Punch.

You could have just said "Kyurem is bad," walked out of the room without saying anything, and it would have done the exact same thing as this post.

Ruft and M24 best summarized my thoughts while typing, so my reply will be rather short.

In the first half of your "analysis" you fail to mention anything meaningful about Kyurem's qualities; being its coverage, set variety, and bulk. The only thing I can salvage from the first 4-5 paragraphs is that you think SubDD is bad without any educated reason as to why, which is false. Additionally, this only covers one set, while Kyurem has an astounding 5 (SubRoost, SubDD, NMI, Specs, Scarf).

Both notions about Pressure and Icicle Spear are uneducated. Kyurem's use of Pressure alongside Subsitute and its amazing bulk make variants of Kyurem that use these qualities capable of stalling out would-be counters to it otherwise, part of its repertoire of tools that make it difficult to deal with. Theory-monning Blissey and a seemingly random move doesn't help either. By not exploring other options of Kyurem which you obviously were given the opportunity to, you not only weakened your argument discrediting it, but also gave it no backbone.

Enough ranting, let's go ahead and add those leftovers. Now we have our pokemon. We're going with the recommended physical sweep build + leftovers to make use of bulk. Let's go right into the battles. I'll share my results with minor changes to Kyurem as I go.
The results:
Battle 1: Swapped Kyurem up against a burned Mamoswine dragon danced twice. They swapped in Tapu Lele and did 90% with one "unbuffed" psychic. Doesn't seem like I'll be PP stalling anytime soon but I didn't need to. I got lucky with Icicle Spear and took out Tapu Lele and swept his team with just Kyurem. Kyurem v Toxapex, Mamoswine, Tapu Lele, Corviknight.
Status: Swept
Battle 2: Kyurem (with 2 dance stacks) took out two pokemon before getting one shot by a Scarfed Barraskewda with Close Combat.
Status: Lost, but Kyurem was still useful.
Battle 3: Kyurem got Body Pressed.
Status: Fodder.
Battle 4: Kyurem v Clefable won. Kyurem lost to Mimikyu Shadow Sneak priority.
Battle 5: Revenge killed Volcarona. Kyurem lost to Ferrothorn Gyro Ball after dealing 20% with Icicle Spear from +1 Dragon Dance.

Results of your battles do not help without full gameplay as they are isolated situations that do not speak to anything about Kyurem. You don't even give any insight or rundown of the games.

My overview because it's late:
Kyurem has plenty of counters and while its stats are versatile, his moveset is not. His ability does not make up for his weaknesses and his typing makes him weak to really strong pokemon already. He is neat but weaker than Kartana, Volcarona, and many other sweepers that have much more going for them. Kyurem is carried by his stats which keeps him from being bad, so he's "decent" but not uber worthy.

P.S. Yeah two focus blasts from Kyurem against Scizor would be pretty strong. One fiery dance from Volcarona is pretty strong too. Scizor is good to get a good Sword Dance in before potentially sweeping with Bullet Punch which Kyurem also loses in 2 shots to Main post.

Addressing these in order:

1. As has been shown, Kyurem has no universal counters. The closest viable things available are Scizor and Blissey which are still shaky.

2. These statements tie back to not considering Kyurem's set variety. Counter-wise SubDD of course is weaker against Kartana and Volcarona, but what about other sets? Theses two are not consistent to Kyurem are a whole. Additionaly, they do NOT outclass it by any means.

3. This is just discussing blanket checks and basic interactions that shouldn't be an afterthought for the post-send.

 

[qwertyman888]

Now I'll take a look at Kyurem for myself and I'll give my full step by step.
- Preparing my Kyurem:
I start off looking at abilities. Okay. Pressure. Pressure is awful. Anyone who says Pressure is a useful ability probably thinks Toxic on Salazzle is too OP. Next I begin looking into his moves. I see Dragon Dance so I see potential. I grab it and immediately prepare myself to make a physical sweeper. I use relatively slow pokemon normally so to me a base 95 speed with Dragon Dance is easily useable especially since his bulk gives an extra turn for set up on the right switch in. Pretty neat. Let's look at the physical moves. Rock Slide is good. Potential to flinch, decent coverage especially against threats like Volcarona, works good with Dragon Dance. Let's go with that. We want to have some good STAB moves so let's look at the options. Icicle... Spear... I guess? I see why people chose to use Icicle Spear... it's the only option they have. That's actually terrible it's not even worth it.

So there are no good moves to make use of with Dragon Dance.

Another recommendation is leftovers. Leftovers are solid because of the bulk... but did I just hear "make use of pressure" and "stalling"? Roost is great, truly, and Kyurem's HP is magnificent but are we forgetting that other sweepers exist? Kartana pops up to Kyurem as a two free buffs and one less pokemon for the opponent. Saying that makes Pressure a viable ability is like saying you want to see Blissey with Pressure because it can use Hard Boiled and maybe PP stall Sucker Punch.


My overview because it's late:
Kyurem has plenty of counters and while its stats are versatile, his moveset is not. His ability does not make up for his weaknesses and his typing makes him weak to really strong pokemon already. He is neat but weaker than Kartana, Volcarona, and many other sweepers that have much more going for them. Kyurem is carried by his stats which keeps him from being bad, so he's "decent" but not uber worthy.

Already been discussed, adeptly, by the posts above me, but I want to reinforce this by giving you my own clear-cut thoughts on why Kyurem is good and try my best not to laugh at ”Choice Scarf Barraskewda”.

1. Pressure is a godsend on Kyurem. Its bulk allows it to viably PP stall super-effective hits until its “answers” are unable to damage it anymore.

Pressure is VERY, V E R Y good. god, that Salazzle analogy is so fucking bad and I would call it a specific fallacy if I knew the term for it

oh my fucking god rereading that post the Blissey analogy dude im fucking crying… hard boiled……..

cannot check Bulky SubDD. This is a fact. Sure, it pressures it, and makes it use a ton of its Roosts and Subs, but once it’s run out of Bullet Punches it’s over and Kyurem gets to set up once and for all. Other, and common, Pressure teammates like Corviknight can expedite the process of stalling out BP’s quite well, even though Kyu can do it itself.

can be stalled by both Sub variants. The Special variant can not only freeze-fish but also just click over and over. Clefable ends up with no Moonblasts, likely a few Special Defense drops from Earth Power when Kyurem wants to preserve its own PP (which makes it switch the fuck out, so if this is your Kyurem check you’re sacking something. Clefable is also setup fodder for DD kyurem. Icicle Spear, which you stated was bad multiple times, is PERFECT for Kyurem in long games vs something like Unaware Clefable. It can get to +6 while eating all of Clef’s moonblasts and then start attacking instead of setting up, forcing Clef to recover repeatedly while being literally unable to damage Kyurem anymore. The problem for Clef is compounded if its Spdef in preparation for every other Kyurem set and then it faces physical.

Icicle Spear’s 48 PP fits Kyurem perfectly and it’s fairly strong. If Kyurem got, say, Icicle Crash this gen, people would STILL USE SPEAR on sets off HO because it fits the Bulky SubDD Kyurem playstyle. Since Kyurem’s goal is to set up as much as physically possible before sweeping while basically ignoring the “checks” to its other sets (THIS IS HUGE. RUNNING 2+ CHECKS TO BEAT ALL ITS SETS IS A SIGN OF RESTRICTIVENESS ON BUILDING), it’s less of “my +2 spear didn’t do enough :(((( “ and more of “my +6 spear outputs constant damage and their checks are out of attacks”. Kyurem is a long-game sweeper. You said Rock Slide and Dragon Claw would be good, and I can see that… on a set that runs 252 Atk 252 Speed and attempts to get maybe two Dragon Dances off before cleaning. MAYBE. On exclusively Hyper Offense. You went about “testing” Kyurem all wrong— you didn’t use its stalling power to get a safe sweep like you’re supposed to, because uhh “pressure bad”. You did, presumably, use the bulky set, but I can guess you slapped it on some offense instead of its real place on Balance or Semi-Stall.

TLDR saying pressure is bad is evidence that you’re a 1000s player inexperienced with the Kyurem meta. Scratch that, not even the Kyurem meta. Suicune has been PP stalling for years and Corviknight’s Pressure is HUGE for Stall playstyles and has been for the whole gen.

2. Kyurem isn’t “outclassed” by other mons like Volcarona, Kartana, etc.

As tons of people have said before me, Kyu’s power combined with its variety makes it beat a lot of its checks. On top of this, its variety means you usually have to run more than one check so you don’t get steamrolled. This is a bad influence on building, akin to Spectrier’s, I daresay. While Volcarona and Kartana have common and viable checks and are usually covered by only one (Heatran doesn’t have to be run in conjunction with a Blissey to beat Volc, you don’t need to run both Corv and Zapdos to check Kartana, both mons share a check in Landorus-T.) Kyurem needs two; Melmetal+Blissey is a good core to cover a multitude of sets, but can STILL LOSE as many have pointed out with evidence.

That’s all I have to say, and a lot of it has already been said. (Smashburn , M24 , Ruft , Mimikyu Stardust)

I'm doing some testing to give my full analysis & feedback regarding Kyurem in the current meta. I typically don't add any form of legendary pokemon to teams I commonly use because I like to bring out the best in pokemon that don't typically get spotlight and with that said, here are my base opinions without testing the pokemon so far...

lol

 

[Xufactor]

I believe Temperance_PS best pointed out that you're playing with fire attempting to have Blissey deal with something it just can't. Secondly, I think it has been made extremely obvious that this claim is false and Blissey absolutely needs SpD EVs to even "reliably" stop Focus Blast, with the roll for taking 2 Focus Blasts from Kyurem being highly unfavorable.

BT89 also gave some insight to your "examples." Tapu Lele and Kartana have consistent linear roles and limited variety in sets that make them much easier to account for when teambuilding, whereas Kyurem has a variety of sets which require different answers that demand more from teambuilding. Role compression such as SpD Scizor and SpD Blissey can makes teams unreliable at best when attempting to deal with Kyurem.

Additionally, Kyurem quite literally fits on everything, whereas Tapu Lele and Kartana are more limited. You wouldn't happen to have seen Tapu Lele or Kartana Semi-Stall recently, have you?

Blissey reliably counters specs Kyurem, no? The set I would recommend is 120 HP / 252 def / 136+ spD. The set on Smogon maximizes def with bold, but then again, it didn’t put glare on Serperiors main set in XY for years.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 136+ SpD Blissey: 272-322 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I use this Blissey set in general, not just for Kyurem, mainly because it still takes massive damage from some specs and nasty plot attacks. If you start with 252 HP / 0 SpD, you should transfer evs from HP to SpD because it’s HP is more than double it’s SpD. (Unless you are EVing for specific physical attacks which I don’t think is the case). This is why Wailord invests in both its defenses and none in HP, since it’s hp is so high.

Compared to 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD, 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SpD Blissey takes special hits 5.63% better and physical hits 4.62% worse. This is better IMO because Blissey is mainly a special wall and some metagame reasons like the ones I mentioned above. The nature is another 10% change.

0 Atk Kyurem Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 201-243 (29.5 - 35.6%) -- approx. 16.2% chance to 3HKO

So Blissey is a good initial switchin to DD in case it’s special?

 

[qwertyman888]

So Blissey is a good initial switchin to DD in case it’s special?

If you want to scout it, yeah, sure. You just need to have another counter for DD bc Kyurem is that restricting. I might try that Blissey set though, it’s not like you‘re trying to check anything physical with it anyway.

 

[Nish the Great]

Blissey reliably counters specs Kyurem, no? The set I would recommend is 120 HP / 252 def / 136+ spD. The set on Smogon maximizes def with bold, but then again, it didn’t put glare on Serperiors main set in XY for years.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 136+ SpD Blissey: 272-322 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I use this Blissey set in general, not just for Kyurem, mainly because it still takes massive damage from some specs and nasty plot attacks. If you start with 252 HP / 0 SpD, you should transfer evs from HP to SpD because it’s HP is more than double it’s SpD. (Unless you are EVing for specific physical attacks which I don’t think is the case). This is why Wailord invests in both its defenses and none in HP, since it’s hp is so high.

Compared to 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD, 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SpD Blissey takes special hits 5.63% better and physical hits 4.62% worse. This is better IMO because Blissey is mainly a special wall and some metagame reasons like the ones I mentioned above. The nature is another 10% change.

0 Atk Kyurem Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 201-243 (29.5 - 35.6%) -- approx. 16.2% chance to 3HKO

So Blissey is a good initial switchin to DD in case it’s special?

They will get a free sub, and if they subbed as you switched in they get free sub+ddance

 

[Smashburn]

Blissey reliably counters specs Kyurem, no? The set I would recommend is 120 HP / 252 def / 136+ spD. The set on Smogon maximizes def with bold, but then again, it didn’t put glare on Serperiors main set in XY for years.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 136+ SpD Blissey: 272-322 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I use this Blissey set in general, not just for Kyurem, mainly because it still takes massive damage from some specs and nasty plot attacks. If you start with 252 HP / 0 SpD, you should transfer evs from HP to SpD because it’s HP is more than double it’s SpD. (Unless you are EVing for specific physical attacks which I don’t think is the case). This is why Wailord invests in both its defenses and none in HP, since it’s hp is so high.

Compared to 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD, 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SpD Blissey takes special hits 5.63% better and physical hits 4.62% worse. This is better IMO because Blissey is mainly a special wall and some metagame reasons like the ones I mentioned above. The nature is another 10% change.

0 Atk Kyurem Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 201-243 (29.5 - 35.6%) -- approx. 16.2% chance to 3HKO

So Blissey is a good initial switchin to DD in case it’s special?

Blissey does NOT deal with Focus Blast without Special Defense EVs. At least, not reliably. More than half of the time, if you keep Blissey in to Soft-Boiled, it falls, and -- uh oh! Now you're dealing with a Choice Specs Kyurem without your Ice Beam switchin because Blissey tried to deal with something it couldn't.

A similar concept is applied when Blissey's tradeoff's cause it to be more passive. When you are more SpD heavy, you are liable to being chipped out at the Phys Def exchange you mentioned. U-Turn chip is especially Dangerous, as the HP threshold for a favorable roll against Specs Kyurem's Focus blast comes at only 88%, where U-Turn chip on average brings Blissey below this threshold.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 136+ SpD Blissey: 272-322 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 136+ SpD Blissey: 272-322 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (95% is the threshold for guaranteed 3HKO)

0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 90-106 (13.2 - 15.5%) -- possible 6HKO (87% minimum remaining)
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 89-105 (13 - 15.4%) -- possible 6HKO (87% minimum remaining)
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 105-124 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 5HKO (85% minimum remaining)
0- Atk Tapu Koko U-turn vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 102-120 (14.9 - 17.6%) -- possible 5HKO (Roughly 85% minimum remaining)

This gradually brings Blissey to a point where it can no longer reliably "counter" Kyurem throughout a match. Additionally, your passiveness in attempting to remain at least 88% HP for the last favorable roll is difficult to maintain. Between various other threats which share Blissey as a counter/check, Blissey is made to be less effective in the long run against Kyurem and partners that bolster its offensive pressure.

To reiterate the words of Temperance_PS:

So sure, this spread gives you substantially more breathing room over Max Def or lower SpD sets in the immediate, but substantially less in the long run when it comes to Pokemon like Dragaput, Corviknight, Tornadus-Therian, and the occasional Tapu Koko clicking U-Turn on Blissey.

This doesn't mention other sets such as SubPressure variants, Scarf, or NMI as their implications on this set are much more obvious (imo).

 

[Xufactor]

A similar concept is applied when Blissey's tradeoff's cause it to be more passive. When you are more SpD heavy, you are liable to being chipped out at the Phys Def exchange you mentioned. U-Turn chip is especially Dangerous, as the HP threshold for a favorable roll against Specs Kyurem's Focus blast comes at only 88%, where U-Turn chip on average brings Blissey below this threshold.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 136+ SpD Blissey: 272-322 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 120 HP / 136+ SpD Blissey: 272-322 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (95% is the threshold for guaranteed 3HKO)

0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 90-106 (13.2 - 15.5%) -- possible 6HKO (87% minimum remaining)
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 89-105 (13 - 15.4%) -- possible 6HKO (87% minimum remaining)
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 105-124 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 5HKO (85% minimum remaining)
0- Atk Tapu Koko U-turn vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 102-120 (14.9 - 17.6%) -- possible 5HKO (Roughly 85% minimum remaining)

This gradually brings Blissey to a point where it can no longer reliably "counter" Kyurem throughout a match. Additionally, your passiveness in attempting to remain at least 88% HP for the last favorable roll is difficult to maintain. Between various other threats which share Blissey as a counter/check, gradually Blissey is made to be less effective in the long run against Kyurem and partners that bolster its offensive pressure.

To reiterate the words of Temperance_PS:

So sure, this spread gives you substantially more breathing room over Max Def or lower SpD sets in the immediate, but substantially less in the long run when it comes to Pokemon like Dragaput, Corviknight, Tornadus-Therian, and the occasional Tapu Koko clicking U-Turn on Blissey.

This doesn't mention other sets such as SubPressure variants, Scarf, or NMI as their implications on this set are much more obvious (imo).

Temperance_PS was referring to a calc where he did not use 252 def evs.

I agree that Calm Blissey is not a guaranteed counter to specs Kyurem with u-turn support, but spD Blissey has a better shot against it, and is likely better in general. Dragapult is the main offender with u-turn. Koko and corvi tend to get checked by other mons, and Blissey is a passable switchin to torn because it can get knocked off or taunted.

 

[Smashburn]

Temperance_PS was referring to a calc where he did not use 252 def evs.

I agree that Calm Blissey is not a guaranteed counter to Kyurem with u-turn support, but spD Blissey has a better shot against it, and is likely better in general. Dragapult is the main offender with u-turn. Koko and corvi tend to get checked by other mons, and Blissey is a passable switchin to torn because it can get knocked off or taunted.

I am aware that Temperance had referred to an incorrect calc beforehand, to my knowledge he corrected it however and I am only using the same concept. I also agree that SpD Blissey has a better shot against it, given that it has so much more breathing room. Dragapult is of course an issue, where Koko and Corv are checked by other mons. I agree that Tornadus is more of a passable switch, but the issue there is that teams would look to use this form of Blissey as a check-all answer for things they are weak to including Torn aside from bulkier builds.

Although, I disagree that it is better in general given its flaws. It seems clear that this set is specifically dedicated to dealing with Kyurem, and if it is banned it would lose almost all of its value.

My point in bringing this up is similar to Temperance's, that even with this Blissey is not a truly reliable counter to Kyurem. Meaning that it is not a reason to be keeping Kyurem around.

 

[Master Radomus]

Lots of posts to reply to but I'll just post one response for all:
a) I assumed in the motion of the battle that it was a scarf or band because they used the same move and swapped out when they had a clear advantage typing wise ie using Close Combat, me swapping to Volcarona, them swapping out to reset their locked move. Swift Swim I'm sure was a factor in speed, but the individual I battled was either very... interesting about their decisions or they were scarfed/banded. I assumed the latter.

b) The replay showing how "good" Kyurem is, didn't show anything but the bad decisions made by the opponent. The opponent went from Ferrothorn to Slowbro (likely because his Ferrothorn didn't run Gyro I guess? Player choice :shrug:). The dancing continued as his opponent just tried swapping into Landorus to... attempt to lower his attack... then swapped into Weavile after? Heatran was putting in work, he lost because he stopped using Flash Cannon and allowed for more set up... though I can't say that's exactly true because the Heatran didn't even seem like it was built for the task he was trying for to begin with. Magma Storm missed giving another turn, he didn't have taunt which is shocking since I get taunted by every Heatran ever, and he seemed like he just ran out of options because Substitute killed his entire "stalling strategy". His opponent had no sweepers and frankly just seemed incapable of dealing with any other meta team just as much as Kyurem.

c) I'll be sure to save replays for next time but it was 5am and I was too tired to think about smart people stuff.

d) PP stall isn't a valid tactic (on Kyurem). Let me give actual reasoning as to why since a lot of people seem devoted to how Pressure on Kyurem is too much to deal with. The reason why PP stalling is not a valid tactic is because it's *too slow*. PP stalling is *only viable* against other stallers and hardly that. Kyurem itself is just a pokemon that has a lot of potential sweeping and avoiding pokemon that can stop it in its tracks. I wasn't showing that Kyurem was bad but that he is just *another pokemon that belongs in OU* because he doesn't do anything remarkable enough for uber. If your goal is to PP stall with Kyurem you'll have to pretend other sweepers don't exist because Kyurem doesn't have the power moves to be able to deal with other sweepers if yours is built up to Dragon Dance sweep. At the point you're successfully PP stalling and your opponent is worried about it, you've already won. If your Kyurem is attempting to sub stall with no set up and rely on roost then your team is probably just as useless against Espeon. Can't gimp Espeon's Magic Bounce and Espeon's SpA is the same as Kyurem's so if you're losing to a SpA Kyurem stall then you should likely consider adding pokemon to your team that can do something.

e) Now to explain why Heavy-Duty boots isn't good for Kyurem: if your team loses to rocks you need a way to get rid of them anyways. If your goal with Kyurem is to keep him out then Heavy-Duty boots save you from potential that should've already been removed. Sure, it saves Kyurem 25% which is good and I'm not saying Heavy-Duty boots are bad in general as swapping is crucial, it has a lot of great application, but being worried about rocks against Kyurem seems like "noob bait" to me, you shouldn't have hazards when swapping into your sweeper to begin with and Heavy-Duty boots seem like a lazy way to act like rocks don't exist. Okay, I'll compromise that Heavy-Duty boots are decent just because he can't benefit from a lot of good items anyways but it's far from scary or meta breaking.

f) Correct. Icicle Spear is a good move over a long-game with a set up Kyurem that is given a lot of turns to play because you average out the Icicle Spears to have a potentially higher damage output... over the course of a few turns the average Icicle Spear damage is *dun da duh dun* an average move. I'll give a little more credit, as it is good against important things like Sub and Sash but if Icicle Spear is what you're worried about being a meta contester for Uber then you need to reconsider your team if you know Kyurem exists in the meta and *decide not to deal with it*. Volcarona's sweep potential is also amazing but it's countered hard by certain pokemon (now that HP is gone :c) and these are pokemon that people bring understanding the meta and what pokemon counter what. It's literally the player's fault for deciding to ignore Kyurem's capabilities and coming under prepared because it has a lot of weaknesses.

g) Choice Specs seem like a decent option as other people have mentioned because it's a fast strategy that allows Kyurem to go in, pull off a strong move, and dip. The same can be said about any pokemon though so I hope we're not talking about him being considered for uber when we talk about Choice Specs because many other pokemon can do that same job. I'm still having difficulty seeing why people believe Focus Blast is amazing. "Perfect 3 hit KO on my spec'd Kyurem". Okay. Hope you land all 3 considering you nearly have a 1/3rd chance to miss. I hope that my opponent plays into it. I hope that my opponent doesn't swap. I hope that my opponent stands perfectly still and takes it.

h) Clefable successfully got stalled by Kyurem because Clefable is a one trick pony. Oh no. Retrospect Stored Power probably would've done more if you had enough turns to set up like that. but only 16 pp11!1 k.

i) Later on I'll make a few videos and post them to show battles in more detail. Maybe you guys can challenge me with your amazing Kyurem build and we can further discuss in detail through the course of a battle. To note, I'm definitely not saying Kyurem is a bad pokemon as you guys seem to believe. I mentioned he put in a lot of work earlier but as an uber the only thing that supports an uber status would be his base stats and even then, not crazy about it. Low speed, "average atk and spa" for a good pokemon, oh but that THICK HP :triumph:.

 

[qwertyman888]

Lots of posts to reply to but I'll just post one response for all:
a) I assumed in the motion of the battle that it was a scarf or band because they used the same move and swapped out when they had a clear advantage typing wise ie using Close Combat, me swapping to Volcarona, them swapping out to reset their locked move. Swift Swim I'm sure was a factor in speed, but the individual I battled was either very... interesting about their decisions or they were scarfed/banded. I assumed the latter.

b) The replay showing how "good" Kyurem is, didn't show anything but the bad decisions made by the opponent. The opponent went from Ferrothorn to Slowbro (likely because his Ferrothorn didn't run Gyro I guess? Player choice :shrug:). The dancing continued as his opponent just tried swapping into Landorus to... attempt to lower his attack... then swapped into Weavile after? Heatran was putting in work, he lost because he stopped using Flash Cannon and allowed for more set up... though I can't say that's exactly true because the Heatran didn't even seem like it was built for the task he was trying for to begin with. Magma Storm missed giving another turn, he didn't have taunt which is shocking since I get taunted by every Heatran ever, and he seemed like he just ran out of options because Substitute killed his entire "stalling strategy". His opponent had no sweepers and frankly just seemed incapable of dealing with any other meta team just as much as Kyurem.

c) I'll be sure to save replays for next time but it was 5am and I was too tired to think about smart people stuff.

d) PP stall isn't a valid tactic (on Kyurem). Let me give actual reasoning as to why since a lot of people seem devoted to how Pressure on Kyurem is too much to deal with. The reason why PP stalling is not a valid tactic is because it's *too slow*. PP stalling is *only viable* against other stallers and hardly that. Kyurem itself is just a pokemon that has a lot of potential sweeping and avoiding pokemon that can stop it in its tracks. I wasn't showing that Kyurem was bad but that he is just *another pokemon that belongs in OU* because he doesn't do anything remarkable enough for uber. If your goal is to PP stall with Kyurem you'll have to pretend other sweepers don't exist because Kyurem doesn't have the power moves to be able to deal with other sweepers if yours is built up to Dragon Dance sweep. At the point you're successfully PP stalling and your opponent is worried about it, you've already won. If your Kyurem is attempting to sub stall with no set up and rely on roost then your team is probably just as useless against Espeon. Can't gimp Espeon's Magic Bounce and Espeon's SpA is the same as Kyurem's so if you're losing to a SpA Kyurem stall then you should likely consider adding pokemon to your team that can do something.

e) Now to explain why Heavy-Duty boots isn't good for Kyurem: if your team loses to rocks you need a way to get rid of them anyways. If your goal with Kyurem is to keep him out then Heavy-Duty boots save you from potential that should've already been removed. Sure, it saves Kyurem 25% which is good and I'm not saying Heavy-Duty boots are bad in general as swapping is crucial, it has a lot of great application, but being worried about rocks against Kyurem seems like "noob bait" to me, you shouldn't have hazards when swapping into your sweeper to begin with and Heavy-Duty boots seem like a lazy way to act like rocks don't exist. Okay, I'll compromise that Heavy-Duty boots are decent just because he can't benefit from a lot of good items anyways but it's far from scary or meta breaking.

f) Correct. Icicle Spear is a good move over a long-game with a set up Kyurem that is given a lot of turns to play because you average out the Icicle Spears to have a potentially higher damage output... over the course of a few turns the average Icicle Spear damage is *dun da duh dun* an average move. I'll give a little more credit, as it is good against important things like Sub and Sash but if Icicle Spear is what you're worried about being a meta contester for Uber then you need to reconsider your team if you know Kyurem exists in the meta and *decide not to deal with it*. Volcarona's sweep potential is also amazing but it's countered hard by certain pokemon (now that HP is gone :c) and these are pokemon that people bring understanding the meta and what pokemon counter what. It's literally the player's fault for deciding to ignore Kyurem's capabilities and coming under prepared because it has a lot of weaknesses.

g) Choice Specs seem like a decent option as other people have mentioned because it's a fast strategy that allows Kyurem to go in, pull off a strong move, and dip. The same can be said about any pokemon though so I hope we're not talking about him being considered for uber when we talk about Choice Specs because many other pokemon can do that same job. I'm still having difficulty seeing why people believe Focus Blast is amazing. "Perfect 3 hit KO on my spec'd Kyurem". Okay. Hope you land all 3 considering you nearly have a 1/3rd chance to miss. I hope that my opponent plays into it. I hope that my opponent doesn't swap. I hope that my opponent stands perfectly still and takes it.

h) Clefable successfully got stalled by Kyurem because Clefable is a one trick pony. Oh no. Retrospect Stored Power probably would've done more if you had enough turns to set up like that. but only 16 pp11!1 k.

i) Later on I'll make a few videos and post them to show battles in more detail. Maybe you guys can challenge me with your amazing Kyurem build and we can further discuss in detail through the course of a battle. To note, I'm definitely not saying Kyurem is a bad pokemon as you guys seem to believe. I mentioned he put in a lot of work earlier but as an uber the only thing that supports an uber status would be his base stats and even then, not crazy about it. Low speed, "average atk and spa" for a good pokemon, oh but that THICK HP :triumph:.

I'll answer some of these.

B) both gyro and band ferro are fucking destroyed by subdd kyu. It easily pp stalls them.

D) ...what? Scizor isn't a "staller". Heatran isn't a "staller". Kyurem PP beats would-be checks easily with Pressure, by, yes, stalling out their moves. Then it gets its setup and wins. It's not "too slow" when it destroys even the popular double-steel cores. No matter how long it takes for it to PP stall to a winning scenario, the fact that it CAN is problematic when what it PP stallsis what's supposed to beat it. It doesn't belong in OU BECAUSE most of its checks aren't really checks in practice. Espeon is also ....... very unviable. And can't pp stall. And has no bulk. And has a bad defensive typing. fuck you mean by that??


F)
"I'll give a little more credit, as it is good against important things like Sub and Sash but if Icicle Spear is what you're worried about being a meta contester for Uber then you need to reconsider your team..."

Spear's used for the PP. It's not what makes or breaks Kyurem, it's just an aspect. It's not the factor that hinges on people's ban votes...

"...if you know Kyurem exists in the meta and *decide not to deal with it*."

THAT'S THE THING. Don't suggest everyone's saying Kyurem is broken because they don't run checks. THEY DO. Sometimes multiple. And often, Kyurem pulls through anyway. Many argue it's restrictive on building because you have to run multiple checks for all its sets. I don't understand how you can unironically say the entire proban side "just doesn't prep for it, it has so many weaknesses, lol"

G) Focus Blast is just a move it has that it can pull out to scare Scizor and Blissey. It doesn't make or break the mon... Kyurem is a strong breaker and that's just coverage. No one's saying Focus Blast is obscene push-it-over-the-edge. Very strawman.

H) Clef is very versatile. It just runs Moonblast on like 95 percent of sets, and is SUPPOSED to be a setup check with Unaware, and still gets wrecked by Kyurem. Spdef Clef is a check to NMI Kyurem, until it switches in and the Kyurem starts its Dragon Dance PP stall.

I) I dare you to fight any tour player with any Kyurem set. You'll see its full potential, I'm sure.

Oh yeah, and 130/130 attacking stats is average now?

I don't know what the fuck kind of team you're running if you think Kyu isn't a massive strain on the meta right now. Is it like, mono Kyurem checks? Pex/Spdef-Clef/Scizor/AV Melm/Bulky Volcarona/Blissey? I doubt it, though; you seem like you dislike bulky playstyles. Dunno why, just get that vibe.

or maybe, just maybe, you're not really that experienced (especially considering that bit about not using legendaries THERE's A TIERING SYSTEM FOR A REASON), and are taking a stance that's not only way out of your depth, and riddled with logical fallacy, while trying to sound knowledgeable?

 

[Down$hift]

Okay so that was a very long mansplaining session by Master Radomus, but let me break a few things down:

The pro-ban arguments:
- There is literally no pokemon that beats every one of its sets except for shedinja, and that can be pp stalled depending on the set (most shedinja lose 1v1 iirc).
- Kyurem's checks can be extremely superficial, and it's a major hassle in terms of teambuilding to make sure you autolose to one of Kyurem's numerous sets.
- Many of Kyurem's non-specs checks can get cheesed past by a well-timed freeze on any of its 32 freeze drys.

The anti-ban arguments:
- Checks aren't few and far between. Most teams wont autolose to the more common sets (specs and subroost).
- Specs Kyurem can beat every one of its checks IN THEORY, but in practice its very prediction reliant with its choice specs set and often misses its focus basts vs Scizor and Blissey. And whenever it wants to switch back in to try and pose a threat, it takes a chunk from rocks, so predicting incorrectly can be costly.
- Other sets other than specs are much less immediately threatening, and their counterplay is much more common in the OU tier. Subroost is dealt with rather well by scizor, teleport blissey + dragapult, buzzwole (unless its a never-melt ice variant), etc, while dragon dance variants dont take very kindly to pokemon like Melmetal, haze Toxapex, Volcarona, basically ice resists that can do something about kyurem setting up.

Your argument:
- Kyurem's typing is bad and has few resistances (last I checked Kyurem wasnt really using its typing defensively but ok).
- Pressure is a bad ability (Pressure is actually amazing on subroost Kyurem for being able to 1v1 Blissey, Shedinja occasionally, Heatran, gyro ball Ferrothorn... the list goes on).
- It's physical moves don't do a lot of damage (well its no wonder dragon dance 3 attacks kyurem isnt on the VR!)
- It's too slow (I mean 95 speed isnt THAT bad... also this thing is supposed to be a wallbreaker, not a revenge killer. Speed really isn't an issue.)

In conclusion: both the pro and anti-ban sides have good arguments, your argument is flawed seemingly because of your lack of experience. Now Im not gonna go and say "bro ur bad at the game gtfo," but if you're gonna post essays on smogon forums at least make sure you know what you're talking about.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

d) PP stall isn't a valid tactic (on Kyurem). Let me give actual reasoning as to why since a lot of people seem devoted to how Pressure on Kyurem is too much to deal with. The reason why PP stalling is not a valid tactic is because it's *too slow*. PP stalling is *only viable* against other stallers and hardly that. Kyurem itself is just a pokemon that has a lot of potential sweeping and avoiding pokemon that can stop it in its tracks. I wasn't showing that Kyurem was bad but that he is just *another pokemon that belongs in OU* because he doesn't do anything remarkable enough for uber. If your goal is to PP stall with Kyurem you'll have to pretend other sweepers don't exist because Kyurem doesn't have the power moves to be able to deal with other sweepers if yours is built up to Dragon Dance sweep. At the point you're successfully PP stalling and your opponent is worried about it, you've already won. If your Kyurem is attempting to sub stall with no set up and rely on roost then your team is probably just as useless against Espeon. Can't gimp Espeon's Magic Bounce and Espeon's SpA is the same as Kyurem's so if you're losing to a SpA Kyurem stall then you should likely consider adding pokemon to your team that can do something.

The thing is sub kyurem can beat offensive pokemon with its coverage as pokemon that would abuse it cannot like zapdos-g, urshifu-r, garchomp, and kartana. Sub DD kyurem can beat defensive pokemon and sit on most of them like ferro, slowbro, clefable, and more like corviknight because it can customize its spreads so well that it gives so little shits about those pokemon. It has MANY DIFFERENT sets, that can all beat ALL OFF its counters.

e) Now to explain why Heavy-Duty boots isn't good for Kyurem: if your team loses to rocks you need a way to get rid of them anyways. If your goal with Kyurem is to keep him out then Heavy-Duty boots save you from potential that should've already been removed. Sure, it saves Kyurem 25% which is good and I'm not saying Heavy-Duty boots are bad in general as swapping is crucial, it has a lot of great application, but being worried about rocks against Kyurem seems like "noob bait" to me, you shouldn't have hazards when swapping into your sweeper to begin with and Heavy-Duty boots seem like a lazy way to act like rocks don't exist. Okay, I'll compromise that Heavy-Duty boots are decent just because he can't benefit from a lot of good items anyways but it's far from scary or meta breaking.

Lets see... sometimes you want to keep your own hazards and not have to lose 25% hp when you are forced to bring kyurem in, heavy duty boots allow kyurem to pivot in constantly on pokemon rather than losing 25% hp, it helps it stay healthy for when it wants to actually do shit. Sure he benefits from a lot of good items, these items are called choice scarf, choice specs, never melt ice, metrenome, and WOW you couldn't have guessed it! Heavy-Duty Boots!

f) Correct. Icicle Spear is a good move over a long-game with a set up Kyurem that is given a lot of turns to play because you average out the Icicle Spears to have a potentially higher damage output... over the course of a few turns the average Icicle Spear damage is *dun da duh dun* an average move. I'll give a little more credit, as it is good against important things like Sub and Sash but if Icicle Spear is what you're worried about being a meta contester for Uber then you need to reconsider your team if you know Kyurem exists in the meta and *decide not to deal with it*. Volcarona's sweep potential is also amazing but it's countered hard by certain pokemon (now that HP is gone :c) and these are pokemon that people bring understanding the meta and what pokemon counter what. It's literally the player's fault for deciding to ignore Kyurem's capabilities and coming under prepared because it has a lot of weaknesses.

I am unsure if you have kept up with the world cup and other tournaments but people bring 2-3 hard checks or would be counters to kyurem and it still manages to muscle through. Unlike volcarona it has counters and checks to all of its sets such as heatran, tyranitar, blissey, dragonite, victini, garchomp, urshifu-r. Unlike kyurem whose counters and checks depend on the set, melmetal can counter Sub DD, but cant counter special sub, or specs.

g) Choice Specs seem like a decent option as other people have mentioned because it's a fast strategy that allows Kyurem to go in, pull off a strong move, and dip. The same can be said about any pokemon though so I hope we're not talking about him being considered for uber when we talk about Choice Specs because many other pokemon can do that same job. I'm still having difficulty seeing why people believe Focus Blast is amazing. "Perfect 3 hit KO on my spec'd Kyurem". Okay. Hope you land all 3 considering you nearly have a 1/3rd chance to miss. I hope that my opponent plays into it. I hope that my opponent doesn't swap. I hope that my opponent stands perfectly still and takes it.

Many pokemon cannot replicate what kyurem can do that is the thing, tapu lele has bad defensive stats and its sets share common counters just like other specs breakers like dragapult, blace, and aegislash. Focus blast is a good midground move for kyurem sometimes as you can catch a heatran switching into sub kyurem or just being able to break through blissey with ease. The statement "It can miss, so therefore cannot be broken as it cannot hit all 3 right?" Its pretty wrong as you as the opponent are risking all this on a potential gamble, but what if it hits all 3? Oh no, then that means I am screwed.

h) Clefable successfully got stalled by Kyurem because Clefable is a one trick pony. Oh no. Retrospect Stored Power probably would've done more if you had enough turns to set up like that. but only 16 pp11!1 k.

Ok? Clefable is one of the would be counters to set up sweepers but it just gets pp stalled of its moves... now what? Clefable not only was not able to do its job but it is just set up fother now! And if this was your main counterplay vs set up sweepers then ur kinda fucked.


All in all... you should really have some more experience about the meta especially if you want to say these statements like "icicle spear is a bad move", "pressure is bad", "it has a bad typing"

 

[Master Radomus]

Last responses for today so I don't clutter the post:
To qwert: No, they aren't stallers... I'm not sure where you got the impression that I said Scizor was a staller when I mentioned it was a sweeper. I just wanted to clarify that. You must've swapped your Ferrothorn in as it was already subbed if you're losing that interaction but that comes down to simple prediction. Ferrothorn isn't a hard counter to Kyurem that you can just swap into, I was simply providing an example. Spear used for PP..? 'Kay. By the point you're worried enough that you need 48 PP to make you feel at ease, you're already losing the game. I also only mentioned Espeon as a comparison regarding weakness, I wasn't saying Espeon was suspect worthy as you seem to imply. I simply don't use legendary pokemon as a personal preference because I like to make the best of other pokemon but I'm not delusional I'm quite aware of the tier system and I'm more than fine with certain legendary pokemon in the OU, clearly. I know I wrote out a lot but reading in full typically prevents miscommunication. I would also like to ask about what you believe "checks Kyurem" because it seems like people believe that sending in another bulky pokemon against Kyurem is a good "check". I likely won't respond until tomorrow though to prevent spamming the post.

To down: Kyurem doesn't have *strong enough* kill potential which is the problem. Pokemon without potential to kill or prove to be immediate threats are nests for sweepers. Yes he isn't using his typing defensively. Shedinja is funny but terrible why do people think this pokemon is remotely good? Oh! It's a good switch in against... moves!... Yeah ok. You might have 32 Freeze Dries and on pen and paper but you're not using 32 Freeze Dries and at the point you are, your opponent probably already lost anyways. Yes, I agree, Gyro Ball does get shut down by Pressure which is that ability's best application. I hope you didn't decide to swap Ferrothorn into a subbed Kyurem. Don't worry, it has Heavy-Duty boots, it won't be subbing a 4th time. Again, Gyro Ferrothorn isn't a hard counter. I'm also not saying 95 speed is slow normally, but we're talking about meta. It's slow comparatively. Regardless its speed isn't what I'm arguing, as the argument of its speed and physical attack capabilities are carried and hinged on its ability to use Dragon Dance anyways. Good move. Not uber worthy. Good pokemon. Not uber worthy.

To Hydreigon: Yes. Kyurem is capable of countering many defensive pokemon. That is absolutely correct and probably why people want him banned. Kyurem counters defensive pokemon because his defensive capabilities are strong. Defensive pokemon do not pose an immediate threat to Kyurem and allow Kyurem to stack. In regards to earlier debates, people seem to believe Kyurem is hard countered by defensive pokemon when the exact opposite is true. As for defeating all of its counters... Certain builds can counter certain pokemon to cover for weaknesses. That is... how pokemon works. You sacrifice a greater impact for more coverage and sometimes just to play around counter-measures. I hope you can use deductive reasoning to determine if it's special or physical based when they send it out against your defensive pokemon or against your physical tank... Heavy-Duty boots. Sure. I won't argue it anymore. You can use it. It is about as good as any other item it can get. You're gambling as much as they are when they shoot off a focus blast. If you want to gamble all 3 that's literally your choice. It has practically a third of a chance to miss though so if people are saying whoa this pokemon has coverage and it's thicc and spec focus blast op then you probably should've asked for Reuniclus to be in uber too? Like yeah it's strong I'm not arguing that it isn't viable to a degree but if you think spec focus blast coverage is too strong for the meta you gotta be kidding. DD sure I'll argue that. Spec Focus Blast strong = uber? Relax. You used Clefable to counter Kyurem and didn't even have the set up version? I think we're missing what Kyurem is good against and bad against. Pressure isn't good enough to make Kyurem uber worthy. Its typing isn't good enough to make it uber worthy. Icicle Spear is bad on pokemon that aren't Cloyster. The only reason you use it is because it's the best you can do.

PS Yes I'm not big on bulky playstyles but I'm no stranger to them. Kyurem is a good counter against most bulky pokemon and that seems to be people's issues with it. A hard counter for Kyurem is a pokemon that can take advantage of its lack of power, not a pokemon that can take hits and do nothing back to Kyurem. I'll be providing more evidence for future posts.

 

[qwertyman888]

To qwert: No, they aren't stallers... I'm not sure where you got the impression that I said Scizor was a staller when I mentioned it was a sweeper. I just wanted to clarify that.

This is what you said:
"PP stalling is *only viable* against other stallers and hardly that."

When I said sciz and tran weren't stallers, I meant exactly that. They're not. Kyurem can viably PP stall non-"stallers", so this statement is flat-out wrong.

You must've swapped your Ferrothorn in as it was already subbed if you're losing that interaction but that comes down to simple prediction. Ferrothorn isn't a hard counter to Kyurem that you can just swap into, I was simply providing an example.

Ferro loses anyway, regardless of circumstance. No amount of Steel or Fighting moves let it win.

Spear used for PP..? 'Kay. By the point you're worried enough that you need 48 PP to make you feel at ease, you're already losing the game.

Why Spear's PP is important is because DD stalls out its checks, which are typically also bulky. You're definitely not "already losing the game" if your Kyurem can use its "checks" as setup fodder.

I also only mentioned Espeon as a comparison regarding weakness, I wasn't saying Espeon was suspect worthy as you seem to imply.

Espeon just made no sense to compare to. It seems to me you're comparing their offensive stats... but 130 is nothing to sneeze at, not to mention Kyurem has it in BOTH. Kyurem just makes much better use of its offensive stats in the metagame, which is why I was so confused as to why would would reference Espeon. You basically said "if you lose to Kyu you use to Espeon". Very weird.

I would also like to ask about what you believe "checks Kyurem" because it seems like people believe that sending in another bulky pokemon against Kyurem is a good "check".

There's a handy Venn Diagram airfare posted earlier in the thread here (jump):

i made a chart visualizing some of the checks to each common set and how they overlap

Twelve of the checks listed in the main circles are bulky 'mons. Only the ones in red are the most reliable ('counters'), and don't check all the sets or have lost in high-profile, high skill-level games before.

Most of Kyurem's checks are bulky and SubDD preys on those. Kyurem isn't "uncheckable", no, but forcing multiple of these checks onto teams is what makes Kyurem bannable.

reiterating what you said:

'it seems like people believe that sending in another bulky pokemon against Kyurem is a good "check".'

This argument's been shot down before; tons of offensive checks crumple to Sub sets, which are very common and some of the best right now.

is forced to click Draco on Kyurems that aren't DD and boosting up to outspeed it (and DD sets also tank a Draco Meteor anyway), leading to insanely predictable sequences. If it clicks Shadow Ball, it just fucking dies and if it U-Turns... you're gonna have to go to your bulky Kyurem check. They're necessary.

Most everything else flat out folds to Sub: Kartana, Zap-G, Urshifu, et cetera.

are we forgetting that other sweepers exist? Kartana pops up to Kyurem as a two free buffs and one less pokemon for the opponent. Saying that makes Pressure a viable ability is like saying you want to see Blissey with Pressure because it can use Hard Boiled and maybe PP stall Sucker Punch.

...that's funny. How did that get there?

god, Hard Boiled....

"fight me, bitch. come on, click sucker punch. do it you won't. oooOOOooo im clicking close combat"

...

 

[Knuckstrike]

Kyurem's discussion has largely been about its ability to break through many of its counters. Foremost in this discussion has been the specs set, which is supposed to push kyurem over the limit. Personally, I find the specs set balanced on kyurem, and a healthy addition to the metagame.
Of course there's the occasions where it's the mid-game, kyurem's checks have been weakened, there's no rocks up on your side of the field but there are on the opponent's, and you predict the switch right. In this case, for example AV melmetal/blissey, some of its premier checks, do die to 2 focus blasts from kyurem. However, even in the ideal circumstance where you have a specs kyurem, predict and hit 2 blasts, now you're locked into one of the most abusable movetypes in the game and you've given half the tier a chance to set up on you for free. You can give a Victini or Specs Blacephalon or Lele a kill/setup, or a free DD to Dragonite/pult, or a free SD/sub to garchomp, or a free CD to mew, Volcarona gets to set up, Urshifu gets to predict for a kill, Pelipper gets the freeest U-turn into a rain sweeper, etc. Kyurem works best in the mid-game, and this is also where the other team's breakers can set up and follow up by punching holes themselves.
This isn't just a kyurem thing of course, other Band/Specs mons have the same purpose of having no real switch-ins at the risk of being locked into a potentially abusable move. This doesn't make the pokemon broken necessarily, only when combined with other broken sets.

The more problematic sets, and the more controversial sets in my opinion, are its bulkier sets. Specifically, the ones packing roost and some other status move. These sets are admittedly cause for concern; there are bulky teams which might not have any way to deal more than 40% to the right kyurem set, and might lose on the spot to a decently well played kyurem.
I find that in most games however, using kyurem's bulkier sets restrict its power significantly, in a way that most pokemon find it doable to come in on it a few times, scouting its set and taking a hit or two. While freeze dry prevents any water types from countering kyurem's main sets, its 70 base power leaves it unable to 2HKO or even 3HKO the majority of pokemon that aren't weak to it, making large chunks of opposing teams able to check it. This also alleviates the threat of getting a lucky freeze at a fortunate time: while its counters now no longer truly counter it, the entire enemy team now is able to take enough hits from kyurem to chip it down to 0 making a single freeze less detrimental. The calcs up in this thread where 252 252+SpD kyurem lives a specs moonblast from Lele are cute, but what are you gaining from it at all? Now you get to do 25% with earth power while kyurem is at 10% health and dies the next turn?

The most reasonable arguments for me are the invalidation of some teams in the semi-stall to bulky offense range with no kyurem counters, and it freshing up the metagame. On the first argument, there's a heavy restriction on those types of teams where they're almost forced to run either a Scizor/bulky volcy/glowking for fear of losing to an unlucky kyurem matchup. If they don't run a heavy hitter that can revenge kyurem, they risk becoming bait for repeated kyurem switchins with limited counterplay, and risking freezes if they can't keep rocks up on the field or at least make progress against it. I don't play this playstyle enough to know how badly they have it. From the surface it looks like you can build numerous good teams that pack some variety and still have kyurem answers, but I could be wrong.
The second one about it freshing up the metagame is not one I agree with, but I understand why other people would want it considering I haven't played nearly as much as them. For me, in most metagames (especially OM's suffer from this a lot imo), I hate not being able to use my old teams anymore cause they're outdated/have kyurem/etc, more than I dislike any metagame staleness cause I'm fine with where it's at atm.

If Kyurem had both in one set -- significant power and being able to stall and set up on 'mid-strength' Pokémon, it would unquestionably be banworthy. But to me currently, practically speaking in the metagame, Kyurem's powerful sets are strong but fair and leave kyurem's team open for retaliation, and Kyurem's bulky sets leave enough time for the opponent to figure out what it's running, and because of its mediocre speed, typing, and lack of power, leave time for the opponent to break its substitutes and prevent it from brawling through entire teams. Unlike previous suspects which usually had very few drawbacks and could solo a wide variety of teams, kyurem's every set has some exploitable weaknesses and some form of counterplay on most reasonable teams. Therefore I'm inclined to vote No Ban atm.