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If cinderace doesn't really do much to fat teams, and it can't touch stall, and offense will handle it the same way it handles any other threat (sac something in order to kill it), who exactly is cinderace so threatening to?
Cinderace threatens pretty much any team but the way they can respond to that are quite different.
You still pivot in and out against fat teams and stall while forcing threats out as certain mons still fear Cinderace's coverage. Clefable fears Gunk Shot, Corviknight and Skarmory fears Pyro Ball, Blissey pretty much fears any attack, and some of its common checks in Hippowdon and Mandibuzz still fear a random poisoning from Gunk Shot on the switch. If you manage to knock helmets from Toxapex and Hippowdon, Cinderace can just Zen Headbutt the Pex for chip on the switch and U-turn on Hippowdon to prevent the sand chip. These are all risky predictions that the fat/stall team doesn't want to take because losing a part of your defensive core can be quite costly against Cinderace's common teammates such as Urshifu.
You yourself said that offense checks Cinderace by sacking something in order to kill it, and that is actually quite costly. If Cinderace has decent teammates it will just switch out and nullify your attempt to revenge kill it, and you will just fall one Pokemon behind. Besides Cinderace doesn't have to be the one to take the kills, Cinderace can just provide momentum to its teammates with its STAB U-turn while dealing a considerable amount of damage. Like I stated in my post just because you have an offensive check-in Cinderace doesn't have to die. Besides two of the fast threats in Alakazam and Dragapult fears Sucker Punch, priority users such as Azumarill and Crawdaunt cant revenge kill it safely if Cinderace's typing is not Fire.
As we stated what Cinderace does to defensive and offensive checks, you can assume how it is for balance teams. (Limited defensive answers as you wont be running all 3 of its defensive answers, and same for offensive checks)
Cinderace threatens pretty much any team but the way they can respond to that are quite different.
You still pivot in and out against fat teams and stall while forcing threats out as certain mons still fear Cinderace's coverage. Clefable fears Gunk Shot, Corviknight and Skarmory fears Pyro Ball, Blissey pretty much fears any attack, and some of its common checks in Hippowdon and Mandibuzz still fear a random poisoning from Gunk Shot on the switch. If you manage to knock helmets from Toxapex and Hippowdon, Cinderace can just Zen Headbutt the Pex for chip on the switch and U-turn on Hippowdon to prevent the sand chip. These are all risky predictions that the fat/stall team doesn't want to take because losing a part of your defensive core can be quite costly against Cinderace's common teammates such as Urshifu.
You yourself said that offense checks Cinderace by sacking something in order to kill it, and that is actually quite costly. If Cinderace has decent teammates it will just switch out and nullify your attempt to revenge kill it, and you will just fall one Pokemon behind. Besides Cinderace doesn't have to be the one to take the kills, Cinderace can just provide momentum to its teammates with its STAB U-turn while dealing a considerable amount of damage. Like I stated in my post just because you have an offensive check-in Cinderace doesn't have to die. Besides two of the fast threats in Alakazam and Dragapult fears Sucker Punch, priority users such as Azumarill and Crawdaunt cant revenge kill it safely if Cinderace's typing is not Fire.
As we stated what Cinderace does to defensive and offensive checks, you can assume how it is for balance teams. (Limited defensive answers as you wont be running all 3 of its defensive answers, and same for offensive checks)
Ok so obviously take this with a grain of salt its just an exercise, but:
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Hydreigon threatens pretty much any team but the way they can respond to that are quite different.
You still pivot in and out against fat teams and stall while forcing threats out as certain mons still fear Hydreigon coverage. Clefable fears Flash Cannon, Corviknight and Skarmory fears Fire Blast, Blissey pretty much fears Superpower, and some of its common checks in Hippowdon and Mandibuzz still fear a random SpDef drop from Flash Cannon on the switch. If you manage to knock helmets from Toxapex and Hippowdon, Cinderace can just Zen Headbutt the Pex for chip on the switch and U-turn on Hippowdon to prevent the sand chip. These are all risky predictions that the fat/stall team doesn't want to take because losing a part of your defensive core can be quite costly against Hydreigon's common teammates such as Urshifu.
You yourself said that offense checks Hydreigon by sacking something in order to kill it, and that is actually quite costly. If Hydreigon has decent teammates it will just switch out and nullify your attempt to revenge kill it, and you will just fall one Pokemon behind. Besides Hydreigon doesn't have to be the one to take the kills, Hydreigon can just provide momentum to its teammates with its U-turn while dealing a considerable amount of damage. Like I stated in my post just because you have an offensive check-in Hydreigon doesn't have to die. Besides two of the fast threats in Alakazam and Dragapult fears Dark Pulse, priority users such as Azumarill and Crawdaunt cant revenge kill it safely because Hydreigon typing is Dragon.
As we stated what Hydreigon does to defensive and offensive checks, you can assume how it is for balance teams. (Limited defensive answers as you wont be running all 3 of its defensive answers, and same for offensive checks)
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Maybe it is just me, but all these ban arguments seem very much 'on paper' and generic. I really don't mean to be rude or snotty in writing this, but reading your post the whole time I just thought to myself: these are traits of a pokemon and mechanics of the game. All pivots bring in a threat and grab momentum. All fast hitters can run a coverage move to bonk a would-be check.
edit: scratched out the helmet line cause obv doesn't apply to hydrei.
Ok so obviously take this with a grain of salt its just an exercise, but:
________
Hydreigon threatens pretty much any team but the way they can respond to that are quite different.
You still pivot in and out against fat teams and stall while forcing threats out as certain mons still fear Hydreigon coverage. Clefable fears Flash Cannon, Corviknight and Skarmory fears Fire Blast, Blissey pretty much fears Superpower, and some of its common checks in Hippowdon and Mandibuzz still fear a random SpDef drop from Flash Cannon on the switch. If you manage to knock helmets from Toxapex and Hippowdon, Cinderace can just Zen Headbutt the Pex for chip on the switch and U-turn on Hippowdon to prevent the sand chip. These are all risky predictions that the fat/stall team doesn't want to take because losing a part of your defensive core can be quite costly against Hydreigon's common teammates such as Urshifu.
You yourself said that offense checks Hydreigon by sacking something in order to kill it, and that is actually quite costly. If Hydreigon has decent teammates it will just switch out and nullify your attempt to revenge kill it, and you will just fall one Pokemon behind. Besides Hydreigon doesn't have to be the one to take the kills, Hydreigon can just provide momentum to its teammates with its U-turn while dealing a considerable amount of damage. Like I stated in my post just because you have an offensive check-in Hydreigon doesn't have to die. Besides two of the fast threats in Alakazam and Dragapult fears Dark Pulse, priority users such as Azumarill and Crawdaunt cant revenge kill it safely because Hydreigon typing is Dragon.
As we stated what Hydreigon does to defensive and offensive checks, you can assume how it is for balance teams. (Limited defensive answers as you wont be running all 3 of its defensive answers, and same for offensive checks)
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Maybe it is just me, but all these ban arguments seem very much 'on paper' and generic. I really don't mean to be rude or snotty in writing this, but reading your post the whole time I just thought to myself: these are traits of a pokemon and mechanics of the game. All pivots bring in a threat and grab momentum. All fast hitters can run a coverage move to bonk a would-be check.
edit: scratched out the helmet line cause obv doesn't apply to hydrei.
Hydreigon has 21 less base speed, no STAB priority, and no omni-STAB. Without omni-STAB it's easier to check defensively and without priority + 119 base speed it's easier to revenge kill.
What a bad analogy. You can re-write anything to look bad if you ignore context. It doesn't counter Perish Song's point as in practice Cinderace is far stronger than anything else in OU. But just re-writing someone's post replacing a broken Pokemon with a weaker one doesn't disprove it.
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Pachirisu threatens pretty much any team but the way they can respond to that are quite different.
You still pivot in and out against fat teams and stall while forcing threats out as certain mons still fear Pachirisu coverage. Clefable fears Nuzzle, Corviknight and Skarmory fears Discharge, Blissey pretty much fears Super Fang, and some of its common checks in Hippowdon and Mandibuzz still fear a random Toxic on the switch. If you manage to knock helmets from Toxapex and Hippowdon, Pachirisu can just Discharge the Pex for chip on the switch and U-turn on Hippowdon to prevent the sand chip. These are all risky predictions that the fat/stall team doesn't want to take because losing a part of your defensive core can be quite costly against Pachirisu's common teammates such as Cramorant.
You yourself said that offense checks Pachirisu by sacking something in order to kill it, and that is actually quite costly. If Pachirisu has decent teammates it will just switch out and nullify your attempt to revenge kill it, and you will just fall one Pokemon behind. Besides Pachirisu doesn't have to be the one to take the kills, Pachirisu can just provide momentum to its teammates with its U-turn while dealing a considerable amount of damage. Like I stated in my post just because you have an offensive check-in Pachirisu doesn't have to die. Besides two of the fast threats in Alakazam and Dragapult fears Nuzzle, priority users such as Azumarill and Crawdaunt cant revenge kill it safely because Pachirisu typing is uhh this one doesn't work.
As we stated what Pachirisu does to defensive and offensive checks, you can assume how it is for balance teams. (Limited defensive answers as you wont be running all 3 of its defensive answers, and same for offensive checks)
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Hydreigon has 21 less base speed, no STAB priority, and no omni-STAB. Without omni-STAB it's easier to check defensively and without priority + 119 base speed it's easier to revenge kill.
What a bad analogy. You can re-write anything to look bad if you ignore context. It doesn't counter Perish Song's point as in practice Cinderace is far stronger than anything else in OU. But just re-writing someone's post doesn't disprove it.
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Pachirisu threatens pretty much any team but the way they can respond to that are quite different.
You still pivot in and out against fat teams and stall while forcing threats out as certain mons still fear Pachirisu coverage. Clefable fears Nuzzle, Corviknight and Skarmory fears Discharge, Blissey pretty much fears Super Fang, and some of its common checks in Hippowdon and Mandibuzz still fear a random Toxic on the switch. If you manage to knock helmets from Toxapex and Hippowdon, Pachirisu can just Discharge the Pex for chip on the switch and U-turn on Hippowdon to prevent the sand chip. These are all risky predictions that the fat/stall team doesn't want to take because losing a part of your defensive core can be quite costly against Pachirisu's common teammates such as Cramorant.
You yourself said that offense checks Pachirisu by sacking something in order to kill it, and that is actually quite costly. If Pachirisu has decent teammates it will just switch out and nullify your attempt to revenge kill it, and you will just fall one Pokemon behind. Besides Pachirisu doesn't have to be the one to take the kills, Pachirisu can just provide momentum to its teammates with its U-turn while dealing a considerable amount of damage. Like I stated in my post just because you have an offensive check-in Pachirisu doesn't have to die. Besides two of the fast threats in Alakazam and Dragapult fears Nuzzle, priority users such as Azumarill and Crawdaunt cant revenge kill it safely because Pachirisu typing is uhh this one doesn't work.
As we stated what Pachirisu does to defensive and offensive checks, you can assume how it is for balance teams. (Limited defensive answers as you wont be running all 3 of its defensive answers, and same for offensive checks)
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So you totally missed the point then lol... because what you said is exactly my point, you can sub in almost any mon and it still reads. People get mad when you list out generic traits of a mon as arugments, i'm pointing out that many of these things are tantamount to 'super effective coverage is good,' or 'procing secondary effects is good'.
So you totally missed the point then lol... because what you said is exactly my point, you can sub in almost any mon and it still reads. People get mad when you list out generic traits of a mon as arugments, i'm pointing out that many of these things are tantamount to 'super effective coverage is good,' or 'procing secondary effects is good'.
No my point is that you can write a persuasive paragraph about anything and make it sound good or bad even if it's blatantly wrong. Comparing Hydreigon and Pachirisu to Cinderace is obviously not a good argument because they're both much, MUCH weaker than Cinder and even if some common competitive Pokemon tropes apply to all three (checks, counters, chip, pivots etc) it doesn't mean they're equally easy to deal with.
No my point is that you can write a persuasive paragraph about anything and make it sound good or bad even if it's blatantly wrong. Comparing Hydreigon and Pachirisu to Cinderace is obviously not a good argument because they're both much, MUCH weaker than Cinder and even if some common competitive Pokemon tropes apply to all three (checks, counters, chip, pivots etc) it doesn't mean they're equally easy to deal with.
And so we get to the core of it. Arguments relying on common pokemon tropes are unconvincing. Arguments that illuminate the detrimental effects a mon has on the meta, and the specific temabuilding and in game scenarios in which its unhealthy influence is revealed are convincing, and i haven't seen much of that.
And so we get to the core of it. Arguments relying on common pokemon tropes are unconvincing. Arguments that illuminate the detrimental effects a mon has on the meta, and the specific temabuilding and in game scenarios in which its unhealthy influence is revealed are convincing, and i haven't seen much of that.
Cinderace is very unhealthy and heavily influences any player in the team builder. It's coverage alone allows you to pick and choose its own counters, and even its best switch ins like Slowbro and Toxapex take a bunch from U-turn and Zen Headbutt respectively. If you're running Rocky Helmet on these Pokemon to try and chip Cinderace (because it's incredibly hard to wear down thanks to Boots) they're also taking damage from entry hazards, and Slowbro eating 50% from a U-turn + SR, only to be forced out by Cinderace's incoming teammate just doesn't sit right with me. Zen Headbutt could also allow Cinderace to take on Pex 1v1, as it only needs a Flinch or to avoid Scald Burn to beat it (or force it out), and if Pex is running the likes of Baneful Bunker, that's just another example of how centralizing Cinderace is (the move didn't see much usage before Cinderace test). Keep in mind these are the best checks to Cinderace, both of which are more a temporary answer than anything.
Cinderace isn't as restrictive for offensive teams to deal with, but its very hard to revenge kill and wear down thanks to a combination of Boots + Sucker Punch. Sucker Punch is already a pretty terrible move competitively speaking, which is only amplified by Cinderace, as forcing 50-50s against the likes of Dragapult and Alakazam is intrinsically unhealthy, not to mention the games where I've won or lost based on a speed tie against opposing Cinderace. It's incredible speed tier doesn't help when trying to revenge kill it either, as you're somewhat forced to used priority attacks such as Aqua Jet, and even then that's assuming Cinderace is currently a Fire-type.
Your entire post bases around the fact that you believe the tier has sufficient defensive counterplay and that you believe there are limits to what Cinderace can do due to a supposed 4MSS. However, you do not list one defensive check or counter throughout the post and you fail to explain how the move restriction can hinder it in practice.
Talking points can be just that sometimes: talking points. Perhaps they are not as applicable when you think it through and put it in practice. Perhaps instead of inferring people were in favor of banning it because they got 6-0d on the ladder, you could make actual arguments instead of filling your entire post with flashy logic that does not even apply and being condescending to those who disagree with you.
At best, Cinderace has a small pool of defensive answers that lack permanence in checking it due to U-Turn and potential others effects and conditions. At best, teams have one Pokemon to outrun Cinderace that cannot handle it defensively. At best, your argument is a misrepresentation. At worst, it is misinformation.
Finally, calling the metagame stale when it just saw unprecedented changes throughout OLT and there have been various phases of new standards within the last month is a bizarre assessment, in my opinion.
I wanna start off by saying that my intention is definitely not to misinform or be condescending. I didn't wanna go through examples of Cinderace's checks/counters because I didn’t want my post to be too long, but since I've been called out for it I'll happily list some mons with calcs/explanations as proof. Let's start with the Cinderace I used on my req team:
Nesquik (Cinderace) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Pyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt
- Sucker Punch
Some OU mons that beat this set include defensive hippo, ttar, and unaware clef. Below are calcs with short explanations to support them.
As you can see, hippo eats Cinderace's strongest attack from the above set with ease, even at +1, leaving it free to retaliate with a super effective earthquake; that’s all while Cinderace is taking sand chip. This is before mentioning the fact that hippo can heal with slack off and remain healthy. If you wanna try to go for some zen headbutt flinches, here are some calcs and thoughts below.
1) 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 78-93 (18.5 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
2) +1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 117-138 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Not only does Zen Headbutt do pitiful damage, but the 20% chance to flinch becomes even less attractive when you consider the fact that many hippo sets run rocky helmet, so you'd essentially be throwing your Cinderace away for a slim chance of dealing additional damage. Next, let's talk about ttar; I'll use the spdef set that has been popping up lately for these calcs.
1) 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 83-98 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
2) +1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
3) +6 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 331-390 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4) +6 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Without a def investment, ttar still doesn't care about these hits from Cinderace. I know that the possibility of hjk or u turn might make a ttar hesitant to switch into Cinderace or stay in versus it, but many of these ttar sets run protect which helps scout. Even if they don’t, switching around can circumvent getting blindsided by a powerful attack. Anyway, sand chip also limits Cinderace here along with ttar being able to hit hard with rock blast, further cripple Cinderace with toxic/twave, and use rest to shatter any progress that Cinderace may have made. Pyro ball doesn't even kill ttar at +6, and sucker punch might not even 2hko it at +6. While getting +6 with Cinderace is extremely unlikely in the first place, I just wanted to prove a point by showing the strongest possible calcs with Cinderace's only 2 moves from that set that can even touch ttar. On to unaware clef now.
1) 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is really the only calc I feel the need to show. Since pyro ball doesn’t 2hko defensive clef and it gets access to recovery, it can effectively stall out Cinderace. Combine this with the fact that unaware prevents bulk up from increasing Cinderace’s attack and boom, Clef wins. I know that Clef should be wary of gunk shot, but protect can help it scout for that. Before anybody brings up flinching with zen headbutt, please consider the fact that gunk shot’s miss percentage is the same as zen headbutt’s flinch percentage (20%). This may seem unrelated, but I wanna bring it up because people often dismiss Cinderace’s subpar accuracy. Anyway, I’m kinda rambing but I hope you get my point. Time to discuss another Cinderace set.
Here is the other Cinderace set I’ll discuss in this post. Two OU mons that counter this set are hippo (again), toxapex. This set also lacks priority in sucker punch, so faster/scarf mons can beat it and it’s susceptible to priority.
I don’t feel the need to put additional calcs for hippo, but I wanna mention something that I didn’t bring up in my earlier analysis about it. Cinderace using u turn against hippo isn’t the greatest idea if hippo has rocky helmet, which many sets run nowadays. Constantly bringing in Cinderace just to u turn out and lose 1/6 hp is counterproductive. Staying in is even more counterproductive, as Cinderace really can’t hit hippo hard as discussed earlier. Time to talk about toxapex.
1) 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 48-57 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
2) 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 48-57 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
3) 252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
4) 252 Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 28-33 (9.2 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
There are all 4 of Cinderace’s moves getting laughed at by pex. The only one somewhat worth using is u turn, but the possibilities of baneful bunker and rocky helmet make it a questionable play. Is getting poisoned wroth doing 9.2 - 10.8% to a mon with regenerator? If not, what about the 1/6 hp damage being dealt if pex has rocky helmet? That’s 16.7%, which is even more than you’re dealing with u turn.
Now let’s talk about the faster mons. While the possibility of sucker punch can lead to 50/50 mind games, the above Cinderace set does not have the move. That leaves pult, zera, and zam all faster than it (and gengar if the cinderace is adamant), and allows scarfers such as togekiss, urshifu, and excadrill to outspeed and kill it. As for priority, mons such as crawdaunt, azumarill, and urshifu-rapid can either deal massive damage or kill Cinderace altogether with aqua jet. Rillaboom can even ohko Cinderace if it switches types, as shown by the calc below.
1) 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace in Grassy Terrain: 301-355 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lastly, I wanna address other people’s point that Cinderace’s counters are generally fat mons, questioning my opinion that the meta is too fat without Cinderace. While this is somewhat true, Cinderace’s presence threatens other fat mons such as ferro, tang, amoonguss, corv, and skarm. Ignoring this is pretty dishonest. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify my post and respond to people’s rebuttals.
I wanna start off by saying that my intention is definitely not to misinform or be condescending. I didn't wanna go through examples of Cinderace's checks/counters because I didn’t want my post to be too long, but since I've been called out for it I'll happily list some mons with calcs/explanations as proof. Let's start with the Cinderace I used on my req team:
Nesquik (Cinderace) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Pyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt
- Sucker Punch
Some OU mons that beat this set include defensive hippo, ttar, and unaware clef. Below are calcs with short explanations to support them.
As you can see, hippo eats Cinderace's strongest attack from the above set with ease, even at +1, leaving it free to retaliate with a super effective earthquake; that’s all while Cinderace is taking sand chip. This is before mentioning the fact that hippo can heal with slack off and remain healthy. If you wanna try to go for some zen headbutt flinches, here are some calcs and thoughts below.
1) 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 78-93 (18.5 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
2) +1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 117-138 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Not only does Zen Headbutt do pitiful damage, but the 20% chance to flinch becomes even less attractive when you consider the fact that many hippo sets run rocky helmet, so you'd essentially be throwing your Cinderace away for a slim chance of dealing additional damage. Next, let's talk about ttar; I'll use the spdef set that has been popping up lately for these calcs.
1) 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 83-98 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
2) +1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
3) +6 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 331-390 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4) +6 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Without a def investment, ttar still doesn't care about these hits from Cinderace. I know that the possibility of hjk or u turn might make a ttar hesitant to switch into Cinderace or stay in versus it, but many of these ttar sets run protect which helps scout. Even if they don’t, switching around can circumvent getting blindsided by a powerful attack. Anyway, sand chip also limits Cinderace here along with ttar being able to hit hard with rock blast, further cripple Cinderace with toxic/twave, and use rest to shatter any progress that Cinderace may have made. Pyro ball doesn't even kill ttar at +6, and sucker punch might not even 2hko it at +6. While getting +6 with Cinderace is extremely unlikely in the first place, I just wanted to prove a point by showing the strongest possible calcs with Cinderace's only 2 moves from that set that can even touch ttar. On to unaware clef now.
1) 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is really the only calc I feel the need to show. Since pyro ball doesn’t 2hko defensive clef and it gets access to recovery, it can effectively stall out Cinderace. Combine this with the fact that unaware prevents bulk up from increasing Cinderace’s attack and boom, Clef wins. I know that Clef should be wary of gunk shot, but protect can help it scout for that. Before anybody brings up flinching with zen headbutt, please consider the fact that gunk shot’s miss percentage is the same as zen headbutt’s flinch percentage (20%). This may seem unrelated, but I wanna bring it up because people often dismiss Cinderace’s subpar accuracy. Anyway, I’m kinda rambing but I hope you get my point. Time to discuss another Cinderace set.
To put it bluntly, this set is suboptimal. It is not making the best use out of Cinderace and likely has impacted your perspective.
The most common Cinderace and the set that breaks it, in my opinion, is:
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Gunk Shot
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn
You discuss it later on, but for some reason you have High Jump Kick over Zen Headbutt and do not consider Adamant Nature, which makes Toxapex and Kommo-O far more problematic in return for very little. Being able to hit Toxapex makes all of the difference in the world as it prevents things with natural longevity from being pivots/checks/counters to Cinderace routinely. Regardless, U-turn is able to chip would-be counters like Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Slowbro, and even Tyranitar or Hydreigon in to range for 2HKOs easily. Soon they go from seemingly reliable answers to Cinderace to just another Pokemon in danger of being 2HKOd. Being able to pivot in-and-out frequently while dealing out large chunks of damage is huge. Heavy Duty Boots is also a huge part of what breaks Cinderace, which you do not have in your set at all. Without Heavy Duty Boots, Cinderace is obviously a lot less effective and easy to get in. With them, it is super accessible and a very effective breaker and pivot while having one of the best speed tiers. Bulk Up Cinderace is good and it compliments this set nicely, but it is not really the problem when it comes to Cinderace.
Let's also address your point on revenge killers. Cinderace is one of the fastest Pokemon in the metagame, which is great, but it is true that Alakazam, Dragapult, and Zeraora can revenge kill the pivot set. The issue is that each of them gets OHKOd/2HKOd, which means they cannot switch in. To this I ask: what do you have to do to get in to a position to revenge kill something like Cinderace? Do you have to fodder off a Pokemon? Do you have to let a pivot take significant damage while doing very little in return? Do you have to outpredict Cinderace users for multiple turns in a row, while risking losing Pokemon? if the answer to any of these questions is yes (hint: it absolutely is), then Cinderace is already carrying its weight and it can simply switch out afterwards. Does this make these Pokemon offensive checks? Sure, when it lacks Sucker Punch, this can be the case. However, Cinderace can come in a lot of times with Heavy Duty Boots and/or minor support and you run in to the same dilemma each time. Considering the pool of revenge killers is so limited and none switch-in to it, this really is not a strong argument (if anything, it proves Cinderace is a problem).
Cinderace is broken and I will be voting ban. There is limited defensive counterplay and offensive counterplay while it is far too accessible.
My experience with SS OU has been fairly limited, but I did try Cinderace when it was in the tier and did not feel that it was broken at all.
Offensive options are sorely limited right now due to dexit, meaning that splashable wallbreakers are not very easy to find. NP Hydreigon gets stuffed by Blissey/Chansey and has severe coverage issues between wanting NP and Roost to offset LO recoil+rocks, Volcarona needs tons of setup before it becomes threatening with its Safeguard set, Zeraora lacks power due to its rather mediocre offensive typing and stats, Alakazam has the bulk of a wet roll of paper towel and the Toxapex that's on every single team can stay in on even a Life Orb Psychic and click Knock Off, SD Excadrill gets shut down by the common Corv/Skarmory, Specs Rem has to force as much damage on the opposing team as possible due to its crippling Stealth Rock weakness. Urshifu is one of the few splashable breakers and admittedly is broken,but Clefable being on every team does it no favors.
In general, offensive teams are always inherently at a disadvantage against semi-stall/fat teams. The combination of residual damage from switching in as well as chip damage from Helmet, sandstorm, possible Scald burns etc means that these teams will generally wear themselves out when facing Clef/Toxapex/Corv cores, meaning that they have to play perfectly in order to break through them. You can of course run HDB to mitigate the issue of longevity somewhat, but then the lack of power from a boosting item will be sorely missed and can easily cost you KOs. This is where Cinderace comes in. Although it wont be sweeping any teams by itself, it has a great speed tier meaning its not complete dead-weight anytime you face HO, and Libero gives it the much needed boost in power to turn moves that without the STAB boost defensive mons would laugh at. Ace gives more offensive minded players a mon that can force progress against fat teams while not being useless against offense itself, which is a godsend in a meta with no Z Moves or Megas.
I got my reqs like an hour ago, so while my insomnia keeps me awake, i might as well drop a few thoughts on why im voting ban.
Other users explained pretty well how it is pretty difficult and frustrating (not impossible tho) to play around cinderace main set (boots all out attacker with pyro, zen, turn, and gunk) in terms of checking and switching. Hippowdon and Mandibuzz, which can technically switch in on this cinderace set and are both respectable mons even in a cinderace-less metagame, can get easily crippled by u-turn which introduces a new threat ready to ko' them.
Similarly to my previous post on the magearna suspect thread, i'd also like to draw your attention to those bulky offensive volturn teams ive seen people spamming a lot on the ladder since cinderace got unbanned; said teams contain a cinderace volturn core, made with stuff like urshifu,rillaboom, magnezone, and a fat defensive core, formed by teleport abusers like slowbro, chansey and blissey. Cinderace easily makes those archetypes dumb and broken to my eyes: teams like that were heavily nerfed after quickban, and the metagame we have played since ace's departure is proof of that.
Those bulky offence archetypes simply seem a bit too much for me, as the player is easily rewarded by clicking u-turn/volt switch every time stucking the opponent into a chain which cripples his answers to said threats. Other times, said chains can force very ugly mindgames, which leaves little to skill, in my opinion. Banning the bunny is the best way to nerf them to a point in which they re still viable and useful, without being broken. So vote ban for a metagame in which we got rid of a pointless busted threat and u actually have to think and make an actual play instead of clicking volt switch/u turn 10 times in a row.
My experience with SS OU has been fairly limited, but I did try Cinderace when it was in the tier and did not feel that it was broken at all.
Offensive options are sorely limited right now due to dexit, meaning that splashable wallbreakers are not very easy to find. NP Hydreigon gets stuffed by Blissey/Chansey and has severe coverage issues between wanting NP and Roost to offset LO recoil+rocks, Volcarona needs tons of setup before it becomes threatening with its Safeguard set, Zeraora lacks power due to its rather mediocre offensive typing and stats, Alakazam has the bulk of a wet roll of paper towel and the Toxapex that's on every single team can stay in on even a Life Orb Psychic and click Knock Off, SD Excadrill gets shut down by the common Corv/Skarmory, Specs Rem has to force as much damage on the opposing team as possible due to its crippling Stealth Rock weakness. Urshifu is one of the few splashable breakers and admittedly is broken,but Clefable being on every team does it no favors.
In general, offensive teams are always inherently at a disadvantage against semi-stall/fat teams. The combination of residual damage from switching in as well as chip damage from Helmet, sandstorm, possible Scald burns etc means that these teams will generally wear themselves out when facing Clef/Toxapex/Corv cores, meaning that they have to play perfectly in order to break through them. You can of course run HDB to mitigate the issue of longevity somewhat, but then the lack of power from a boosting item will be sorely missed and can easily cost you KOs. This is where Cinderace comes in. Although it wont be sweeping any teams by itself, it has a great speed tier meaning its not complete dead-weight anytime you face HO, and Libero gives it the much needed boost in power to turn moves that without the STAB boost defensive mons would laugh at. Ace gives more offensive minded players a mon that can force progress against fat teams while not being useless against offense itself, which is a godsend in a meta with no Z Moves or Megas.
@Everyone saying this:
Go look at UUBL. Count the number of breakers down there. Go look at UU and count the number of breakers that can function fine in OU. Then count the number of breakers that are actually in OU.
We have plenty. Use some imagination.
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 426-502 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 617-729 (86.4 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Nice check.
Yes, if you only run 2 attacks on Volcarona you will need some setup. Guess what, you can just run 3 Attacks. Oh and Volcarona is so bulky it can usually get off at least two Quiver Dances anyway without issue.
The way you talk about Zeraora suggests you haven't played its Boots Volt Switch set, which basically is budget Cinderace that isn't broken as all hell. Zeraora is one of the most used Pokemon in high-level play for this.
Etc etc.
Saying balance has an inherent advantage over offense simply isn't true. Both are valid playstyles that can adapt to the other's changes. See: The last set of tier shifts where Necrozma, Toxtricity, Ditto and Hatterene all rose to OU. Speaking of which, have you ever tried SD Crawdaunt? 6-0s stall or your money back. Don't bother coming up with defensive checks because it hasn't got any. And +2 Aqua Jet is a pain for revenge killers too.
cinderace is dumb for the same reason it was in the magearna metagame. it's way too fast for how strong it is with omni-stab, meaning you have to go really bulky against it. it's tough enough to deal with when it's only running one set, given how uturn + boots in conjunction with other crazy strong breakers means you can easily, endlessly maintain ridiculous offensive pressure. however, it isn't limited to that one set - the limited options for dealing with it are limited even further when it dips deeper into its amazing movepool. something like bulk up + high jump kick is nuts, as it crushes rhyperior and 2hkos hippowdon while not fearing earthquake. forget roosting on it with mandibuzz either, and +1 zen headbutt crushes toxapex. it doesn't even need bulk up to play around pex, for that matter, as you can zen headbutt it on the switch and then pyro ball on baneful bunker, avoiding the poison - again, the standard set is more than enough to terrorize much of everything, I just wanted to illustrate that it can easily make itself even tougher to deal with. speaking of, its movepool is also good for denying out-offensing it as an option, as stab sucker punch is strong against the few pokemon that outspeed it. cinderace is too good for the ou metagame, and I'll be voting ban.
I kinda agree with the opinion that says cinder has so many things that stop it , it is prediction reliant , for example wrong prediction could result in getting bunkered or mandibuzz getting a free defog , the idea that cinder is versatile and un predictable is wrong as careful team analysis makes it very predictable . it only outspeeds walls and is outsped by pault and zerora , the tier has 3 setup sweepers with aqua jet crawdaunt , azumarill and RS urshifu, 2 of them are basically a win coniditions after a sweep . cinder is a very strong mon but not auto-win , it requires skill . it is fun to use and fun to play against > it creates ca fun competitive enviroment . I am voting no ban
I don't see how you can say there's a lot of things that stop Cinderace when it only has a small pool of defensive answers, most of which are dependent on it not running whatever move beats them (Slowbro fears U-turn and Toxapex doesn't like Zen Headbutt), and your statement about it only outspeeding walls is way off base - it's one of the fastest things in the tier. The number of things that outspeed it can be counted on one hand (and all but one of those are threatened by Sucker Punch), which means offensive counterplay is also lacking. I also fail to see how Cinderace is prediction reliant when if anything, the pressure is on the opponent to predict right because if they don't, either something is taking massive damage, or they're losing a Pokemon. What's more, I think the idea that Cinderace is predictable is utterly laughable. Between Pyro Ball, HJK, U-turn, Sucker Punch, Gunk Shot, Zen Headbutt, Court Change, and Bulk Up, it has like 1001 viable sets.
A lot of people are trying defend Cinderace by bringing up Hippowdon and Mandibuzz as “counters.” While yes it is true that they wall the entirety of Cinderace’s sets, coming into Cinderace is the problem. Here’s why:
They are slow. They can’t really touch Cinderace unless you rely on predictions. Also, Cinderace can U-turn out of both of them which leads to...
Other Teammates. Magnezone and Rillaboom threaten out Mandi and Hippo respectively. You now lose momentum of a bulky mon to switch out, giving the counter time to set up or double switch.
Pyro Ball and Gunk Shot have secondary effects. Pyro Ball burns and Gunk Shot poisons. Neither wants to get status effects from Cinderace or other foes. This makes switching in a little bit tense to do.
Not saying they aren’t good against Cinderace, but Ace just dances around without little issue.
A lot of people are trying defend Cinderace by bringing up Hippowdon and Mandibuzz as “counters.” While yes it is true that they wall the entirety of Cinderace’s sets, coming into Cinderace is the problem. Here’s why:
They are slow. They can’t really touch Cinderace unless you rely on predictions. Also, Cinderace can U-turn out of both of them which leads to...
Other Teammates. Magnezone and Rillaboom threaten out Mandi and Hippo respectively. You now lose momentum of a bulky mon to switch out, giving the counter time to set up or double switch.
Pyro Ball and Gunk Shot have secondary effects. Pyro Ball burns and Gunk Shot poisons. Neither wants to get status effects from Cinderace or other foes. This makes switching in a little bit tense to do.
Not saying they aren’t good against Cinderace, but Ace just dances around without little issue.
Not trying to say you are wrong, but Cinderace takes a lot of chip from each if they are carrying U-turn, as well as Sandstorm chip from Hippowdon, which is the best way of dealing with Ace. That's why Hippowdon is the best mon vs. Cinderace: It commonly carries Helmet so Cinderace has to predict and double switch, and every time Cinderace is brought in via double-switch or slow pivot, it takes that sweet 6% from sand.
Not trying to say you are wrong, but Cinderace takes a lot of chip from each if they are carrying U-turn, as well as Sandstorm chip from Hippowdon, which is the best way of dealing with Ace. That's why Hippowdon is the best mon vs. Cinderace: It commonly carries Helmet so Cinderace has to predict and double switch, and every time Cinderace is brought in via double-switch or slow pivot, it takes that sweet 6% from sand.
Cinderace may pay the rocky helm/sandstorm tax for u-turning on hippo, but hippo/its next switch in has to pay the knock off/water stab tax of crawdaunt, which in the end is a win for ace. You can replace crawdaunt with any wallbreaker or setup sweeper.
Ace just forces the opponent to always be in a losing situation, especially when you consider the teammates its pivoting in.
Cinderace may pay the rocky helm/sandstorm tax for u-turning on hippo, but hippo/its next switch in has to pay the knock off/water stab tax of crawdaunt, which in the end is a win for ace. You can replace crawdaunt with any wallbreaker or setup sweeper.
Ace just forces the opponent to always been in a losing situation, especially when you consider the teammates its pivoting in.
Not trying to say you are wrong, but Cinderace takes a lot of chip from each if they are carrying U-turn, as well as Sandstorm chip from Hippowdon, which is the best way of dealing with Ace. That's why Hippowdon is the best mon vs. Cinderace: It commonly carries Helmet so Cinderace has to predict and double switch, and every time Cinderace is brought in via double-switch or slow pivot, it takes that sweet 6% from sand.
Problem is, if Rillaboom entered recently, the healing from Grassy Terrain negates sandstorm chip. Also, Rocky Helmets can be knocked off (and Knock Off is something I would expect pretty much any half-decent team to have). What's more, if I have to run Rocky Helmet just to try to play around Cinderace, that only proves that Cinderace is having an adverse effect on the metagame, since most of the mons that would run it are better off running Leftovers or Boots. And as stated earlier, even if Cinderace loses HP to Rocky Helmet, whatever replaces it is likely to force the opponent into a crappy situation.
Not trying to say you are wrong, but Cinderace takes a lot of chip from each if they are carrying U-turn, as well as Sandstorm chip from Hippowdon, which is the best way of dealing with Ace. That's why Hippowdon is the best mon vs. Cinderace: It commonly carries Helmet so Cinderace has to predict and double switch, and every time Cinderace is brought in via double-switch or slow pivot, it takes that sweet 6% from sand.
Jolly Bots Bulk Up Cinderace at +1 2HKO's Max Def Hippo with Pyro Ball/HKJ after 1 spike or round of SR (respectively). The former doesn't take recoil damage even, and Cinderace can definitely run an Adamant nature and/or Life Orb.
HJK also means Hippo and Buzz can't OHKO back since EQ becomes neutral and Foul Play becomes resisted.
What's more, if I have to run Rocky Helmet just to try to play around Cinderace, that only proves that Cinderace is having an adverse effect on the metagame, since most of the mons that would run it are better off running Leftovers or Boots.
Just wanna say that I do believe Cinderace should be banned, I just wanna paint the picture that this thing isn't invulnerable. There are ways to deal with it, just many of them are too specialized and Inadequate (like the points everyone brought up about Crawdaunt and Rillaboom). But, Rocky Helmet is one of the better items in this meta, because it allows you to deal with U-turn spam from the likes of Dragapult, Rillaboom, Urshifu, and to a lesser extent, Corviknight and Mandibuzz. Running Rocky Helmet on Hippowdon is not a restriction in my eyes, because that chip helps with so many more mons than just Cinderace. It could just get knocked and then no longer pose a threat, though.
Cinderace is broken, even though i haven't played this retest myself much. i have seen popular opinions on it
1) there is 0 safe switchins, there are 3 pokemon at the top of my head who can take a move and retaliate. While short term, yes this is a solution, as the game goes on, ur pokemon is taking chip, and is prone to chip and status to cripple it and eventually cinderace is going to break through it
2) having to slap hippo, phys def mandi, and toxapex on every team just to check cinderace is unhealthy because it just restricts teambuilding, it's like dracovish in some sense, if u dont have a max def kommo-o, seismitoad, and max def ferro, u almost lose a mon as soon as it comes it claims a kill. Cinderace is similar in that vs teams that don't have these mons, they are just straight up losing a mon every time it comes in which it can do with HDB consistently. It also isnt limited to HDB 4 attacks and being an offensive pivot, it can alsu run Bulk Up 3 attacks, Choice band on sun teams and work up electro ball to slap pex. Sooo, to whoever saying it isnt broken, what have you been playing, low ladder?
Cinderace is broken, the fact that this stupid bunny has good coverage/movepool, meaning 0 safe switch ins and cinderace in OU makes it so that u are forced to run toxapex, hippo and max def mandibuzz just to check cinderace, it justs restricts team building and thats not good to just check cinderace. Imo Cinderace should be banned because of how problematic it is in the OU metagame. This thing will easily chip you until cinderace breaks you.
Not trying to say you are wrong, but Cinderace takes a lot of chip from each if they are carrying U-turn, as well as Sandstorm chip from Hippowdon, which is the best way of dealing with Ace. That's why Hippowdon is the best mon vs. Cinderace: It commonly carries Helmet so Cinderace has to predict and double switch, and every time Cinderace is brought in via double-switch or slow pivot, it takes that sweet 6% from sand.
hey have u heard about long term,I don't think you have gotten the point, without lefties hippo is getting worn down easily by hazards, and hippo can be statused by gunk shot, scalds, crippled by knock, toxic ed by pex, tricked by clef and more, so if ur reliable answer is helmet chip then something is wrong. hippo also checks multiple pokemon in the metagame ranging from zeraora without knot, drill barring +2 iron head flinch,is your primary rocker, and tyranitar. if your defensive wall is on constraint by so many things, there is going to be a problem because it is going to get overwhelmed and it won't be able to check cinderace as easily or at all
The answer just boils down to "that's not how Smogon works". The only time an ability or move is banned is if it's egregiously broken or uncompetitive, like Shadow Tag or evasion. Libero isn't that. And before anyone regurgitates the classic slippery slope response that's always given for this question: View attachment 276707
The same thing was going on with Gorilla Tactics and Galarian Darmanitan when it was being suspected. It's an idiotic argument that doesnt need to be brought up again.
