Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Fish Out of Water

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Also, has anybody tried to use Rotom-W against it? Idk if it would work or not since I haven't tried it myself, but I think it would be a very good check that we know from past gens can potentially do well in OU.
I genuinely forgot I had an account because I very rarely hop on these forums but heres a few calcs for you regarding Rotom-W:

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 182-215 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rotom is 2HKOd so it cannot switch in as the given EV spread makes it slower than Vish.

If we elect to give Rotom the minimum amount of speed EVs to outrun Band Vish (Adamant ofc):
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Rotom-Wash: 210-247 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yes Rotom does outspeed Dracovish in this instance (168 Speed EVs) and can apply pressure with Will-o-wisp or a predictive Volt Switch, but it now is even poorer at switching in. With prior chip, it can be OHKOd and its only recovery methods are wishpasses, lefties and pain split.

In gen 7 for instance, will-o-wisp PDef rotom only needed to outspeed M-Mawile so it could heaviy invest in defence. Dracovish is quicker and thus Rotom is generally pretty useless against it

I won't get reqs because I'm shocking at gen 8 but for those voting not ban, please do reconsider. Teambuilder options you take for granted in Gen 8 all have underlying tones of trying to prevent vish. With vish gone, teambuilding will open up more.
 
You absolute fools. Dracovish is the last thing preventing the absolute reign of terror of Toxapex and Ferrothorn. Ban him only if you want these monsters to go completely unchecked.
Maybe if people didnt have to base 50% of their team around stopping dracovish they could use other pokemon. Sub+CM HDB chandelure has a very decent matchup vs pex/ferro (idk if this is a particularly viable set it just sprung to mind) but cant really be run right now because it invites in clef, who teleports to vish, who then 6-0s you.
 

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You absolute fools. Dracovish is the last thing preventing the absolute reign of terror of Toxapex and Ferrothorn. Ban him only if you want these monsters to go completely unchecked.
Comments like this don't contribute to this thread at all. Besides its simply misguided. In the absence of Dracovish, new breakers might rise which might completely nullify the two mons. LO + NP Hydreigon is relevant even now with Dracovish running wild, powerful Pokemon such as Kyurem, Aegislash, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, and Zeraora already exists and sees a fair amount of usage, and if Dracovish departs I am pretty sure some of the neglected Pokemon such as Togekiss, Gengar and Chandelure will increase in usage.
 
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ScalchopFren

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A minor nitpick, but I personally don't see the arguments "Toxapex/Ferrothorn really wants to be running SpDef" or "A mediocre Pokémon like Seismitoed is only popular because of Dracovish" as good pro-ban arguments. Mediocre Pokémon and sets can become good because of the Pokémon in the metagame. It doesn't matter if Seismitoed or physically defensive Ferrothorn and Toxapex are not the most optimal Pokémon or sets. If Fiscious Rend and Dracovish becomes a special attacker so Ferrothorn and Pex can run their "optimal" sets, does that magically make Dracovish less overcentralizing even if those things are good regardless of Dracovish?
First and last post I will be making here because I don't want to stress myself out by reading this thread more than I already have.

Quite frankly, if anyone is phrasing the Pex/Ferro argument as them WANTING to run SpDef, they should stop doing that immediately. That is not remotely the case. It's not necessarily true that they WANT to be SpDef, it's that they have the FREEDOM to be SpDef.

I'm going to divide the next part of this post into two sections: one about what the meta would be like without Vish, and one about what it would be like (and currently is like) with Vish.

Without Vish: If (when) Vish leaves, Ferro and Pex will have significantly more freedom in their EV spreads than they currently do. As has been pointed out by previous posts, Ferro and Pex both traditionally ran SpDef sets in the last generation, both of which could have their merits in the current generation. With full SpDef investment, both of these mons become to Dragapult what SpDef Clef is to it currently: a bulky target that even Modest Spell Tag Pult will struggle to break, provided each still has its Lefties or Black Sludge. Here are some calcs comparing the rolls for PhysDef vs SpDef variants of the mons in question (assuming it's Thunder Wave Pult for both, so burn damage doesn't play into it).

Pex
252+ SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Ferro
252+ SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-241 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specs Aegi is also less of a factor if Pex is allowed to run SpDef, as Specs Shadow Ball cannot 3HKO and it's able to Recover the damage off. The same goes for Ferro, minus the Recover part (I'm too lazy to post calcs for this one so you can verify it for yourself if you want). And though this is probably not the most consistent answer, SpDef Pex is guaranteed to live one +2 Rotom-H Discharge from full (barring a crit ofc) and can use that as an attempt to either chip with Scald or cripple it with some kind of utility move (i.e. Toxic or Knock Off if it has them). In the current meta that last sentence might seem completely irrelevant given how common Baneful Bunker is over Toxic or Knock at the moment, but I hope everyone remembers WHY Bunker is so common (hint: it's the subject of this entire thread).

Now, do Ferro and Pex HAVE to run full SpDef in this hypothetical Vishless meta? Absolutely not. In fact, there are still situations where PhysDef could be useful on these mons. For example: aside from Clef balance, one of the most common playstyles at the moment is sand, and of course the star of that show is Excadrill. Pex is obviously not much of a consideration when dealing with Drill, but Ferro, as we all know, learns Body Press. And if Ferro goes full SpDef, Drill only takes around 60-70% from Body Press. Still a 2HKO, clearly, but it pales in comparison to the 80-94% Drill takes from a full PhysDef Ferro. The important thing here, though, is that they can CHOOSE. The things that each spread would help beat have other switchins. They don't HAVE to run one spread; they can go PhysDef OR SpDef. Hell, maybe they can even run mixed defense spreads. No one really does that anymore so I don't have a set on hand, but there's probably some way to make that work without Vish here.

Now going on to the next segment...

With Vish: I don't think I have to really say much at this point. We all see how the meta currently is with Vish; there are approximately 3 worthwhile mons that can even avoid getting 2HKOd by Fishious Rend, and approximately 0 of them can 2HKO Vish in return. All three of those mons run full PhysDef investment almost exclusively because of Vish, and even then Ferro is the only one that can't be 2HKOd by one of Vish's non-Rend moves (not that that matters much, since even with Lefties it can almost be 2HKOd by Banded Rend and has no recovery to mitigate that). I could echo the points of so many people, but I think I'll choose to only echo McCoolDude, who has without question my favorite post in this entire thread.
Ferrothorn has to invest this way to survive a specific, resisted, physical attack 2HKO consistently, from full. Pex has to invest the same way and dedicate a moveslot specifically to it. This is taking the literal best possible answer to something (a high-defense Pokemon that resists the move) and requiring additional investment to meet a bare minimum acceptible level.
If a mon with BASE 131 DEFENSE (aka Ferro) is literally required to be PhysDef in order to avoid being 2HKOd by a specific, resisted physical attack from full -- and if that specific physical attack is only learned by one (usable) mon -- is that not a sign of a mon being unhealthy? I think it is.

TL;DR: Without Vish present, Ferro and Pex have the freedom to choose different EV spreads, rather than being forced to run max PhysDef to only just barely protect themselves against one specific, incredibly team-restricting mon.

And since this response has mostly been responding to the Ferro/Pex part of the OP, I'll take a little time here to talk about the Seismitoad part too. Tacotaco is right in one regard -- mediocre mons CAN become good for the current meta because of other popular mons. That's how we ended up having Flareon on the SSOU Viability Rankings for like a month(?) earlier into the meta. Back when Clef's most common set was 3 attacks + Life Orb, Flareon was ranked (albeit only around the C tier range so maybe not so good after all) due to its ability to devour every move LO Clef ran as well as its ability to Wish pass. It was also somewhat bolstered by its ability to check the Specs Pult that were so common at that time, despite doing jack shit in return. Then, once the dust cleared from our eyes and we remembered that Rotom-H exists, Flareon dropped off the face of the Earth and hasn't been heard from since. The difference between Flareon and Seismitoad's situations, however, is that there were other options where Flareon was concerned. In contrast, looking at Toad through the lens of the Vish meta, there is literally nothing else that offers what it does right now. It's one of very few usable Rend immunities, and it's the ONLY one capable of running Rocks, Knock Off, AND Toxic. Look at it without the Vish context, though, and the reasons to use it over Hippowdon are basically nonexistent. Hippo is bulkier, can also set up Rocks, can remove setup sweepers with Whirlwind, AND has reliable recovery.

Trust me, I have no ill will towards Toad whatsoever. As a matter of fact, for my own personal reasons, Seismitoad is actually my second favorite mon. Period. But when you look at the physical attackers in OU bar Vish -- Drill, Bisharp, Terrakion, Conkeldurr, hell even Crawdaunt with Knock Off -- and compare how much Toad takes from them to how much Hippo takes, it's not really much of a contest.

I apologize for making this post so long, but as I said at the start I don't really wanna contribute much to this thread. I just wanted to make one post and be done with it, since reading some of the comments here has already raised my blood pressure a bit too high. Goodbye and goodnight, my friends; it is now time for me to mute this thread.
 
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Look at it without the Vish context, though, and the reasons to use it over Hippowdon are basically nonexistent. Hippo is bulkier, can also set up Rocks, can remove setup sweepers with Whirlwind, AND has reliable recovery.
Just to add to this, anyone remember Kommo-O? Yeah that mon that's A+ on the VR that literally no-one uses because its primary role is as a Rock setter that can actually keep Rocks up. But it loses to LORD VISH so most people don't bother (despite it being nutty good).
 

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Just to add to this, anyone remember Kommo-O? Yeah that mon that's A+ on the VR that literally no-one uses because its primary role is as a Rock setter that can actually keep Rocks up. But it loses to LORD VISH so most people don't bother (despite it being nutty good).
To be fair, there are a number of people who run Kommo-o like this (I believe FlamingVictini popularized it):

Kommo-o @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Taunt / Body Press

This Kommo-o set doesn't match up all that bad against Dracovish, as the Speed investment allows it to outspeed Adamant Choice Band Dracovish and take it out with Draco Meteor.
 
First and last post I will be making here because I don't want to stress myself out by reading this thread more than I already have.

Quite frankly, if anyone is phrasing the Pex/Ferro argument as them WANTING to run SpDef, they should stop doing that immediately. That is not remotely the case. It's not necessarily true that they WANT to be SpDef, it's that they have the FREEDOM to be SpDef.

I'm going to divide the next part of this post into two sections: one about what the meta would be like without Vish, and one about what it would be like (and currently is like) with Vish.

Without Vish: If (when) Vish leaves, Ferro and Pex will have significantly more freedom in their EV spreads than they currently do. As has been pointed out by previous posts, Ferro and Pex both traditionally ran SpDef sets in the last generation, both of which could have their merits in the current generation. With full SpDef investment, both of these mons become to Dragapult what SpDef Clef is to it currently: a bulky target that even Modest Spell Tag Pult will struggle to break, provided each still has its Lefties or Black Sludge. Here are some calcs comparing the rolls for PhysDef vs SpDef variants of the mons in question (assuming it's Thunder Wave Pult for both, so burn damage doesn't play into it).

Pex
252+ SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Ferro
252+ SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-241 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specs Aegi is also less of a factor if Pex is allowed to run SpDef, as Specs Shadow Ball cannot 3HKO and it's able to Recover the damage off. The same goes for Ferro (I'm too lazy to post calcs for this one so you can verify it for yourself if you want). And though this is probably not the most consistent answer, SpDef Pex is guaranteed to live one +2 Rotom-H Discharge from full (barring a crit ofc) and can use that as an attempt to either chip with Scald or cripple it with some kind of utility move (i.e. Toxic or Knock Off if it has them). In the current meta that last sentence might seem completely irrelevant given how common Baneful Bunker is over Toxic or Knock at the moment, but I hope everyone remembers WHY Bunker is so common (hint: it's the subject of this entire thread).

Now, do Ferro and Pex HAVE to run full SpDef in this hypothetical Vishless meta? Absolutely not. In fact, there are still situations where PhysDef could be useful on these mons. For example: aside from Clef balance, one of the most common playstyles at the moment is sand, and of course the star of that show is Excadrill. Pex is obviously not much of a consideration when dealing with Drill, but Ferro, as we all know, learns Body Press. And if Ferro goes full SpDef, Drill only takes around 60-70% from Body Press. Still a 2HKO, clearly, but it pales in comparison to the 80-94% Drill takes from a full PhysDef Ferro. The important thing here, though, is that they can CHOOSE. The things that each spread would help beat have other switchins. They don't HAVE to run one spread; they can go PhysDef OR SpDef. Hell, maybe they can even run mixed defense spreads. No one really does that anymore so I don't have a set on hand, but there's probably some way to make that work without Vish here.

Now going on to the next segment...

With Vish: I don't think I have to really say much at this point. We all see how the meta currently is with Vish; there are approximately 3 worthwhile mons that can even avoid getting 2HKOd by Fishious Rend, and approximately 0 of them can 2HKO Vish in return. All three of those mons run full PhysDef investment almost exclusively because of Vish, and even then Ferro is the only one that can't be 2HKOd by one of Vish's non-Rend moves (not that that matters much, since even with Lefties it can almost be 2HKOd by Banded Rend and has no recovery to mitigate that). I could echo the points of so many people, but I think I'll choose to only echo McCoolDude, who has without question my favorite post in this entire thread.

If a mon with BASE 131 DEFENSE (aka Ferro) is literally required to be PhysDef in order to avoid being 2HKOd by a specific, resisted physical attack from full -- and if that specific physical attack is only learned by one (usable) mon -- is that not a sign of a mon being unhealthy? I think it is.

TL;DR: Without Vish present, Ferro and Pex have the freedom to choose different EV spreads, rather than being forced to run max PhysDef to only just barely protect themselves against one specific, incredibly team-restricting mon.

And since this response has mostly been responding to the Ferro/Pex part of the OP, I'll take a little time here to talk about the Seismitoad part too. Tacotaco is right in one regard -- mediocre mons CAN become good for the current meta because of other popular mons. That's how we ended up having Flareon on the SSOU Viability Rankings for like a month(?) earlier into the meta. Back when Clef's most common set was 3 attacks + Life Orb, Flareon was ranked (albeit only around the C tier range so maybe not so good after all) due to its ability to devour every move LO Clef ran as well as its ability to Wish pass. It was also somewhat bolstered by its ability to check the Specs Pult that were so common at that time, despite doing jack shit in return. Then, once the dust cleared from our eyes and we remembered that Rotom-H exists, Flareon dropped off the face of the Earth and hasn't been heard from since. The difference between Flareon and Seismitoad's situations, however, is that there were other options where Flareon was concerned. In contrast, looking at Toad through the lens of the Vish meta, there is literally nothing else that offers what it does right now. It's one of very few usable Rend immunities, and it's the ONLY one capable of running Rocks, Knock Off, AND Toxic. Look at it without the Vish context, though, and the reasons to use it over Hippowdon are basically nonexistent. Hippo is bulkier, can also set up Rocks, can remove setup sweepers with Whirlwind, AND has reliable recovery.

Trust me, I have no ill will towards Toad whatsoever. As a matter of fact, for my own personal reasons, Seismitoad is actually my second favorite mon. Period. But when you look at the physical attackers in OU bar Vish -- Drill, Bisharp, Terrakion, Conkeldurr, hell even Crawdaunt with Knock Off -- and compare how much Toad takes from them to how much Hippo takes, it's not really much of a contest.

I apologize for making this post so long, but as I said at the start I don't really wanna contribute much to this thread. I just wanted to make one post and be done with it, since reading some of the comments here has already raised my blood pressure a bit too high. Goodbye and goodnight, my friends; it is now time for me to mute this thread.
I agree with your statements, but one thing that I should have been more specific with is how people don't talk about where do we draw the line on when it's ok for mediocre Pokémon or sets to be popular because of a certain threat? That's why I don't like the arguments "FerroPex are forced to run physical sets" or "Seismitoed is only good because of Dracovish." It's best to address the banworthiness of Dracovish regardless of how good those sets and Pokémon are, since even if those are actually good sets, it doesn't change the fact that Dracovish is still overcentralizing.

For example, Zygarde in gen 7 had plenty of popular checks that are used even before its ban like Landorus, Tangrowth, Bulu, and Mega Scizor. That didn't stop it from being banned since Zygarde has ways to bypass those checks. If there's a Pokémon who's only switchins are Clefable, Rotom-H, and Corviknight and requires the use of those three to not be steamrolled, that Pokémon is still overcentralizing.

You could basically just look at this using two contradictory statements. If one is true, the other one should be false.

1. "People are forced to run PhysDef FerroPex and Seismitoed. Those sets are mediocre if Dracovish is gone. Therefore, Dracovish is overcentralizing." If we take this statement to be true, then the next argumet should be false:
2. "People are forced to run PhysDef FerroPex and Seismitoed. Those sets are good even if Dracovish is gone. Therefore, Dracovish is overcentralizing." This is still true though. Even if Dracovish forces the use of meta sets and Pokémon, it would still be overcentralizing.

Both mediocre and meta sets won't matter if the Pokémon is still overcentralizing. That's why I don't see PhysDef, Baneful Bunker/Protect, or Seismioted being mediocre as good arguments. That's basically what my post is trying to say.

Edit: I also think that Vish forcing the use of Toed over Hippo is also irrelevant. I'm using the Zygarde ban as a parallel again. Objectively speaking, Ferrothorn is better than Tangrowth in a metagame without Zygarde, yet Tangrowth was used over Ferrothorn because of its Ground resist and can break Zygarde's sub. Despite this, no one argues "Zygarde discourages Ferrothorn" as a reason for banning it. The Toed and Hippo example also reflects this, although in a clearer way. Again, where do we draw the line? The effects of a Pokémons ban (or stay) from the metagame isn't really a good pro or anti-ban argument. That's why it's best to focus mostly on the main argument. Saying "Dracovish discourges the use walls like Hippo and forces the use of 2-3 Pokémon" is much valid than "Dracovish encourages the use of Toed, which discourages the use of Hippo who is objectively better without Vish."
 
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To be fair, there are a number of people who run Kommo-o like this (I believe FlamingVictini popularized it):

Kommo-o @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Taunt / Body Press

This Kommo-o set doesn't match up all that bad against Dracovish, as the Speed investment allows it to outspeed Adamant Choice Band Dracovish and take it out with Draco Meteor.
Fair enough. Kommo is one of those mons with a hell of a nutty movepool. That's why it's A+.
You could basically just look at this using two contradictory statements. If one is true, the other one should be false.

1. "People are forced to run PhysDef FerroPex and Seismitoed. Those sets are mediocre if Dracovish is gone. Therefore, Dracovish is overcentralizing." If we take this statement to be true, then the next argumet should be false:
The problem with your argument is you're being too black and white about it (either/or fallacy). Statement 1 may be false, those sets aren't necessarily bad. You run PhysDef or SpD Ferro/Pex depending on what your team needs. The issue with Dracovish is it takes that option away. You have to run PhysDef regardless of if your team would prefer a SpD set. It constrains teambuilding by taking away options in the teambuilder.
 
You absolute fools. Dracovish is the last thing preventing the absolute reign of terror of Toxapex and Ferrothorn. Ban him only if you want these monsters to go completely unchecked.
Yeah it´s not like LO Clef literally beats those two mons, or any mon with decent coverage.


Also, has anybody tried to use Rotom-W against it? Idk if it would work or not since I haven't tried it myself, but I think it would be a very good check that we know from past gens can potentially do well in OU.
The problem with Vish is that even mons that it hits for .5 damage aren´t close to being a soft check, including Rotom wash.

Scarf:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Band:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 182-215 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Fair enough. Kommo is one of those mons with a hell of a nutty movepool. That's why it's A+.

The problem with your argument is you're being too black and white about it (either/or fallacy). Statement 1 may be false, those sets aren't necessarily bad. You run PhysDef or SpD Ferro/Pex depending on what your team needs. The issue with Dracovish is it takes that option away. You have to run PhysDef regardless of if your team would prefer a SpD set. It constrains teambuilding by taking away options in the teambuilder.
I guess it's because I see using the PhyDef, SpDef, and mixed sets as different Pokémon. I don't necessarily see it as Dracovish taking the SpDef and mixed option away. Every meta would have an ideal set that covers as many as possible or the stongest (in this case PhysDef for Vish), but you can still customize your team to cover more specifc threats. You can run SpDef or mixed, but it means you need to run a more niche check like Milotic or Gastrodon. Either way, Dracovish would still force a few checks to not be steamrolled. But I don't see it as taking away a choice (at least for the cases of using other sets, Dracovish would still restrict teambuilding since you are transferring your Dracovish check from one Pokémon to another).

Anyway, I still don't understand how my statements are wrong. PhysDef are mediocre in the context of a Dracovish-less meta (hypothetically speaking), but you can always find a niche for PhysDef sets like many C-Ranked Pokémon as long as your team needs them. That's what my first statement means in the first place.
 
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A minor nitpick, but I personally don't see the arguments "Toxapex/Ferrothorn really wants to be running SpDef" or "A mediocre Pokémon like Seismitoed is only popular because of Dracovish" as good pro-ban arguments. Mediocre Pokémon and sets can become good because of the Pokémon in the metagame. It doesn't matter if Seismitoed or physically defensive Ferrothorn and Toxapex are not the most optimal Pokémon or sets. If Fiscious Rend and Dracovish becomes a special attacker so Ferrothorn and Pex can run their "optimal" sets, does that magically make Dracovish less overcentralizing even if those things are good regardless of Dracovish?
I think you may be misinterpreting the true scope of those arguments. While yes, niche Pokemon can become more viable due to the presence of strong Pokemon, it becomes an issue when one Pokemon alone warrants really wonky stuff. In my previous post, I highlighted how in Gen 6 we resorted to running bulky Chesnaught to fully counter the popular Aegislash sets. Chesnaught was I believe RU at best prior to that development, and it was a cool and fun Pokemon because it set Spikes, provided a Water resist, and answered Aegi; however, Chesnaught was RU because it was really weak against virtually everything else in the meta and was easy to exploit.

Seismotoad is essentially the same thing here. He's on your squads because he's immune to Fishious Rend and he can set rocks on top of that. He's pretty weak outside of being in the way of Volt Switch from Rotom-H, but he's also easy to Toxic and make pretty useless. The presence of Seismotoad in the top 4 most used Pokemon is a symptom of a much bigger issue. If you look at OU squads right now, essentially every team is Clef+*insert favorite Dracovish answer(s) here*+Corv+3 other mons (probably Rotom-H and Dragapult included). It's a super stale meta because of the centralization of Dracovish.

You absolute fools. Dracovish is the last thing preventing the absolute reign of terror of Toxapex and Ferrothorn. Ban him only if you want these monsters to go completely unchecked.
I'm going to assume you're not trolling, because mods are generally pretty clear about that not flying here; thus, I'll address this too. Smogon policy has always been to remove unhealthy elements even if they answer other unhealthy elements. If FerroPex cores become that unhealthy, we'll answer them too. For what it's worth, you're also very wrong about that, as it's really not that hard to break--FerroPex has been around for a while now, and I used to use them in Stall back in the day; nothing is stopping stall breakers from doing exactly what they used to do. I don't want to take away from the discussion at hand anymore, so I'll leave it at that.
 
You absolute fools. Dracovish is the last thing preventing the absolute reign of terror of Toxapex and Ferrothorn. Ban him only if you want these monsters to go completely unchecked.
Thing is, if you ban fish, you allow balance to use other pokemon, wich in term makes offense a lot more varied. The only reason those are used as intesively is BECAUSE of fish. Remove it, and you start seeing a more diverse metagame
 
So I actually started laddering! This is my best replay so far, which showcases just how strong Vish is and just how bad I am at this game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1119479240

Obv low ladder, obv low skill, obv I suck. But important to note would be turn 5, where I get Perish Song up against their Pex and proceed to send out LORD VISH. At this point he either loses his Toxapex, which I can tell at this point is his main pivot, or he takes a Rend to the face. He chooses to go into Thorn, expecting to tank. But I'm Band, and his Thorn eats dirt. That Thorn could have done a lot to get around some of the stuff I had later, but it got switched in on Band and I got the right rolls. The game later turned into a farce because I got the right flinch at the right time, but the damage was already done.

That's how strong Vish is. It opens up stuff that it has no right opening up. My quest to ladder will likely end in tragedy, but if I make it? Solid ban from me.
 
Dracovish is a problem for OU. It monopolizes the teambuilding aspect. Yeah, if you got a water absorber you are fine (if you literally have some working brain cells), however I personally feel tired of playing five mons + one with water absorb. I could have flinched a little bit if Dracovish had less amount of bulk, as he survives a lot of hard hits.

With this said, if Dracovish gets thrown into oblivion, no other stallbreakers should be banned (of course, if they are not that centralizing / broken), for the sake of competitive singles pokemon.

I'm a little sad about giving up Vaporeon, but I personally am going to vote Ban.
 
Got reqs earlier as "OUTZ shit meta" using webs. Webs have been surprisingly good on the suspect ladder; maybe it's because laddering is easier to do with offense than the balance squads common in tournaments, maybe it's because people get tilted by it, but it was very consistent in my experience. I went 35-5, with at least 3/5 of those losses being from opponents with really obscure shit. I'm talking Vaporeon + Noivern cores level of obscure shit.

I'm too tired to re-write stuff about the team so here's a link to my other post about it that goes into detail: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ion-submission—dracovish.3660737/post-8476430

Also I'm 100% voting Ban
 
Dracovish is a problem for OU. It monopolizes the teambuilding aspect. Yeah, if you got a water absorber you are fine (if you literally have some working brain cells), however I personally feel tired of playing five mons + one with water absorb. I could have flinched a little bit if Dracovish had less amount of bulk, as he survives a lot of hard hits.

With this said, if Dracovish gets thrown into oblivion, no other stallbreakers should be banned (of course, if they are not that centralizing / broken), for the sake of competitive singles pokemon.

I'm a little sad about giving up Vaporeon, but I personally am going to vote Ban.
Dracovish's typing in Water/Dragon does not give it that many weaknesses; I'm pretty sure it's just Dragon and Fairy (Freeze-Dry as well). And a typing like that is an absolute bastard to break down.
 
Dracovish is very clearly a Pokemon ban worthy in the metagame.The fact that a previously NU Pokemon like Seismitoad is now supporting 35% usage shows that the metagame is not healthy.Dracovish limits teambuilding so much as even if you want to use fun teams on ladder you nearly require something like Seismitoad so some kid doesnt 6-0 you with a Scarf Dracovish.Dracovish also has a good about of opportunities to switch in with its respectable 90/100/80 defenses and fantastic typing with just two weaknesses.Lategame if your Seismitoad or very bulky water resist like Ferrothorn(which cant even take that many Choice Band Rends) it can just sweep without a hitch.Its just the fact that Seismitoad is 31% just really shows the issue with Dracovishs Dominance,like this is very much abnormal.Kill it,just like GSC NU Raichu



Also sidenote I love how if Dracovish does get banned then newer players will look at the ubers tierlist and see the two ugly ass abominations known as Dracovish and G-Daramnitan
 
Dracovish is very clearly a Pokemon ban worthy in the metagame.The fact that a previously NU Pokemon like Seismitoad is now supporting 35% usage shows that the metagame is not healthy.Dracovish limits teambuilding so much as even if you want to use fun teams on ladder you nearly require something like Seismitoad so some kid doesnt 6-0 you with a Scarf Dracovish.Dracovish also has a good about of opportunities to switch in with its respectable 90/100/80 defenses and fantastic typing with just two weaknesses.Lategame if your Seismitoad or very bulky water resist like Ferrothorn(which cant even take that many Choice Band Rends) it can just sweep without a hitch.Its just the fact that Seismitoad is 31% just really shows the issue with Dracovishs Dominance,like this is very much abnormal.Kill it,just like GSC NU Raichu



Also sidenote I love how if Dracovish does get banned then newer players will look at the ubers tierlist and see the two ugly ass abominations known as Dracovish and G-Daramnitan
The whole situation with Seismitoad kinda reminds me of Ditto's usage when Dynamax came around. Although definitely on a smaller scale, Seismitoad usage reaching 35% probably should hint at what the hell Dracovish is causing.
 

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1. If GameFreak nerfs Dracovish, is it still worth banning? Or would it be unbanned if it was decided to be banned? By nerf, I mean take down the base power of Fishious Rend, not sure any other possibilities.
This has never happened before as we never had DLCs before, Pokemon usually get nerfed or buffed when we switch to the next generation. Some examples are Gengar Levitate > Cursed Body, and Mimikyu's Disguise. We don't know if Dracovish will get nerfed in this DLC and if it does it can be retested after DLC drops. The point of this Suspect is to evaluate Dracovish in the current metagame.

2. When comes DLC, either Isle of Armor or Crown Tundra, and more national-pokedex Pokemon comes in, is it still worth banning Dracovish? More national pokedex pokemon could mean more Water-immunity 'mons, and more powerful Pokemon that resist Water. This includes Pokemon that 4x resist water also.
I partially mentioned this in the quote above. As I said, the point of this suspect test is to evaluate Dracovish in the current metagame, not the future ones, and it is kind of impossible to make assumptions about what will happen post DLC. If somehow Dracovish is deemed manageable in the post DLC metagame I am pretty sure the council will consider retesting the Pokemon.
 

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I didn't read through the whole thread, so apologies if someone brought these up before, but 2 things.

1. If GameFreak nerfs Dracovish, is it still worth banning? Or would it be unbanned if it was decided to be banned? By nerf, I mean take down the base power of Fishious Rend, not sure any other possibilities.

2. When comes DLC, either Isle of Armor or Crown Tundra, and more national-pokedex Pokemon comes in, is it still worth banning Dracovish? More national pokedex pokemon could mean more Water-immunity 'mons, and more powerful Pokemon that resist Water. This includes Pokemon that 4x resist water also.

Edit: I should clarify, Crown Tundra is a bit far away, so if Isle of Armor turns out bringing in a lot more Pokemon that resist / 4x resist water, would that change considerations?
If new checks to Dracovish are released in the future, we can look into unbanning it in the future, this isn't the place to worry about that. And no, the potential future shouldn't be taken into consideration for the decision now. There's always a "what if?", but they're always based on complete theorymon. Please make sure your arguments are relevant to the current metagame.
 
Just here to quickly chime in, first time making/trying to get Reqs, went 36-4 on the ladder yesterday. However as a long standing player (been playing competitively since late gen 4) I think I can say that Dracovish is one of the most centralizing mons I've ever seen. The fact that Max defense Ferro or Pex cant even take two hits from banded Rend in rain is reason enough for this mon to be banned. I also don't really see how arguing that banning Dracovish will it turn allow Pex and stall to run wild is a valid point. Stall and semistall simply do not have the tools that they did in previous generations to be an extremely consistent and effective strategy. That being said, stall can still be effective if used by a very experienced player, but even so there are still a multitude of of offensive answers for Ferro-Pex cores in the meta. The fact of the matter is that because Dracovish forces you essentially to run a set of two to three options just to potentially soft counter it is unhelathy for the meta. Not running a water absorber such as Seismitoad puts you in an extreme disadvantage when going up against Dracovish and ultimately limits creativity and teambuilding. For those reasons alone, being that some of the bulkiest mons in the game in Pex and Ferro cant even avoid a 2hko from a resisted hit and the fact that your essentially forced to run a water absorber on almost every team are more then enough reasons to suspect and ultimately ban Dracovish from the ou meta.
 
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I think people worry too much about having to wall it on a team, I'm voting to ban it to because it makes some pokemon seen a lot in ou even though they aren't ou pokemon (gastro, seismitoad) but seriously, its scarf set is pretty bad and band can easily be outsped by most ou offensive mons. It isn't hard at all to beat a team with dracovish but I don't like how it forces water absorb mons or pex/ferro/kommo, on every team.
 
I am concerned about the precedent that banning Dracovish will set for future bans. The main argument made by the council about banning Dracovish is that this Pokemon has few viable checks/counters, and therefore limits teambuilding. I would like to ask my peers the question: What prevents this same logic from being applied to other A/A+ wall breakers in the metagame? I will provide some examples of wall breakers that I have both used and believe have the same number, if not less viable check/counters compared to Dracovish.

Banded Excadrill has proved to be a very powerful wall breaker on sand teams, since many of the ground resists in the tier are flying types that do not resist Iron Head. This is the set that I am referring to in particular:
drill.png

Excadrill @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

The only viable counters to this set are Corviknight and Ferrothorn. Hippowdon can also be considered a counter if it is running Leftovers. However, if Hippowdon is not running Leftovers, Excadrill has around a 30% chance to 2HKO it after stealth rock damage:

252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-210 (42.3 - 50%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Every other viable Pokemon in the metagame is either OHKO’d or 2HKO’d by the combination of Earthquake, Iron Head, and Rock Slide. If Dracovish is banned for restricting team building, what is preventing Excadrill for being banned for the same reason?

Banded Terrakion is another Pokemon that is able to break the majority of walls in the tier thanks to its fantastic Rock/Fighting stab. For this example, I will be focusing on Adamant Banded Terrakion:

terrak.png

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack

This set is both able to bluff a Jolly nature and 2HKO almost every viable defensive wall in the metagame. The only wall that occasionally does not get 2HKO’d by a move on this set is Hippowdon. However, if we are assuming this Hippowdon runs Leftovers, it has around a 60% chance to be 2HKO’d without Stealth Rock and a 98% with Stealth Rock:

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I would also like to note that both specially-defensive Clefable and standard Sylveon, some of the most common fighting resists in the metagame, are 2HKO’d by Close Combat:

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 207-243 (52.5 - 61.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Every viable Pokemon in the metagame, that is not Hippowdon, is consistently 2HKO’d by either Close Combat, Stone Edge, or Earthquake. Once again, I would like to ask my peers why Terrakion should not be banned for restricting team building if Dracovish is banned using the same logic.

The last wall-breaker I will address is Guts Conkeldurr. In this example, I will address the Close Combat variant:

conk.png

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Facade

This 2HKO’s every viable wall in the metagame. The only Pokemon that can counter this set is Neutralizing Gas Weezing-Galar, and this Pokemon is currently C- rank on the viability rankings. Toxapex can also be considered a check to this set, but is almost guaranteed to be 2HKO’d by Facade after Stealth Rock:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Corviknight can out-speed Conkeldurr and retaliate with a Brave Bird, but can only OHKO Condeldurr if Conkeldurr has -1 defense from a Close Combat and Corviknight has at least 80 Speed evs:

0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 362-428 (103.1 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Therefore, I will only consider a Corviknight with at least 80 speed evs and Brave Bird as a check to Conkeldurr.

If one wants to have a defensive wall on their team that counters Conkeldurr, they have to run Weezing-Galar. Why would Conkeldurr be exempt from a ban for restricting teambuilding with a counter in the C- tier, a check in the A+ tier (before rocks), and occasionally a check in the S- tier when Dracovish was banned for restricting teambuilding when it has 1 counter and 2 checks in the A+ tier?

In conclusion, I fear that banning Dracovish will allow for many wall breakers in the A+ and A viability rankings to be banned by the logic: there are not enough check/counters for these wall breakers, and therefore they restrict team building.
 
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