Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Fireball

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after gettin reqs gon say I'm votin no ban

i like cind in a meta full of toxapex blissey toxapex clef toxapex corv toxapex toxapex toxapex rocky helmet mon #2. swear that's all mafuckas be usin these days

each set I've noticed had its own problems vs fat. band they just go helmet pex/hippo every time and scout the move. life orb gets fucked by residual so easier for stall to beat and offense to pick it off w/ priority. if its boots its got power issues. obv all the sets are top tier (a+/s rank shit fasho) but nothin breakin imo. it'll just be the tier defining offensive threat. this mon can also be very unreliable due to all of its moves feelin 70% accurate

ladderin I saw a lot of cool picks like rhyperior, arcanine, rotom-w, slowbro, scarf urshifus, more rain, more physdef hippos etc etc had enough of this stale ass meta. if we drop cind im tellin u there will be more color and flavor in the tier. we already have a mon called urshifu that yall were complaining about in the beginning then stopped talkin about. this will be the same situation tbh

all what I said was prolly really controversial but ion give af bro. vote ban if u wanna keep usin and seein fat shit 24/7. pce out
I think it's funny that you say Cinderace should be legal in this meta because there's too many fat teams, then you go on to talk about how the best way to handle it is by adding fat stuff to your team that Cinderace can't handle.

The end result of Cinderace in the meta is probably just going to be fat teams that can more easily blanket check its multiple sets.
 
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I’m planning on getting reqs, but whether I do or not, I am very PRO-Ban. Cinderace has several different sets and a ton of viable options. LO, HDB and Band are the main items and for moves you have Pyro Ball, Gunk Shot, HJK, Sucker, U-turn, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, Electro Ball, Bulk Up, Taunt, Court Change, and Work Up. Admittedly, some of those are super niche, but the point is that because they exist, they can murder you because you weren’t expecting it. If forces you to build and play like he has all of those options and restricts the tier to the point that the only way you reliably beat Cinderace is by sponging hits and attempting to status it/RNG it to death. I’ve seen and played games where Cinderace just wipes away half a team and then the cleaners finish up. Insane speed tier, absurd power, cancerous amounts of customization, utility, and versatility, topped of with the ability to murder anything in the meta with the right moves. And saying that he can’t do everything at once is stupid, because if you can’t handle Primarina with your selection of coverage, just bring a Rillaboom on your team and the problem is solved. TLDR; broken mon, I won’t miss you in two weeks.
 

ShootingStarmie

Bulletproof
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Just got reqs, so thought I'd share my team and opinion
https://pokepast.es/67db742bbfef61f5 scarf gar catches some people on surprise, plus its a failsafe vs scarf toge, pult, and other fast stuff. hatterene is basically an auto loss, and watch out for mandibuzz
Now, onto Cinderace. This bunny is busted. Insane coverage, incredibly hard to wear down thanks to Boots, is incredibly unpredictable, and can somewhat pick and choose its own counters based on its coverage. It's coverage is so good in fact, that I didn't see a single Court Change Cinderace, despite being a stupidly good move in its own right. It's speed tier is insanely good, and its easily the best offensive pivot in the game. Cinderace is also very good against any archetype, and you're pretty much forced to run a bulky water if you're playing anything but offense, making it restricting and over centralizing.

I'm looking forward to seeing some unban arguments, cuz Ace is pretty busted imo

:psywoke:
 
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IPF

sundown
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Needed to get reqs as early as possible because of some commitments next week so I ended up using ABR Aegi stall for my whole run as I found it the most consistent, only change being Baneful Bunker>Scald on Pex to make the Cinderace matchup more manageable.
Screenshot 2020-09-18 at 9.02.43 AM.png

Cinder.png
Now as far as my experience laddering goes, I didn't face many Cinderaces during my run and honestly found Urshifu much more common and problematic to deal with but I suppose that's a discussion for another thread so I'll keep this one on topic. I was firmly of the belief that Cinder should remain banned going into this suspect test and my time on the ladder hasn't shown me enough to change my opinion on the matter, when the time comes I will be voting BAN.

So the most common set you see being run on Cinder is the one that really exposed it as being busted during WCoP, the 4 attacks pivot set
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn
- Gunk Shot
Note how the nature is Adamant, which hits 337 speed and doesn't really miss out on relevant speed tiers with the exception of maybe Terrakion and Gengar, so Cinder in most cases can afford to lose some speed for immediate power. The entire point of the set is to apply immense pressure on bulky teams while also pivoting around with U-Turn and gaining momentum, a job that Cinder does unparalleled. Think Zeraora but on steroids. Alternative options on this set includes Sucker Punch which makes things really awkward when your method of revenge killing is Dragapult, and also functions as a nice revenge killing option. It is somewhat prediction reliant, but if you nail the opposing Toxapex on the switch, or maybe burn the Hippowdon with Pyro Ball, Cinder becomes a massive threat in the following turns. Additionally, a Gunk Shot poison on Hippo or Mandi makes it even more unbearable to play against.
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%)
252+ Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 127-151 (30.2 - 35.9%)
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 150-177 (35.4 - 41.8%)
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%)
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 106-126 (24.8 - 29.5%)
Pex and Hippo are generally regarded as the best possible answers to Cinder with Rocky Helmet to discourage U-Turns and the ability to threaten back with a Knock Off, Toxic or EQ. I've also added the U-Turn calcs against other potential checks to show that Cinder still does a significant chunk, which when coupled with hazards chip racks up quickly and can snowball very easily.

Heavy Duty Boots is really what makes Cinderace what it is, the inability to chip it down without reliance on sand or Rocky Helmet makes this mon a complete nuisance for offense to deal with, no hazards chip and a surprising amount of bulk make it a frustration to revenge kill at times as well. Its ability to always keep momentum up and pair extremely well with other VoltTurn mons such as Zeraora, Rotom-Heat and Urshifu make it a nightmare in most matchups.
68 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%)
252+ SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%)
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 186-220 (61.7 - 73%)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 250-294 (83 - 97.6%)
The 3 mons listed above are pretty much the only relevant mons that outspeed Cinder unboosted, and barring a specs Dragapult, none are able to land a clean OHKO.

Other sets but far lesser used include Bulk Up variants and perhaps even a deviant Choice Band set, imo neither are as effective as the pivot set but both can pose massive threats in their own rights.

All of this is basically to say that I believe Cinder is just too strong for this current metagame and doesn't have a place in it at the moment. Of course DLC2 shakes up everything and I wish the council good luck in trying to sort that mess out. Hope this encourages some proper discourse and not just the usual one liners '-'.
(Thanks Finchinator for proofreading this)
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
You are saying that people have asked us to resuspect both Dracovish and Melmetal after their respective tests, and we have told them no, we already suspected them? Can you cite anything at all that shows this is even remotely close to true?
Although the person you are responding to is overly confrontational and conspiratorial, I inquired about this one month ago on discord and got a similar response to what they describe.

Regardless of the outcome of this test, Cinderace and Melmetal should be promptly quick-unbanned when DLC 2 is released. DLC releases in SS are major metagame shifts that are almost akin to a new generation, and they should NOT inherit the banlist from the previous metagame.

065A54F1-A498-4AFD-B61D-BEB58A6181BB.jpeg
 
Although the person you are responding to is overly confrontational and conspiratorial, I inquired about this one month ago on discord and got a similar response to what they describe.

Regardless of the outcome of this test, Cinderace and Melmetal should be promptly quick-unbanned when DLC 2 is released. DLC releases in SS are major metagame shifts that are almost akin to a new generation, and they should NOT inherit the banlist from the previous metagame.
What you say is completely right. In a perfect world non-uber level suspects deserve to be re-tested each gen (except Dugtrio, fuck Dugtrio), and due to DLC 8th gen is going to be broken up into a bunch of mini gens. Finch has made it clear, and rightfully so, that the council shouldn't have unlimited quickbanning ability. But what happens when we have ~3-4 months between DLCs and are forced to test a dozen or so suspects? Anyone who's looked at the movepool and re-released Pokemon leaks knows there's going to be some ridiculous Pokemon coming in a few weeks. Aura Sphere / Mystic Fire Lati twins, Tapus with terrain moves (and Close Combat + Play Rough), all the ultra beasts, Blaziken, and Genesect on top of existing suspects / re-suspects like Melmetal, Urshifu, Cinderace and so on. Once that drops how long until another DLC? There's a bit of evidence suggesting a 2021 D/P remake or even just another round of DLC to finish off the remaining unreleased mons.

I guess what I'm saying is the suspect test methods Smogon uses are fair and effective but they are very, very slow. In a world where Gamefreak's business model is now to release DLC we might not be able to keep up at the current rate as instead of a 3rd version game with ~5 new forms / Pokemon we get 100+. I know this isn't the right place to mention this but there doesn't actually seem to be anywhere to talk about it. Perhaps moving forward we need a way to ban obviously unhealthy and unpopular Pokemon faster without relying on a non-democratic council quickban or a slow community suspect test.

Again, I know this isn't the place to talk about it and I know Finch said not to (but he also broke his own rule, so there!) but this is an issue that's been slowly growing. I hope the council is aware of this problem and talking about possible solutions otherwise I'm afraid we're going to get buried by DLC suspects and never catch up long enough to have a good meta.

Also I know I broke the rules but ban Cinderace, not me.

*also unban Cinderace post DLC 2 and suspect test it
 
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Eo Ut Mortus

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Although the person you are responding to is overly confrontational and conspiratorial, I inquired about this one month ago on discord and got a similar response to what they describe.

Regardless of the outcome of this test, Cinderace and Melmetal should be promptly quick-unbanned when DLC 2 is released. DLC releases in SS are major metagame shifts that are almost akin to a new generation, and they should NOT inherit the banlist from the previous metagame.

View attachment 276472
I don't have an issue with resuspecting Pokemon at some point after DLC releases. Finch was pretty vocal about unbanning Melmetal when it was being tested, and given that, I think he understandably had some issues with how it would come across to unban it as the first and only Pokemon brought back down to OU after being banned in a suspect test this generation. That he felt it would come off this way speaks to a lack of concrete policy we have surrounding post-DLC retests, but I don't think the solution is as straightforward as what you're proposing. You noticeably omitted Galarian Darmaniatan, Magearna, and Dracovish from your post; if resuspects aren't all-or-nothing, we have to develop some criteria to decide which Pokemon are good candidates. What variables would be considerations? Time elapsed since ban? Number of DLC phases since ban? Suspect ban percentage? Speculation as to how the suspect would operate in the new metagame? I think most consideration is given to the last of these, but this is the most subjective and easily contested criterion on the list and the source of most tiering disagreements within the community. We've seen over and over how incorrect speculation can turn out to be; we have to acknowledge the limits of theory-driven testing can be and incorporate some of the objective criteria I just referenced. This might be tantamount to saying "We suspected it a month ago, no reason to do it again!" should Cinderace be banned, but it doesn't close the door on a future retest nor is it borne out of some agenda to get rid of it for good.

The other point I want to address is the notion of a "quick unban." I'm not necessarily opposed; in fact, DLC periods might be the best time to retest Pokemon we feel are worth revisiting to avoid having to introduce instability later on. But something to consider is that if, say, Melmetal turns out to immediately constrain the metagame in conjunction with several new Pokemon, people are probably going to ask the same question being raised now: Why didn't we wait for a "fairer" time to test it, after other Pokemon were banned, and it wouldn't have been broken in isolation?

As recognized, this discussion is getting off-topic, but if it happens, it happens. I invited further comment by responding to a post that could've just been deleted, so it's fair game. It can't dominate the thread for too long, so if anything warrants more discussion, it'll have to continue elsewhere.
 
The DLC release structure seems to have deterred Smogon's current suspecting structure inefficient. Apologies for bringing this up again as this is a discussion for the Policy Review thread but since I don't have access to it as a non-badged member, I'm just going to write it here. With the DLC releases the following problems arise:
  1. When a DLC drops, it brings huge number of threats, some of then potentially suspect worthy. However due to the limited time between two DLC drops, all of the required suspect tests cannot be carried out.
  2. DLC drops also bring big metagame shifts and new Pokemon that potentially make previously banned Pokemon not broken. However, the scope for retesting them isn't there as there is already a pressure to suspect some new broken mons and the metagame doesn't experience a period of stability for a retest.
  3. With each DLC drop, the number of Pokemon that needs retesting piles up.
So there isn't a way to give all Pokemon a fair shot, nor there is a way to ban all the problematic Pokemon to create a healthy metagame before the next big DLC drop happens. So I believe there needs to be a fundamental change in how Smogon approaches suspects. I would really love to see a thread on this in the Policy Review forum. Otherwise, this problem will persist. We will give retests to Pokemon like Cinderace which will obviously stay banned, but the retest needs to happen to ensure fairness, while the clock runs out for taking action on problematic Pokemon that exists in the tier, such as Toxapex, Clefable, Urshifu etc. On top of that, there is the issue of Pokemon such as Dracovish and Melmetal who require a retest in the new metagame for the sake of fairness, but simply can't happen.

One potential solution that comes to mind is increasing the threshold for being broken by increasing the banning majority to 75%/80% and then suspecting multiple Pokemon (like how Torn-T & Keldeo suspect was carried out together in BW) at once.
 
I know I'm breaking the rules as well, but since there is no place to talk about it (plz find one soon) I have to bring up the issue of the quick unban. This conversation is inevitable, so it's better to solve it sooner than later. In my opinion about how to solve the problem, we should approach the unbans in a similar case as to how UU did this gen. When shifts happened, they unbanned several UUBL mons and had them revoted on after a week to see if they were still manageable alongside new broken drops. I think that we should approach DLC 2 similarly, in which the council votes on which uber mons should be unbanned and then vote on them alongside any other problematic mons that exist.
For example, say cinderace and melmetal are the only ones voted to be unbanned. Then after a week, them alongside potentially broken stuff like tapu koko, lele, and kartana can be nommed to be voted on rather than suspected. Its a great way to clear up the tier instead of relying on suspects. If there is high demand for a mon that was voted on to be retested, then they should be retested. For example, say some people think koko would be manageable when the tier settles, then it should be retested, but we shouldn't bother to retest something that almost everyone knows it will be a problem, even if its been a while since it's been banned (looking at you dracovish). Once again I know im breaking the rules but we should at least have a place to discuss this since the conversation about how to tier effectively between DLCs is bound to happen.
 
I know that it's not really the place but i just wanted to say that, outside of the dlc, i'm not really a fan to quickban mon then retest them later. It just seems not fair To me.

I mean' in other suspect test, the metagame have the time To adapt To the threat that is suspected, in the case of cinderace, people only use their expérience before the quickban when magearna was here and the metagame still new. Some People posted during the very first day, when most of the player don't have the time To adapt to this new threat. I don't know if cinderace is broken or not but i think that this way To suspect mon Will irremediably make people vote for the ban.
 
I kinda agree with the opinion that says cinder has so many things that stop it , it is prediction reliant , for example wrong prediction could result in getting bunkered or mandibuzz getting a free defog , the idea that cinder is versatile and un predictable is wrong as careful team analysis makes it very predictable . it only outspeeds walls and is outsped by pault and zerora , the tier has 3 setup sweepers with aqua jet crawdaunt , azumarill and RS urshifu, 2 of them are basically a win coniditions after a sweep . cinder is a very strong mon but not auto-win , it requires skill . it is fun to use and fun to play against > it creates ca fun competitive enviroment . I am voting no ban
 
Just got reqs with this GOAT team, still waiting for confirmation tho. I can't wait for Cinderace to (hopefully) become legal once again in OU. Hear me out, I'll keep this short and sweet.

I get that it has access to great coverage moves. I get that it's a versatile offensive threat. I get that every one of its moves becomes stab with libero. I get that it 6-0d you on the ladder one too many times and made you feel bad. But please don't act like counterplay doesn't exist. First of all, it gets outsped and revenge killed by prominent OU mons such as Zera, Pult, and Zam, along with many relevant scarfers and priority users (there are too many to list, which speaks for itself). Also, consider the fact that Cinderace goes by the same rules as every other pokemon; that means only being able to run one set at a time with no more than 4 moves. Its solid movepool might force you to scout a set, but there is no individual set that has zero checks/counters. If you have a good team and don't move recklessly, you shouldn't have excessive trouble playing around Cinderace. The last thing I'll bring up is the shaky accuracy of Cinderace's best moves, which leads me to avoid running heavy-duty boots in favor of wide lens. For these reasons, I will be voting to UNBAN Cinderace.

Oh yeah and gen 8 OU is kinda stale without Cinderace LMAOOOO too many fat mons #BringBunnyBack #FreeNesquik
 
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Just got reqs with this GOAT team, still waiting for confirmation tho. I can't wait for Cinderace to (hopefully) become legal once again in OU. Hear me out, I'll keep this short and sweet.

I get that it has access to great coverage moves. I get that it's a versatile offensive threat. I get that every one of its moves becomes stab with libero. I get that it 6-0d you on the ladder one too many times and made you feel bad. But please don't act like counterplay doesn't exist. First of all, it gets outsped and revenge killed by prominent OU mons such as Zera, Pult, and Zam, along with many relevant scarfers and priority users (there are too many to list, which speaks for itself). Also, consider the fact that Cinderace goes by the same rules as every other pokemon; that means only being able to run one set at a time with no more than 4 moves. Its solid movepool might force you to scout a set, but there is no individual set that has zero checks/counters. If you have a good team and don't move recklessly, you shouldn't have excessive trouble playing around Cinderace. The last thing I'll bring up is the shaky accuracy of Cinderace's best moves, which leads me to avoid running heavy-duty boots in favor of wide lens. For these reasons, I will be voting to UNBAN Cinderace.

Oh yeah and gen 8 OU is kinda stale without Cinderace LMAOOOO too many fat mons #BringBunnyBack #FreeNesquik
Yeah, well, unfortunately, two of those are weak to Sucker Punch, with Alakazam just getting destroyed before it can do anything, and Dragapult having a very, very high chance to just drop dead if Stealth Rock is on the field, and even if Cinderace doesn't have it, who's to say that they won't just, you know, switch out and leave Cinderace to terrorize your team later? Also, those three are literally the only OU mons that outspeed it. What's more, if my only hope of winning against Cinderace is hoping that it misses, I would take that to mean I'm in a really crappy position.
 
Yeah, well, unfortunately, two of those are weak to Sucker Punch, with Alakazam just getting destroyed before it can do anything, and Dragapult having a very, very high chance to just drop dead if Stealth Rock is on the field, and even if Cinderace doesn't have it, who's to say that they won't just, you know, switch out and leave Cinderace to terrorize your team later? Also, those three are literally the only OU mons that outspeed it. What's more, if my only hope of winning against Cinderace is hoping that it misses, I would take that to mean I'm in a really crappy position.
Sucker punch is such a risky play versus pult unless it's choiced, which has become less common in today's meta. Meanwhile, sub/dd pult is much more common, which can win on the spot if cinderace clicks sucker punch in front of it. As for zam, it can run nasty plot which obviously makes sucker punch fail. Even so, many zam sets have focus sash.
 
Sucker punch is such a risky play versus pult unless it's choiced, which has become less common in today's meta. Meanwhile, sub/dd pult is much more common, which can win on the spot if cinderace clicks sucker punch in front of it. As for zam, it can run nasty plot which obviously makes sucker punch fail. Even so, many zam sets have focus sash.
It's the 4th fastest thing in OU, 5th if it runs Adamant (loses to Gengar). Regardless of sash or sub counterplay it still threatens a OHKO on all of them except Zeraora. It also resists all major priority moves including Sucker Punch if it gets crafty with its own SP. Alakazam only wins if it wins multiple 50/50s.

Cinderace is fast. Arguing that things "outspeed it" is a bad argument for an unban when literally only one of them doesn't instantly die to one of its most common moves.
 
Sucker punch is such a risky play versus pult unless it's choiced, which has become less common in today's meta. Meanwhile, sub/dd pult is much more common, which can win on the spot if cinderace clicks sucker punch in front of it. As for zam, it can run nasty plot which obviously makes sucker punch fail. Even so, many zam sets have focus sash.
Doesn't change the fact that Sucker Punch makes things really, really awkward if I'm hoping to revenge kill it with one of those two (ignoring the fact that neither of them OHKOs anyway). Did I mention that Dragapult just goes down if Cinderace has Life Orb? And sure, you could try to set up in front of Cinderace to avoid Sucker Punch, but whoops, it U-turned out on you instead, and Alakazam is either dead or close to it. See now why Cinderace is unhealthy for the metagame? Too many guessing games where you stand to lose big if you guess wrong.
 

Perish Song

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I get that it has access to great coverage moves. I get that it's a versatile offensive threat. I get that every one of its moves becomes stab with libero. I get that it 6-0d you on the ladder one too many times and made you feel bad. But please don't act like counterplay doesn't exist. First of all, it gets outsped and revenge killed by prominent OU mons such as Zera, Pult, and Zam, along with many relevant scarfers and priority users (there are too many to list, which speaks for itself). Also, consider the fact that Cinderace goes by the same rules as every other pokemon; that means only being able to run one set at a time with no more than 4 moves. Its solid movepool might force you to scout a set, but there is no individual set that has zero checks/counters. If you have a good team and don't move recklessly, you shouldn't have excessive trouble playing around Cinderace. The last thing I'll bring up is the shaky accuracy of Cinderace's best moves, which leads me to avoid running heavy-duty boots in favor of wide lens. For these reasons, I will be voting to UNBAN Cinderace.

Oh yeah and gen 8 OU is kinda stale without Cinderace LMAOOOO too many fat mons #BringBunnyBack #FreeNesquik
I'm not going to deny that counterplay exists, but I'm going to defend that counterplay against the Cinderace isn't as easy as you say it is.

To start off, the Pokemon you listed Scarfers, Priority users, Zeraora, Dragapult, and Alakazam can never switch in freely to Cinderace. If you do it raw you just take a massive chip and there is always a risk of that chip coming from a U-turn so you lose quite a bit of momentum along with a crippled Pokemon. If you don't do it raw it means you either used a partner with access to VoltTurn or used Clefable and in both cases, Cinderace has the potential to just beat the vast majority of these momentum providers. Clefable fears Gunk Shot so can't click Teleport Freely and most U-turn / Volt Switch users are just weak to Cinderace's coverage. The third case is just switching these pokemon in for free when a team member dies, in which case Cinderace probably achieved what it wanted to achieve. So you end up risking a Pokemon every time whenever you try to revenge kill Cinderace, and Cinderace obviously has no obligations to stay in just because you somehow brought up its offensive checks in.

I don't really like 4MSS as a negative point for Cinderace. Very much like Greninja, you get to pick your own checks and your opponent will never know which moves you run until you reveal them which might be quite costly. Let's assume you somehow brought up Dragapult and Alakazam in safely, can you know if it will Sucker Punch or not when the move is not revealed? You can't afford to play the prediction game most of the time and it is often paired with teammates to cover what Cinderace can't cover. (i.e if you don't run Sucker Punch you can run Urshifu for Dark-type coverage.)

Lastly, Cinderace didn't really do much to fat teams anyway. As most fat teams will include Hippowdon and Toxapex and both will probably run Rocky Helmet, you just get worn out way too easily. Hippowdon further chips it with sand damage so Cinderace cant often switch in freely especially during sand turns, while Toxapex has Baneful Bunker to poison it. The problem has always been the momentum provided by Cinderace so you can go teammates who can break fat more easily such as Urshifu, Crawdaunt, Obstagoon etc. (Yea we actually have lots of fat breakers, and you most certainly dont need Cinderace to take out fat pokemons.)
 

Finchinator

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I get that it has access to great coverage moves. I get that it's a versatile offensive threat. I get that every one of its moves becomes stab with libero. I get that it 6-0d you on the ladder one too many times and made you feel bad. But please don't act like counterplay doesn't exist. First of all, it gets outsped and revenge killed by prominent OU mons such as Zera, Pult, and Zam, along with many relevant scarfers and priority users (there are too many to list, which speaks for itself). Also, consider the fact that Cinderace goes by the same rules as every other pokemon; that means only being able to run one set at a time with no more than 4 moves. Its solid movepool might force you to scout a set, but there is no individual set that has zero checks/counters. If you have a good team and don't move recklessly, you shouldn't have excessive trouble playing around Cinderace. The last thing I'll bring up is the shaky accuracy of Cinderace's best moves, which leads me to avoid running heavy-duty boots in favor of wide lens. For these reasons, I will be voting to UNBAN Cinderace.

Oh yeah and gen 8 OU is kinda stale without Cinderace LMAOOOO too many fat mons #BringBunnyBack #FreeNesquik
Your entire post bases around the fact that you believe the tier has sufficient defensive counterplay and that you believe there are limits to what Cinderace can do due to a supposed 4MSS. However, you do not list one defensive check or counter throughout the post and you fail to explain how the move restriction can hinder it in practice.

Talking points can be just that sometimes: talking points. Perhaps they are not as applicable when you think it through and put it in practice. Perhaps instead of inferring people were in favor of banning it because they got 6-0d on the ladder, you could make actual arguments instead of filling your entire post with flashy logic that does not even apply and being condescending to those who disagree with you.

At best, Cinderace has a small pool of defensive answers that lack permanence in checking it due to U-Turn and potential others effects and conditions. At best, teams have one Pokemon to outrun Cinderace that cannot handle it defensively. At best, your argument is a misrepresentation. At worst, it is misinformation.

Finally, calling the metagame stale when it just saw unprecedented changes throughout OLT and there have been various phases of new standards within the last month is a bizarre assessment, in my opinion.
 
I'm posting here to drop an opinion that's also a question. I, like many other people, would vote for BAN and the reasoning can be found in many posts on this thread. STAB on expansive coverage, high power moves. STAB on pivoting move w/ HDB that chips at checks and gains momentum on them. Good speed tier and attack. However, what I'd vote is pointless because I won't get the reqs. The argument I want to bring up I haven't seen brought up ever and to me it's so intuitive, but I'm also aware that I may be oversighting something important, so I'll write it here because it's still on topic and more people can respond to it. Why is Cinderace the object of the ban and not just Libero on Cinderace?

We had a non-Libero Cinderace in OU and it wasn't nearly as broken. A well-phrased point I've read is that Libero provides basically a Choice Band boost on any coverage move that isn't Pyro Ball. STAB on U-turn. Gunk Shot, Zen Headbutt, Sucker Punch, HJK, etc. Coverage is pretty good, but the problem is definitely the STAB/free CB part, at least in the post DLC meta (and arguably still now). It's the reason why it's so effective at making progress. U-turn + HDB is still an amazing tool with its high speed, but Dragapult also runs that with even more speed. The difference maker was always the power behind that U-turn, which is granted by Libero. Without Libero, Cinderace would definitely be healthy and I can't think of any reason to ban the whole thing when its one ability that made it broken in the first place. What I may be oversighting is how complicated it is to factually prove that the broken thing is just Libero and what would happen to Scorbunny and Raboot in the lower tiers. Also, DLC2 is coming so it's probably time consuming and inefficient to separate ability and Pokémon now only to retest it again with the new DLC, but these reasons are technicalities more than they are logical, "in game" issues.

I've seen this type of question brought up for Galarian Darmanitan, but this situation is slightly different because we actually have separate experiences with Blaze Cinderace and then with Libero Cinderace. Again, some technicality issues would remain, but at least for Cinderace there's the fact that Blaze Ace was never considered broken and Libero Ace got quickbanned after weeks of (rightful) complaints.

I'm not trying to state that I'm more enlightened than the whole playerbase here on Smogon to come up with that argument, because I'm not and that's just dumb arrogance. I actually want to understand how many people agree with the "Libero made Cinderace too much for OU" statement and thus why I haven't seen the question in my post brought up, plus if the council ever considered this option and why it didn't go for it.
 
I'm posting here to drop an opinion that's also a question. I, like many other people, would vote for BAN and the reasoning can be found in many posts on this thread. STAB on expansive coverage, high power moves. STAB on pivoting move w/ HDB that chips at checks and gains momentum on them. Good speed tier and attack. However, what I'd vote is pointless because I won't get the reqs. The argument I want to bring up I haven't seen brought up ever and to me it's so intuitive, but I'm also aware that I may be oversighting something important, so I'll write it here because it's still on topic and more people can respond to it. Why is Cinderace the object of the ban and not just Libero on Cinderace?

We had a non-Libero Cinderace in OU and it wasn't nearly as broken. A well-phrased point I've read is that Libero provides basically a Choice Band boost on any coverage move that isn't Pyro Ball. STAB on U-turn. Gunk Shot, Zen Headbutt, Sucker Punch, HJK, etc. Coverage is pretty good, but the problem is definitely the STAB/free CB part, at least in the post DLC meta (and arguably still now). It's the reason why it's so effective at making progress. U-turn + HDB is still an amazing tool with its high speed, but Dragapult also runs that with even more speed. The difference maker was always the power behind that U-turn, which is granted by Libero. Without Libero, Cinderace would definitely be healthy and I can't think of any reason to ban the whole thing when its one ability that made it broken in the first place. What I may be oversighting is how complicated it is to factually prove that the broken thing is just Libero and what would happen to Scorbunny and Raboot in the lower tiers. Also, DLC2 is coming so it's probably time consuming and inefficient to separate ability and Pokémon now only to retest it again with the new DLC, but these reasons are technicalities more than they are logical, "in game" issues.

I've seen this type of question brought up for Galarian Darmanitan, but this situation is slightly different because we actually have separate experiences with Blaze Cinderace and then with Libero Cinderace. Again, some technicality issues would remain, but at least for Cinderace there's the fact that Blaze Ace was never considered broken and Libero Ace got quickbanned after weeks of (rightful) complaints.

I'm not trying to state that I'm more enlightened than the whole playerbase here on Smogon to come up with that argument, because I'm not and that's just dumb arrogance. I actually want to understand how many people agree with the "Libero made Cinderace too much for OU" statement and thus why I haven't seen the question in my post brought up, plus if the council ever considered this option and why it didn't go for it.
The answer just boils down to "that's not how Smogon works". The only time an ability or move is banned is if it's egregiously broken or uncompetitive, like Shadow Tag or evasion. Libero isn't that. And before anyone regurgitates the classic slippery slope response that's always given for this question:
slippery slope argument.PNG
 

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I've seen this type of question brought up for Galarian Darmanitan, but this situation is slightly different because we actually have separate experiences with Blaze Cinderace and then with Libero Cinderace. Again, some technicality issues would remain, but at least for Cinderace there's the fact that Blaze Ace was never considered broken and Libero Ace got quickbanned after weeks of (rightful) complaints.
  • The ability Gorilla Tactics is definitively not broken. We have both Huge Power and Pure Power, which should be objectively superior to Gorilla Tactics in every way. This means the ban on the ability is not the proper way to go.
  • Galarian Darmanitan without Gorilla Tactics is not broken either, we have seen a niche amount of Belly Drum Zen GDarms. What was broken however, is the combination of Galarian Darmanitan and Gorilla Tactics paired up together, with a 140 Base attack along with a free attack boost and still has freedom to run any item.
Combining these two, its reasonable to ban the broken combination instead of the elements who makes up the combination. Now onto Libero, its simple. Libero is not being suspected because a ban in OU will affect lower tiers, and Libero Raboot sees a fair amount of usage in pretty much every tier. It's even being used in OU occasionally as a Cinderace replacement so we cant assume that Libero is the only thing that makes Cinderace broken. Pretty much like Gdarm's case, Cinderace's qualities paired up with Libero is what makes it broken.
 
Why is Cinderace the object of the ban and not just Libero on Cinderace?
Cause Raboot and scorbunny aren't broken with it, so the problem is ace, not libero.

Even shadow tag and arena trap LC mons were broken to some degree to warrante banning the ability. ngl arena trap giga drain trapinch for seismatoad was hilarious, but libero simply doesn't have that affect and would just cause future problems if say, protean users or more libero users get introduce to the game. The byproduct of something shouldn't be banned, libero being broken is a byproduct of cinderace in this case. As for GT, we simply don't have a sample size beyond darm itself to really base an argument on banning the ability instead.

___

Anyway I personally I don't think ace will fix the tier or be healthy inside of it.

Not only is ace super constricting in teambuilding, but the amount of pivoting that has been enabled with the addition of ace just goes back to a topic we had back before the ban in the first place, the dominance of pivoting. There was a time period where we considered looking at teleport specifically, and mentioned pivoting as an unhealthy mechanic due to the sheer accessibility of it, but with ace gone it seemed like pivoting became more managable with less u-turn spam. Right now, on the ladder, just feels like every setup wallbreaker/stall mon gets in for free by virtue of attempting to check ace, this just mandates certain stall teams that can reliably and consistently deal with ace's u-turn chip and (hopefully) handle ace 1on1. Switch in blissey to handle ace? It just u-turned a safeguard volcarona. Switch in pex? Hope you have something willing to take an alakazam psyshock cause ace just yeeted the fuck out. The only reliable way to deal with ace, is by outspeeding it on a revenge kill or double switch (assuming it wasnt teleported in), but that mainly boils down to coinflip (predicting the switch, predicting movesets in the case of pult).

Its coverage options do enable it to pick its check and counters, but unlike say greninja in x/y, ace has a respectable physical attack to make the chip and overall raw damage much greater. The fact of the matter is unless you're using a team from the bazaar, or streaming the game, no one has a fucking clue what 4 moves your ace is running and that becomes a huge problem when trying to figure out your approach to checking it, especially if its stubborn to reveal anything and just u-turns all game.

Its bad enough we're teambuilding to check urshifu, wallbreak pex and other stall mons, but on top of that we have to teambuild inorder to reliably deal with ace's chip (uturn+hazards chip switching in), and reliably scout for ace's coverage moves without auto losing. I don't have time for reqs, but I don't think I'll be seeing the cadbury bunny after this until probably 1-2 months from now in DLC2 anyway (as it should've been).
 
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I’m a little confused with the math here. In a normal suspect test (60% supermajority), we only need 41% of the community in favor of keeping Ace in OU. But now we need 50% to bring Ace back down to OU? Why are the numbers not consistent and making it harder to unban Ace?
 
Lastly, Cinderace didn't really do much to fat teams anyway. As most fat teams will include Hippowdon and Toxapex and both will probably run Rocky Helmet, you just get worn out way too easily. Hippowdon further chips it with sand damage so Cinderace cant often switch in freely especially during sand turns, while Toxapex has Baneful Bunker to poison it. The problem has always been the momentum provided by Cinderace so you can go teammates who can break fat more easily such as Urshifu, Crawdaunt, Obstagoon etc. (Yea we actually have lots of fat breakers, and you most certainly dont need Cinderace to take out fat pokemons.)
If cinderace doesn't really do much to fat teams, and it can't touch stall, and offense will handle it the same way it handles any other threat (sac something in order to kill it), who exactly is cinderace so threatening to?
 
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