Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 4 - POWER (Dynamax Banned)

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Imo we should have a Dynamax restriction list like in the early meta. It was the reason we saw a lot of Gigantamax/Dynamax forms for "regular" Pokémon like Charizard and Gyarados in Ubers. Banning the entire Dynamax mechanic would restrict it to AG, meaning there'd be no reason to use those Pokémon over Dynamax-able Reshiram or Kyogre. I feel that, say, Gigantamax Charizard is about the same power level as a typical Uber rather than a Dynamax Reshiram.

Anyway, has anyone thought of using defensive Landorus-T as a Zacian-C check? The set I'm using is:

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Earthquake
- Knock Off/Smack Down

Unless Zacian has a ton of Swords Dances under its belt, Intimidate will give Lando a bit more breathing room to set up and then hit for a super effective Earthquake. Imo it's one thing that makes it better suited to the task than Zygarde, especially if it hasn't reached Complete Forme yet. I personally prefer running Knock Off over Stone Edge for additional coverage because it has extra utility aside from just doing damage, though I'll also try Smack Down so it can hit every Pokémon with EQ.

Also, it's worth noting that even uninvested Groudon Precipice Blades can OHKO Zacian-C.
 
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On the surface, the ability to turn counters into checks and checks into Not A Check Anymore Unless It Also Dynamaxes...
I've seen a lot of "Dmax makes checks/counters irrelevant" posts on the forum, and in my experience with the tier, this just isn't really true for Dynamax.

The simple truth is that, the vast majority of mons in Ubers do not hit significantly harder when Dmax'ed. For example, Kyroge's Water spout hits significantly harder when not Dmax'ed; the same can be said of Rayquanza's V-create. Other ubers like Dracovish and Darm-Galar hit signifigantly less hard when Dmax'ed due to the loss of power boost from their abilities.

The majority of Damage-dealing moves used in Ubers (Thunder, Astro Barrage, Blue Flare, Draco Meteor, Dragon Ascent, Outrage, Spacial Rend, Hydro Pump, ...) usually only gain a minor boost in Base Power when used as their MAX moves. Also, the moves that boost ATK/SPA (Max knuckle/Max ooze) are rare in Ubers. This means, in the vast majority of cases, if Pokemon A counters Pokemon B, Pokemon A will continue to counter Pokemon B even if Pokemon B uses dynamax. People saying "reactive play is thrown out of the window" are, to put bluntly, wrong; Blissey/shedninja and friends will continue to thrive in a tier with D-max allowed. This is the reason why some people above me have pointed out Balance and Stall are still seeing use on ladder. I myself spammed my way to reqs using balanced sand team.

...

To add to that, one thing that also made me get that mindset of Dynamax not being as broken as I initially thought were the playstyles of the teams I found on my road to 1800 on the ladder. Despite, in theory, Dynamax heavily favoring offensive styles due to the sheer power of it making it a "race for who can open the path for it first", instead of that happening, I saw a lot of balance teams, and pretty consistent ones at that (including myself running a balance/BO team despite using HO on basically any other gen). Dynamax abusers that would run the meta like we theorized before the DLC released, like Rayquaza, felt extremely underwhelming as that's not how the game is working. I did get my fair share of sweeps thanks to it (most coming from Zygarde), but they weren't Team Preview wins or "one missplay from my opponent" wins, I still needed to open the path for it in general, and when I did have the "one missplay win", they just lost to Zygarde regardless of that. I used a lot of Dynamax to help me deal with Pokémon that would more do that to not lose the game or open the path for a win than actually winning with it directly, especially with SpD Yveltal. Reactive play is not thrown out here: I would argue that a lot of what I saw were Dynamax allowing more reactive play than the other way around.

...
What Dynamax does do is make it much harder to revenge kill a Pokemon. Double HP, in addition to common boosts to DEF/Special DEF (Max Quake is very common in Ubers) and additional speed boosts via Max airstream all make revenge killing very difficult for offensive teams. Priority doesn't work nearly as well when offensive threats are twice as bulky as usual, and the common DEF/Special def boosts hinder scarfers from doing their job. Even Ditto, the King of revenge killing, isn't immune to this effect; it can fail to revenge kill threats like Xerneas if Xern clicks the dmax button. It should be noted, however, that if the ditto player has sac's available, he/she can always scout a potential dmax by switching out. This obviously isn't foolproof, but it's not quite the 50/50 coinflip that people seem to think it is.

Overall, I'm not convinced that Dmax deserves a ban. Ubers should have a higher standard for banning things than "it makes offense harder to run because it makes priority/scarfers less reliable", and I think people are exaggerating dmax's effect on the game simply because they don't like it.
 
The simple truth is that, the vast majority of mons in Ubers do not hit significantly harder when Dmax'ed. For example, Kyroge's Water spout hits significantly harder when not Dmax'ed; the same can be said of Rayquanza's V-create. Other ubers like Dracovish and Darm-Galar hit signifigantly less hard when Dmax'ed due to the loss of power boost from their abilities.
You say "the vast majority of mons" but then name the only examples of mechanics/moves that are specifically tailored to not be compatible with dynamax, half of which aren't even common in the tier... You also cite Kyogre as well, which contradicts your own point as Dynamax allows it to escape the choice lock without switching and therefore outmuscle a would-be check; the same principle applies to the less impactful Galarian Darmanitan you also mentioned.

As for claiming Dynamax doesn't allow mons to muscle past checks/counters, here's a series of calculations involving some of the more potent abusers:

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 235-277 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 300-353 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 191-226 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Max Airstream vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 309-367 (78.6 - 93.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 174-205 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Max Starfall vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 346-408 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 180+ Def Yveltal: 246-289 (54 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike vs. 248 HP / 180+ Def Yveltal: 319-376 (70.1 - 82.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 301-355 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 351-414 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Little-to-no chip damage is needed to break past Pokemon that would otherwise keep your mon in check. Even if your opponent takes extraneous preventative measures (don't ever use your Yveltal ever unless a Calyrex comes in, run an otherwise sub-par set like bulky Zacian, put Boots on everything and just hope there's no Knock Off support, etc) just to make sure they can survive a max move from full HP, it's still very easy to just save your on-demand win button a few turns and take a little bite out of the expected switch; if your opponent knows you only need a single turn to run train the pressure is much greater on them to prevent your sweep than it is for you to sweep immediately. Even the knowledge that Dynamax will win you the game in a single turn provides the Dynamax user a massive reward with no risk.

And this is of course just looking at the base power increase that comes from max moves; the doubled bulk also allow a Dynamaxed Pokemon to invalidate offensive checks. The utlity and damage boost you get from setting your own terrain is another factor that I'm doing a disservice to by glossing over, as is the ability of mons like Kyogre to escape their choice locks and pop a would-be resist (or just gets its high BP move back without full health). But I think the base power of spammable itemless Z-moves alone is enough to wear out the course of the topic; "not actually invalidating checks" is, uh, literally the exact opposite of what the mechanic does.
 
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As for claiming Dynamax doesn't allow mons to muscle past checks/counters, here's a series of calculations involving some of the more potent abusers:

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 235-277 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 300-353 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 191-226 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Max Airstream vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 309-367 (78.6 - 93.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 174-205 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Max Starfall vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 346-408 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 180+ Def Yveltal: 246-289 (54 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike vs. 248 HP / 180+ Def Yveltal: 319-376 (70.1 - 82.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 301-355 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 351-414 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Let's go over these "checks" you claim are invalidated by Dmax, since that's the core of the argument at hand:

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 256-302 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Gee, I hope Zacian-Crowned isn't my only answer to Xerneas in a real game. If this is your only answer to it on your team, your team is weak to Xern, period. I don't think this is a good example of dynamax "invalidating" a check when the check is super shaky in the first place. Not to mention it's easy to wear down Zacian with helmet damage, etc, over the course of a game, so even if Xern only has Thunder it's not likely to be a real answer late-game.

252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Max Airstream vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 309-367 (78.6 - 93.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Perhaps I'm just missing something, but I don't understand why Xern is switching into Yvetal in the first place. It fears knock off (leaving it unable to set up) if it's a setup variant (which 90% of Xernas in the tier are).

Moreover, if it's offensive Yveltal, Xernas isn't a switchin at all:

252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 191-226 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO

In the 1v1, assuming Yvetal and Xern are both at 100% health and unboosted, Xern wins even if Yveltal dmax's since it survives Max Airstream, uses geomancy, and hits back with a +2 moonblast.

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Max Starfall vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 346-408 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

In order for this to occur in a game, multiple things must be true:

1) The Calyrex player predicts the Yveltal switchin (It has to be a predict, since Sucker Punch OHKOs through Dmax).
2) The Calyrex player can afford to blow the Dmax button to obtain an OHKO.
3) The Calyrex player is running a Life Orb instead of the more common Scarf variant.
4) Stealth rock is up (or Yveltal is chipped).
5) The Calyrex player knows the Yveltal isn't the more common defensive variant, as Max Starfall fails to obtain the kill:

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Max Starfall vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 266-314 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall, this calc seems more of an "on paper" argument instead of something to be actually implemented in practice.

+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike vs. 248 HP / 180+ Def Yveltal: 319-376 (70.1 - 82.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Assuming the defensive Yveltal is heavy-duty boots (which they should be), I don't see this OHKO occurring in a real game.

+2 252+ Atk Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 351-414 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not sure I understand how this occurs.

If Groudon uses SD as Zygrade switches in, Zygrade takes 6% from rocks and heals back to 100% with leftovers. Max Quake fails to OHKO as Zygrade uses Glare and transforms into 100% form.

Overall I think these calcs have somewhat of an "on paper" theme. I'd like to see replays where they matter in practice.
 

Icemaster

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As well as Dynamax invalidating many traditional checks, and being very unpredictable, it creates a climate where there are too many too powerful threats existent in the meta, and so MU is even more important than usual. Xerneas, Yveltal, CM Kyogre, Zekrom, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Zygarde-C, SD Groudon, Calyrex-S & many others all easily barrel through their supposed checks with ease, and all have common MUs where they 6-0 from preview. It is simply not possible to cover them all, let alone half of them on a team which isn't extremely passive or doesn't lose to something else (Ferrothorn or T-Spikes) anyway. Oftentimes games come down to who's dynamaxer obliterates the other person's team, and who manages to set it up first (sometimes you can just lead it at preview and there is nothing which the opponent can do). In every meta there's always insta-loss MUs vs certain playstyles or pokemon that you forgot to prepare for/didn't prepare as it is not common, but dynamax takes it to another level where you're gonna potentially stumble into instant loss after instant loss due to how common they all are. If you vote No Ban, then you're accepting to play a meta where you'll lose 6-0 vs very common pokemon from preview.
Here's a few replays where insert Dynamaxer won from preview/with little effort:
I'll be voting Ban due to the MU nature of the meta and the difficulty of building consistent teams.
 

LBN

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UPL Champion
I'd also like to add on how easy it is to snowball with dynamax as a whole. Like alot of what holds these sweepers that use dynamax are simply invalidated by dynamax. Phasing is simply not possible, whirlwind and red card both straight up fail. Another method it invalidates is status in some cases. Like with xerneas, you can't twave it or anything since it can just set up misty terrain and there goes your dusk mane. It's also really hard to just ohko dynamax pokemon in alot of cases. Zyagrde-100% can literally almost always swallow a specs kyurem-white ice beam for crying out loud.

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dynamax Zygarde-Complete: 1120-1324 (88 - 104%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dynamax Zygarde-Complete: 1048-1240 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It also grants power ups like max airstream lando-t getting a free speed boost after an SD, which unless you have a ditto its over. Zekrom gets electric terrain and can now just mop the floor of the entire tier except dusk mane and groudon, and neither can kill it back.

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dynamax Zekrom: 408-482 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

We don't even need to post necrozma if groudon can't drop it. Also, it's not like it's exclusive to simply uber pokemon being broken with dynamax either, in DLC1 Volcarona, excadrill were in A rank for free thanks to dmax, and bloody rotom-fan was C rank cuz of it too
 
Dynamax should not be banned imo,we need dynamax to check some top threats like dracovish,darm-g,mimikyu,etc,if dynamax banned,dracovish will destroy everything
What. Just... What. I don't see how that helps check them when they can just go big as well (and in the case of the former two, they're now free to pound some would-be check into dust with a coverage move). As I see it, Dynamax needs to gtfo simply because it makes waaaaay too many Pokemon broken. And this is including non-ubers (who wants to face a Dynamaxed Gyarados? Not me, that much is certain).
 
As well as Dynamax invalidating many traditional checks, and being very unpredictable, it creates a climate where there are too many too powerful threats existent in the meta, and so MU is even more important than usual. Xerneas, Yveltal, CM Kyogre, Zekrom, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Zygarde-C, SD Groudon, Calyrex-S & many others all easily barrel through their supposed checks with ease, and all have common MUs where they 6-0 from preview. It is simply not possible to cover them all, let alone half of them on a team which isn't extremely passive or doesn't lose to something else (Ferrothorn or T-Spikes) anyway. Oftentimes games come down to who's dynamaxer obliterates the other person's team, and who manages to set it up first (sometimes you can just lead it at preview and there is nothing which the opponent can do). In every meta there's always insta-loss MUs vs certain playstyles or pokemon that you forgot to prepare for/didn't prepare as it is not common, but dynamax takes it to another level where you're gonna potentially stumble into instant loss after instant loss due to how common they all are. If you vote No Ban, then you're accepting to play a meta where you'll lose 6-0 vs very common pokemon from preview.
Here's a few replays where insert Dynamaxer won from preview/with little effort:
I'll be voting Ban due to the MU nature of the meta and the difficulty of building consistent teams.

Nice replays. Let's go over them.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1218514285-lhc8yl5ocltwscn4tmbmt03690eh4ibpw (Kyogre)

This is an AG replay, so I assume the meta is a little different here. I'm not so sure how much of an impact Dmax made here, as it seems that CM kyogre 6-0s at preview without Dmax enabled. This is also arguably a teambuilding mistake, as putting Haze on Eternaus ensures Kyogre never gets to sweep.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1209145224-3ti23jgtag8a4f7jiobkngluuh44cdkpw (Zek)

I fail to see how Dmax changes the state of the game in this replay. Zek gets to +6/+6 and nothing is stopping it, dmax allowed or not.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1223460407-qox7wibm40e6k0s3fbuoyl4nbhyaphppw (Yveltal)

Again, this is an AG replay. Regardless, I'll admit this is a good replay showing how Yveltal can get out of control.

So out of 3 replays, we have 1 which shows a teambuilding mistake, 1 where dmax is irrelevant, and the last one where Dmax Ygod takes over the field. I'm more inclined to conclude that Yveltal needs to be added to a Dmax blacklist than conclude that Dmax is inherently unbalanced.
 
Dynamax is now banned. Feel free to use this thread to post thoughts on the post-ban metagame until a better thread for it comes up.

We expect the metagame to stablize a lot easier and will look to start subforum projects and tournaments such as Most Wanted 2 during December. The Ubers Championship should also start within a few weeks which will give us a great insight into the new state of the metagame.
 

Aberforth

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Cool so with Dyna gone, clearly the biggest topic is going to be Calyrex-SR. I feel like its going to be the hot subject for a while as well, given that we're not going to rush into another suspect before (from the sounds of Nayrz's post) the end of The Ubers Championship.

For a long time now I havent bothered trying to justify my opinions on too-powerful pokemon because I feel like I just do a terrible job of it, but the more I play with Calyrex-SR, the more I'm convinced that it's at a power level too high for it to stay in the tier long term. I'm going to be playing around with a lot of shit in the next few weeks and seeing what sticks but generally, it forces one of Yveltal or TTar onto any non-trick room team, can cripple both of them with Trick (along with Trick Room's option of P2), and it has a really easy time snowballing after getting the requisite chip on the 3 mons that can take 2 hits normally. Losing Dynamax also means that we cant just double the HP of pokemon like Kyogre/Zygarde to tank a hit and KO it back, so we also lose some relevant offensive counterplay.

The other thing I find troublesome about it that I dont with something like a Primal Groudon is that it is so good, but not in a way that balances other elements of the game at the same time. Groudon could fill almost any role it wanted to on any given team, but that included defensive/balanced roles, whereas Calyrex is almost purely focused on damage output, and thus it is much more linearly centralising (in my view). Sure it gets Sub-Seed and Aromatherapy, but Calyrex is coming to punch holes through things, those moves are just either ways of punching holes through the things that would normally stop it, or as a filler move on choice sets to provide a small amount of situational utility.

Whether this is too much or not will likely vary depending on personal tolerance for this, but I'm disliking the effect I'm feeling of it on my teambuilder. However, there are counterpoints that are worth discussing. It generally doesnt want to take a single hit, and it does have hard counters for every set (such as Snarl Yveltal), and it lacks the ability to outpace faster threats through setup (although scarf is a nightmare for some offenses, I find it somewhat wasteful against the balances that Calyrex would otherwise chew up for breakfast). This does provide genuine counterplay for all team styles, especially with 5/8 turn weather back due to no primals, and Calyrex cannot be claimed to be at the same level as Mega Ray was.

I'm currently heavily leaning towards the thought that Calyrex will need to be properly evaluated and likely given the boot for the betterment of the tier.

I would like to say, if it is suspected and eventually banned, I would hope that we retest it in the event that Arceus or Pursuit ever returns from their current hiatus (or possible outright removal in Pursuit).
 
I feel like Calyrex S will be the next big discussion topic. It's absurd special attack and speed make it nigh impossible to check offensively. However, it also lost it's only way to get through Yveltal. On the flipside, you can't use defensive dynamax to stop it anymore. With the meta just starting, I felt it was the right time to put out some starting arguments for both sides. I tried my best, but I can say some dumb shit sometimes, so if I say something dumb, I apologize in advance.

Calyrex S is pretty busted in general. Whether or not to the degree of a ban, I think we can all admit that it's ridiculously strong. Through it's ultra strong and perfectly accurate stab, access to Nasty Plot, absurd stats, snowballing capability through it's ability, and wall breaking power through specs, it will one of the meta defining threats if it stays no matter what.

In defense of Calyrex though, it offers little defensively outside of slapping on leech seed or aromatherapy on a set because it has notjing else to use. Calyrex S is also not something that enables other pokemon. It's very selfish. It doesn't negate it's weaknesses and break the rules like MRay and Pdon. It is good through using the mechanics of the game as intended. It is not an impossible-to-stop sweeper. It's movepool is hot garbage, basically only having dark, pyschic, grass, and bug coverage. Although it has the highest speed out of all Uber-viable pokemon, (Outside of things like Excadrill in Sand) it is easily revenge killed by a scarfer with dark or ghost coverage. It has mediocre bulk and hates taking hits, even resisted ones if it's strong enough. It can't leverage it's good natural bulk and defensive typing to get setup opportunities like Zacian can. It's sole strength is it's offensive prowess.

However, it's lack of defensive utility could be used as a pro ban argument too though. As Aberforth points out, it doesn't help balance the meta through sheer versatility like PDon did, enabling greater variety through customizable strength. Instead, it centralizes it. it is a selfish sweeper, not being able to be slapped on any team and making that playstyle work, but building the team around it and making the checks mandatory for any competitive team. Obviously, checks for every top tier pokemon are mandatory for a good team, but there's a huge difference between having a disadvantage, and losing from turn 1. It's overwhelming offensive power is ridiculous, and considering how great Ghost is as a Stab, functionally only being resisted by dark, which has one good legendary in Ubers, Yveltal, it's neutral coverage is amazing combined with it's power. Pyshock allows Calyrex to beat Blissy/Chansy, two special walls who are immune to Astral barrage and that we normally rely on to beat special sweepers. The fact that it gets it's item slot free unlike Zacian means that it can boost it's power with life orb to make it's sweeping sets even better. The fact that we have to rely on Yveltal so hard to beat it is a massive indication of how good it is. It can also cripple Yveltal by tricking a choice item onto it.

Now, onto the elephant in the room, Yveltal. In my opinion, Yveltal (and Ttar to a lesser extent) is the only thing keeping Calyrex from being undeniably uncompetitive. Yveltal is both the thing keeping it in the tier and the ultimate credit to it's strength. Packing 4x super effective stab priority, the ability to tank any attack easily, and a great defensive movepool, it completely destroys Calyrex while being great in it's own right divorced from that specific matchup.

Calyrex is a very complex situation. I hope I've given a relatively neutral breakdown on the situation, and given good points for both sides. However, only time will tell how right I was, and us as a community can be a little... shortsighted. (Remember when people were saying that regular Zacian was better then the Crowned version because it could 2HKO Quagsire with banded play rough?) We might find a new counter to it that beats it. For example, has anyone tried agility+assurance Zacian? It sounds dumb, but it could very well work.
 
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I feel like Calyrex S will be the next big discussion topic. It's absurd special attack and speed make it nigh impossible to check offensively. However, it also lost it's only way to get through Yveltal. On the flipside, you can't use defensive dynamax to stop it anymore. With the meta just starting, I felt it was the right time to put out some starting arguments for both sides. I tried my best, but I can say some dumb shit sometimes, so if I say something dumb, I apologize in advance.

Calyrex S is pretty busted in general. Whether or not to the degree of a ban, I think we can all admit that it's ridiculously strong. Through it's ultra strong and perfectly accurate stab, access to Nasty Plot, absurd stats, snowballing capability through it's ability, and wall breaking power through specs, it will one of the meta defining threats if it stays no matter what.

In defense of Calyrex though, it offers little defensively outside of slapping on leech seed or aromatherapy on a set because of it's garbage movepool giving it no other option. Calyrex S is not something that enables other pokemon. It's very selfish. It doesn't negate it's weaknesses and break the rules like MRay, and Pdon. It is broken through using the mechanics of the game as intended. It is not an impossible-to-stop sweeper. It's movepool is hot garbage, basically only having dark, pyschic, grass, and bug coverage. Although it has the highest speed out of all Uber-viable pokemon, (Outside of things like Excadrill in Sand) it is easily revenge killed by a scarfer with dark or ghost coverage. It has mediocre bulk and hates taking hits, even resisted ones if it's strong enough. It can't leverage it's good natural bulk and defensive typing to get setup opportunities like Zacian can. It's sole strength is it's offensive prowess.

However, it's lack of defensive utility could be used as a pro ban argument too though. As Aberforth points out, it doesn't help balance the meta through sheer versatility like PDon did, enabling greater variety through customizable strength. Instead, it centralizes it. it is a selfish sweeper, not being able to be slapped on any team and making that playstyle work, but building the team around it and making the checks mandatory for any competitive team. Obviously, checks for every top tier pokemon are mandatory for a good team, but there's a huge difference between having a disadvantage, and losing from turn 1. It's overwhelming offensive power is ridiculous, and considering how great Ghost is as a Stab, functionally only being resisted by dark, which has one good legendary in Ubers, Yveltal, it's neutral coverage is amazing combined with it's power. Pyshock allows Calyrex to beat Blissy/Chansy, two special walls who are immune to Astral barrage and that we normally rely on to beat special sweepers. The fact that it gets it's item slot free unlike Zacian means that it can boost it's power with life orb to make it's sweeping sets even better. The fact that we have to rely on Yveltal so hard to beat it is a massive indication of how good it is. It can also cripple Yveltal by tricking a choice item onto it.

Now, onto the elephant in the room, Yveltal. In my opinion, Yveltal (and Ttar to a lesser extent) is the only thing keeping Calyrex from being undeniably uncompetitive. Yveltal is both the thing keeping it in the tier and the ultimate credit to it's strength. Packing 4x super effective stab priority, the ability to tank any attack easily, and a great defensive movepool, it completely destroys Calyrex while being great in it's own right divorced from that specific matchup.

Calyrex is a very complex situation. I hope I've given a relatively neutral breakdown on the situation, and given good points for both sides. However, only time will tell how right I was, and us as a community can be a little... shortsighted. (Remember when people were saying that regular Zacian was better then the Crowned version because it could 2HKO Quagsire with banded play rough?) We might find a new counter to it that beats it. For example, has anyone tried agility+assurance Zacian? It sounds dumb, but it could very well work.
Dang you figured out my strat.

Excuse my lack of teambuilding skills, but as a matter of fact I actually did run Assurance base Zacian in the early days of the Crown Tundra. I slapped an assault vest on it, so it did manage to tank even a +1 Astral Barrage from LO Calyrex SR. It just came in, tanked a single hit and revenge killed it with assurance, which was always an OHKO, and literally nobody expected it, so they didn't think to Dmax the guy to tank the hit. I know, it's kinda a trash set but hey, it worked.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Zacian: 270-320 (83 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian Assurance vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 472-556 (138.4 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you managed to safely switch in Zacian-C on an unboosted Calyrex SR, I think it can tank a hit, which makes your idea work too. However, I am yet to test that ingame.

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 270-320 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I dont even think you need assurance, because SR Calyrex doesn't have good bulk. If you managed to pull off a safe switch in, you could always just click behemoth blade and get a KO. Although I do understand why you would want to use agility first, I just wanted to point that out.
 
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Dang you figured out my strat.

Excuse my lack of teambuilding skills, but as a matter of fact I actually did run Assurance base Zacian in the early days of the Crown Tundra. I slapped an assault vest on it, so it did manage to tank even a +1 Astral Barrage from LO Calyrex SR. It just came in, tanked a single hit and revenge killed it with assurance, which was always an OHKO, and literally nobody expected it, so they didn't think to Dmax the guy to tank the hit. I know, it's kinda a trash set but hey, it worked.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Zacian: 270-320 (83 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian Assurance vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 472-556 (138.4 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you managed to safely switch in Zacian-C on an unboosted Calyrex SR, I think it can tank a hit, which makes your idea work too. However, I am yet to test that ingame.

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 270-320 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I dont even think you need assurance, because SR Calyrex doesn't have good bulk. If you managed to pull off a safe switch in, you could always just click behemoth blade and get a KO. Although I do understand why you would want to use agility first, I just wanted to point that out.
Why not just run Scarf and Crunch?
+1 252 Atk Zacian Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 628-740 (184.1 - 217%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It Calyrex-Shadow is at +1, then that just means it that it already got a kill, so you would be bringing it in after a kill anyways, outspeed to not take damage, and doesn't rely on Life Orb Recoil to deal 120 BP damage (also Calculator does not show Assurance with double power).

For other Choice Scarf threats to check Calyrex-S, anything with base 97 Spe full investment and neutral natures will outspeed timid Calyrex-S, while anything with 84 max investment positive nature will also outspeed timid Calyrex-S.
In terms of speed weather abusers, anything with 61 or more base speed can outspeed Calyrex-S with neutral nature, and base 51 for positive natures under the respective weathers, which can help revenge kill.

So if you are using Calyrex-S or want to find a way to have a decent answer to Calyrex-S, keep this in mind. Luckily everything besides the Necrozma forms, Calyrex-I, and Dracovish have more than 84 Speed in Ubers, so we have a lot of options, and the latter 2 have other means of outspeeding Calyrex-S.

Another thing to keep into consideration is that Calyrex-S requires you to use Timid over Modest, since otherwise it gets beat by Jolly Zacian-C, so thank Game Freak for not giving Calyrex-S Quiver Dance or a rebranded version.
 
Just played like an hour of Ubers without Dynamax,. I do not miss Dynamax at all. Fuck that shit. It was not fun. I thought I would kind of miss defensive Dynamax but no I don't miss it at all either. Everything is a lot more balanced now. I hated wondering if they would dynamax or not to live a hit. And offensive Dynamax made the whole thing a giant mess. I actually kind of like this tier now and I think only Calyrex is something to keep an eye on and maybe Kyogre but Kyogre´s never been banned before so idk if that would ever be on the table. Everything else feels atleast manageable. Don't get me wrong Dynamax is a fun mechanic with mons that actually deserve it like an nfe or something. It´s fun to also Dynamax an Uber every once in a while but leave that in AG.
 
Why not just run Scarf and Crunch?
+1 252 Atk Zacian Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 628-740 (184.1 - 217%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It Calyrex-Shadow is at +1, then that just means it that it already got a kill, so you would be bringing it in after a kill anyways, outspeed to not take damage, and doesn't rely on Life Orb Recoil to deal 120 BP damage (also Calculator does not show Assurance with double power).

For other Choice Scarf threats to check Calyrex-S, anything with base 97 Spe full investment and neutral natures will outspeed timid Calyrex-S, while anything with 84 max investment positive nature will also outspeed timid Calyrex-S.
In terms of speed weather abusers, anything with 61 or more base speed can outspeed Calyrex-S with neutral nature, and base 51 for positive natures under the respective weathers, which can help revenge kill.

So if you are using Calyrex-S or want to find a way to have a decent answer to Calyrex-S, keep this in mind. Luckily everything besides the Necrozma forms, Calyrex-I, and Dracovish have more than 84 Speed in Ubers, so we have a lot of options, and the latter 2 have other means of outspeeding Calyrex-S.

Another thing to keep into consideration is that Calyrex-S requires you to use Timid over Modest, since otherwise it gets beat by Jolly Zacian-C, so thank Game Freak for not giving Calyrex-S Quiver Dance or a rebranded version.
Regular Zacian is unviable, you can just use Yveltal to counter Calyrex. Since Dynamax is banned, Calyrex can't touch Yveltal with Max Starfall anymore.
 
Regular Zacian is unviable, you can just use Yveltal to counter Calyrex. Since Dynamax is banned, Calyrex can't touch Yveltal with Max Starfall anymore.
I wouldn't say that. It is not a strong as before, but it certainly is not unviable by any means.
 
Calyrex is an interesting case for me. I personally think it's difficult to argue that it's not broken- its power, stab and speed ensure that it has basically 1 relevant reliable switchin (Yvel is practically mandatory imo) and sure it's not terribly difficult to revenge kill, but if that's your primary solution, then that's still a problem. But despite the theoretical arguments, it just doesn't feel unmanageable. As a wallbreaker, it's held back by its shitty defensive typing and average bulk leaving it with very few opportunities to enter play and deal damage. This wouldn't be a dealbreaker, except it really can't beat Yvel- it can at most annoy it with things like Trick, Wisp, etc, but these aren't stopping Yvel from shutting it down. So although it's a potent wallbreaker, it hasn't felt broken in that role for me. As a sweeper, Yvel is an issue, but it also faces plenty of obstacles in terms of revenge killers. In my many ladder matches for the dynamax suspect, it was surprisingly rare for me to pull off an actual sweep with Calyrex once I exited low ladder. Even with Scarf enabling me to beat most other Scarfers, I still found myself frequently stopped by Ditto and literally anything with Dark/Ghost priority.

To me it felt like there was a finite set of answers to Calyrex, but that if you ran them, it was rarely an issue. Centralising? Sure. But I didn't feel like it was overpowering teams or anything similar that would detract significantly from competitive play
 
Just as people people used defensive NDM to contain Zacian-C, same way people use Yveltal to contain Calyrex (except that Yveltal is a much more reliable counter).

Would Yveltal be as good in this meta without Calyrex? Probably not, but it would still be damn good. It got a physical flying STAB move like Dual Wing Beat so running Choice Band is now much easier than before.

Basically, Calyrex is pretty broken once it gets a kill, but until that happens, it's very manageable. I don't think it warrants any suspect test.
 
With talks of Calyrex-S suspect, it would be unwise to forgo talking about Zacian-C, its royal quadruped partner in crime.

They have a list of differences that help seperate them, including the obvious flip of offensive stats and ones ability to hold items. However in the grand scheme of things, they are both problematic in the same way.

You need a few answers to both, thankfully some of those answers overlap. Although those answers could become just more food for both depending on the set.
Substitute can make it impossible to revenge kill, and of course makes it so Ditto can’t turn the tables on sweeping.
Zacian-C can ignore weather abusers and scarfers entirely with Agility, while Calyrex-S can just put on Choice Scarf to do the same (for both, this does come at a cost of power).
Besides Quagsire, all defensive answers have to fire back at both really hard so they don’t just overwhelm them with SD/NP.
With a trapper like Gothitelle or Dugtrio, barring Yveltal, those defensive answers either run Shed Shell, making it harder to check these massive mammals, or just flat out die.
Sticky Webs can be an option to help revenge kill and sweep yourself, but the limited amount of users with enough vitility to endure an entire match is limited.

Despite all of this, Zacian-C has been able to run around Ubers freely since SWSH released. That was also when the only 3 ubers of the traditional archetype were Eternatus, Zacian, and Zamazenta.

If Calyrex-S is deemed too much for Ubers, then why not Zacian-C?
Both are about even in terms of being able to deal with (arguably Zacian-C is harder to deal with because Quagsire literally does nothing other than counter Zacian-C, made worse by the fact that Dynamax is banned so it can’t defensively Dynamax either, meanwhile Yveltal and Tyranitar are amazing regardless of Calyrex-S, although Snarl defensive Yveltal isn’t exactly ideal, and you really need Crunch for Shedinja. Also Zacian-C doesn’t die to a Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak either).

On the flip side, if Zacian-C isn’t considered ban worthy, even when its answers were limited to non-legendaries up until Home and DLC2, why isn’t Calyrex-S the same?

Also keep in mind, while both have answers to their own answers, they have to make compromises for those answers. Sub can either lose coverage they need or make them lose their boosting move. Or that 1 Thunder Wave/Glare can ruin them completely as they both heavily rely on speed. Or that their defensive utility is either being immune to Toxic/Sand or Extreme Speed, and they have no defensive utility outside that, so both struggle to switch into offensive Pokemon. Or that being so incredibly popular, it isn’t a waste to prepare for both.
 

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I think it's far too soon to talk about Zacian suspect or anything, Dynamax ban does help it, but Zacian has never been a banworthy threat before.
Zacian-C can ignore weather abusers and scarfers entirely with Agility, while Calyrex-S can just put on Choice Scarf to do the same (for both, this does come at a cost of power).
Agility is not the easiest move to slap on Zacian currently, as it wishes a lot the maximum use of its coverage. With the Dynamax ban, Play Rough/Wild Charge/Close Combat does have good coverage, but you're still missing the power to OHKO other Zacian after a small chip, hit Shedinja, 2HKO Necrozma with Assurance, wallbreaking power in general with Swords Dance, etc. While with Calyrex, Scarf you just miss some immediate power, which is already dealt with just one boost from its ability (and Astral Barrage already hits crazy hard without any boost). Also, Scarf Calyrex still threatens both defensive Yveltal and Tyranitar as both HATE being Tricked into having Scarf, so it's not like Calyrex is giving them a free switch by running that or something.
Besides Quagsire, all defensive answers have to fire back at both really hard so they don’t just overwhelm them with SD/NP.
Like said before, Zacian still needs the right coverage for them, and if you're running SD, you probably either dropped Agility or is running only two offensive moves, which doesn't cover the meta super well regardless of what you're running. The opportunity cost for SD on Zacian is higher than Nasty Plot on Calyrex, which already hits basically the entire meta except for two mons with just its STABs.
Despite all of this, Zacian-C has been able to run around Ubers freely since SWSH released. That was also when the only 3 ubers of the traditional archetype were Eternatus, Zacian, and Zamazenta.
When only 3 Ubers with ~680 BST were avaliable, you had far more freedom on just running mons specifically for Zacian without crippling your team against the rest of the meta. At that time, you could run stuff like Arcanine for it just fine without it being a deadweight mon, which is not true for Calyrex today. You also had the possibility of using Dynamax, which is banned now, and there were a lot of checks depending on Zacian's coverage, like Corviknight for those without Wild Charge, Aegislash for those without Crunch, the already mentioned Arcanine and Quagsire for any set, Ditto and Dugtrio for scaring out Zacian since they could revenge kill it, with Ditto being a immediate threat due to the free +2 and Dugtrio trapping it, etc.
If Calyrex-S is deemed too much for Ubers, then why not Zacian-C?
Both are about even in terms of being able to deal with (arguably Zacian-C is harder to deal with because Quagsire literally does nothing other than counter Zacian-C, made worse by the fact that Dynamax is banned so it can’t defensively Dynamax either, meanwhile Yveltal and Tyranitar are amazing regardless of Calyrex-S, although Snarl defensive Yveltal isn’t exactly ideal, and you really need Crunch for Shedinja. Also Zacian-C doesn’t die to a Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak either).
Both are not even in terms of how to deal with it. With Zacian, you can pivot around most of the time: none of Zacian's moves have great neutral coverage since both of its STABs are resisted by Steel- and Fire-types, which are abundant in Ubers. Meanwhile, it's not uncommon to see teams where 5/6 Pokémon are either OHKOed or outsped and 2HKOed by Astral Barrage with the exception of their Yveltal or Tyranitar. You're also talking as if Quagsire was the only Zacian answer that exists, ignoring the super splashable Necrozma-DM and, again, Pokémon that can safely switch into it once you know its coverage, like Ho-Oh for non-Wild Charge, Zygarde for non-Play Rough, any Steel-type for non-Close Combat, Shedinja for non-Crunch, etc.
Sub can either lose coverage they need or make them lose their boosting move.
SubNP Calyrex still has two switch-ins. Sub Zacian has considerably more and does loses its boosting move.
Just reiterating, Zacian does become scarier on this meta due to no Dynamax and more threats and partners to it, like Xerneas, making it harder to have dedicated answers to it, but it's not on the same level as Calyrex and it doesn't even really present the same problem as it.
 
Agility is not the easiest move to slap on Zacian currently, as it wishes a lot the maximum use of its coverage. With the Dynamax ban, Play Rough/Wild Charge/Close Combat does have good coverage, but you're still missing the power to OHKO other Zacian after a small chip, hit Shedinja, 2HKO Necrozma with Assurance, wallbreaking power in general with Swords Dance, etc. While with Calyrex, Scarf you just miss some immediate power, which is already dealt with just one boost from its ability (and Astral Barrage already hits crazy hard without any boost). Also, Scarf Calyrex still threatens both defensive Yveltal and Tyranitar as both HATE being Tricked into having Scarf, so it's not like Calyrex is giving them a free switch by running that or something.
Agility is still an option to take into consideration, as the point being that both could simply ignore speed tiers in some way. You wouldn't be using either as early as their more traditional sets either, only after you have weakened your opponent's team due to both lacking their traditional power, especially Calyrex-S, as you say can boost based on its ability while scarfed (but only if it gets kills).
And while Calyrex-S does have Trick, which can cripple Ttar and defensive Yveltal, they don't immediately stop threatening Calyrex-S all of a sudden, and while they are crippled, they are still somewhat usable. If it were Blissey/Chansey, then that would be a bigger problem.

Like said before, Zacian still needs the right coverage for them, and if you're running SD, you probably either dropped Agility or is running only two offensive moves, which doesn't cover the meta super well regardless of what you're running. The opportunity cost for SD on Zacian is higher than Nasty Plot on Calyrex, which already hits basically the entire meta except for two mons with just its STABs.
Only if those Pokemon are on the healthier side.
Like Necrozma-DM needs to be at least 268 HP if it wants to survive a +3 Close Combat, as it will deal a huge chunk of damage.
+3 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 267-315 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This is what I mean when I say Zacian-C's only true defensive answer is Quagsire. It's the only Pokemon in the game that just ignores Intrepid Sword+Sword Dance, while also being able to kill, PP stall, or burn it.)
You also don't typically run agility and sword dance on the same set. You could run Scarf+Nasty Plot on Calyrex-S, but you would first need to trick your choice scarf onto something before you do, then you're left with Astral Barrage+Drain Kiss or Astral Barrage+Psyshock.

When only 3 Ubers with ~680 BST were avaliable, you had far more freedom on just running mons specifically for Zacian without crippling your team against the rest of the meta. At that time, you could run stuff like Arcanine for it just fine without it being a deadweight mon, which is not true for Calyrex today. You also had the possibility of using Dynamax, which is banned now, and there were a lot of checks depending on Zacian's coverage, like Corviknight for those without Wild Charge, Aegislash for those without Crunch, the already mentioned Arcanine and Quagsire for any set, Ditto and Dugtrio for scaring out Zacian since they could revenge kill it, with Ditto being a immediate threat due to the free +2 and Dugtrio trapping it, etc.
Perhaps, but isn't that pretty much the definition of overcentralizing? You could check all variants with non-ubers for sure, but all of them could fall to one of its coverage options, or just die to Sword Dance. Also Ditto is pretty much exclusively used as an answer to Zacian-C (and now Calyrex-S, Kyurem-B, Zekrom, and Rayquaza)
Granted, Gen 1 Mewtwo never went AG and that thing is a lot more broken than anything that has come after. I will say that it would have been redundant to ban Zacian-C when you could only fit half your team with traditional Ubers.

Both are not even in terms of how to deal with it. With Zacian, you can pivot around most of the time: none of Zacian's moves have great neutral coverage since both of its STABs are resisted by Steel- and Fire-types, which are abundant in Ubers. Meanwhile, it's not uncommon to see teams where 5/6 Pokémon are either OHKOed or outsped and 2HKOed by Astral Barrage with the exception of their Yveltal or Tyranitar. You're also talking as if Quagsire was the only Zacian answer that exists, ignoring the super splashable Necrozma-DM and, again, Pokémon that can safely switch into it once you know its coverage, like Ho-Oh for non-Wild Charge, Zygarde for non-Play Rough, any Steel-type for non-Close Combat, Shedinja for non-Crunch, etc.
First, there are only 2 Fire types in Ubers, Ho-oh/Reshiram (which does not resist play rough), and 6 Steel types, Dialga(neutral to Play Rough)/Genesect(Extremely frail)/Necrozma-DM/Solgaleo(which is absolutely bad)/Zacian-C(which doesn't resist Steel and is Zacian itself)/Zamazenta-C(also bad like Solgaleo)
In terms of Uber Pokemon, you really only have 2 defensive answers that resist Zacian-C's STABs, where both can be overwhelmed by Sword Dance. For non-Ubers, you have Skarmory, Corviknight, and Melmetal, which currently aren't great either, and Moltres is just outclassed by Ho-oh. Yeah, Ferrothorn exists, but it's not taking a +3 Close Combat from something that has Kyurem-B's Atk stat, and you really need Ferrothorn for Kyogre if you don't have another check.

Second, Zacian-C OHKOs and 2HKOs and outspeeds nearly everything as well, just like Calyrex-S, and both can be screwed over by lacking certain coverage moves. Like Calyrex-S lacking Psyshock is walled by Blissey endlessly. With Special Defense investment, Ho-oh can just pivot around Calyrex-S while threatening it out with Sacred Fire. Kyogre can stomach some life orb astral barrages, and outspeed with Scarf, then kill with Origin Pulse.

SubNP Calyrex still has two switch-ins. Sub Zacian has considerably more and does loses its boosting move.
Just reiterating, Zacian does become scarier on this meta due to no Dynamax and more threats and partners to it, like Xerneas, making it harder to have dedicated answers to it, but it's not on the same level as Calyrex and it doesn't even really present the same problem as it.
A substitute isn't about letting either deal with their respective walls outside of absorbing status, it's about making sure neither get revenge killed, even by Ditto. Also you forget that Blissey takes 0 damage from Astral Barrage, and Sub sets forgo Psyshock.

Calyrex-S and Zacian-C are definitely in a same league (idk what you define as league), and the problem with them both is that they are potent wallbreakers that are hard to kill due to their natural speed.


Even with that said, I believe neither should get the ban hammer. They are still wallable and still revenge-killable without too much set up. This is in contrast to the previous AG Pokemon Mega Rayquaza. First being the fact that Mega Ray absolutely does not have to worry about something like Sand Rush Excadrill thanks to Delta Stream, and having max investment puts it over base 100 positive natures, in addition to having Extreme Speed for Dittos as well. There was no way to revenge kill it after 1 boost in ORAS and 2 boosts in Gen 7 (thanks to Marshadow).
Meanwhile, both Zacian-C and Calyrex-S have to deal with Weather, Scarfers, their respective defensive options, and they can't do that all in one set like Mega Rayquaza could.
 
I wouldn't say Zacian-C is in the league of Calyrex-S, since Zacian-C never goes out of control without Swords Dance and it isn't always easy to setup. For Calyrex, only a handle amount of things in the meta prevent it from 6-0 entire teams. Also Calyrex has a lot more tools up in its sleeve (like Trick, Encore, Leech Seed, Taunt). Chansey and Blissey aren't really used as much (both can be crippled with Trick), and Calyrex basically needs Astral Barrage which has excellent coverage (unlike Behemoth Blade).
 
I'm a bit split on dynamax. On one hand, making moves different, increasing HP, and all the features it gives are really fun to face against and/or use. On the other hand, in a lot of situations, if your opponent dynamaxes, the only reliable counter is to just dynamax your pokemon. This is a serious topic and will have a big impact on the ubers meta, but I think we should get some kind of banlist. on the other hand, maybe letting the meta develop itself is also a good idea, as it generally makes it more fun than if more things are regulated.

P.S. I am self aware that I am dumb, and ofc, my opinion doesn't have to be your opinion.
 
Xerneas @ Choice Band
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
- Horn Leech
- Rock Slide

this set is crazy good,almost has no switch in,rock slide for shedinja and hooh,CC for ferrothorn,grass move for quagsire and recovery,play rough is stab

252 Atk Choice Band Fairy Aura Xerneas Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 372-440 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Xerneas Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 400-472 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Xerneas Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 312-368 (88.6 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Fairy Aura Xerneas Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Xerneas Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 396-468 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fairy Aura Xerneas Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fairy Aura Xerneas Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 309-364 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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