Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 11 - Break The Ice

[Smashburn]

Lots of posts to reply to but I'll just post one response for all:

a) I assumed in the motion of the battle that it was a scarf or band because they used the same move and swapped out when they had a clear advantage typing wise ie using Close Combat, me swapping to Volcarona, them swapping out to reset their locked move. Swift Swim I'm sure was a factor in speed, but the individual I battled was either very... interesting about their decisions or they were scarfed/banded. I assumed the latter.

b) The replay showing how "good" Kyurem is, didn't show anything but the bad decisions made by the opponent. The opponent went from Ferrothorn to Slowbro (likely because his Ferrothorn didn't run Gyro I guess? Player choice :shrug:). The dancing continued as his opponent just tried swapping into Landorus to... attempt to lower his attack... then swapped into Weavile after? Heatran was putting in work, he lost because he stopped using Flash Cannon and allowed for more set up... though I can't say that's exactly true because the Heatran didn't even seem like it was built for the task he was trying for to begin with. Magma Storm missed giving another turn, he didn't have taunt which is shocking since I get taunted by every Heatran ever, and he seemed like he just ran out of options because Substitute killed his entire "stalling strategy". His opponent had no sweepers and frankly just seemed incapable of dealing with any other meta team just as much as Kyurem.

c) I'll be sure to save replays for next time but it was 5am and I was too tired to think about smart people stuff.

d) PP stall isn't a valid tactic (on Kyurem). Let me give actual reasoning as to why since a lot of people seem devoted to how Pressure on Kyurem is too much to deal with. The reason why PP stalling is not a valid tactic is because it's *too slow*. PP stalling is *only viable* against other stallers and hardly that. Kyurem itself is just a pokemon that has a lot of potential sweeping and avoiding pokemon that can stop it in its tracks. I wasn't showing that Kyurem was bad but that he is just *another pokemon that belongs in OU* because he doesn't do anything remarkable enough for uber. If your goal is to PP stall with Kyurem you'll have to pretend other sweepers don't exist because Kyurem doesn't have the power moves to be able to deal with other sweepers if yours is built up to Dragon Dance sweep. At the point you're successfully PP stalling and your opponent is worried about it, you've already won. If your Kyurem is attempting to sub stall with no set up and rely on roost then your team is probably just as useless against Espeon. Can't gimp Espeon's Magic Bounce and Espeon's SpA is the same as Kyurem's so if you're losing to a SpA Kyurem stall then you should likely consider adding pokemon to your team that can do something.

e) Now to explain why Heavy-Duty boots isn't good for Kyurem: if your team loses to rocks you need a way to get rid of them anyways. If your goal with Kyurem is to keep him out then Heavy-Duty boots save you from potential that should've already been removed. Sure, it saves Kyurem 25% which is good and I'm not saying Heavy-Duty boots are bad in general as swapping is crucial, it has a lot of great application, but being worried about rocks against Kyurem seems like "noob bait" to me, you shouldn't have hazards when swapping into your sweeper to begin with and Heavy-Duty boots seem like a lazy way to act like rocks don't exist. Okay, I'll compromise that Heavy-Duty boots are decent just because he can't benefit from a lot of good items anyways but it's far from scary or meta breaking.

f) Correct. Icicle Spear is a good move over a long-game with a set up Kyurem that is given a lot of turns to play because you average out the Icicle Spears to have a potentially higher damage output... over the course of a few turns the average Icicle Spear damage is *dun da duh dun* an average move. I'll give a little more credit, as it is good against important things like Sub and Sash but if Icicle Spear is what you're worried about being a meta contester for Uber then you need to reconsider your team if you know Kyurem exists in the meta and *decide not to deal with it*. Volcarona's sweep potential is also amazing but it's countered hard by certain pokemon (now that HP is gone :c) and these are pokemon that people bring understanding the meta and what pokemon counter what. It's literally the player's fault for deciding to ignore Kyurem's capabilities and coming under prepared because it has a lot of weaknesses.

g) Choice Specs seem like a decent option as other people have mentioned because it's a fast strategy that allows Kyurem to go in, pull off a strong move, and dip. The same can be said about any pokemon though so I hope we're not talking about him being considered for uber when we talk about Choice Specs because many other pokemon can do that same job. I'm still having difficulty seeing why people believe Focus Blast is amazing. "Perfect 3 hit KO on my spec'd Kyurem". Okay. Hope you land all 3 considering you nearly have a 1/3rd chance to miss. I hope that my opponent plays into it. I hope that my opponent doesn't swap. I hope that my opponent stands perfectly still and takes it.

h) Clefable successfully got stalled by Kyurem because Clefable is a one trick pony. Oh no. Retrospect Stored Power probably would've done more if you had enough turns to set up like that. but only 16 pp11!1 k.

i) Later on I'll make a few videos and post them to show battles in more detail. Maybe you guys can challenge me with your amazing Kyurem build and we can further discuss in detail through the course of a battle. To note, I'm definitely not saying Kyurem is a bad pokemon as you guys seem to believe. I mentioned he put in a lot of work earlier but as an uber the only thing that supports an uber status would be his base stats and even then, not crazy about it. Low speed, "average atk and spa" for a good pokemon, oh but that THICK HP :triumph:.

Plenty of people have already beat me to the punch so here is what I have left to say:

A). Firstly, this needs some context. If it is referring to the battles, then you not only need insight and a rundown, the you need the ACTUAL REPLAY because otherwise it's just word-spewing and no one has any idea what you are talking about.

B). I won't mention the obvious here.

C). So you decided to post anyways? Who in their right mind would finish an incomplete and scrambled thought, then wake up the next day just to defend it? Not to mention you clearly have 0 idea what you are talking about and you are tarnishing your credibility here entirely.

D). This is obviously false. PP Stalling has proven to be a huge pressure to teambuilding since it can just blot out would-be checks and counters through stall. For example, Blissey is PP stalled out of Seismic Toss thanks to Kyurem's Pressure and 101 HP Substitutes. Clefable, who's Moonblasts are tanked as Kyurem easily Pressure stalls until Moonblast's PP has run out and Clefable has no means to answer Kyurem. Ferrothorn, who's moves are easily PP stalled against Kyurem regardless of the effectiveness (I.E. Body Press, Gyro Bal, Iron Head), at which is is then fodder.

If your goal is to PP stall with Kyurem you'll have to pretend other sweepers don't exist because Kyurem doesn't have the power moves to be able to deal with other sweepers if yours is built up to Dragon Dance sweep.

You can't just get it in on something and go "well now he has Dragapult so I'm screwed." You're thinking way too much on the 1v1 scenario, nor are you considering the checks and counters of threats to Kyurem. Built up to DD Sweep but you left Melmetal unaccounted for? "Oh well I guess I'll just sack Kyurem and not obviously go to Corviknight."

Also, what do other sweepers have to do with Kyurem? Its sets each pose a unique threat that does not have the same checks and "counters." You act as if Kyurem just comes in and dies, then you plainly ignore every other detail about it.

If your Kyurem is attempting to sub stall with no set up and rely on roost then your team is probably just as useless against Espeon. Can't gimp Espeon's Magic Bounce and Espeon's SpA is the same as Kyurem's so if you're losing to a SpA Kyurem stall then you should likely consider adding pokemon to your team that can do something.

What kind of an example is this? Stats aren't the only determinant of function, it is a blend of factors that you obviously are missing. This isn't Pokemon TCG. How does Magic Guard even relate to Kyurem anyways? It has nothing to do with this situation.

At the point you're successfully PP stalling and your opponent is worried about it, you've already won.

That's not how it works, dude.

Additionally, you have mentioned Kyurem's viability in Ubers as if it even matters in OU. Cinderace was banned and how do you think that affected it? Higher tiers do NOT play into how a lower one is balanced, tiers are dealt with individually.

E&G). HydreigonTheChild already summarized both of these well.

Lets see... sometimes you want to keep your own hazards and not have to lose 25% hp when you are forced to bring kyurem in, heavy duty boots allow kyurem to pivot in constantly on pokemon rather than losing 25% hp, it helps it stay healthy for when it wants to actually do shit. Sure he benefits from a lot of good items, these items are called choice scarf, choice specs, never melt ice, metrenome, and WOW you couldn't have guessed it! Heavy-Duty Boots!

Many pokemon cannot replicate what kyurem can do that is the thing, tapu lele has bad defensive stats and its sets share common counters just like other specs breakers like dragapult, blace, and aegislash. Focus blast is a good midground move for kyurem sometimes as you can catch a heatran switching into sub kyurem or just being able to break through blissey with ease. The statement "It can miss, so therefore cannot be broken as it cannot hit all 3 right?" Its pretty wrong as you as the opponent are risking all this on a potential gamble, but what if it hits all 3? Oh no, then that means I am screwed.

F). Why are you comparing Kyurem and Volcarona? They aren't even in the same ballpark. Again, Icicle Spear is the most consistent move for SubDD Kyurem for its high PP. You are failing to recognize that this is particularly potent on Kyurem as it utilizes SubPressure to outstall would-be checks and allows it to set up.

It isn't just the individual set that pressures teambuilding, it is the plethora of sets it has that require different answers.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Last responses for today so I don't clutter the post:
To qwert: No, they aren't stallers... I'm not sure where you got the impression that I said Scizor was a staller when I mentioned it was a sweeper. I just wanted to clarify that. You must've swapped your Ferrothorn in as it was already subbed if you're losing that interaction but that comes down to simple prediction. Ferrothorn isn't a hard counter to Kyurem that you can just swap into, I was simply providing an example. Spear used for PP..? 'Kay. By the point you're worried enough that you need 48 PP to make you feel at ease, you're already losing the game. I also only mentioned Espeon as a comparison regarding weakness, I wasn't saying Espeon was suspect worthy as you seem to imply. I simply don't use legendary pokemon as a personal preference because I like to make the best of other pokemon but I'm not delusional I'm quite aware of the tier system and I'm more than fine with certain legendary pokemon in the OU, clearly. I know I wrote out a lot but reading in full typically prevents miscommunication. I would also like to ask about what you believe "checks Kyurem" because it seems like people believe that sending in another bulky pokemon against Kyurem is a good "check". I likely won't respond until tomorrow though to prevent spamming the post.

No offense to you but i feel like you are not as well versed in the metagame as you think, its not wrong to like teams without legendaries (i myself love to use weird and wacky teams), but reading some of the reasoning has had me scratching my head,
My perspective is from 1900+ OU Ladder and also often watching Tournaments that has been hold (OLT, SCL, Smogtours)

Im going to be quoting the first question but im gonna answer all of them (since it seems that it is very very long.

Scizor in SS OU currently, IS a pivot that walls lele and kyurem and stalls the opponent out no matter how you look at it, can it still be an offensive threat? yes, i have seen many Hyper Offense build with scizor doing well, but unlike gen 4 OU, gen 5 OU or gen 7 UU, scizor is used very much as a staller, even if u dont think so. which can do good vs SubRoost or Specs or NMI kyurem. but not DD Kyurem, scizor is one of the big 3 counters to Kyurem other than lele and melmetal, but it no longer is due to DD Kyurem outstalling and Specs Kyurem able to 2hko it.

To down: Kyurem doesn't have *strong enough* kill potential which is the problem. Pokemon without potential to kill or prove to be immediate threats are nests for sweepers. Yes he isn't using his typing defensively. Shedinja is funny but terrible why do people think this pokemon is remotely good? Oh! It's a good switch in against... moves!

This is also something i am confused about, as Specs Kyurem, even from the Do Not Ban side of the argument is known to be one of the strogest breakers in OU that has little to no switchins, yes it gets walled by shedinja, but so does half the pokemon in the entire games, this mon is very oppresive just on itself, but combined with the potential of many sets like DD which requires different support, or teammates Like Hippowdon, Urshifu, Tapu Lele, Tornadus-T, Lando-T, Magnezone, Melmetal, Heatran etc, it becomes extremely hard.
Just incase you werent talking about the offensive sets like NMI, Specs or Weather but bulky subroost, they have different checks. you said "gyro ball can still counter as it breaks 4 subs" Kyurem used Roost. gyro ball never ohkoes remember that. Even if ur iron head you know whats the best counter?
Switching. you just switch to the counter of your kyurem check. Kyurem is often build with Torn-T, Heatran and Magnezone to beat steels since thats just common sense in building as you point out in your other point, you cant just counter kyurem but you also have to be able to counter common kyurem teammates

Sub Roost - Melmetal, Pex, Heatran, Lando, Fini, Koko, Zone
Specs - Tapu Lele, Glowking, Corviknight, Lando, Torn-T, Urshifu, Weavile, Blacephalon
DD Kyurem (pp stall) - Torn-T, Pex, Corvi, Zone, Heatran, Scizor, Zapdos, Suicune, Lando-T

Just as an example, you cant just beat a pokemon, you need to beat a team with that pokemon, if that wasnt the case then spectrier wouldnt have been banned as it needs support. Kyurem holds all of its team together with an always looming potential to 6-0 which always puts your opponents in a backfoot, even if you never send it out it still will be good as it always makes your opponent put in an awkward situation.

b) The replay showing how "good" Kyurem is, didn't show anything but the bad decisions made by the opponent. The opponent went from Ferrothorn to Slowbro (likely because his Ferrothorn didn't run Gyro I guess? Player choice :shrug:). The dancing continued as his opponent just tried swapping into Landorus to... attempt to lower his attack... then swapped into Weavile after? Heatran was putting in work, he lost because he stopped using Flash Cannon and allowed for more set up... though I can't say that's exactly true because the Heatran didn't even seem like it was built for the task he was trying for to begin with. Magma Storm missed giving another turn, he didn't have taunt which is shocking since I get taunted by every Heatran ever, and he seemed like he just ran out of options because Substitute killed his entire "stalling strategy". His opponent had no sweepers and frankly just seemed incapable of dealing with any other meta team just as much as Kyurem.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1461513480-8i5x92y0wstkqgp3x00njwt2qwovh2ipw see this replay for dd kyurem (yes i won but that doesnt exclude the fact that on a well made team kyurem is extremely oppressive)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-582952 NMI Kyurem winning

NOW You have to remember, NO BATTLES ARE PERFECT, these are from tournaments at the highest level, people use up 60 seconds a turn to think of potential switches, doubles etc. while in retrospect things like slowbro switching looks Dumb, but in the heat of the battle, he couldve switched and still be on top with an offensive advantage. so pointing out the mistakes now is easy but while playing it, its very very hard.

d) PP stall isn't a valid tactic (on Kyurem). Let me give actual reasoning as to why since a lot of people seem devoted to how Pressure on Kyurem is too much to deal with. The reason why PP stalling is not a valid tactic is because it's *too slow*. PP stalling is *only viable* against other stallers and hardly that. Kyurem itself is just a pokemon that has a lot of potential sweeping and avoiding pokemon that can stop it in its tracks. I wasn't showing that Kyurem was bad but that he is just *another pokemon that belongs in OU* because he doesn't do anything remarkable enough for uber. If your goal is to PP stall with Kyurem you'll have to pretend other sweepers don't exist because Kyurem doesn't have the power moves to be able to deal with other sweepers if yours is built up to Dragon Dance sweep. At the point you're successfully PP stalling and your opponent is worried about it, you've already won. If your Kyurem is attempting to sub stall with no set up and rely on roost then your team is probably just as useless against Espeon. Can't gimp Espeon's Magic Bounce and Espeon's SpA is the same as Kyurem's so if you're losing to a SpA Kyurem stall then you should likely consider adding pokemon to your team that can do something.

I have a bone to pick with this and im going to explain why PP Stalling is legitemate even vs offense and hyper offense. DD Kyurem beats pokemon it shouldnt, i have seen it beat Lele, Urshifu, Ferrothorn, Scizor. you know, counters! there are teams where pp stall are the main niche and in my opinion, as an offense player, have a good matchup vs offense and stall, and it is generally more consistent than many HO that exist, because you just... stall the pp. and even if u dont wanna use a pp stall team, DDKyurem fits under balance and even offense, theres a popular team in 1950+ of the ladder of Screens Koko/DD Bulky Kyurem/Demon Mew (Cosmic power taunt)/Hawlucha/SD Kartana/ any offense mon (zeraora, blaceph, celesteela)



this is in no way a stall team, and its in no way "too slow" yet the pp stalling dd kyurem is good on it, DD Kyurem is extremely oppressive because it fits on any style of team and can beat its counter, it pp stalls urshifu, it dd's up on lele switching it and kill it. it has very little counter and you have to go all out on it "but just set up hazards as it is leftovers" the balance teams it fits on usually has double defog in Torn-T, Lando-T, Corviknight or even Spin Eleki "just use weavile vs it, sounds weak to it" it also carries steels like Flame Body Tran, Melmetal or even pex.

if you are on high ladder or in a tournament match you would know why this set is broken. it has very little counter, and the few counter it has? is weak to Specs kyurem which can be bluffed easily since both DDKyu and Specs kyu fits on the same team except for stall as it needs the same support (defog, screens, offense) except on stall, but even then. specs kyu is good on stall

 

[Baloor]

havent got reqs yet but im malding at ladder so ill post my thoughts for when i get them because it might take a bit since me and doing long ladder runs dont mix well. ill be honest i have not read the past few pages because it was just fighting so i didnt care to read them. so im going to post the reasons why im voting ban, if i repeat points from earlier and people have a problem with that than whatever.

the most reliable checks are not very good vs much else in the meta or lose to a different variant of kyurem and trying to fit extensive counterplay into your defensive cores derails teambuilding

im going to start of with this, making a good team that checks every single kyurem set defensively is near impossible in the current meta. this is a sacrifice you have to accept currently, as if you don't you are going to have to sacrifice a ton of other mus defensively. I say near impossible because there is a couple of routes you can go down, let me go into further detail;

this is the best kyurem check. but thats about it. this mon does nothing else defensively reliably and id much prefer any other steel but sometimes you just have to run this thing, which really sucks.
+ steel this is a lot of peoples go-to coping method in the builder for kyu until you realize that blissey is incredibly passive and this core is very easily beaten down by kyurem + any sort of team support.
this is probably the best option for offensive teams, however, using this as your kyurem check in a game also means youre probably not going to be using that volc offensively.
this is a decent option for bo but gets worn down pretty easily and doesnt win the 1v1, but it can poison it or set up when of your revenge killers
its shedinja, nobody is using this unless it stall. actually can get pp stalled too.
stacking steels if im not running scizor, this is probably my go to. its not optimal and can be worn down but this option leads to the most reliable outcome with the least shit teams.

anything i didnt mention is far from consistent *cough* ttar *cough*, loses a a certain set (waters in particular) or gets pp'd stalled (clef lol). the argument for just use offensive counterplay exists but that comes with losing a mon every time kyurem comes in just so you can get in a revenge killer then you feel stupid because the kyurem just switches out or if youre extra lucky it lives your attack and kills you because its bulk is pretty insane. the result of this ends up being teams looking and playing relatively the same, while i cant put all the blame on kyurem for this, its definitely a notably big factor.im in belief that banning kyurem would at least make building a bit more exciting because as it currently stands you either ignore it in builder and pray or suffer for overprepping. i can also see a couple of offensive options rising too that are either annoyed by kyurem defensively or outclassed by kyurem.

freeze

anybody who thinks this is a non factor and compares freeze to spdef drops from pult has the greatest luck in the world. i have been on the giving AND receiving end of kyurem freezes and its just stupid. kyurem can randomly maybe decommission a mon for potentially the rest of the game just because it clicked a move. at least fucking spdef drops go away when you switch. all the "counterplay" i listed above? depending on the situation can lose to kyurem because they get frozen. normally i wouldnt mention hax in a pro ban post unless it was cloyster but the fact that the checks are few and far inbetween + the few that work can get frozen and lose, i just cannot not mention it. people seem to forgot that freeze does not work like sleep on sim either, multiple pokemon can be frozen. if i saved the replay of me losing a ssnl game to a x3 kyurem freeze i would 100% post it right now. freeze is dumb.

the ability to pick checks in the builder

this has been something ive complained about in older suspect threads so im on record on thinking mons like this are generally unhealthy. theres some other pokemon in the meta right now that have a similar ability like kyurem to pick its checks in the builder, like tapu lele, but most of those have some pretty universal checks are actually good pokemon. kyurem straight up has one mon that checks every set and that pokemon isnt even good, see airfare's chart, every set has a different check and like i said earlier its pretty hard to fit checks for every single one of these onto a team unless you really like scizor. kyurem typically forces headgames early on for you to guess its set and abuses that to make progress and sometimes in this ingame side quest to guess the set you can end up sacking your check all together. if this was my main point id be voting do not ban but this coupled with the main points and side points i presented above make me think kyurem is generally unhealthy for the current metagame.

 

[Sp0oN1oRd]

Has anyone run with a Rock Slide Kyurem these days? I have not, so I've been running bulky Volcarona with Bug Buzz to bypass Substitute as my Kuyrem answer. There's a Tapu Lele too to halve the power of Draco Meteor.

Actually not rock slide, but stone edge. I got my suspect reqs with the following team - https://pokepast.es/8ad6293311f4a9ed. (Attack EVs are to 2hko blissey with edge.) Lele doesn't halve draco's power as a side note, that's fini. Bug buzz is also unnecessary, it just gives the kyurem less chances to freeze you. Any attack will do on bulky volc.
Not saying that stone edge kyurem is good, or even nessesarily viable, just that kyurem can really do whatever it wants and succeed. Anything you do to stop kyurem has some kind of counterplay. Nothing will beat every set because kyurem has just the right stats, ability, and movepool to be that way. It doesn't help that it has a lot of very good teammates that are already popular and strong pokemon in the meta. Some kind of kyurem can fit on every style, and often multiple different ones will fit. You don't know what it will do until it starts doing it, and at that point you are at a big disadvantage. That would be fine if it didn't have 130 in both attack stats, a solid speed tier, and surprisingly high bulk with pressure and healing. I think of it less as kyurem having to guess right, and more as the opponent having to guess right. If kyurem ice beams into a ttar, the kyurem player doesn't really lose all that much, compared to the ttar player losing possibly the game immediately off of a focus blast predict. If kyurem had to blast into something that killed it back, that would be less of a problem, but almost nothing threatens out kyurem immediately. It gets too many chances to get the right read, the right setup opportunity, or the right freeze. Freeze would not normally be a point in a suspect test, but when the thing that causes the freeze gets at least 3 chances to throw out a super powerful ice beam per standard game, it's a problem. The fact is that if you get every read right against kyurem, it is fairly likely to beat you in the long run because of freeze. Because of all of these things and more, I will be voting ban when the time comes. Kyurem does too many things, and it does them all very well. You cannot beat all of the sets reliably and reasonably. It restricts teambuilding too much to be healthy.

 

[remetagross]

Ah yes that was a typo I meant Fini. And good point about any attack doing the trick, at some point with enough boosts any move will break the sub I guess.

 

[Xilefi]

My greetings to all,

Before I point out what I want to point out, I have to say that I am not going to argue for a ban or non-ban of Kyurem as I don't have the reqs and I don't play enough to have a correct and comprehensive view. In this regard, I trust you, dear Showdown users. However, I have been involved and interested in many metagames in different competitive formats in different games. As always, it seems to me that the use of the term "healthy" for a format is misunderstood. I don't pretend to be able to explain it any better than the people involved in the council but I would like to make a few comments about it after reading the whole (very interesting) thread.

In most games, a metagame is called healthy when the format is self-correcting, meaning that players are able to adapt to the best strategies of the moment. On the contrary, a metagame is considered unhealthy when it does not progress, which means that players focus their strategies to beat the same defined number of threats. The number of strategies involved may vary in both cases, it doesn't really matter in the end, the key point is "Is the metagame course frozen or not ?". To be clear, just because a metagame is interesting, skill intensive or enjoyable to play does not mean it is healthy. Of course, it is a limited definition as some other considerations can be involved like poorly designed mechanics inducing unfun experience in a competitive environment.

I have to say that many, if not most, people don't understand the bigger picture or at least don't talk about it. Most of what has been said is about how to reliably check and counter Kyurem in the current state of the format, but not what it means for the rest of the format. Sometimes it is difficult and takes time to adapt, but do these adaptations deter players from using Kyurem ? Are the adaptations able to advance the metagame or are they now part of the problem ? More concretely, does loading your team with Kyurem checks and counters, like Scizor, Blissey and Volcarona, push players towards other strategies ?

By just reading the thread, I have understood that Kyurem is a thriving pokemon is current OU which has some decent checks and counters. Some people have expressed that they feel they have to put at least a few of those during the teambuilding process in order to deal with Kyurem. Some people have expressed they don't feel the same need. Most people are only talking about maths involving Kyurem. But I have not understood why these people feel this way. In what playing against Kyurem is or is not preventing you to play different strategies ? In what playing its checks and counters is or is not preventing you to play different strategies ? What would you play if you didn't have to ?

I hope my post isn't too stupid (if it is, please ignore me) and that it will help the thread stay interesting and give rise to new arguments for or against banning Kyurem.

I wish you all a happy Christmas, take care of yourselves and thank you all for making showdown and smogon so great.

 

[Master Radomus]

Unfortunately I didn't get to battle more than one Kyurem recently when I started recording. I'm using Kyurem on my team for testing but nothing out of the ordinary so far.

A lot of these battles where I won because of Kyurem aren't against very good players yet. Most of the battles I won were actually because of Volcarona. :shrug: Here are the ones where Kyurem got the best of people I suppose.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469511575-j049qfzsgjeb9iah7cl0aksj5j8sorlpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469719600-ikitywuy0w7hdgowu6u02lalzljwup4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469755613<- kyurem beat?!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469761054

What I realized in my recent battles:
PP stalling the weakness of *certain* popular pokemon due to their lack of ability to kill/sweep Kyurem because Kyurem is the type of pokemon that can win almost any stalemate. I already understood how strong it is against other bulky pokemon with less sufficient kill power but Pressure does utilize his bulkiness in these match ups more efficiently. Be that as it may, I do not consider it to be *too strong* at all, in fact I consider that to be important due to the current complacency of a relatively stall heavy meta. Kyurem's presence simply forces you to re-utilize pokemon with the ability to set up again because Kyurem has very little way of dealing with opponents that set up against it outside of a move nobody seems to use on it.

Kyurem's counters that have been listed are hardly counters outside of pokemon like Scizor which can easily deal with Kyurem unless you're really unlucky or already set up to lose.

I'm still in favor of against the ban because it isn't as insane as people claim it to be, though it is a good pokemon.

Smashburn: Yeah they aren't in the same ballpark. Volcarona is much stronger but Kyurem has less unfavorable match ups now that HP is gone. Volcarona is still overall the better pokemon imo. Your constant examples of how Blissey and Ferrothorn gets stalled out by Kyurem still only proves my point further. Stop sending out pokemon that aren't good against Kyurem. shrug The base stats were used as a comparison. Magic *Bounce* was used as a comparison as well. Context is key. Is anyone actually reading what I'm saying? Yes it's a versatile pokemon. I'm not arguing saying it's bad, I'm arguing saying it's not good enough to be banned.

Baloor: I don't know how to debate your point. It seems you're arguing more about the freeze status than Kyurem. Perhaps you'd rather ban Jirachi for having Serene Grace and being able to use Ice Punch instead for an insane 20% chance to freeze. shrug

Mimikyu: True. Scizor has a lot of success in general and he has been capable of adapting to the current meta due to his versatility as well. Be that as it may, Kyurem still loses the match up to Kyurem. No unsetup Kyurem will take a chance against Scizor and if they do they lose the matchup.

Yes specs on Kyurem is strong. I'm not arguing that, but by no means is that ban-worthy. Never has been, never should be. Locking moves is one of the most "fair" punishments in the game. Yes, my bad, looking into Gyro ball wasn't a good example against any competent player. I would like to see how 'oppressive' it is still, because I've had no trouble dealing with it before and people have done just as fine against me using it too.

 

[Smashburn]

Unfortunately I didn't get to battle more than one Kyurem recently when I started recording. I'm using Kyurem on my team for testing but nothing out of the ordinary so far.

A lot of these battles where I won because of Kyurem aren't against very good players yet. Most of the battles I won were actually because of Volcarona. :shrug: Here are the ones where Kyurem got the best of people I suppose.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469511575-j049qfzsgjeb9iah7cl0aksj5j8sorlpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469719600-ikitywuy0w7hdgowu6u02lalzljwup4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469755613<- kyurem beat?!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469761054

You're playing at the bare minimum of ladder (1000) where literally anything works so I hope you know what that implies about the validity of anything you say based off of this.

For anyone who is too lazy to watch 5 minutes of low ladder teams:

Game 1 - Kyurem Sweep
Game 2 - Kyurem Sweep
Game 3 - He clearly has the opportunity to switch out and attempts to 1v1 a Stakataka. A x4 resist with multiple STABs and coverage that can't be stalled out.
Game 4 - The opponent obviously has no idea what they are doing, not to mention they are using odd non-optimal sets. I'm not quite sure why he even showed this.

The replay showing how "good" Kyurem is, didn't show anything but the bad decisions made by the opponent.

Quite ironic now, isn't it.

What I realized in my recent battles:
PP stalling the weakness of *certain* popular pokemon due to their lack of ability to kill/sweep Kyurem because Kyurem is the type of pokemon that can win almost any stalemate. I already understood how strong it is against other bulky pokemon with less sufficient kill power but Pressure does utilize his bulkiness in these match ups more efficiently. Be that as it may, I do not consider it to be *too strong* at all, in fact I consider that to be important due to the current complacency of a relatively stall heavy meta.

Addressing these in order:

Can I get less vague answers as to what it PP stalls or why Kyurem is the type of Pokemon that can win any stalemate? This information was previously refutable to you, I want to know what you are thinking.

Why do you understand how strong it is? I'm not asking for what you've posted, I'm asking for you to question it. Take the time to dissect what you are saying and apply those concepts to other evidence you can find. Maybe if a majority of people believe something, there is a reason for it. It doesn't mean you have to agree, but you need educated responses to common questions that don't rely so heavily on your opinion.

Kyurem's presence simply forces you to re-utilize pokemon with the ability to set up again because Kyurem has very little way of dealing with opponents that set up against it outside of a move nobody seems to use on it.

This is vague and the terminology is too obscure to understand. Please simplify this, or if it requires more explaination, expound on it.

Kyurem's counters that have been listed are hardly counters outside of pokemon like Scizor which can easily deal with Kyurem unless you're really unlucky or already set up to lose.

Kyurem has plenty of counters and while its stats are versatile, his moveset is not. His ability does not make up for his weaknesses and his typing makes him weak to really strong pokemon already.

Your left hand knows what your right hand is doing. In other words, you have managed to contradict yourself in a short amount of time.

Smashburn: Yeah they aren't in the same ballpark. Volcarona is much stronger but Kyurem has less unfavorable match ups now that HP is gone. Volcarona is still overall the better pokemon imo.

If you can assess that they are not in the same ballpark, then why are you still comparing them? It's just an opinion to substitute factual evidence.

Your constant examples of how Blissey and Ferrothorn gets stalled out by Kyurem still only proves my point further. Stop sending out pokemon that aren't good against Kyurem. shrug The base stats were used as a comparison. Magic *Bounce* was used as a comparison as well. Context is key.

How? I have proved that something which should naturally check its respective variant is made useless by Kyurem's tools. The Pokemon are good in general, but Kyurem's variety shrinks the pool of viable checks to virtually nothing which makes pressure on teambuilding too strenuous. This breaks down team function against other archetypes, it is overcentralization.

Additionally, what kind of an example is Magic Bounce? Why is that connection being made? You had no reasonable context whatsoever.

That comparison made as much sense as giving Blissey Pressure so it can stall out Sucker Punch from Bisharp with Hard Boiled.

Is anyone actually reading what I'm saying? Yes it's a versatile pokemon. I'm not arguing saying it's bad, I'm arguing saying it's not good enough to be banned.

Believe it is not, yes. Yes I am. If you want anyone to listen to and respect/agree with what you are saying however, your responses need to become more educated and less reactive.

Baloor: I don't know how to debate your point. It seems you're arguing more about the freeze status than Kyurem. Perhaps you'd rather ban Jirachi for having Serene Grace and being able to use Ice Punch instead for an insane 20% chance to freeze. shrug

Mimikyu: True. Scizor has a lot of success in general and he has been capable of adapting to the current meta due to his versatility as well. Be that as it may, Kyurem still loses the match up to Kyurem. No unsetup Kyurem will take a chance against Scizor and if they do they lose the matchup.

I'll let Baloor and Mimikyu Stardust speak on their own behalves.

 

[Baloor]

Baloor: I don't know how to debate your point. It seems you're arguing more about the freeze status than Kyurem. Perhaps you'd rather ban Jirachi for having Serene Grace and being able to use Ice Punch instead for an insane 20% chance to freeze. shrug

youre looking at this in vacuum. we can argue anything to be balanced by tunneling in on one thing rather than the bigger picture really. spect wasnt broken because it only had ghost moves. vish wasnt broken because it was walled by fat water types like toad. zama wasnt broken because it had no reliable recovery. its a simple way of thinking.

the status of freeze itself is not broken. its all the annoying aspects of kyurem + freeze thats makes it worth bringing it up as its quite a frequent occurance. togekiss and jirachi with their hax cheese is not broken because everything else about them is not very good.

i wrote 2 other paragraphs for reason lol. theres aspects to what makes something broken rather than having stupid good stats and typing.

 

[Fight3r m@n]

I think the primary issue with kyurem is that there are really only 3 pokemon that effectively deal with it. However, I'd argue that a complex ban preventing kyurem from being run with freeze dry or perhaps even earth power would be just as effective while still allowing kyurem to be run, as removing either of these moves from it would allow significantly more pokemon to counter kyurem which solves the big problem of it having very few true counters.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Mimikyu: True. Scizor has a lot of success in general and he has been capable of adapting to the current meta due to his versatility as well. Be that as it may, Kyurem still loses the match up to Kyurem. No unsetup Kyurem will take a chance against Scizor and if they do they lose the matchup.

Yes specs on Kyurem is strong. I'm not arguing that, but by no means is that ban-worthy. Never has been, never should be. Locking moves is one of the most "fair" punishments in the game. Yes, my bad, looking into Gyro ball wasn't a good example against any competent player. I would like to see how 'oppressive' it is still, because I've had no trouble dealing with it before and people have done just as fine against me using it too.

im not saying just specs kyurem is ban worthy, im saying Kyurem as a whole is ban worthy, In high ladder games (and tournaments too) most people know how to beat kyurem counters and build their team around abusing how powerful and versatile kyurem is. One of the main counter play to kyurem is to know the sets as specific sets have different counters, for example specs set beat melmetal while being countered by urshifu, and subDD loses to melmetal while 1v1 urshifu. now the thing about "you never struggling" is, without any offense meant againts you is because you are still low on ladder on those replays and ur main account MASTER RADOMUS or even OUTH RADOMUS are still very low on ladder which is a terrible place to look at a pokemons viability, and havent seen high ladder games and what it can do, an example of this is with something like dugtrio where newer players dont know how to abuse it yet.

and in some of those replays even you make some questionable decission like staying in vs stakataka with kyurem under trick room?https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1469755613 i get youre trying to PP Stall but thats not how you do it.

the opponent SD-ing vs a +1 volcarona instead of attacking?


take my post as an example https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...s-round-11-break-the-ice.3694129/post-9044911
here i listed 8 teams

the main counter to kyurem is to know the sets, but people have been able to build teams with kyurem and its different sets to mimmick teams that may be another set. for example

DD kyurem likes lando torn melmetal and corvi for defog support, hell, double defog to give defensive back bone as well with melm, but specs kyurem also fits very well with those 3 afformentioned mons with lando corvi and torn as pivots and defog, and melmetal as a physical attacker to beat the speical walls that may want to switch into it.


and ive seen you talk lengths about scizor beating kyurem... and yes scizor DOES beat kyurem, but, Tapu lele, AV Melm and Spdef Scizor are the ONLY mons that beat ALL 3 SETS of kyurem, just because something beats it, or hell, something good beats it doesnt mean its not ban worthy (Magearna loses to Spdef heatran, Spectrier loses to Hydreigon)
and the fact that kyurem SPREADS freezes so often and making the counters thats supposed to switchin and beat kyurem a non factor, giving the kyurem user free switchins and turns to set up or just kill the kyurem counter with kyurem, is just not healthy

So kyurem as a whole, NOT IN A VACCUM

1. Has amazing specs set that can beat its special walls with coverage or freezes since its able to spread it so reliably due to very little switchin or counter play unlike buzzwole and melmetal ice punch or arctozolt blizzard. so it has A HUGE WALLBREAKING potential.

2. Has a vast array of sets from weather to PP stall to sub roost to physical offense, that each set require vastly different counters and the only pokemon that reliably switch into every sets are AV melm, Spdef Scizor and Tapu Lele, and if ur Sun Kyurem, Only Lele

3. Can be easily supported and fits very well with some of the best mons like Lando, Torn, Corvi, Ferro, Pex, Melm, Zone, Lele, Shifu, Weavile, Eleki, Weathers, with most of its sets and support each other

4. The best counter play to kyurem is knowing its sets, and one thing to do in preview to know its set is to look at its teammates but every kyurem set generally fits on ANY kyurem team from stall to HO so it becomes almost impossible to predict the set, so youre forced to play either very agressive to not let kyurem in, or very passive so you have a lot of counter plays left for kyurem (Think of DPP Ubers Dialga, except theres no other broken ubers to help balance it out) so you cant guess kyurem sets reliably

5. has 3 reliable counter in scizor melm and lele (look at number 2)

those are some of the reason why kyurem as a whole in the meta at large, when played in a highly competitive settings, with good players, is broken and should be banned, i hope i made you understand my points

Believe it is not, yes. Yes I am. If you want anyone to listen to and respect/agree with what you are saying however, your responses need to become more educated and less reactive.

also this, just letting you know, i did read

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

I think the primary issue with kyurem is that there are really only 3 pokemon that effectively deal with it. However, I'd argue that a complex ban preventing kyurem from being run with freeze dry or perhaps even earth power would be just as effective while still allowing kyurem to be run, as removing either of these moves from it would allow significantly more pokemon to counter kyurem which solves the big problem of it having very few true counters.

No. That would complicate things. The one time they did use a complex ban was because Drizzle and Swift Swim was broken (note that this was in gen 5, when weather abilities were permanent; that being said, though, I think that's been reversed into just banning Drizzle).

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

No. That would complicate things. The one time they did use a complex ban was because Drizzle and Swift Swim was broken (note that this was in gen 5, when weather abilities were permanent; that being said, though, I think that's been reversed into just banning Drizzle).

no drizzle and weather is still very much unbanned in gen 5, BDSP OU is the one that banned drizzle

 

[Master Radomus]

Smashburn: All you did was constantly mention that you couldn't understand what I wrote. I stand by what I said earlier. For someone talking circles about contradiction you sure fit the definition well. I'm not here trying to make things personal nor am I trying to argue about how to debate with you. I'll provide my side about Kyurem after I reply to Mimikyu.

Mimikyu: None taken. I know it is much more rare to find good battles in the lower ladders but S&S's meta bored me (when Dynamax was still a thing) so much that I decided to work on game development instead of play pokemon up 'til the gen 4 remakes came out. Be that as it may I still did my research and I still understand how to battle. Perhaps I should have swapped out but in the moment that wasn't important because I had two things in mind: a) Is this pokemon able to stop Kyurem, b) Is Kyurem capable of winning a losing match up after setting up, c) will PP stalling be able to make me win this losing match up? I wasn't concerned with switching because I was aware that Kyurem was no longer needed and my goal was to learn the most about Kyurem and its limits in my battles.

You are only fighting one Kyurem, not all sets of Kyurem. Not knowing which Kyurem it is does add some level of complexity but that's a factor that is simply a part of pokemon and by no means is any one set too oppressive. Kyurem is versatile but in high level play beyond PS that's ideal. This meta is far more limited so I understand the struggle to an extent but though he can be a strong counter meta option he does not do anything that trainers can not naturally adapt to. Kyurem isn't a pokemon that once he comes out you've lost the game. You can easily scout out his set, sit on him, and in some cases naturally rid of him.

As to who asked me to explain myself before, this is the overview of Kyurem with explanation:
Kyurem is a strong option against a lot of stallers and bulky sets because he has a decent enough speed to go before most stallers and sub, he has the ability to dragon dance to increase his speed and set up on pokemon that can normally outlast him, he has the ability to recover which means if your move isn't powerful enough you'll get tanked and be forced to switch out or get PP stalled. He beats situations like with Blissey because he can outlast Blissey and set up against it. He beats Ferrothorn because he can PP stall using sub & roost and if you make the wrong move he can set up against you. This is regarding the physical v of Kyurem though but since specs seem to be something people are worried about congrats now those pokemon I mentioned are a viable counter, including many more, because Specs Kyurem's most unique factor is its bulkiness. Specs Kyurem also clearly ain't running heavy duty boots or leftovers so it won't be stalling against its good match ups and it won't be avoiding hazards. Specs Kyurem is just a normal (though still good) Specs pokemon like any other, just with some bulkiness to consider.

PS If you are going to argue that it's bulkiness allows it to get away with freezing more often which is "oppressive" to the game (which mind you is limited to the Specs variant of Kyurem) then let's catch you a Gurdur, have it help you build a big ol' bridge and do what you do with bridges and get over it. Meanwhile I'll swap into my Volcarona for that clean free dance.

 

[Ruft]

I know it is much more rare to find good battles in the lower ladders but S&S's meta bored me (when Dynamax was still a thing) so much that I decided to work on game development instead of play pokemon up 'til the gen 4 remakes came out. Be that as it may I still did my research and I still understand how to battle.

Alternatively, you could leave this discussion to people who are experienced in the metagame, whose takes are much more informed and of which many have been playing the tier since its inception, have a relatively high ladder rating, and/or play in tournaments, instead of turning this thread into these people correcting your ill-informed takes that you've based on your bottom ladder gameplay and which blatantly show your inexperience.

I advise you to stop posting in this suspect thread if you want to avoid receiving an infraction. Perhaps you should convert your opinions on Kyurem into a vote by going for a more successful ladder run.

 

[qwertyman888]

I was legit about to post a screenshot of his epic and awesome noban reqs account that has 56 GXE, which he cleared w/l on for some reason, but Ruft not only beat me to it, but has actual authority. Also, I'd probably sound as pretentious as Radomus does (oops). So thanks for that.

This has reminded me to get back on my own reqs account...

Anyway, back to Kyurem. I've been trying out Life Orb DD Kyurem with Stone Edge, does anyone else think this is also a strong set? Or does it pale to bulky SubDD? I've tried both and think bulky is better but in certain matchups Offensive can destroy. Still destroyed by Melmetal but most sets are, anyway.

Also, I just feel really bad for Scizor. It has to run Specially Defensive, and its offensive sets are quite hard to fit on teams because its only niche at the moment is check Kyurem. If Kyurem gets banned, it'll probably drop to UU. I just don't really know why people say SpDef is good, either, because to me it just feels like a lump.

 

[Finchinator]

I think the primary issue with kyurem is that there are really only 3 pokemon that effectively deal with it. However, I'd argue that a complex ban preventing kyurem from being run with freeze dry or perhaps even earth power would be just as effective while still allowing kyurem to be run, as removing either of these moves from it would allow significantly more pokemon to counter kyurem which solves the big problem of it having very few true counters.

Absolutely not. If we ban Freeze Dry with Kyurem to preserve Kyurem, what stops us from banning other combinations to undo virtually every other ban and so on? The precedent this sets is bad and the logic is backwards. We do not preserve fragments of Pokemon as a result of suspects.

 

[Lalaya]

Can we stop thinking that complex bans will save the tier when all they do is just complicate issues for no reason except to make a small portion of people happy to keep using their broken ass threat, just neutered a little bit? let go of those pokemon, jesus christ
i dont wanna spend half a day reading a tier banlist just because "x mon can only do y or z otherwise its banned specifically alongside w and v and you can only do coffee with it"
Hell, just think at all the weather complex bans we had just to keep stuff in place

Also please, PLEASE, I know people want to have their say in it and I generally agree with leaving people talk and express their opinion, but don't use 1000 ladder games to prove your reasoning and if you feel they're just falling flat then try to understand WHY, potentially playing more, seeing where you land on ladder, and just hold your footing on higher quality games or watching the vast selection we already have saved on replays - there's no shame in just admitting you're wrong, or just too green for the forum
to be fair its on the front page too, so...

Now can we go back on discussing why the big chicken pressing the light blue button 10 times and winning half the matches by doing literally nothing else should be banned (or not? I guess it depends on how much do you like freezing)

(tbh someone could make a point about freeze being unbalanced as shit? I mean there's a reason nothing directly inflicts Freeze, it's designed to be almost unstoppable after all...? But also, if we're noticing how it's easy to lose a battle for a lucky freeze because Fat Chicken gets so many games and turns to inflict it, it's definitely Fat Chicken the problem, not the freeze chance; that's just a consequence on how easy Fat Chicken can pressure you, even if you build around it while still keeping your team competitive enough to face the OU; as someone else said already, stack steels or die, eventually)

 

[Smashburn]

Smashburn: All you did was constantly mention that you couldn't understand what I wrote. I stand by what I said earlier. For someone talking circles about contradiction you sure fit the definition well. I'm not here trying to make things personal nor am I trying to argue about how to debate with you. I'll provide my side about Kyurem after I reply to Mimikyu.

Master Radomus

Addressing these in order:

You know just maybe if I mention that I can't understand what you wrote, I actually can't understand what you wrote or why you wrote it. It's obvious that I didn't constantly mention that I couldn't understand, I asked once. The most consistent thing I mentioned was that you were being too vague.

Exactly what did you say earlier? Unless I'm understanding this wrong all you did was overstate your opinion without informed and detailed evidences.

This is pretty ironic to say the least. Exactly what have I said or done that was a contradiction in my logic?

I understand you aren't attempting to make it personal. However, you are digging yourself a much deeper hole by saying that you aren't arguing how to debate with me, as you're clearly overstepping this whether you have been aware of it or not.

You are only fighting one Kyurem, not all sets of Kyurem. Not knowing which Kyurem it is does add some level of complexity but that's a factor that is simply a part of pokemon and by no means is any one set too oppressive. Kyurem is versatile but in high level play beyond PS that's ideal. This meta is far more limited so I understand the struggle to an extent but though he can be a strong counter meta option he does not do anything that trainers can not naturally adapt to. Kyurem isn't a pokemon that once he comes out you've lost the game.

You are only thinking of one set when each of its individual variants cause different pressure on teambuilding. You may be fighting only one in a match, but to have a chance at being consistent against all of its variants is impossible if you think this way. Of course each of its sets are individually manageable, however, its wide variety and ability to fit on just about anything prompts teams to be prepared for more than one set. To be clear, I have NOT been vouching for any one set being too strong, but rather Kyurem as a whole because of its variety.

We are only talking about the Smogon community when we discuss these balances. Anything outside of Showdown is a completely different realm of play that doesn't apply here.

Naturally adapt to? Most of the tier already has difficulty being pressured by teambuilding troubles. Kyurem also has tools that allow it to be versatile against "stable" attempts at checking it. Tell me when you have an example of how checks can adapt to Kyurem without detrimenting themselves against the rest of the meta (which Kyurem also does not have a way around).

I agree that it doesn't just shut down games when it comes in, but it becomes a huge threat to teams because of its variety. Multiple sets fit onto teams at almost no repercussion and can cause dangerous midgrounds for already shaky interactions. This isn't saying that it does this a lot as I know from experience, but when it does manage to do this it is can cause huge 50/50s and destabilize methods of checking it.

You can easily scout out his set, sit on him, and in some cases naturally rid of him.

As to who asked me to explain myself before, this is the overview of Kyurem with explanation:

Kyurem is a strong option against a lot of stallers and bulky sets because he has a decent enough speed to go before most stallers and sub, he has the ability to dragon dance to increase his speed and set up on pokemon that can normally outlast him, he has the ability to recover which means if your move isn't powerful enough you'll get tanked and be forced to switch out or get PP stalled. He beats situations like with Blissey because he can outlast Blissey and set up against it. He beats Ferrothorn because he can PP stall using sub & roost and if you make the wrong move he can set up against you. This is regarding the physical v of Kyurem though but...

Most of this is true, though you can't forego that it isn't just the physical variant that takes advantage of these. Classic SubRoost does the same things while having more coverage. It can also bluff SubDD and vise-versa.

...since specs seem to be something people are worried about congrats now those pokemon I mentioned are a viable counter, including many more, because Specs Kyurem's most unique factor is its bulkiness. Specs Kyurem also clearly ain't running heavy duty boots or leftovers so it won't be stalling against its good match ups and it won't be avoiding hazards. Specs Kyurem is just a normal (though still good) Specs pokemon like any other, just with some bulkiness to consider.

Specs Kyurem's most unique factor isn't its bulkiness, although it is significant to it. Its coverage and high SpA stat are what is most unique about it.

What Pokemon you mentioned counter Specs Kyurem? Blissey is situational, not a reliable counter. Ferrothorn has substantial enough bulk that it can take all of Specs Kyurem's coverage from full, but it has no consistent recovery. Both Blissey and Ferrothorn are checks, and this is only relevant after its set has been established.

Specs Kyurem is defined by Choice Specs, so obviously it won't run HDB or Leftovers. The point of Specs is to utilize its coverage and high SpA, so it won't have anything to do with stalling. However, other sets likes Never-Melt Ice bluff its rolls and threaten switches that suspect Kyurem is choice-locked.

PS If you are going to argue that it's bulkiness allows it to get away with freezing more often which is "oppressive" to the game (which mind you is limited to the Specs variant of Kyurem) then let's catch you a Gurdur, have it help you build a big ol' bridge and do what you do with bridges and get over it. Meanwhile I'll swap into my Volcarona for that clean free dance.

It isn't that it can get away with freezing more often, it is how it occurs in relevance to the pressure it creates on teambuilding. Additionally, this isn't just limited to Specs at all, it relates to any set with a chance to freeze.

Relating to freeze specifically, it happens around the board. I once lost a game to a Ninetales-A that froze me for 8 turns against my AV Melmetal.

 

[needle on top]

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 408-482 (89.8 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Kyurem: 384-452 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 152-180 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Kyurem: 342-404 (75.3 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 164-194 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem: 382-450 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 360-426 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Tapu Fini Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 162-192 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

be strong bro, i'm sure you will find a replacement for kyurem in the single team you've been using since dlc2 was released, who has scarf kyurem + av victini + glastrier and sd close combat mew as kyurem soft checks / rkillers

this argument is both in super poor faith and incredibly unrealistic. who is runnng max defense or spdf kyurem, genuinely WHO. discounting omari's opinion and proceeding to throw up a random wall of calcs is not making a point.

 

[airfare]

this argument is both in super poor faith and incredibly unrealistic. who is runnng max defense or spdf kyurem, genuinely WHO. discounting omari's opinion and proceeding to throw up a random wall of calcs is not making a point.

sub variants run huge bulk investment to pressure stall by roosting on things like clef's moonblast, ferro/corv's body press/steel move, and heatran's flash. these fat spreads are quite literally everywhere... the only kyurem still actively running majority offensive spreads are nmi/specs/other subless stuff

this isn't really a wall of random calcs either - kyurem experiences these calcs on a game-by-game basis. bulk investment in this way is exactly how you deal with offensive revenge killers while also enabling the pressure stall of fatter walls over time as they can't break ur sub or outdamage roost. some of the replays in niko's original post show this exact point, if you'd cared to watch them

252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 232 HP / 216+ SpD Kyurem: 210-248 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Ox the Fox]

Hello, I'd like to post my support of banning Kyurem.

The main issue I have with Kyurem is the strain it puts on teambuilding. The NMI set has very few defensive answers, many of which will inevitably be frozen over the course of a longer game. Spdf corvi and clef both seem like great answers, but the reality is they're forced to switch into Kyurem too many times throughout a game and are likely to be frozen. Due to this, a lot of teams are forced to rely on "out-offensing" it to beat it, but this is very unreliable. Take Dragapult for instance - on paper it seems like a great way to revenge Kyurem, but if they have misty terrain support or are a speed boosting variant it can no longer revenge kill it.

Speaking of speed boosting variants, spdf dragon dance is the set that has really pushed Kyurem over the edge for me. This set is able to PP stall and beat so many mons that it shouldn't be able to beat, such as Clefable, Ferrothorn and Heatran. It's also way too easy to pair it with mons like flame body Heatran and rocky helmet Ferrothorn to punish physical attackers that are almost forced to attack it. This set, along with the NMI set, which restricts teambuilding too much, are why I believe Kyurem is broken.

 

[Finchinator]

Voting is up.

Thanks to everyone for discussing!

 

[Finchinator]

Kyurem is gone: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...s-round-11-voting.3694804/page-6#post-9055692