Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Fish Out of Water

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I have already stated my opinion so I won't do so again, but I would like to present this:

Shiinotic
Moonblast
Giga Drain
Strength Sap
Protect

Effect Spore, Bold Nature, Leftovers, 188 HP, 236 Def, 80 SpAtk, 4 Speed, Max EVs

I tried this set out in three battles with Vish, only one of which I actually got to use it, I switched it in against a Fishious Rend, it did around 70%, which let me know it was banded instead of scarfed, and effect spore paralyzed it, in the end, he switched Dracovish out when in was under 5% and paralyzed, basically removing it.

Now this can be used as a pro or anti ban argument, on one hand it's a counter that can help contain Dracovish, on the other hand, it's SHIINOTIC. IN WHAT WORLD COULD SHIINOTIC HAVE A NICHE IN OU?

I had a lot of trouble getting the exact numbers for the set, even with max special attack (with neutral nature) it will never have a 50% chance to OHKO.

This set has so many variables that you can adapt for what your team needs, I tried to EV it so it could take two hits and severely weaken it, or even kill if effect spore came in clutch. Really it's up to you. The biggest variable is whether you go with Leftovers or Rocky Helmet, Leftovers allows for a guaranteed hit on Dracovish (barring a crit), while Rocky Helmet allows for Shiinotic to kill after helmet damage. I think it's pretty much mandatory to have a +defense nature on this, so I didn't even try outside of +defense. What it lowers is up to you, you can lower attack, or you can lower speeds and counter trick room teams, I chose -Attack, in fact, I even threw in a few speed EV's just in case other base 30's would make an appearance, I know there aren't many, but it's not impossible to see Galarian Corsola or Snorlax.

This set also does surprisingly well in battles without Dracovish, ok, well isn't the right word, it's more like not completely dead weight. Strength Sap allows for it to switch into physical attackers (with correct prediction) and weaken them while healing damage that was taken beforehand.

Some calculations (With presented set unless otherwise stated)
Scarf Dracovish
48.7-57.4% for every fishious rend, with leftovers and protect afterwards, 36.2-44.9% lost if max damage done, only 30% chance to kill, 0% chance when Shiinotic is at 58% or higher, in other words ridiculously low chance to kill (barring crits)

Band Dracovish
73-85.7%, 60.5-73.2% after leftovers and protect, guaranteed 2HKO, which is bad, but let's be honest, that power is absurd, so everything has a hard time killing it.

Shiinotic Moonblast, 77-91.3%, guaranteed 2HKO, but remember, I didn't put that much into Special Attack so:

252 SpAtk EVs Shiinotic Moonblast 90-106.8%, 43.8% chance to OHKO (With +SpAtk nature is 93.8% chance to OHKO, but this isn't about OHKOing, it's about removing Dracovish as a threat from the battle)

0 SpAtk EVs Shiinotic Moonblast 69.6-82.6% 2HKO, run for maximum bulk

The most pivotal calculation: 51% chance for Effect Spore to take effect The implications for this are huge

Poison - Either kills it at the end of poisoned turn, or makes it dead on arrival assuming my chosen EV's, probably the smallest out of the three.
Paralysis - Chance for Shiinotic to kill if paralysis works out, and essentially guarantees everything will outspeed it, which is huge.
Sleep - Puts Dracovish out of commission for several turns, either forcing a switch, or a free strength sap and another move to kill for Shiinotic

Not to mention if it takes 3 hits the odds increase to 65.7%

To finish this off, I know it's not a 100% check, I know it won't always do what's intended, but the only reason I wrote this was because this set can be adapted in so many ways, so I think unpredictability will be the reason this becomes viable in any amount. Finally, I don't think this will be good, it's just an idea.
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 188 HP / 236+ Def Shiinotic: 150-177 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Nuff said. Also, I have no idea why you slash Helmet when it needs the Leftovers recovery to be able to switch into Scarf Vish, and needs to be close to full health too.
And the fact it always gets 2HKOed by Banded Vish... Not to mention:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 188 HP / 236+ Def Shiinotic in Rain: 225-265 (73 - 86%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (same calc applies to Choice Band).
Even assuming max Def:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 147-174 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic in Rain: 221-261 (68.2 - 80.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
If you're going to sac a mon to deal with Dracovish, I recommend Destiny Bond so you're only giving up a moveslot on a mon rather than a whole mon.
And remember fellow theorymonners, calc WITH ROCKS UP. That is all.
 
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 188 HP / 236+ Def Shiinotic: 150-177 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Nuff said. Also, I have no idea why you slash Helmet when it needs the Leftovers recovery to be able to switch into Scarf Vish, and needs to be close to full health too.
And the fact it always gets 2HKOed by Banded Vish... Not to mention:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 188 HP / 236+ Def Shiinotic in Rain: 225-265 (73 - 86%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (same calc applies to Choice Band).
Even assuming max Def:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 147-174 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic in Rain: 221-261 (68.2 - 80.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
If you're going to sac a mon to deal with Dracovish, I recommend Destiny Bond so you're only giving up a moveslot on a mon rather than a whole mon.
And remember fellow theorymonners, calc WITH ROCKS UP. That is all.
Before you start reading, I absolutely agree with this post. I will admit, rocks are a problem for for Shiinotic in this scenario, and I already stated I don't actually think this will be viable, but there are a few things the poster forgot.

1. There's this one pokemon, I don't know if you've heard of it or not, it's called Corviknight, and it's really good at using defog, there are also several other defoggers that can get rid of rocks. These pokemon are good with or without Dracovish in OU, so they are not another useless slot.

2. Rocks are less common in this generation, Heavy Duty Boots and a whole bunch of defoggers made it so only a few pokemon are actually running rocks Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Kommo-o, Mew, and Seismitoad are the only pokemon in OU who run stealth rocks, several of these have asterisks next to them since either rocks aren't their main purpose, or they can't keep the rocks up well, Kommo-o is probably the best rocks setter, but with Dracovish, it's now running a different set to counter it a lot.

3. Rocks can also be used against Dracovish. I don't feel like doing more calculations but judging from my previous ones, with some more special attack EV's and rocks, Shiinotic can OHKO as well.

Also the rain calculation can also be used against Dracovish. Shiinotic has Rain Dish as well.

Once again let me reiterate the point that was made by the poster is 100% valid, and I don't disagree with the points that were made, it's just Shiinotic isn't exactly helpless in this scenario.
 
Before you start reading, I absolutely agree with this post. I will admit, rocks are a problem for for Shiinotic in this scenario, and I already stated I don't actually think this will be viable, but there are a few things the poster forgot.

1. There's this one pokemon, I don't know if you've heard of it or not, it's called Corviknight, and it's really good at using defog, there are also several other defoggers that can get rid of rocks. These pokemon are good with or without Dracovish in OU, so they are not another useless slot.

2. Rocks are less common in this generation, Heavy Duty Boots and a whole bunch of defoggers made it so only a few pokemon are actually running rocks Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Kommo-o, Mew, and Seismitoad are the only pokemon in OU who run stealth rocks, several of these have asterisks next to them since either rocks aren't their main purpose, or they can't keep the rocks up well, Kommo-o is probably the best rocks setter, but with Dracovish, it's now running a different set to counter it a lot.

3. Rocks can also be used against Dracovish. I don't feel like doing more calculations but judging from my previous ones, with some more special attack EV's and rocks, Shiinotic can OHKO as well.

Also the rain calculation can also be used against Dracovish. Shiinotic has Rain Dish as well.

Once again let me reiterate the point that was made by the poster is 100% valid, and I don't disagree with the points that were made, it's just Shiinotic isn't exactly helpless in this scenario.
You’re banking on a 30% chance for your ability to trigger, and a further chance to sleep or paralyze off the ability to even have the chance of not getting 2hkod by even non-band rend. Relying on a large number of variables and a gimmick set doesn’t really help the argument against a Vish ban.
 
crobatoh I think your ignoring the fact that you have to:

1. Keep Shiinotic at full health in order to answer vish
2. You can't switch in
3. Rely on RNG to cripple vish (effect spore)
4. Use a traditionally subpar mon to check a single mon in the metagame

Note this is the same arguement used concerning a multitude of dracovishes answers. Toxapex and ferro must be kept at full health to survive 2 rends, offensive checks such as hydra and pult must come in through sacking or extremely aggressive doubles, RNG plays a bigger role then you may think (with rocks up, a majority of vishes answers risk 2hkos), and subpar mons such as toad and vaporeon are on the vr primarily due to their ability to combat the being we know as mr. vish. Quite frankly, in the situation that the tier was resorted to using a trash mon such as shiinotic to counter a single mon in the tier (I will say shiinotic is a fun zera counter and keldeo check, but thats about it) quite frankly shows the determental impact vish has.

Also id vote BAN if i wasnt a lazy bitch if you didnt get that already
 
1. There's this one pokemon, I don't know if you've heard of it or not, it's called Corviknight, and it's really good at using defog, there are also several other defoggers that can get rid of rocks. These pokemon are good with or without Dracovish in OU, so they are not another useless slot.
There's this one move, I'm not sure if you've heard of it or not, it's called Taunt, and every half-decent offensive Rock setter has it. Lol. Just because Corviknight exists doesn't mean rocks won't ever go up. Corv gets phazed/punished for Roosting by Hippo and Seeded by Ferro as well. In case you haven't noticed, Rocks still go up in most games, suicide leads are still things, and Corviknight is not immortal.
2. Rocks are less common in this generation, Heavy Duty Boots and a whole bunch of defoggers made it so only a few pokemon are actually running rocks Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Kommo-o, Mew, and Seismitoad are the only pokemon in OU who run stealth rocks, several of these have asterisks next to them since either rocks aren't their main purpose, or they can't keep the rocks up well, Kommo-o is probably the best rocks setter, but with Dracovish, it's now running a different set to counter it a lot.
Uhhh. That's a ton of mons running Rocks. And one of them is on every team. Every team in OU has a Rock setter still, Boots or no Boots (the Kommo-O set you reference is Meteor/Flame/Taunt/ROCKS). (Not to mention Ferro and Mew often run Spikes, and Pex Tspikes are things too).
3. Rocks can also be used against Dracovish. I don't feel like doing more calculations but judging from my previous ones, with some more special attack EV's and rocks, Shiinotic can OHKO as well.
Sorry to say this, but under no realistic situation is Shiinotic going to even get off a move not called Protect. Perhaps if it gets a free switch-in while on full health and no hazards up at all it can attack. In which case you should be Strength Sapping instead.
Also the rain calculation can also be used against Dracovish. Shiinotic has Rain Dish as well.
The rain is just because I was too lazy to switch to Choice Band (the most common Vish varient). It's the same calc. And Rain Dish relies on Shiinotic living a hit AND not running Effect Spore (which was meant to be the point of this).
Once again let me reiterate the point that was made by the poster is 100% valid, and I don't disagree with the points that were made, it's just Shiinotic isn't exactly helpless in this scenario.
Sorry, hate to say it, it is helpless. Like literally everything else that isn't immune to Rend.
 

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Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but shouldn't be Fishious Rend banned, instead of Dracovish as a whole?
Due to tiering policy, pokemon are typically banned unless there are multiple abusers of the same move, ability, or item that can be used to justify a ban of that thing specifically.

In Vish's case, Arctovish also gets Fisheous rend and is barely relevant. It's only the addition of strong jaw, a better defensive typing, and a higher speed tier, that Dracovish becomes broken. This indicates that the issue is Dracovish, not Fisheous Rend itself.
 
Due to tiering policy, pokemon are typically banned unless there are multiple abusers of the same move, ability, or item that can be used to justify a ban of that thing specifically.

In Vish's case, Arctovish also gets Fisheous rend and is barely relevant. It's only the addition of strong jaw, a better defensive typing, and a higher speed tier, that Dracovish becomes broken. This indicates that the issue is Dracovish, not Fisheous Rend itself.
Ohhh, i see, thanks for making that clear
 
Due to tiering policy, pokemon are typically banned unless there are multiple abusers of the same move, ability, or item that can be used to justify a ban of that thing specifically.

In Vish's case, Arctovish also gets Fisheous rend and is barely relevant. It's only the addition of strong jaw, a better defensive typing, and a higher speed tier, that Dracovish becomes broken. This indicates that the issue is Dracovish, not Fisheous Rend itself.
I’ve got to agree with this, and I’ve like to add a few extra points:

1. Dracovish has powerful coverage outside of Fishious Rend and is also boosted by Strong Jaw: Crunch can potentially OHKO Dragapult even with Choice Scarf on the switch. Psychic Fangs hits Conk while also providing good matchup against HO.
2. There are few Pokémon that have access to STAB that can OHKO Dracovish: the Dragons, etc
 
I qualified for the voting without using vish and actually using HO, I had zero pokemon that could survive a fisheos rend YET I never lost to it.
I’m my opinion it takes skill to play around it but it CAN be done and it didn’t feel OP, it’s just too slow, I don’t think it should be banned from my personal experience.
Also once you scout the set it’s really easy to play around.

Usually it goes two routes: against offensive teams you can't switch in vish without sacking a mon(unless they play like shit) against defensive team they always have an answer...
If you run balance/bulky stuff you probably have seismitoad anyway and give a me break about only being able to switch in safely once or twice because if you need more than that you're not a good player.

Anyway I think it doesn't polarize as much in my opinion because everyone is playing zeraora and dragapult which are really good against it, seismitoad isn't 100%dead weight if your opponent doesn't have vish either, also toxapex get 2hko after rocks true but honesly against bandvish the only thing that suffers is stall but if you run stall you need to pack an answer...

let's just make a real world example I'll hop into a game with rain dracovish banded and see what I can do:

SugarBob's team:Pelipper / Ferrothorn / Mandibuzz / Seismitoad / Dracovish / Mantine
Henryatom's team:Zeraora / Cinderace / Keldeo-Resolute / Gengar / Dragapult / Hawlucha

I switched in after sacking ferro on cinderace and got 2 kills cinderace and zeraora ONLY because I had previously killed dragapult, but you see?
literally no use of it unless you play against really bad opponents low in ladder like 1600...
 
I qualified for the voting without using vish and actually using HO, I had zero pokemon that could survive a fisheos rend YET I never lost to it.
I’m my opinion it takes skill to play around it but it CAN be done and it didn’t feel OP, it’s just too slow, I don’t think it should be banned from my personal experience.
Also once you scout the set it’s really easy to play around.

Usually it goes two routes: against offensive teams you can't switch in vish without sacking a mon(unless they play like shit) against defensive team they always have an answer...
If you run balance/bulky stuff you probably have seismitoad anyway and give a me break about only being able to switch in safely once or twice because if you need more than that you're not a good player.

Anyway I think it doesn't polarize as much in my opinion because everyone is playing zeraora and dragapult which are really good against it, seismitoad isn't 100%dead weight if your opponent doesn't have vish either, also toxapex get 2hko after rocks true but honesly against bandvish the only thing that suffers is stall but if you run stall you need to pack an answer...

let's just make a real world example I'll hop into a game with rain dracovish banded and see what I can do:

SugarBob's team:Pelipper / Ferrothorn / Mandibuzz / Seismitoad / Dracovish / Mantine
Henryatom's team:Zeraora / Cinderace / Keldeo-Resolute / Gengar / Dragapult / Hawlucha

I switched in after sacking ferro on cinderace and got 2 kills cinderace and zeraora ONLY because I had previously killed dragapult, but you see?
literally no use of it unless you play against really bad opponents low in ladder like 1600...
Uhhh. Banded Dracovish is bad against HO. The fact it got any kills at all in spite of you having 5 offensive answers for it (and two for Scarf) and your entire team being faster than it is hilarious. Yes you can counterteam Dracovish. No, that does not make it any less banworthy. Also, Scarf Vish (which is much better on rain) literally wins in the scenario you describe so... Be grateful it did turn out to be Banded.
 
My opinion on banning dracovish is mixed. One side thinks its overbearingly broken as the sheer power of fishious rend+stab+strong jaw is horrifying specially with a choice band though the other part thinks there are some checks to stop it and i strongly prefer the latter.
My reasoning:-
1. It can be chipped easily and due to lack of recovery it is more on a ticking timer in the match example rocky helmet users
2. Its is slow. Dracovish's base 75 speed hinders it a lot. Choice scarf could augment its mediocre speed but it would still be slower than other common choice scarf users like hydreigon ,togekiss and is outspeed and revenge killed by zerora and dragapult and this list grows further with the choice band set
3.Status ailments specifically burn kill its offensive powers a bit.

This are my opinion on why I think dracovish should not be banned from ou.
 
Uhhh. Banded Dracovish is bad against HO. The fact it got any kills at all in spite of you having 5 offensive answers for it (and two for Scarf) and your entire team being faster than it is hilarious. Yes you can counterteam Dracovish. No, that does not make it any less banworthy. Also, Scarf Vish (which is much better on rain) literally wins in the scenario you describe so... Be grateful it did turn out to be Banded.
I used the dracovish , I outplayed the shit out of the kid because I can but that doesn't mean dracovish is broken...

I got two kills because he was bad and I'm good not because dracovish is broken that's what I want to say, if you want to promote less skillfull play ban it so everyone can spam their braindead toxapex corviknight etc.. to any offensive answer in the game, the fact that it's more difficult to defend makes the game better in my opinion also preventing old school stall from making the game annoying.

I personally don't use it much because of the speed and being very limited in sets but I learned to play around it as everyone should've by now, if you want a pokemon that 100% counters it just so you can feel safer than there are 5/6 more pokemon that should be banned like zeraora dragapult clefable, if we're going to promote slow and defensive gameplay for no reason.
 
I used the dracovish , I outplayed the shit out of the kid because I can but that doesn't mean dracovish is broken...

I got two kills because he was bad and I'm good not because dracovish is broken that's what I want to say, if you want to promote less skillfull play ban it so everyone can spam their braindead toxapex corviknight etc.. to any offensive answer in the game, the fact that it's more difficult to defend makes the game better in my opinion also preventing old school stall from making the game annoying.

I personally don't use it much because of the speed and being very limited in sets but I learned to play around it as everyone should've by now, if you want a pokemon that 100% counters it just so you can feel safer than there are 5/6 more pokemon that should be banned like zeraora dragapult clefable, if we're going to promote slow and defensive gameplay for no reason.
Ok, so let me summarise what you are saying here:
You think this suspect is down to the fact that the top-level players who choose what gets suspected are somehow incapable of "outplaying" Dracovish. And you hate stall. Ok. To address your first point, see my previous post here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ound-4-fish-out-of-water.3664521/post-8475075
I handily compiled every appearance of Dracovish in OUPL weeks 1-7. No Surprise: It wins a lot. Also No Suprise: There is no such thing as "playing around" Dracovish. You either dedicate at least one teamslot, possibly more, to hard countering it with a Water Immunity and Outrage absorber (Fairy), or you are saccing something each time it enters play.
To address your second point... Are you kidding? There is literally no way to play stall consistently ATM. Every stall team that doesn't just accept the Vish 6-0 has to contend with Nasty Plot Hydreigon, Hex Dragapult, Bulk Up Zeraora, every single Aegislash set, Bulk Up Corviknight, Nasty Plot Rotom-H, Life Orb Clefable, Conk, Offensive Taunt Kommo-O, SD Excadrill... That's just the S- and A+ ranks. Not to mention the entire of UUBL. And you are worried about not being able to break stall??
Edit: Also I just realised that you are saying that a mon trading 2 for 1 in its worst matchup somehow makes it not broken.
1. It can be chipped easily and due to lack of recovery it is more on a ticking timer in the match example rocky helmet users
2. Its is slow. Dracovish's base 75 speed hinders it a lot. Choice scarf could augment its mediocre speed but it would still be slower than other common choice scarf users like hydreigon ,togekiss and is outspeed and revenge killed by zerora and dragapult and this list grows further with the choice band set
3.Status ailments specifically burn kill its offensive powers a bit.
1. Said Rocky Helmet users literally have to sac themselves just to kill Vish. Even if it does go down it often takes at least two mons with it.
2. Base 75 speed is fast for Dexit meta, and Scarf Vish still outspeeds everything not called Dragapult or Zeraora (neither of wholm nor any viable scarfer can switch in). Dracovish could be revenge killed by the entire game and it would still be broken. For the thousandth time this thread, the fact revenge killing Dracovish is remotely hard in the slightest is absurd, because revenge killing it does not stop it doing its job. It is a breaker, not a sweeper.
3. There are 0 Pokemon that can switch into and status Dracovish without dying immediately or just being immune to Rend (which forces it out). And there are about 3 that can even sac themselves to status it. If Vish gets statused, either its owner has misplayed, they no longer required it, or the opponent has sacced a mon to do it.
no I'm not worried but 90% of the points I saw made where you can't defend band draco with anything if he predicts right...
That is correct. Band Dracovish at worst 2HKOs all switch-ins assuming perfect prediction. Beating Dracovish is not impossible (see those OUPL replays). No-one is saying you can't beat it. What we are saying is it takes an unreasonable amount of preparation in the teambuilder to do so, and even then the counterplay is not consistent enough so that no matter how well you play you can still lose to a 50/50 Rend/Outrage prediction from Dracovish (again, see those OUPL replays).
 
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Ok, so let me summarise what you are saying here:
You think this suspect is down to the fact that the top-level players who choose what gets suspected are somehow incapable of "outplaying" Dracovish. And you hate stall. Ok. To address your first point, see my previous post here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ound-4-fish-out-of-water.3664521/post-8475075
I handily compiled every appearance of Dracovish in OUPL weeks 1-7. No Surprise: It wins a lot. Also No Suprise: There is no such thing as "playing around" Dracovish. You either dedicate at least one teamslot, possibly more, to hard countering it with a Water Immunity and Outrage absorber (Fairy), or you are saccing something each time it enters play.
To address your second point... Are you kidding? There is literally no way to play stall consistently ATM. Every stall team that doesn't just accept the Vish 6-0 has to contend with Nasty Plot Hydreigon, Hex Dragapult, Bulk Up Zeraora, every single Aegislash set, Bulk Up Corviknight, Nasty Plot Rotom-H, Life Orb Clefable, Conk, Offensive Taunt Kommo-O, SD Excadrill... That's just the S- and A+ ranks. Not to mention the entire of UUBL. And you are worried about not being able to break stall??
no I'm not worried but 90% of the points I saw made where you can't defend band draco with anything if he predicts right...
 
Honestly, I think the whole Dracovish discussion boils down to these few things:
- Dracovish is a predictable and has a dedicated set of pretty reliable counters such as Seismitoad, Gastrodon, BB Toxapex and plethora of offensive counterplay as well.
- However, it pretty much mandates the use of the affirmentioned group of mons, which are not actually that great in this metagame, but they still se a ton of play just because having a water immunity makes playing around it much easier. Because of all that, even if you have a mon with water immunity it can very easily be a liability if not facing Vish and even when facing it these checks can be chipped and softened so that Vish's otherwise weak coverage moves can deal with it.
All in all, while it definitely isn't the most uncountrable thing in the world, it just constraints teambuilding way too much and greatly favors the user of it, as it is very easy to use. If the the fish gets banned, the metagame will ultimately become much more diverse, my only concern would be that these standard defensive backbones for balance teams could become increasingly hard to deal with, but with this should be dealt with later on. Thanks for reading!
 
It's completely dumbfounding to me how people still suggest that banning dracovish will make breaking stall too hard to deal with. To those I have to ask: Do you actually play the tier? I have not seen one viable stall since the dawn of the metagame. I actually tried building one pre-home and it kinda worked but not really, still got top 200 fwiw. It's becoming ridicolous how much stall is getting hated for not being played once since gen8 began. And anyway, even if that were true (and it's clearly not), stall could be nerfed afterwards with a ban on its supposedly strongest mon that makes the playstyle get out of line.
How is this even an argument?
 
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I'd like to put my 2 cents on the debate - pro-ban by the way.

1. Just because Dracovish has answers does not make it any less ridiculous - Everything has answers to them, even stuff that have been solidly Ubers for generations like Kyogres have can be hard countered by OU mons.

2. Answers to Dracovish are limited to defensive checks or revenge killers. Having revenge killers is irrelevant because they are only switching in when Dracovish has already gotten a kill so you are going 1-for-1 at worst. However, note that there is basically no offensive checks that can switch directly into Dracovish, and that means you can almost never take the offensive momentum against the team with Dracovish once it comes in. The true switchins to Dracovish is limited to Seismitoad (and arguably Toxapex and Ferrothorn), but the Dracovish player is still favoured at that position since the opponent is still forced to play reactively. Dracovish illustrates the idea that a team is as strong as its weakest link. It doesn't matter if your team has 5 answers to Dracovish; even if you have just a single member that gives Dracovish the opportunity to come in like Hippowdon, it forces you to play reactively and perfectly until something dies.

Unlike other wallbreakers in the tier, who need to predict switch-ins, Dracovish does not have to do so, since Seismitoad is pretty much the only Pokemon that you want to hit with something other than Rend. It's like trying to parry a metal sword with a wooden one - you either succeed and do a scratch back, or fail and get sliced (which is obviously unfair).
 
1. Said Rocky Helmet users literally have to sac themselves just to kill Vish. Even if it does go down it often takes at least two mons with it.
2. Base 75 speed is fast for Dexit meta, and Scarf Vish still outspeeds everything not called Dragapult or Zeraora (neither of wholm nor any viable scarfer can switch in). Dracovish could be revenge killed by the entire game and it would still be broken. For the thousandth time this thread, the fact revenge killing Dracovish is remotely hard in the slightest is absurd, because revenge killing it does not stop it doing its job. It is a breaker, not a sweeper.
3. There are 0 Pokemon that can switch into and status Dracovish without dying immediately or just being immune to Rend (which forces it out). And there are about 3 that can even sac themselves to status it. If Vish gets statused, either its owner has misplayed, they no longer required it, or the opponent has sacced a mon to do it.
New players who have less experience would struggle against dracovish but smart players could easily toy with it specially as it is prediction reliant.
Rocky helmet users like ferrothorn chip dracovish a lot and it is easily leech seeded or thunder waved.
As I already said other choice scarf users hydreigon and togekiss can ohko with draco meteor or monblast and can eaisly switch into fishious rend or outrage while dragapult would or without scarf can ohko.
Last thing i forgot was dracovish 4x weakness to the move freeze dry making it fear ice types like kyurem and alolan ninetailes.

I have no problem with your opinion i am just explaining my opinion.
 
New players who have less experience would struggle against dracovish but smart players could easily toy with it specially as it is prediction reliant.
That's a good meme.

No but seriously, Fishious Rend is so stupid powerful, and the few answers to Fishious Rend so passive, that Dracovish rarely needs to predict. It just clicks Rend, and one of four things happen.
  1. Vish dies because you stayed in on a revenge killer like an idiot.
  2. Something on the opponent's team immediately dies. (This is what happens to most things Rend hits)
  3. The opponent's Pokemon takes about 50%. The few things that can pull this off now need to somehow get back to good health by the time the fish comes back, and aren't usually very good at punishing whatever the Vish user switched into.
  4. The opponent's Pokemon absorbs the attack, and you're now faced with the incredibly easy task of switching into a Seismitoad, because that thing can't do much besides absorb Rends.
 
New players who have less experience would struggle against dracovish but smart players could easily toy with it specially as it is prediction reliant.
Rocky helmet users like ferrothorn chip dracovish a lot and it is easily leech seeded or thunder waved.
As I already said other choice scarf users hydreigon and togekiss can ohko with draco meteor or monblast and can eaisly switch into fishious rend or outrage while dragapult would or without scarf can ohko.
Last thing i forgot was dracovish 4x weakness to the move freeze dry making it fear ice types like kyurem and alolan ninetailes.

I have no problem with your opinion i am just explaining my opinion.
Removing leftovers from ferrothorn makes 2hko with stealth rocks on ferro's side significantly easier
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

To the point where running rocky helmet (subpar item on a tanky mon with no reliable recovery) would actively hurt your chances against dracovish, and probably even do less damage all things considered.
 
first thing sorry for my english but i use translator. After playing a lot in the OU 8 metagame, my vote is definitely BAN DRACOVISH. Obviously it doesn't have reliable counters, and it centralizes the game to such an extent that it forces you to carry seismitoad when there are other Rocks options much better than seismi. strong Jaw + fishious rend is absurd, and is even affecting team building, being much more limited by dracovish. I think it should be banned for now, as is the metagame. When the dlcs come out and there are more Pokes, maybe it can be handled better, I don't know. Definitely after playing Much my vote is BAN DRACOVISH.
 
New players who have less experience would struggle against dracovish but smart players could easily toy with it specially as it is prediction reliant.
Rocky helmet users like ferrothorn chip dracovish a lot and it is easily leech seeded or thunder waved.
As I already said other choice scarf users hydreigon and togekiss can ohko with draco meteor or monblast and can eaisly switch into fishious rend or outrage while dragapult would or without scarf can ohko.
Last thing i forgot was dracovish 4x weakness to the move freeze dry making it fear ice types like kyurem and alolan ninetailes.

I have no problem with your opinion i am just explaining my opinion.
Dracovish is literally anything but prediction reliant. Unless the opponent has Seismitoad, you just press Fishous Rend on anything, and something is dying. And even if they do have Seismitoad, you can press Fishous Rend anyway. At worst you are just facing a Seismitoad who you can easily switch out of, and at best you get a free kill.

Also, please define what you mean by "easily switch in"
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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