Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 8 - Ridin' Dirty (Calyrex-Shadow Suspect Test)

[Aberforth]

​

The Ubers Council has decided to suspect Calyrex-Shadow!

Reasoning

Following Zacian-Hero's ban in June last year, Calyrex-Shadow has been unquestionably the single most influential pokemon in Ubers, and has attracted controversy as a result. The combination of speed and power that Calyrex-Shadow has is unmatched in ubers, especially in conjunction with 165 base Special Attack backed up by a 100% accurate Astral Barrage. 150 Base Speed limits offensive counterplay significantly, outspeeding so much of the offensive metagame, leaving only a few Choice Scarf users and super-effective priority users. On top of that, its ability not only restricts berries as a potential form of counterplay, but also can allow Calyrex-Shadow to snowball out of control very quickly. While Calyrex-Shadow's offensive movepool is somewhat limited, it has a fairly extensive support movepool, and only really needs Astral Barrage on any given set. Moves like Aromatherapy, Trick, Nasty Plot, Substitute + Leech Seed, Disable, Taunt and Encore are all incredibly versatile options at Calyrex-Shadow's disposal.

Yveltal is by far the best check to Calyrex-Shadow, and is a fantastic pokemon in its own right, and is thus found on almost every team. As such, a lot of the ways Calyrex-Shadow tries to adapt are with the goal of effectively dealing with Yveltal. As time has gone on, Calyrex-Shadow has found more and more ways of breaking through Yveltal, through avenues like Substitute + Leech Seed, Focus Sash with Nasty Plot and Draining Kiss, Trick + Choice Specs, Trick + Nasty Plot on Choice Specs teams, and more recently options like Disable and Encore. While it is possible for Yveltal to reliably handle these combinations of sets, doing so severely limits Yveltal's effectiveness against the rest of the meta, running slower spreads and sacrificing moveslots for options like Snarl. Opting for more generally useful Yveltal sets means that people need to use secondary Calyrex-Shadow checks, which are not as reliable and further limits teambuilding, to an extent that a vocal number of players consider unhealthy.

However, Calyrex-Shadow is not entirely flawless. While the aforementioned sets seem very intimidating, they are generally more limited in practice and they require precise play over a long period, especially given Astral Barrage's PP issues. Opting for sets that effectively break through Yveltal comes with their own downsides, giving up valuable moves like Aromatherapy and Psyshock, which can leave Calyrex-Shadow wanting in certain matchups, especially since some Yveltal sets are still effective despite these counterplay options. Its defensive stats are not bad, but Calyrex-Shadow can only normally take one or two neutral hits throughout a game, making it a challenge to bring in repeatedly. As such, Calyrex-Shadow has often found itself better in theory than in practice throughout this generation.

Suspect Test Information

• The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice. For reference, there's a minimum games required table posted below.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be UBCS. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account UBCS Aber.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitation when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular Ubers ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• We will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a moderator. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for just under two weeks, lasting until July 13th, 10:30 PM GMT -4, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

Minimum Games Required Table

GXE	Minimum Games Required
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

Suspect Test Rules

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the Ubers Council and the Ubers Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the Ubers Council, an Ubers Tier Leader (Fc or myself), or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

The test will run until Wednesday July 13th, 10:30 PM GMT -4. In order to ban Calyrex-Shadow, a 66.6% supermajority will be required. If you meet the requirements then post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but please take note of the criteria outlined there when you do in order to be eligible!

Current Ubers Council

Fc
Aberforth
Icemaster
Manaphy
Minority
Lacus Clyne
The Strap
Staxi
TonyFlygon
TrueNora

Tagging Kris and Marty to announce this on the Ubers ladder, thank you guys.

 

[Fc]

I firmly believe that Calyrex-S should not be banned.

I've made a lot of posts on Calyrex-S already:

examples

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...acian-hero-banned.3676539/page-5#post-8856079
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...acian-hero-banned.3676539/page-6#post-8918131
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...acian-hero-banned.3676539/page-3#post-8751659

but since a few of these are dated I'll go over my points again, even though I stand by most of this. Gonna respond to the OP first then add a few individual thoughts.

Yveltal is by far the best check to Calyrex-Shadow, and is a fantastic pokemon in its own right, and is thus found on almost every team. As such, a lot of the ways Calyrex-Shadow tries to adapt are with the goal of effectively dealing with Yveltal.

This is one of the big points people focus on, restrictiveness. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a Pokemon near 100% usage, especially if it's actually a good mon outside of having 1 job (Yveltal is an incredible Pokemon, will still be probably top 5 but if not still one of the best without Calyrex-S). Yveltal is good at its job vs. Calyrex-S teams and does well vs teams without it because it has so much utility with Defog, U-turn, and Knock Off being broken. How much something is forced to be used has never been an issue for Ubers, with PDon having around the same usage in the past 2 gens. I've heard arguments around PDon not just being for pogre or not just for Xerneas which is very true, but that's said with the goal of making it seem like yvel is a bad mon with the same usage because it's only there for 1 purpose. It's a very good Pokemon regardless, this is probably the best gen it could have with no Arceus or Z-moves for Knock Off, and I think having it be centralized is perfectly fine.

As time has gone on, Calyrex-Shadow has found more and more ways of breaking through Yveltal, through avenues like Substitute + Leech Seed, Focus Sash with Nasty Plot and Draining Kiss, Trick + Choice Specs, Trick + Nasty Plot on Choice Specs teams, and more recently options like Disable and Encore. While it is possible for Yveltal to reliably handle these combinations of sets, doing so severely limits Yveltal's effectiveness against the rest of the meta, running slower spreads and sacrificing moveslots for options like Snarl. Opting for more generally useful Yveltal sets means that people need to use secondary Calyrex-Shadow checks, which are not as reliable and further limits teambuilding, to an extent that a vocal number of players consider unhealthy.

While some of these do have the potential to beat Yveltal, I think generally most sets can beat it and naturally most teams do as well. Sub Seed loses to Snarl (p mid move but it has uses vs etern and all calys) and just clicking U-turn into either a scarf pivot like Darm-G, Marshadow if you can break the Sub w U-turn, Ho-Oh, or just something then going back to Yvel to break the sub if the first U-turn doesn't because it doesn't take all that much from +2 barrage since subseed runs phys.def. Trick is annoying but it just forces good play and building with any speed control for insurance (or Zama-C as a Trick absorber). I've been vocal on saying Disable isn't a good set and I don't think it is, I think either regular sash np or specs are just better. Trick Disable sets are just bad because they don't get a set up moveslot that's meaningful, because it needs protect to viably scout Yveltal and if you're predicting Roost just use Psyshock > Disable for coverage. NP Sub Disable only works vs yvel without Knock and FP together which is decently common and also doesn't work vs normals and can be punished by things like U-turn on the Disable turn or just U-turning around like vs. Subseed. Yveltal alone with maybe 1 teammate to revenge since Caly-S has low bulk should be enough in most cases if played relatively well, and that's not even mentioning things like Tyranitar and Zarude which see little but some usage (mostly because Yveltal is just better not entirely because caly things).

Aside from that, which are the main things, I talked about tiering policy in one of my other posts I linked. It's a touchy subject especially for ubers since it isn't clearly defined even though we tried to, but I'll give my 2 cents on it as tier leader. I believe that to be banned from Ubers, a Pokemon or strategy should either be completely uncompetitive (STag, Baton Pass) or have counterplay that requires using unviable Pokemon / completely unreliable counterplay that limits the skill presented in game (Zacian-C needing Quagsire or it's an Assurance 50/50-fest, Zacian-H just 2HKO'ing the entirety of the game no exceptions with Choice Band predictions). There may be a few small exceptions to this that I'm forgetting, but I don't think Calyrex-S falls under any of these. I think that Calyrex-S has incredibly viable counterplay as well as a decent enough variety even though I don't care about that personally. It also doesn't limit the skill of the game at all IMO, since pretty much every game in recent memory with it people have either gotten outplayed to lose to it or beat it. Sure it presents some 50/50's with Trick and stuff but I've never felt that as overwhelming as anything in the past like Zacian-C just sweeping a whole team if it clicks Assurance right since it hardly does damage to Yvel with no specs and needs multiple correct plays and to not get punished for predicting.

I think it also just helps keep things in check. Ubers has always been the broken checks broken tier, and as long as it can be checked by something else broken I think it's fine. Yveltal, Tyranitar, Ho-Oh, Zarude, and Blissey all in some way keep it in check defensively, with a few more Pokemon like Eternatus, Zama-C, and P2 either soft checking Barrage / Trick or just beating it but not being as good. Offensively, Marshadow, Scarf Kyogre, Scarf Darm-G, Weavile, Scarf Xerneas, Giratina-O, and even random things that can live unboosted hits like defensive Kyogre and Groudon with investment all are able to apply enough pressure to neutralize it. Hell, even NDM lives a scarf Barrage always and a specs one more often than not if running max max. Calyrex-S just doesn't have the same potential that other banned Pokemon have due to its way lower bulk, and I just don't see a reason that it should be gone from the tier because it's a manageable threat. It keeps HO in check and can be an overall glue mon with scarf, is a good utility cleric, and just a nice revenge killer. It compresses roles as an offensive Pokemon while not being overbearing, and I really like that quality it has.

Overall, I feel that Calyrex-S rewards skillful gameplay, has viable, competitive counterplay, and since Dynamax was banned has not been powerful enough to come close to banworthy. With all that in mind, I will be voting do not ban on Calyrex-S and hope this can sway some people, as I really think that Ubers should have a higher standard than what Calyrex-S presents and it's a good part of the metagame.

 

[Hrishioo7]

Even though i have been quite inactive lately I think calyrex shadow rider Should be banned.

Let me just make it into some points tbh

1) At first let's take a look as for why this suspect is taking place. One of the major reasons is that people think that using yveltal is bad? I mean it's not bad of course cause even if caly-ghost gets banned yveltal will remain in the higher tiers as it's probably one of the best defoggers. There is a different perspective according to why teambuilding in this meta feels pressurised. Yveltal rn can't run a offensive moveset/scarfed moveset just cause u have to set up another Pokemon like ho-oh/zarude in case u want variable yveltal sets other than the classic sp defense one.

2) Another major question that strikes the mind is caly doesn't seem as strong as a force to reckon than physical wallbreakers like weavile marshadow etc. But that's not the point u see, basically none of these wallbreakers work well without a team structure that is specifically helping them like pivots etc. And rather they don't force us having real checks to them and even if they do their checks are quite multitaskers. By this i mean for instance if u keep a Ferro on your team to check weavile is also checks stuff like dd ndm zekrom and other shit like some sets of kyogre and xerneas. I wil also consider what sp def ygod checks other than just calyrex in this. It checks dd ndm and somewhat a groudon. But it's a weak check to these things. Ndm can run stone edge if it fits onto the build and groudon survives one foul play at +2 from full hp and has a decent chance to ohko yveltal.

3) This point was made just to verify as to how broken exactly caly is in the meta and why do i think that it should be banned. It definitely isn't as broken as zacian-c and zacian-h but it restricts team-building up to a higher extent than any other Pokemon in the current meta without having much team support to its own. Scarfed sets aren't as broken but are extremely good revenge killers which makes u think that caly is rather healthy for the meta and saves ubers from being a ho food. But maybe there are other revenge killers like scarf yveltal and other flying types/fast Pokemon that will get a room to breath after caly banned. What i am pointing out here isn't that calyrex is totally broken but banning it will make teambuilding even more competitive and free than it is rn. On the other hand though specs sets are extremely good and ohko almost anything no resisting it and then come some variable sets like disable which kind of ignore ygod and let's be honest not all yveltal run 2 dark moves. Ttar is a total block to calyrex according to many but again how many teams can afford ttar? And if some can do with having a defoggers other than ygod then just think why can't teams in no caly meta have those defoggers too and make that ttar slot free for some other defensive/offensive mon to come in and make the teams more competitive.

Now in the end many people won't agree with what i said(there will always be haters) but from my view of perspective and from what i have known in competitive mons till now i think this is the truth.

 

[Switcout]

It's something that finally got brought to attention, will calyrex be the second pokemon banned to AG this gen?
Calyrex-S even without Boost will easily OHKO most of the metagame

for example if we compare calyrex-shadow's astral barrage damage to top tier uber sets we get
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Kyogre: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 262-310 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 164 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 192-226 (41.5 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 208 HP / 0+ SpD Zygarde: 223-264 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 440-522 (92 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zekrom: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 207-244 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rayquaza: 285-336 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

although some may argue that most of these pokemon aren't one shot by calyrex shadow but the fact that they can't revenge kill calyrex-shadow
and that calyrex forces bad options such as stacking dark types on teams, so the don't. Fall to the mad rabbit's Barrage attackand calyrex-s makes People waste moves lots on less value moves like snarl Yveltal.

 

[Aqua Jet]

how do i vote?

This is a better question for the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread, but you need to create a suspect account with the prefix of UBCS (ex. UBCS Aqua Jet) and then ladder to get a GXE and # of games in line with the hide tag in the original post. Then, post a screenshot of your rank (accessed by doing /rank) in this thread.

 

[SiTuM]

Quick question, on this thread it says you need 30 games, on the voter ID thread it says you need 50? Which one should I be aiming for?

It's 30 games minimum, and you have to be over 84% gxe, after 50 games and so on you only need 80% gxe, so aim for what you can afford

 

[LBN]

While some of these do have the potential to beat Yveltal, I think generally most sets can beat it and naturally most teams do as well. Sub Seed loses to Snarl (p mid move but it has uses vs etern and all calys) and just clicking U-turn into either a scarf pivot like Darm-G, Marshadow if you can break the Sub w U-turn, Ho-Oh, or just something then going back to Yvel to break the sub if the first U-turn doesn't because it doesn't take all that much from +2 barrage since subseed runs phys.def. Trick is annoying but it just forces good play and building with any speed control for insurance (or Zama-C as a Trick absorber). I've been vocal on saying Disable isn't a good set and I don't think it is, I think either regular sash np or specs are just better. Trick Disable sets are just bad because they don't get a set up moveslot that's meaningful, because it needs protect to viably scout Yveltal and if you're predicting Roost just use Psyshock > Disable for coverage. NP Sub Disable only works vs yvel without Knock and FP together which is decently common and also doesn't work vs normals and can be punished by things like U-turn on the Disable turn or just U-turning around like vs. Subseed. Yveltal alone with maybe 1 teammate to revenge since Caly-S has low bulk should be enough in most cases if played relatively well, and that's not even mentioning things like Tyranitar and Zarude which see little but some usage (mostly because Yveltal is just better not entirely because caly things).

I think it also just helps keep things in check. Ubers has always been the broken checks broken tier, and as long as it can be checked by something else broken I think it's fine. Yveltal, Tyranitar, Ho-Oh, Zarude, and Blissey all in some way keep it in check defensively, with a few more Pokemon like Eternatus, Zama-C, and P2 either soft checking Barrage / Trick or just beating it but not being as good. Offensively, Marshadow, Scarf Kyogre, Scarf Darm-G, Weavile, Scarf Xerneas, Giratina-O, and even random things that can live unboosted hits like defensive Kyogre and Groudon with investment all are able to apply enough pressure to neutralize it. Hell, even NDM lives a scarf Barrage always and a specs one more often than not if running max max. Calyrex-S just doesn't have the same potential that other banned Pokemon have due to its way lower bulk, and I just don't see a reason that it should be gone from the tier because it's a manageable threat. It keeps HO in check and can be an overall glue mon with scarf, is a good utility cleric, and just a nice revenge killer. It compresses roles as an offensive Pokemon while not being overbearing, and I really like that quality it has.

Overall, I feel that Calyrex-S rewards skillful gameplay, has viable, competitive counterplay, and since Dynamax was banned has not been powerful enough to come close to banworthy. With all that in mind, I will be voting do not ban on Calyrex-S and hope this can sway some people, as I really think that Ubers should have a higher standard than what Calyrex-S presents and it's a good part of the metagame.

I'm going to coat-tail off some of these because the idea that most Yveltal beat Calyrex-shadow is honestly false now. For starters let me state something right off the bat.

SNARL SUCKS. This is Brick break for SS UU screens level of unreasonable. This move is terrible vs literally everything non named calyrex-shadow and maybe Eternatus, but even then most people would rather U-turn out on that instead to begin with, and having to put that on Yveltal which already is on heavy pressure to begin with is absurd.
Yveltal is one of 3 relevant defog users. Yveltal, Ho-oh, and Landorus-T. Yveltal is pretty solid at this role... when it isn't dirt slow. But now since people have realized Calyrex-Shadow doesn't even need to run Timid, it runs modest specs and does like 40% on average, which is absurd
252+ SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 72 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 154-182 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

When you aren't running max speed on Yveltal, suddenly you lose out on ALOT of offensive/defensive utility. Foul Playing Zekrom, knocking Specs Kyogre, are all hugely important interactions you now lose out on because fast Yveltal simply isn't enough anymore. If you want to still run fast yveltal you must dedicate another slot to either a Shadow Sneak mon, Sucker Punch mon, or a scarfer. And the options for all of these are as follows, descending down based on Viability/Splashability. Top row is Sneakers and bottom row is scarfers.

That's it. These are our options. Marshadow is a top threat, Giratina-Origin i'm personally high on but it's not common, Urshifu isn't splashable whatsoever and also runs CB so you lose 1 sucker 50/50 you lost another Pokemon, also loses to SubDisable. Shedinja is BARELY relevant at best but it's on the VR so I'll count it but it's not good. As for Scarfers, Kyogre is the best one but also has a TON of other sets it would also like to run, sub twave, block cm, specs, cm quick claw, crogre, etc. Darmanitan is self explanitory but it doesn't fit well on Balances and doesn't even kill all the time after rocks either, alongside having net 0 defensive use. Landorus-T is a good scarfer but it limits it on what it would usually do, aka check stuff like Groudon, and has yet to be seen much outside myself.

This is paltry, to put it bluntly. Keep in mind none of these can actually switch in, so this assumes Yveltal took 40% to U-turn out of specs, a pokemon got knocked out, or U-turned out and not even break the Substitute, making Calyrex-Shadow able to just pick one, since U-Turn Sucker Knock Yveltal is rare because it wants to fit Defog to actually do things for the team beyond a Pokemon you merely chuck out when Calyrex-S isn't there, which is what alot of people do because it's just expendable, which tells me you are just barely above not playing a 5v6.

Above all though, what bothers me with Calyrex-shadow the most is no reasonable Yveltal set beats every Calyrex-Shadow. Roost is mandatory, and assuming you want it to be your Defogger, since that opens up building restrictions heavily, leaves you with 2 slots. Knock Snarl is far worse at switching into Specs Calyrex-Shadow and must basically never take more than 10% chip to be at risk of getting 2 tapped. Knock Foul Play loses to HO Calyrex-Shadow (Sash NP Draining Kiss) which is also not as common as FC makes it out to be btw. Knock/FP U-turn also loses to SubDisable Calyrex-Shadow, as U-turn doesn't even break sub and nothing besides Yveltal or Blissey within reason takes 2 Astrals. (I do not consider Tyranitar within reason, same with Zarude, P2 either they are all not relevant and suck) Snarl Sucker Knock does alleviate this issue, yes, but I Can't emphasize enough how much worse team building will get, more than it already is, when I have 4 slots already picked for me before i even open the builder because Yveltal can't fit Defog to beat Calyrex-Shadow on it's own reliably. Calyrex-S simply makes people go to what i consider unreasonable lengths, even by Ubers Standards, to handle it. We do not have the enough viable Scarfers, or Defensive/Offensive capabilities to handle this Pokemon.

On the last thing Fc said about rewarding skillful play. Yes, you do have to make plays right to succeed with Calyrex-Shadow on occasion. But one thing he doesn't mention is just how skewed the risk reward is in Caly-G's favor. If i call it right on Specs Calyrex-Shadow, my Yveltal is now golden (at the expense of something else getting crippled by trick btw) I get it wrong? I die. No questions asked. Max max Sp def NDM is a bad set, it wants at least 36 speed evs to outspeed paralyzed max speed eternatus, so HO sets cant just 2HKO you or free. And even then this requires NDM to be at 100% AND be Timid for even an even chance, which simply put, is rare. Also Scarf Calyrex-Shadow is garbage and should not be run to begin with.
All of these you listed require near max HP to eat a tap from Specs Calyrex.

Specs Caly-S with modest Outspeeds the entire relevant unboosted tier and also OHKOs Zekrom, Max HP Groudon, Defensive Lando-T (99% of them btw), Geomancy Xerneas, a roll on defensive Xerneas (in favor with rocks), Rayquaza, Necrozma-Dusk Mane, DD Zygarde 50% and Zygarde Complete (If you are complete form you are likely not at 100% HP anyway, so the 69%-82% roll is more reasonable than it looks) Specs Kyogre after rocks, Clefable, and obviously Lunala and opposing Calyrex-Shadow. Calrex-Shadow OHKOs 70% of the A- and above VR with rocks

Fully spdef Ferrothorn, Yveltal, Fat Kyogre (barely) and Ho-oh live, while Darmanitan-G and Marshadow threaten to outspeed and kill on near every occasion. (Did you know Darmanitan-Galar Icicle crash doesn't even OHKO Caly?)
252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 264-312 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Frail btw. Can't Take many hits btw.

TLDR: I will be voting BAN on Calyrex-Shadow. It pressures the tier to a degree which leads to needing multiple checks to handle it on most occasions, forces Yveltal to run horrible sets to handle it, and has incredibly skewed Risk-Reward that favors it heavily.

 

[Garrett]

I am a firm believer that Trick 50/50's have become even more uncompetitive thanks to Protect and/or Disable Caly-S. If Caly-S is choice-set, you should have a gameplan about whether Yveltal is your best switch. Until a few months ago, I think it always was. Now we run into the following, modernized crossroad:

• Suppose opposing Caly-S is Specs with Trick + Protect + Disable (set example here).
  • If you don't switch in Yveltal to be "brave" and catch the Trick you haven't seen yet but must fear, Astral Barrage collects a mind game kill.
    • You can't freely go a Normal-type like Blissey because you have no initial reason to know it's not Specs Psyshock, either... because you always have to fear every set initially.
  • So let's say you switch in Yveltal into the Trick. When Yveltal comes into Caly-S in the future, if it attacks, it cannot heal. If it Roosts, it becomes a sitting duck that must switch eventually. The scenario becomes a continuous game of when the Caly-S should Astral predicting the Yveltal to finally switch out with each of these interactions. No Yveltal set stops all this without getting the Trick play right: the initial set guess of Caly-S decided whether your "check" actually checked it. That's not competitive. That's calling heads or tails on a coin before you get to play at all.

1.) To reliably beat Disable sets, it requires 2 Dark moves on Yveltal and it's a must to get the Trick 50/50 onto another one of your mons. If you lose the Trick 50/50, it never mattered that you had 2 Dark moves. That's not competitive.
2.) To reliably beat SubSeed sets, if we generously assume that neither Leech Seed nor Snarl misses, it requires Snarl. Caly-S usually EVs for up to 32 Attack EV invested Yveltal's U-Turn, and Taunt means you must make risky plays long term to stay healthy to avoid Nasty Plot into Astral Barrage (Taunt + Sucker Punch is pretty much never ran). Taunt can still autolose lose to Taunt SubSeed Caly-S (coined by Reje ), where now it's messy 50/50's on both sides about when Yveltal is coming back in. Snarl is the best countermeasure which is absolutely outclassed in every other matchup.

Please, none of this silly bullshit about "but every Caly-S has a weakness." Every Caly-S set you will face requires you, initially, to fear the Caly-S set you lose to the fastest. Ghost-typing with Specs does not discriminate between new and experienced players; you must get a 50/50 play or two right. Caly-S is not a weak mon you can necessarily afford to dance around. The most extreme example of having a SpDef Ho-oh to take a Specs Astral Barrage means you switch out to Yveltal afterward. One double back into Caly-S while Ho-oh has not regenerated up to 100% means you can simply lose to the outlined crossroad above.

This process of gambling on switch-ins is inherently uncompetitive, and is especially now with the discovery of sets which put a newfound stranglehold on what Yveltal's moveslots should be and how careful we must be about letting it use all 4 of its moves. We've seen every kind of setup on balance, and even HO has expanded to running more than just Focus Sash on the mon. Mental Herb with Sub + Disable is a silent killer as much as any other with a direct Nasty Plot option. SubSeed has options, Trick has options, Disable has so many options, and you have the option to get it right or often lose outright because of it.

Ban.

 

[master oden]

Hello, I'd like to provide what I personally believe about calyrex-s.

Calyrex-S is undoubtedly one of the most dangerous Pokemon to ever exist. It has insane attacking stats, a amazing snowballing ability, and one of the best offensive moves in the game in astral barrage. As has been said, these traits warp the Ubers Metagame, but is Calyrex-S...

Broken?
Personally for me, it is not. Calyrex-S is quite lacking in good coverage, so it is not too difficult to answer with specific dark types. However, Calyrex is forcing specific sets from Yveltal, our current best dark type and one of the best Pokemon in the Metagame, just to beat it. This leads into...

Restrictive?
Most definitely. As previously said, Calyrex-S mere presence in team builder forces specific dark type on every single team. This on it's own is fairly restrictive. However, forcing moves such as Snarl to be used to beat certain sets of calyrex. This I believe to be uncompetitive.

Unhealthy?
Yes. Calyrex-S is an unhealthy presence in the Ubers tier due to forcing a dark type with the possibility to beat Calyrex on every viable team, forcing said dark type to run the move Snarl just to beat all of its sets, and even then, can still cripple them with trick which can be taken advantage of with Calyrex-S's teammates.

These factors leave no doubt in my mind that Calyrex-S is an unhealthy presence in the Ubers Metagame, and should be banned.

 

[Reje]

I am a firm believer that Trick 50/50's have become even more uncompetitive thanks to Protect and/or Disable Caly-S. If Caly-S is choice-set, you should have a gameplan about whether Yveltal is your best switch. Until a few months ago, I think it always was. Now we run into the following, modernized crossroad:

• Suppose opposing Caly-S is Specs with Trick + Protect + Disable (set example here).
  • If you don't switch in Yveltal to be "brave" and catch the Trick you haven't seen yet but must fear, Astral Barrage collects a mind game kill.
    • You can't freely go a Normal-type like Blissey because you have no initial reason to know it's not Specs Psyshock, either... because you always have to fear every set initially.
  • So let's say you switch in Yveltal into the Trick. When Yveltal comes into Caly-S in the future, if it attacks, it cannot heal. If it Roosts, it becomes a sitting duck that must switch eventually. The scenario becomes a continuous game of when the Caly-S should Astral predicting the Yveltal to finally switch out with each of these interactions. No Yveltal set stops all this without getting the Trick play right: the initial set guess of Caly-S decided whether your "check" actually checked it. That's not competitive. That's calling heads or tails on a coin before you get to play at all.

1.) To reliably beat Disable sets, it requires 2 Dark moves on Yveltal and it's a must to get the Trick 50/50 onto another one of your mons. If you lose the Trick 50/50, it never mattered that you had 2 Dark moves. That's not competitive.
2.) To reliably beat SubSeed sets, if we generously assume that neither Leech Seed nor Snarl misses, it requires Snarl. Caly-S usually EVs for up to 32 Attack EV invested Yveltal's U-Turn, and Taunt means you must make risky plays long term to stay healthy to avoid Nasty Plot into Astral Barrage (Taunt + Sucker Punch is pretty much never ran). Taunt can still autolose lose to Taunt SubSeed Caly-S (coined by Reje ), where now it's messy 50/50's on both sides about when Yveltal is coming back in. Snarl is the best countermeasure which is absolutely outclassed in every other matchup.

Please, none of this silly bullshit about "but every Caly-S has a weakness." Every Caly-S set you will face requires you, initially, to fear the Caly-S set you lose to the fastest. Ghost-typing with Specs does not discriminate between new and experienced players; you must get a 50/50 play or two right. Caly-S is not a weak mon you can necessarily afford to dance around. The most extreme example of having a SpDef Ho-oh to take a Specs Astral Barrage means you switch out to Yveltal afterward. One double back into Caly-S while Ho-oh has not regenerated up to 100% means you can simply lose to the outlined crossroad above.

This process of gambling on switch-ins is inherently uncompetitive, and is especially now with the discovery of sets which put a newfound stranglehold on what Yveltal's moveslots should be and how careful we must be about letting it use all 4 of its moves. We've seen every kind of setup on balance, and even HO has expanded to running more than just Focus Sash on the mon. Mental Herb with Sub + Disable is a silent killer as much as any other with a direct Nasty Plot option. SubSeed has options, Trick has options, Disable has so many options, and you have the option to get it right or often lose outright because of it.

Ban.

Pretty much agree with everything said here personally. The only times Yveltal is ever viable as a switchin, specifically long term, is if it keeps Heavy-Duty Boots. If it gets tricked, knocked off (realistically this will happen eventually seeing as Yveltal also blanket checks a lot of other mons) or gets a Thunder Wave to the dome, it'll never in any case be a reliable counter or even check anymore. If Yveltal, in a vaccuum, was only used to check Calyrex-Shadow, I'd be fine with it staying. But that's just not the case. For further reference just read the post I replied to, it goes much more in depth and explains it a lot better.

 

[D3NTRR]

I personally think Calyrex-Shadow should be banned, I can't believe it has not been banned already.
First of all Calyrex-Shadow is the most defining Pokémon in all of Ubers.
Secondly it is faster than every Pokémon except Regieleki, Ninjask, and Pheromosa, and Ninjask isn't even good in Ubers.
Finally Calyrex-Shadow can run a set,
Calyrex-Shadow @ Leftovers
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Draining Kiss
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
like this one for example that will out speed It's so called check Yveltal to get up a sub and Nasty Plot up until it gets a ko on Yveltal.
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Yveltal: 106-126 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[TheCounterTeamer]

The long awaited Caly-S suspect is finally here, and funnily enough it has found a way to become even more broken than before due to the advent of the new Sub Disable set, which beats Yveltal in most scenarios. Personally though, I think it is still quite overwhelming. Thanks to a decent amount of coverage it can threaten most of it’s checks with different sets, and the sheer power of Astral Barrage, it can blast through even Yveltal after a little bit of chip. This thing is 15 special attack short of a Deoxys-Attack, and while DoA made up for it’s insane power by having the defensive utility of a wet tissue paper Caly-S can actually tank some attacks as well, and commonly runs Sub to thwart revenge killing attempts from Marshadow and Sucker Punch users.

Random calcs

All calcs are made assuming Specs Leaf Storm Caly-S, but other sets are plenty good too

+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 191-225 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 126-149 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Ttar has no recovery and can be tricked Specs)
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 262-310 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Yveltal U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 76-90 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- 14.9% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 357-423 (89.6 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Shadow in Rain: 301-355 (88.2 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

In summary, pls ban Caly-S, it is quite restrictive on teambuilding and completely warps the meta around it.

Controversial Postscript

Gonna put here that I wouldn’t be opposed to Caly-S staying either. Ubers has always been built around dealing with centralizing threats(looking at you Pdon), and I think that Caly-S is almost like this generation’s Pdon. However, I think that Caly-S may warp the meta a little too much, and I would be fine with Ubers removing it so the meta could settle a bit before gen 9 drops and it becomes and oldgen.

 

[Clas]

usually id do a much neater post but its 4am and i simply dont have the energy to care

It's something that finally got brought to attention, will calyrex be the second pokemon banned to AG this gen?
Calyrex-S even without Boost will easily OHKO most of the metagame

for example if we compare calyrex-shadow's astral barrage damage to top tier uber sets we get
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Kyogre: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 262-310 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 164 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 192-226 (41.5 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 208 HP / 0+ SpD Zygarde: 223-264 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 440-522 (92 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zekrom: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 207-244 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rayquaza: 285-336 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

although some may argue that most of these pokemon aren't one shot by calyrex shadow but the fact that they can't revenge kill calyrex-shadow
and that calyrex forces bad options such as stacking dark types on teams, so the don't. Fall to the mad rabbit's Barrage attackand calyrex-s makes People waste moves lots on less value moves like snarl Yveltal.

these are all 2hkos and so just mean that caly-s cant be checked by these sets (barring eternatus, which here can somewhat as a backup for yveltal, but not exactly consistently because of a funny psychic move)

I personally think Calyrex-Shadow should be banned, I can't believe it has not been banned already.
First of all Calyrex-Shadow is the most defining Pokémon in all of Ubers.
Secondly it is faster than every Pokémon except Regieleki, Ninjask, and Pheromosa, and Ninjask isn't even good in Ubers.
Finally Calyrex-Shadow can run a set,
Calyrex-Shadow @ Leftovers
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Draining Kiss
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
like this one for example that will out speed It's so called check Yveltal to get up a sub and Nasty Plot up until it gets a ko on Yveltal.
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Yveltal: 106-126 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

not a good reason, this set isnt even that good outside of ag as its sole purpose is to have a sash as backup for sucker punch during dmax while 2x100bp fairy move ohkos yveltal, allowing for other stuff yvel checks like lo marsh and dd ndm to break. the set you gave still loses to yveltal as it will never realistically get off a sub, nplot and dkiss before yveltal comes in (and thats without snarl or sucker punch).

aaanyway
i really dont see caly-s as balanced at all, mainly because of the strain it puts on the teambuilder and how little consistent counterplay there is. yveltal will still be used, people please stop thinking it wont be (arceus is gone lmao yveltal/hooh/landot is the choice u make now), but this point is literally just for the people that think that yveltal will cease to exist with caly-s gone.

my main gripe is with the sheer goddamn number of sets u have to consider at preview/egame that forces you to predict right in order to not lose-- oh wait no it doesnt end there because theres also mindgames with trick, sub and disable for if you even guess said set right. we've seen ways of beating stuff like this decently consistently at least, such as scarf and snarl yveltal is this a joke? snarl. why are we using snarl on defensive sets what the fuck zarude at least this one does more than just check the stupid horse and tyranitar (kinda? at least its an answer somewhat).

despite these though, i dont see caly-s as "broken". it doesnt break nearly anything for free like vish or darm-g did in ou or mray in g6/7, and its limited movepool really hinders what it can do without support. that doesnt mean its not overly restrictive, though. having to prep as deep as using snarl yveltal to deal with caly-s consistently proves just how overcentralising the mon is, and forces otherwise absolutely terrible sets on mons to deal with it. it does not help its defensive case that yveltal is shut down as a reliable counter if it has any status effects on it, and cannot be reliably statused either thanks to either aromatherapy or sub just blocking anyway.

for these reasons, i will be voting ban and heavily implore you to do the same (also check out other peoples posts for undoubtedly better reasons i wrote this at a stupid time)

 

[SparksBlade]

It's something that finally got brought to attention, will calyrex be the second pokemon banned to AG this gen?
Calyrex-S even without Boost will easily OHKO most of the metagame

for example if we compare calyrex-shadow's astral barrage damage to top tier uber sets we get
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Kyogre: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery so a 3HKO were ogre can twave or attack it
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 262-310 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery a mon that is absolutely not supposed to stay in vs caly can eat an unboosted hit and twave or knock off
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 164 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 192-226 (41.5 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO another 3HKO with caly using extra pp cos pressure and etern can recover or attack
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 208 HP / 0+ SpD Zygarde: 223-264 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery so zygarde will transform and eat the second hit and will glare the calyrex. also what's this 208HP / 0SpDef Careful zygarde?
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 440-522 (92 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO another mon that is not supposed to check caly. surprised there isn't a calc for lugia or giratina here
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zekrom: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO another mon that is not supposed to check it eating an unboosted hit
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery yet another mon that isn't supposed to check it eating an unboosted hit
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 207-244 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and another mon that is not supposed to check it eating an unboosted hit. also this is the actual calc

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 238-282 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rayquaza: 285-336 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ending with another mon that is not supposed to check it eating an unboosted hit and ohko'ing caly back

although some may argue that most of these pokemon aren't one shot by calyrex shadow but the fact that they can't revenge kill calyrex-shadow
and that calyrex forces bad options such as stacking dark types on teams, so the don't. Fall to the mad rabbit's Barrage attackand calyrex-s makes People waste moves lots on less value moves like snarl Yveltal.

Thought I'll quickly reply to this post cos surprisingly people seem to be taking it seriously, with bunch of calcs vs 0 resists (aka no mons that are actually used to check caly), 1 mon 2x weak, and 1 mon 4x weak to astral barrage.

Also seems to be some disagreement between the pro-ban posts? Quite curious.

 

[SiTuM]

Thought I'll quickly reply to this post cos surprisingly people seem to be taking it seriously, with bunch of calcs vs 0 resists (aka no mons that are actually used to check caly), 1 mon 2x weak, and 1 mon 4x weak to astral barrage.

Also seems to be some disagreement between the pro-ban posts? Quite curious.

good point ! maybe it's because... uh... there are no viable mons that resist astral barrage apart from yveltal???

 

[Switcout]

usually id do a much neater post but its 4am and i simply dont have the energy to care

these are all 2hkos and so just mean that caly-s cant be checked by these sets (barring eternatus, which here can somewhat as a backup for yveltal, but not exactly consistently because of a funny psychic move)


not a good reason, this set isnt even that good outside of ag as its sole purpose is to have a sash as backup for sucker punch during dmax while 2x100bp fairy move ohkos yveltal, allowing for other stuff yvel checks like lo marsh and dd ndm to break. the set you gave still loses to yveltal as it will never realistically get off a sub, nplot and dkiss before yveltal comes in (and thats without snarl or sucker punch).

aaanyway
i really dont see caly-s as balanced at all, mainly because of the strain it puts on the teambuilder and how little consistent counterplay there is. yveltal will still be used, people please stop thinking it wont be (arceus is gone lmao yveltal/hooh/landot is the choice u make now), but this point is literally just for the people that think that yveltal will cease to exist with caly-s gone.

my main gripe is with the sheer goddamn number of sets u have to consider at preview/egame that forces you to predict right in order to not lose-- oh wait no it doesnt end there because theres also mindgames with trick, sub and disable for if you even guess said set right. we've seen ways of beating stuff like this decently consistently at least, such as scarf and snarl yveltal is this a joke? snarl. why are we using snarl on defensive sets what the fuck zarude at least this one does more than just check the stupid horse and tyranitar (kinda? at least its an answer somewhat).

despite these though, i dont see caly-s as "broken". it doesnt break nearly anything for free like vish or darm-g did in ou or mray in g6/7, and its limited movepool really hinders what it can do without support. that doesnt mean its not overly restrictive, though. having to prep as deep as using snarl yveltal to deal with caly-s consistently proves just how overcentralising the mon is, and forces otherwise absolutely terrible sets on mons to deal with it. it does not help its defensive case that yveltal is shut down as a reliable counter if it has any status effects on it, and cannot be reliably statused either thanks to either aromatherapy or sub just blocking anyway.

for these reasons, i will be voting ban and heavily implore you to do the same (also check out other peoples posts for undoubtedly better reasons i wrote this at a stupid time)

: even if it's a 2HKO it's likely that calyrex-S will move first unless something uses sucker punch or shadow sneak
:agree with the 3rd sentence calyrex-s is much less of a one trick pony than most people think given that you have to wonder what moveset calyrex-s is, because it can fit on many teams such as hyper offense teams with choice Scarf and stall teams with sub-seed sets
: again I agree with the point that calyrex isn't broken, it's just unhealthy for the ubers metagame

 

[Fardin]

I think caly is pretty stupid and a lot of the pro unban arguments are a bit flawed so I wanna tackle a few real quick, mainly in fc's post

I just want to quickly disprove this idea that yve is genuinely useful outside of caly while still being a good check to it. It's more used than ttar and zaruda because in a 6v6 scenerio, those 2 are not anywhere as close to reliable as yve.

Zaruda has the shitty bulk and lack of priority to actually wall stuff like sash and to afford the sometimes necessity to not be forced to keep it full at all times with low pp synthesis. With ttar, it's the lack of reliable recovery and the fact that it can't even come into the main fogger of the meta in fear of hdb gone or to get uturned away and chipped to hell. It's just not a pokemon u can afford to run if u wanna wall caly in long games and still win the 6v6 match, hence why its literally never used.

Yve being more useful vs the rest of the meta over those 2 does not make it a genuinely good mon outside of walling caly, it's just the best option people have, I really wanna hone down on this

With that being said, the reason why yve is even deemed useful outside of caly is because the vast majority of people opt in with running 306+ speed with uturn so it's not a deadweight vs most of the mons, but those sets are the exact reason why people complained about caly being too good, cause it's able to get past the cop out yve sets. It's a dumb cycle I've been seeing for a really long time now in the community.

It gets even more annoying when the pro no ban players say "but we have snarl or 3 attack yve or no uturn ones with sucker". Those sets are exactly why yve is a dead weight vs the vast majority of the teams and why people opt for fast uturn ones. Yve is either okay vs rest of the meta, or a really good caly check, u cannot have it both ways.

The entire reason the community wanted a ban is cause people were always forced make a choice, wheter to be weaker to caly in exchange of more in game utility or wall it completely. it's essentially a gamble and a risk and reward people take part in each time they don't run max spdef snarl, even if they try to compensate with scarfers which don't even work

The whole "just build better" points aren't very realistic either. The uturn + scarfer argument is cool, until u face sub disable. it takes very little bulk for caly to live a sub and uturn, and if yve comes in on the turn its subbed, ur kinda fucked cause something is either getting chipped big in yve or u sack a mon. Fc mentioned that set requires protect fsr? That is not true. All protect does it to scout a turn out that u can just imitate by switching out and get caly in again in the future or sub again. If u work out the sequences, the benefits are minimal compared to running np that now changes the game entirely. I don't wanna get into the trick points either cause lbn already defined the problems there well imo

Pretty much every other point that was made was built up on the assumption that the yve sets in the metas are genuinely good outside of caly which I hopefully proved is not the case.

I personally wouldn't want a meta where the entire game comes down to if u can stop this 1 mon before it can 6-0 u, one of the reasons also why i think the game play in ss is so repetitive and numb, caly has a big indirect influence at all times during the game, especially when the set isn't revealed. U could call it broken or nah, but it's without a doubt unhealthy.

With all that being said, caly is obviously less broken than Zac and the meta is at a much better place than it was in the past, and with ss not being a current Gen really soon and the amount of time and effort it takes to even get suspect tests going on in ubers, I highly doubt we'll see any more bans after this one, and for all we know the meta could become objectively worse, but not to the point of an another ban cause Gen 9 will be out soon and the playerbase won't care anymore.

I personally think that should never be considered for bans but this is a pretty unique case so a no ban is probably the right decision. If this was the start of the gen, it would've gotten the hammer tho.

 

[Eledyr]

Hello, Eledyr's back. I am firmly pro-ban; I have already recently explained my position in this long post. I think it is necessary to understand what makes Calyrex-S so oppressive to the metagame, especially with the recent influx of anti-ban sentiment expressed in this thread.

This is one of the big points people focus on, restrictiveness. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a Pokemon near 100% usage, especially if it's actually a good mon outside of having 1 job (Yveltal is an incredible Pokemon, will still be probably top 5 but if not still one of the best without Calyrex-S). Yveltal is good at its job vs. Calyrex-S teams and does well vs teams without it because it has so much utility with Defog, U-turn, and Knock Off being broken. How much something is forced to be used has never been an issue for Ubers, with PDon having around the same usage in the past 2 gens. I've heard arguments around PDon not just being for pogre or not just for Xerneas, which is very true, but that's said with the goal of making it seem like yvel is a bad mon with the same usage because it's only there for 1 purpose. It's a very good Pokemon regardless, this is probably the best gen it could have with no Arceus or Z-moves for Knock Off, and I think having it be centralized is perfectly fine.

Indeed, restrictiveness is not the main point of what makes Calyrex-S ban-worthy, in my opinion. Especially in Ubers, offensive and defensive behemoths are the averages and not the exception. Moreover, Yveltal is an excellent Pokemon, with or without Calyrex-S (I am convinced Yveltal will remain excellent even if Calyrex-S is banned).

While some of these do have the potential to beat Yveltal, I think generally most sets can beat it and naturally most teams do as well. Sub Seed loses to Snarl (p mid-move but it has uses vs etern and all calys)

I find this misleading; not only is Snarl hardly used, but it is also often suboptimal because, as said, Knock Off, U-turn, Defog, etc., are almost always better options. Furthermore, while Yveltal is the best Pokemon of the tier, considering a suboptimal set to beat Calyrex-S reliably is not something that can be considered healthy for the metagame.

and just clicking U-turn into either a scarf pivot like Darm-G, Marshadow if you can break the Sub w U-turn, Ho-Oh, or just something then going back to Yvel to break the sub if the first U-turn doesn't because it doesn't take all that much from +2 barrage since subseed runs Phys.def.

Again, this is said considering every team runs Ho-Oh, and moreover, it is said considering Ho-Oh isn't punished by Calyrex-S; considering the stats below (taken from smogon stats),

stats

Ho-Oh has roughly 15%-20% of usages, thus combined with a 36% usages of Whirlwind. It means Ho-Oh will reliably Phaze Calyrex-S on average 8% of the games at maximum, and whether it is Whirlwind or not, staying in exposes it to a +2 Astral Barrage - something Ho-Oh certainly does not appreciate at all. +2 76 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 279-328 (67.2 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO This is because both Yveltal and Ho-Oh are still healthy; both are prone to take damages and super crippled by Stealth Rock damages, which means they both have to avoid all Knock Off. Moreover, considering Yveltal break Calyrex-S Substitute, the number of viable revenge killers is limited, the most reliables being Marshadow, Giratina-O, and Choice Scarf Galarian Darmanitan. This severely limits your options, and if you do not have any of them? Calyrex will pick a KO, because nothing in the tier can survive a +2 Astral Barrage, unless you are named Yveltal or Blissey. You could reply to me that it still lets many options while facing Calyrex-S, but the problem here is we are only speaking about ONE set.

Trick is annoying but it just forces good play and building with any speed control for insurance (or Zama-C as a Trick absorber).

The problem with saying that is it's said like if Calyrex was in 1v6, which is obviously wrong. Even if Trick does not hit Yveltal, since Zama-C is the only "reliable" Trick absorber (which takes a ton from Specs Astral Barrage), it will still let one Pokemon as a deadweight almost every time. This can leads to nasty setups with teammates like Calm Mind Kyogre or Demon Eternatus that can easily take advantage of a Choice Locked Necrozma-DM / Eternatus. Furthermore, the thing is, the risk-reward of using Trick, even on the wrong target, will always create a hole in the opposing defensive backbone that the rest of the team can usually take advantage of.

I've been vocal on saying Disable isn't a good set and I don't think it is, I think either regular sash np or specs are just better. Trick Disable sets are just bad because they don't get a set up moveslot that's meaningful, because it needs Protect to viably scout Yveltal and if you're predicting Roost just use Psyshock > Disable for coverage. NP Sub Disable only works vs yvel without Knock and FP together which is decently common and also doesn't work vs normals and can be punished by things like U-turn on the Disable turn or just U-turning around like vs. Subseed. Yveltal alone with maybe 1 teammate to revenge since Caly-S has low bulk should be enough in most cases if played relatively well, and that's not even mentioning things like Tyranitar and Zarude which see little but some usage (mostly because Yveltal is just better not entirely because caly things).

UH. This truly is a horrible take in my opinion. Not only was Disable used and won in UPL, but it aims at targets that Sash sets or Psychock cannot beat. Again, I am redirecting people to Manaphy's post, which explained in detail how to use Disable efficiently.

Aside from that, which are the main things, I talked about tiering policy in one of my other posts I linked. It's a touchy subject, especially for users since it isn't clearly defined even though we tried to, but I'll give my 2 cents on it as tier leader. I believe that to be banned from Ubers, a Pokemon or strategy should either be completely uncompetitive (STag, Baton Pass) or have counterplay that requires using unviable Pokemon / completely unreliable counterplay that limits the skill presented in-game (Zacian-C needing Quagsire or it's an Assurance 50/50-fest, Zacian-H just 2HKO'ing the entirety of the game no exceptions with Choice Band predictions). There may be a few small exceptions to this that I'm forgetting, but I don't think Calyrex-S falls under any of these. I think that Calyrex-S has incredibly viable counterplay as well as a decent enough variety even though I don't care about that personally. [...] I've never felt that as overwhelming as anything in the past like Zacian-C just sweeping a whole team if it clicks Assurance right since it hardly does damage to Yvel with no specs and needs multiple correct plays and to not get punished for predicting.

That's the part that I want to emphasize. I don't understand why Ubers have this special treatment about tiering. Being the highest tier in the game doesn't mean you have to accept to play with unhealthy Pokemon that forces teambuilding to the point where even with multiple checks, you can still lose because eh, you didn't cover the one that beats you, which is exactly what Calyrex-S is about. Especially, "have counterplay that requires using unviable Pokemon / unreliable counterplay" is the textbook definition of QUICKBAN in other tiers, again there's absolutely no logic in that except "it's Ubers, we want to play with broken mons", which is something I don't agree at all, Ubers is not Anything Goes. Finally, the last sentence is what worries me the most. If people consider that we have to deal with Zacian levels of power to be banned from Ubers, then I understand why Calyrex-S took so long to be suspect tested. I'm not pro "ban everything", I want a tier where creativity and skill is rewarded, and Calyrex-S limits creativity.

I think it also just helps keep things in check. Ubers has always been the broken checks broken tier, and as long as it can be checked by something else broken I think it's fine. Yveltal, Tyranitar, Ho-Oh, Zarude, and Blissey all in some way keep it in check defensively, with a few more Pokemon like Eternatus, Zama-C, and P2 either soft checking Barrage / Trick or just beating it but not being as good. Offensively, Marshadow, Scarf Kyogre, Scarf Darm-G, Weavile, Scarf Xerneas, Giratina-O, and even random things that can live unboosted hits like defensive Kyogre and Groudon with investment all are able to apply enough pressure to neutralize it. Hell, even NDM lives a scarf Barrage always and a specs one more often than not if running max max. Calyrex-S just doesn't have the same potential that other banned Pokemon have due to its way lower bulk, and I just don't see a reason that it should be gone from the tier because it's a manageable threat. It keeps HO in check and can be an overall glue mon with scarf, is a good utility cleric, and just a nice revenge killer. It compresses roles as an offensive Pokemon while not being overbearing, and I really like that quality it has.

This has nothing to do with the tiering policy; even if the tier is in a unstable balance, I don't see any reason to keep it as it is. It's the exact same argument as "Stall will be broken if we ban Dracovish from OU", back in the days. This is a feeble argument as we cannot know how the tier is gonna evolve. Furthermore, the problem with Calyrex-S is not about how manageable it is, because each of its sets are manageable one-on-one; it's about the surprise factor Calyrex-S has, with is an unfair advantage in the fast-paced metagame SS Ubers is currently.

I highly doubt we'll see any more bans after this one, and for all we know the meta could become objectively worse, but not to the point of an another ban cause Gen 9 will be out soon and the playerbase won't care anymore.

I personally think that should never be considered for bans but this is a pretty unique case so a no ban is probably the right decision. If this was the start of the gen, it would've gotten the hammer tho.

Concerning Fardin’s post, the result of this suspect test should not be contingent on when it was conducted. The general Ubers community player base wanted a Caly-S suspect test as early as the beginning of DLC 2 after Dynamax got banned. The reason why Calyrex-S finally got suspected now is because of metagame development. Moreover, the metagame evolved to the point where people shifted from using Scarf Caly to more Specs and Subseed on Balance & from using Sash Caly exclusively on HO to more demonic Sub Disable variants. I disagree with the notion of no ban because there are a few months before the next generation releases. There was plenty of time for a suspect test, but the metagame has shown time and time again just how oppressive Calyrex-S truly is. To conclude, I want to reaffirm that I am pro-ban. This Pokemon offers way too many options and combines way too many possibilities, making it a restrictive and unhealthy Pokemon.

 

[Moyashi]

That's the part that I want to emphasize. I don't understand why Ubers have this special treatment about tiering. Being the highest tier in the game doesn't mean you have to accept to play with unhealthy Pokemon that forces teambuilding to the point where even with multiple checks, you can still lose because eh, you didn't cover the one that beats you, which is exactly what Calyrex-S is about. Especially, "have counterplay that requires using unviable Pokemon / unreliable counterplay" is the textbook definition of QUICKBAN in other tiers, again there's absolutely no logic in that except "it's Ubers, we want to play with broken mons", which is something I agree at all, Ubers is not Anything Goes. Finally, the last sentence is what worries me the most. If people consider that we have to deal with Zacian levels of power to be banned from Ubers, then I understand why Calyrex-S took so long to be suspect tested. I'm not pro "ban everything", I want a tier where creativity and skill is rewarded, and Calyrex-S limits creativity.

There's a lot of stuff in the thread that I've disagreed with so far but this is something I especially want to highlight and talk about, as it's pertinent go why CalyrexS shouldn't be banned.

Ubers is the tier with the fewest bans and it's the place with the highest power level. So much power that it's never been uncommon for pokemon here to be able to beat their own checks with set and EV tweaking. CalyS has certainly proven it can accomplish this vs its greatest nemesis Yveltal, but there's a very big difference with this situation vs ZacianC who also could best its supposed checks. ZacianC turned games into 50/50 guessfests with assurance and reduced skill and game quality with its presence. It wasn't just that it was obscenely strong. CalyS isn't at that level of breaking the tier. It's strong, the most centralizing force around. But does it decrease game quality? Is it reducing the skill level of games? I don't think so.

Furthermore, the thing is, the risk-reward of using Trick, even on the wrong target, will always create a hole in the opposing defensive backbone that the rest of the team can usually take advantage of.

This is true of any choice user in any tier. The power level of Ubers simply amplifies the effect of this even more because of the centralized nature of the tier. Big threats enabling other big threats even in situations like this doesn't make them broken. Well, maybe in low tiers. But if we're talking about Ubers, there needs to be much better reasoning. And speaking of which...

UH. This truly is a horrible take in my opinion. Not only was Disable used and won in UPL, but it aims at targets that Sash sets or Psychock cannot beat. Again, I am redirecting people to Manaphy's post, which explained in detail how to use Disable efficiently.

I'm still unconvinced by the arguments around disable sets. The set winning in UPL proves it can still tech to beat its checks. But... So? So can many mons in Ubers. Historically so. The disable sets are the main thing I see people claiming pushes it over the edge, because it means no Yveltal is perfectly able to answer CalyS. And maybe that's true, but that's not unique to CalyS. Eternatus cannot be called a perfect or even that great of a Kyogre answer as it's possible to become set up fodder for certain CM sets (block CM) if it doesn't pack dragon tail. Other mons used to try and hand Ogre also struggle vs specs (even utility umbrella Blissey struggles when rocks are up).

Yes CalyS can beat its checks with the right set. But it has to be played well to do so. As was pointed out by Fc, it actually promotes skillful gameplay. It's not just some brainless threat like a certain wolf could be. There should be a higher standard for bans in Ubers than "it's restrictive and seriously strong. It can beat its best checks with certain sets" because many Uber pokemon can.

You say you don't understand why Ubers has this special treatment about tiering, but it is exactly because the tier allows as much as it does, that it's treated so different and special, that the tier has potentially the highest skill ceiling and quality of games. To ban something from Ubers, it should be destroying the balance of the tier like dynamax did. Or it should be uncompetitive like shadow tag which removed player autonomy from games, or how baton pass removed player interaction from games. And when it comes to actual pokemon bans, it should at least meet some kind of similar bar.

When Mega Rayquaza was banned in ORAS, it did so much to damage the tier, an impact I'd argue has yet to be matched. It was so good It made other megas obsolete. It invalidated playstyles. Your team was worse for not running it. And game quality was reduced tremendously while it was around.

ZacianC was straightforward in comparison but it too reduced game quality and forced overtly restrictive cores as a result of its power. And even then it wasn't enough as games came down to assurance 50/50s that were extraordinarily in the Zac players favor. While ZacianH was just too powerful right out. And was one prediction away from breaking a hole.

Calyrex-Shadow is undeniably restrictive and it has tools to beat its checks, even its best counter. But it can't just click buttons to do so. Games aren't down to skill less 50/50s. At least I don't think so. I find that skill is rewarded with CalyS and that it doesn't lower game quality. The logic used to ban CalyS isn't that different from logic used for OU bans. And that would just set the bar lower for what could be considered a problem in Ubers.

Finally, SwSh Ubers was dealt a rough hand through many circumstances, and it definitely sucks. But banning Calyrex-S isn't gonna magically improve that. Especially as it provides healthy and valuable qualities to the tier (reigning in HO, rare utility, speed control) that would go away if it left the tier. I don't think it's worth it especially when I find the mon doesn't hit the bar for banworthy in Ubers.

 

[Chogster]

Personally, I think Calyrex-Shadow should be banned.

The main reason is that in my opinion, it not only invalidates certain bulky Pokemon that are 1 or 2 hit ko-ed by specs Astaral Barage, but it invalidates certain team styles to a degree. Let me explain: Calyrex-Shadow basically requires teams to have Yveltal, and for team styles that before Calyex shadow hardly needed a Yveltal, they now must run a Yveltal. The best example is stall. Personally, I don't see stall as much in ubers and it is clear to see why. Calyrex Shadow destroys stall. The first Pokemon you may bring up are Blissey and Chansey. However, Blissey is always 2 hit ko-ed by specs psyshock and Chansey is always 2 hit ko-ed after rocks OR Calyrex-Shadow could just trick a choice specs or scarf onto these walls, crippling them.

A good comparison to Calyrex-Shadow is Ash Greninja in Gen 7 OU since players were forced to put checks to both on their team. Ash Greninja had many great checks to it that one would put on their team anyway, so it wasn't really limiting, yet even Ash Greninja had talks of a ban. Calyrex Shadow has only one good check that all players MUST have on their team, or their team is nearly unviable which is Yveltal. And while Yveltal is a good Pokemon that many would likely use without Calyrex-Shadow's existence, it limits other great flying type Pokemon such as Lugia, Ho-oh, and Landorus-Therian. And while many would use Yveltal anyway, certainly not everybody would, the fact that everybody must use a team slot on Yveltal just to make sure they are not crushed by Calyrex-Shadow means that this Pokemon is very limiting in the teambuilder.

tl;dr: Calyrex-Shadow is way to limiting to Gen 8 ubers

 

[KanzakiHAria]

BAN CALYREX SHADOW

252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 128-151 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 140-165 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 85-101 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.2%) -- 92.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 118-140 (30 - 35.6%) -- 32.2% chance to 3HKO

Then, as a team builder, you need to win in Bo1 game. When you face calyrex-s, how much energy do you need to spend on it when prepare your team ,so that it doesn't defeat your team?
You need to fight kyogre, xerneas and eternatus. Groudon and zekrom on the physical side are also threats. You can't fight them with one team.
When building a team, how should we consider the competitiveness of the team rather than match up？

 

[Royal1604]

Ok Ok, my turn to have fun with this one.
First of all i would like to remind Fc that i was one of the 1st to ask for this suspect test after Zac-C got banned (Ty for enduring my HL's all days <3)

Calyrex-S is way too restrictive, because despite his poor coverage, the combination of Trick, NP and SubSeed is just too much.
Every game you load you're praying he doesn't have the set that 6-0 your team.

The SubSeed set especially is a pain to build with. A few months ago, it was litteraly everywhere in tour games. So people started playing Zarude, which was a very good Pokemon against this set. So people stopped playing SubSeed, but Zarude was still here, just in case. And now Zarude has close to 0% usage in tour games. Why ? Because this Pokemon is useless appart from this role. If the Caly is not SubSeed you're basically playing 5vs6 (OK that's not 100% accurate, but you see the idea).

I also agree with LBN, Snarl yveltal is not a viable option. There is so much more usefull moves on Yveltal, you don't want to waste a slot with a useless move like snarl.

So is Calyrex-S broken ? Probably not. I agree with Fc on many points, if you're playing a game where you have the right check to Calyrex-S set, this is 100% skill reward, with all the Trick 50/50 etc.

I really think Yveltal will remain a S-tier Pokemon if Caly-S is banned, we'll see much more offensive Yveltals and this would really change the teambuild.

Last but not least, please don't post random calcs, like who cares about Calyrex-S OSing x4 weakness Lunala

As a surprise for everybody, i'll vote BAN (if i reach the reqs lmao)

P.S.: 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shedinja: 2546-2996 (254600 - 299600%) -- guaranteed OHKO OMG THIS IS BROKEN

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

I never even knew what gamefreak was doing when they decided to balance this Pokémon.

It has a ton of speed, which means that unless you have a super bulky dark-type, you gotta revenge kill it. And to revenge kill it, you need a priority move because you cannot not assume it’s scarf, else it gets +2 SPATK. And it runs substitute, trick or recently disable.

And for super bulky dark-types, the most popular is Yveltal, which gets fucked by trick followed by disable, and SubSeed (CalyS nowadays invest in enough bulk to survive a Defensive Yveltal U-Turn. What will Yveltal do with Choice Item and disable? If they have an actual working brain, they will switch out, and then you can hit the switch-in for a ton of damage with astral barrage, and if the switch in dies, it will get a +1 SPA boost, plus their Yveltal has lost its boosts and loses 25% damage from rocks. If you predict they snarl, you can switch out.

I prefer T-Tar because it can beat both sash, and I run AV for it, so when it tricks, it cannot disable, but AV T-Tar cant do much other then wall Clay-S bc it’s weak to many special attacks.


I have not even mentioned how CalyS forces us to use Yveltal/T-Tar + Necrozma-DM AND Eternatus. Sure, it’s a good defensive core and can beat most viable CalyS offensive cores, but it takes up half of our team slots. And if you rely on Marshadow or Urshifu-S to kill it, your team is basically bad, and the latter can be played around easily. You need to add these checks on top of the Y/TEN core. That takes up another team slot.
Fun Fact: Did you know that CalyS has many viable sets that beat each other’s counters? You literally have to guess which set it is. Sure, you can look at the other Team Members but it’s never 100% guranteed you will guess the correct set, and if you don’t guess the correct set, say goodbye.

Especially as it provides healthy and valuable qualities to the tier (reigning in HO, rare utility, speed control) that would go away if it left the tier.

That is a trash excuse. If we ban it, find a new Pokémon for those roles, it’s better than having to waste at least half of our team to build a good team.
Also I’m too busy lol, I can’t vote, I don’t feel like it, I’m just saying why you should ban Caly-S.

 

[DerpySuX]

I do not think Calyrex S should be banned from Ubers.

Now, I want to preface this by saying that I am NOT a well versed Ubers player. I do, however have some experience playing in metas with Calyrex and what the Pokémon can do to said meta. Aaanyway, here are my thoughts.

Ubers has always been the tier you play when you want to use the broken legendaries, it has always had the fewest restrictions of any competitive tier, and that’s what makes it special. For a Pokémon to get banned from Ubers, it has to have an apparent, undeniably negative impact on the tier. I don’t think Calyrex does that, even remotely so.

Arguments that Calyrex can tweak its set to bypass its checks are inherently flawed in my opinion, as, at least in my experience, this has always been the nature of Uber Pokémon. Why is Calyrex a special case for this? I could make a laundry list of mons that are notorious for the exact same thing, yet aren’t considered a problem in Ubers.

Furthermore, I’ve seen people making arguments that Yveltal having such high usage is solely because of Calyrex’s presence, and quite frankly, I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Now, it’s no doubt that the presence of Calyrex does contribute to Yveltal’s usage, but Yveltal is not solely a Calyrex switch in. It is a terrific Pokémon in it’s own right, and in my opinion, would still have high usage even without Calyrex.

I simply do not think that Calyrex meets the bar to warrant being banned from Ubers, the tier is no stranger to heavily centralizing forces. Banning things because “they have no true counters” seems very much against the spirit of the tier.

Thank you for reading my ramblings :)

 

[Eledyr]

There's a lot of stuff in the thread that I've disagreed with so far but this is something I especially want to highlight and talk about, as it's pertinent go why CalyrexS shouldn't be banned.

Ubers is the tier with the fewest bans and it's the place with the highest power level. So much power that it's never been uncommon for pokemon here to be able to beat their own checks with set and EV tweaking. CalyS has certainly proven it can accomplish this vs its greatest nemesis Yveltal, but there's a very big difference with this situation vs ZacianC who also could best its supposed checks. ZacianC turned games into 50/50 guessfests with assurance and reduced skill and game quality with its presence. It wasn't just that it was obscenely strong. CalyS isn't at that level of breaking the tier. It's strong, the most centralizing force around. But does it decrease game quality? Is it reducing the skill level of games? I don't think so.

Indeed, the big difference with Zacian-C is As One which allows Calyrex-S to simply snowball the game and end it sooner than it should. Why ? Because Ghost-type resists are almost inexistant in the tier, thus combined with the stellar speed Calyrex-S has. So saying "Caly isn't at the level of breaking the tier" where any teams with their Caly answer down are super likely to lose feels somewhat unjustified. And again, I don't get why people are speaking about the quality of games and skill, the problem with it is, I repeat, the initial surprise factor Calyrex-S has. Speaking of it,

This is true of any choice user in any tier. The power level of Ubers simply amplifies the effect of this even more because of the centralized nature of the tier. Big threats enabling other big threats even in situations like this doesn't make them broken. Well, maybe in low tiers. But if we're talking about Ubers, there needs to be much better reasoning. And speaking of which...

I'm still unconvinced by the arguments around disable sets. The set winning in UPL proves it can still tech to beat its checks. But... So? So can many mons in Ubers. Historically so. The disable sets are the main thing I see people claiming pushes it over the edge, because it means no Yveltal is perfectly able to answer CalyS. And maybe that's true, but that's not unique to CalyS. Eternatus cannot be called a perfect or even that great of a Kyogre answer as it's possible to become set up fodder for certain CM sets (block CM) if it doesn't pack dragon tail. Other mons used to try and hand Ogre also struggle vs specs (even utility umbrella Blissey struggles when rocks are up).


Yes CalyS can beat its checks with the right set. But it has to be played well to do so. As was pointed out by Fc, it actually promotes skillful gameplay. It's not just some brainless threat like a certain wolf could be. There should be a higher standard for bans in Ubers than "it's restrictive and seriously strong. It can beat its best checks with certain sets" because many Uber pokemon can.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The meta is so fast-paced, Trick is a tool way too powerful, especially because there is no reliable Trick absorber (calling Zama-C a "reliable" Trick absorber is actually really bad, considering how much it takes from Specs Astral Barrage). BasedWhat? explained it very well again (and explained further more why Disable is a problem). I don't understand why do people keep on defending Calyrex-S since it can even beat its most reliable check. And no, we can't compare Kyogre to Calyrex-S, it's one of the most misleading argument here, because the former one doesn't have the tools to 6-0 teams once its defensive checks are down, which are a snowballing ability and a stellar speed. And again, "promoting skillful gameplay" has nothing to do with tiering policy, what matters is the potential a Pokemon has to be all at once uncompetitive, restrictive, unhealthy and "broken". And Calyrex-S is clearly both restrictive and unhealthy.

You say you don't understand why Ubers has this special treatment about tiering, but it is exactly because the tier allows as much as it does, that it's treated so different and special, that the tier has potentially the highest skill ceiling and quality of games. To ban something from Ubers, it should be destroying the balance of the tier like dynamax did. Or it should be uncompetitive like shadow tag which removed player autonomy from games, or how baton pass removed player interaction from games. And when it comes to actual pokemon bans, it should at least meet some kind of similar bar.

When Mega Rayquaza was banned in ORAS, it did so much to damage the tier, an impact I'd argue has yet to be matched. It was so good It made other megas obsolete. It invalidated playstyles. Your team was worse for not running it. And game quality was reduced tremendously while it was around.
ZacianC was straightforward in comparison but it too reduced game quality and forced overtly restrictive cores as a result of its power. And even then it wasn't enough as games came down to assurance 50/50s that were extraordinarily in the Zac players favor. While ZacianH was just too powerful right out. And was one prediction away from breaking a hole.

Calyrex-Shadow is undeniably restrictive and it has tools to beat its checks, even its best counter. But it can't just click buttons to do so. Games aren't down to skill less 50/50s. At least I don't think so. I find that skill is rewarded with CalyS and that it doesn't lower game quality. The logic used to ban CalyS isn't that different from logic used for OU bans. And that would just set the bar lower for what could be considered a problem in Ubers.

I literally explained my position about that in the post you quoted. There's no reason to keep it in the tier, and for god sake no, it's not because Calyrex-S is not a completely brainless mons that it should be kept in the tier, this is one of the most feeble argument you can use, and it's far from what tiering policy is.

Finally, SwSh Ubers was dealt a rough hand through many circumstances, and it definitely sucks. But banning Calyrex-S isn't gonna magically improve that. Especially as it provides healthy and valuable qualities to the tier (reigning in HO, rare utility, speed control) that would go away if it left the tier. I don't think it's worth it especially when I find the mon doesn't hit the bar for banworthy in Ubers.

This again has nothing to do tiering policy and this is the exact argument Fc used in his post, I won't repeat myself with what I said concerning Fc's post. Short story long, if the meta is in an unstable balance, then it will evolve and we'll see later which mons are problematic. Right now we are dealing with Calyrex-S, and what "qualities" it has isn't what interest us in the tiering policy.