Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - Crown Tundra [Zacian-Hero Banned]

[Fc]

The final seasonal usage stats are here!

Round 12

SSNL R12

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   25 |  96.15% |  52.00% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |   23 |  88.46% |  52.17% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   16 |  61.54% |  43.75% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |    9 |  34.62% |  55.56% |
| 5    | Ho-Oh              |    8 |  30.77% |  62.50% |
| 5    | Zacian             |    8 |  30.77% |  37.50% |
| 7    | Blissey            |    7 |  26.92% |  71.43% |
| 7    | Tangrowth          |    7 |  26.92% |  57.14% |
| 9    | Marshadow          |    6 |  23.08% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Zekrom             |    5 |  19.23% |  60.00% |
| 10   | Zygarde            |    5 |  19.23% |  40.00% |
| 12   | Xerneas            |    4 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 13   | Groudon            |    3 |  11.54% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Lunala             |    3 |  11.54% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Landorus           |    2 |   7.69% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Excadrill          |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Tyranitar          |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Ferrothorn         |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Calyrex-Ice        |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Kyogre             |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Slurpuff           |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Ditto              |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Galvantula         |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 23   | Thundurus-Therian  |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 23   | Toxapex            |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 23   | Zarude             |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Dracovish          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Kyurem-Black       |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Palkia             |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Klefki             |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Mew                |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |

Round 13

SSNL R13

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |   20 |  90.91% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   19 |  86.36% |  52.63% |
| 3    | Ho-Oh              |   11 |  50.00% |  63.64% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   11 |  50.00% |  45.45% |
| 5    | Calyrex-Shadow     |    8 |  36.36% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Zacian             |    7 |  31.82% |  71.43% |
| 7    | Lunala             |    6 |  27.27% |  66.67% |
| 8    | Shedinja           |    4 |  18.18% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |    4 |  18.18% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Tangrowth          |    4 |  18.18% |  25.00% |
| 11   | Palkia             |    3 |  13.64% |  66.67% |
| 11   | Clefable           |    3 |  13.64% |  33.33% |
| 11   | Toxapex            |    3 |  13.64% |  33.33% |
| 11   | Ferrothorn         |    3 |  13.64% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Groudon            |    2 |   9.09% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Marshadow          |    2 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Kyogre             |    2 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Slurpuff           |    2 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Zekrom             |    2 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Landorus           |    2 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Blissey            |    2 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Zarude-Dada        |    1 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Shuckle            |    1 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Regieleki          |    1 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Urshifu-*          |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Dracovish          |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Ditto              |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Xatu               |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Tyranitar          |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Chansey            |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Galvantula         |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Xerneas            |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Mewtwo             |    1 |   4.55% |   0.00% |

Finals

SSNL Finals

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |    8 | 100.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |    6 |  75.00% |  66.67% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |    5 |  62.50% |  60.00% |
| 4    | Blissey            |    4 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Calyrex-Shadow     |    3 |  37.50% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Ho-Oh              |    3 |  37.50% |  66.67% |
| 7    | Magnezone          |    2 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Calyrex-Ice        |    2 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Slurpuff           |    2 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Tangrowth          |    2 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Marshadow          |    1 |  12.50% | 100.00% |
| 11   | Zygarde            |    1 |  12.50% | 100.00% |
| 11   | Tyranitar          |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Suicune            |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Excadrill          |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Cloyster           |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Zacian-*           |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Xerneas-*          |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Kyogre             |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Groudon            |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Zarude             |    1 |  12.50% |   0.00% |

Cumulative

Cumulative Stats

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            | 1048 |  88.07% |  49.81% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |  992 |  83.36% |  51.61% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |  715 |  60.08% |  52.73% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |  494 |  41.51% |  49.19% |
| 5    | Zacian             |  373 |  31.34% |  51.21% |
| 6    | Kyogre             |  365 |  30.67% |  44.11% |
| 7    | Xerneas            |  358 |  30.08% |  50.28% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |  294 |  24.71% |  48.30% |
| 9    | Ho-Oh              |  290 |  24.37% |  55.17% |
| 10   | Groudon            |  203 |  17.06% |  51.72% |
| 11   | Zekrom             |  178 |  14.96% |  48.88% |
| 12   | Blissey            |  152 |  12.77% |  46.71% |
| 13   | Ferrothorn         |  145 |  12.18% |  48.97% |
| 14   | Marshadow          |  135 |  11.34% |  48.89% |
| 15   | Tangrowth          |  118 |   9.92% |  55.08% |
| 15   | Shuckle            |  118 |   9.92% |  51.69% |
| 17   | Lunala             |   87 |   7.31% |  48.28% |
| 18   | Regieleki          |   84 |   7.06% |  45.24% |
| 19   | Ditto              |   82 |   6.89% |  51.22% |
| 20   | Gothitelle         |   73 |   6.13% |  50.68% |
| 21   | Palkia             |   64 |   5.38% |  35.94% |
| 22   | Urshifu-*          |   48 |   4.03% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Rayquaza           |   44 |   3.70% |  59.09% |
| 24   | Grimmsnarl         |   38 |   3.19% |  55.26% |
| 25   | Shedinja           |   37 |   3.11% |  51.35% |
| 25   | Dracovish          |   37 |   3.11% |  43.24% |
| 27   | Slurpuff           |   36 |   3.03% |  58.33% |
| 28   | Excadrill          |   29 |   2.44% |  58.62% |
| 28   | Aerodactyl         |   29 |   2.44% |  55.17% |
| 30   | Tyranitar          |   27 |   2.27% |  44.44% |
| 31   | Darmanitan-Galar   |   26 |   2.18% |  26.92% |
| 32   | Galvantula         |   22 |   1.85% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Giratina-Origin    |   21 |   1.76% |  66.67% |
| 34   | Froslass           |   20 |   1.68% |  65.00% |
| 34   | Landorus           |   20 |   1.68% |  55.00% |
| 36   | Pheromosa          |   19 |   1.60% |  47.37% |
| 37   | Calyrex-Ice        |   18 |   1.51% |  38.89% |
| 38   | Toxapex            |   16 |   1.34% |  50.00% |
| 39   | Amoonguss          |   14 |   1.18% |  35.71% |
| 40   | Ribombee           |   12 |   1.01% |  33.33% |
| 40   | Landorus-Therian   |   12 |   1.01% |  25.00% |
| 42   | Zarude-Dada        |   11 |   0.92% |  72.73% |
| 43   | Gastrodon          |   10 |   0.84% |  70.00% |
| 43   | Buzzwole           |   10 |   0.84% |  50.00% |
| 43   | Zarude             |   10 |   0.84% |  50.00% |
| 43   | Mewtwo             |   10 |   0.84% |  40.00% |
| 47   | Barraskewda        |    9 |   0.76% |  33.33% |
| 48   | Lugia              |    8 |   0.67% |  75.00% |
| 48   | Dugtrio            |    8 |   0.67% |  50.00% |
| 48   | Kyurem-Black       |    8 |   0.67% |  37.50% |
| 51   | Magearna           |    7 |   0.59% |  28.57% |
| 51   | Mew                |    7 |   0.59% |  14.29% |
| 51   | Genesect           |    7 |   0.59% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Dialga             |    6 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Klefki             |    6 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Suicune            |    6 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Clefable           |    6 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Chansey            |    6 |   0.50% |  33.33% |
| 54   | Corviknight        |    6 |   0.50% |  33.33% |
| 54   | Porygon2           |    6 |   0.50% |  16.67% |
| 61   | Jirachi            |    5 |   0.42% | 100.00% |
| 61   | Arcanine           |    5 |   0.42% |  40.00% |
| 63   | Melmetal           |    4 |   0.34% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Zamazenta-Crowned  |    4 |   0.34% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Victini            |    4 |   0.34% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Thundurus-Therian  |    4 |   0.34% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Cloyster           |    4 |   0.34% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Kyurem-White       |    4 |   0.34% |  25.00% |
| 69   | Hydreigon          |    3 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Rillaboom          |    3 |   0.25% |  66.67% |
| 69   | Tapu Koko          |    3 |   0.25% |  66.67% |
| 69   | Magnezone          |    3 |   0.25% |  66.67% |
| 69   | Pelipper           |    3 |   0.25% |  33.33% |
| 69   | Solgaleo           |    3 |   0.25% |  33.33% |
| 69   | Xatu               |    3 |   0.25% |  33.33% |
| 69   | Cinderace          |    3 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Wobbuffet          |    2 |   0.17% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Lycanroc           |    2 |   0.17% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Quagsire           |    2 |   0.17% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Hatterene          |    2 |   0.17% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Azelf              |    2 |   0.17% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Reshiram           |    2 |   0.17% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Dracozolt          |    2 |   0.17% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Kartana            |    2 |   0.17% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Regidrago          |    2 |   0.17% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Giratina           |    2 |   0.17% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Magnemite          |    2 |   0.17% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Raichu-Alola       |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 88   | Skarmory           |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 88   | Marowak-Alola      |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 88   | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 88   | Hippowdon          |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 88   | Nidoking           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Diggersby          |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Rhydon             |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Zapdos-Galar       |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Zamazenta          |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Accelgor           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Dragonite          |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Rotom-Frost        |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Sirfetch’d         |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Heatran            |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Blacephalon        |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Venusaur           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Zacian-*           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Xerneas-*          |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |

| 88 | Sirfetch’d | 1 | 0.08% | 0.00% |

A moment of silence for the fetch'd.

Anyway, for the rest of the stats, it ended pretty much as expected. Yveltal and NDM much higher than the rest, somewhat surprising imo that yvel was higher since ndm started getting more through the mid-late tour, but regardless both super high. Most high usage mons hit consistently around 50% or a bit higher/lower so nothing super notable, just wanna point out a few fun stats.


| 42 | Zarude-Dada | 11 | 0.92% | 72.73% |
Broken dada having some of the highest win rate for its usage


| 61 | Jirachi | 5 | 0.42% | 100.00% |
??????????


| 21 | Palkia | 64 | 5.38% | 35.94% |
Palkia alternatively to Zarude had a pretty bad win rate for its usage. On paper it's an amazing breaker, but clearly it didn't perform long term and might be worse than people thought initially just because of the meta suffocating it.

And that's it, was really fun getting to see all the stats over time and seeing how things shaped out. Not a ton of movement at the top of the usage but watching games with more fun picks that put in work was always cool. As always thoughts about these stats are always fun to hear from everyone, and with the ongoing discussions above which I've gave my thoughts on these are a nice topic to also talk about.

 

[shadowpea]

| 88 | Rotom-Frost | 1 | 0.08% | 0.00% |

explain

 

[Rarycaris]

Is there any difference between Zarude and Zarude-Dada, or the Dada form just the preferred cosmetic?

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

Is there any difference between Zarude and Zarude-Dada, or the Dada form just the preferred cosmetic?

seems to be a cosmetic forme only (source)

 

[Staxi]

Ubers Ladder Tour Cycle 1 Qualifiers

#1: fardin (1818 ELO, 87.6% GXE)
#2: samqian (1813 ELO, 85.3% GXE)
#3: indercover (1807 ELO, 86.3% GXE)
#4: lunala (1807 ELO, 83.7% GXE)
#5: ayoukoo (1806 ELO, 89.0% GXE)
#6: fogbound lake (1799 ELO, 90.0% GXE)
#7: blimax (1782 ELO, 91.4% GXE)
#8: rng loser (1762 ELO, 85.2% GXE)​

Notable teams:

- This sticky webs team built by manaphy and used by many ULT players, is one of the most efficient teams on the ladder, enabling quick games and having great matchups against almost everything. Most people sleep on sash calyrex allowing it to farm easy wins during your low ladd ascent.
(click for import - by Manaphy)

- Another sticky webs team that was used by quite a few people, it is a bit different than Manaphy's team but just as much good! Landorus-I is an underestimated Pokémon in Ubers but with the help of sticky webs it becomes a dangerous threat with its powerful STAB earth power and rock slide preventing defog users such as Yveltal or Ho-Oh to remove the sticky web.
(click for import - by Lunala)

- This stall team built by Fardin has been used since the beginning of cycle 1. Before ULT cycle 1, stall teams were nowhere to be seen and as far as I know it has been rarely used during last seasonal, maybe this playstyle will have more usages for cycle 2, ULT playoffs or Ubers Premier League!
(click for import - by Fardin)

Cycle 1 trends:

- Due to the abundance of sticky webs teams on the ladder since the start of Ubers Ladder Tour, unsurprisingly ditto became more popular. It also helps alot against stall teams in the long term and is almost never a deadweight in other matchups.

- With the increase in popularity of stall teams, tyranitar usages skyrocketed and people realized that yveltal wasn't the only viable calyrex-shadow switch-in. It is also a great SR setter, enabling NDM to run a defensive Dragon Dance / Swords Dance set instead of the common SpD SR setter. It learns rock blast so you can prevent froslass from setting-up 2 spikes or shuckle from setting-up both sticky webs and SR if you are lucky enough.

 

[FearNeverDies]

I think pretty much all of us dont care about who is suspect first as long as both are suspect. But if we want to suspect something atm i would say Zacian pretty much deserve it more than Calyrex Shadow.. Why? welll with UPL and UTL if Zacian leaves the tier, it would be pretty much the same in my opinion but helthy with less opresion of Zacian, as babiri berry sets in HO are really anoying and really abuses from DM being the only thing capable of check and kill Zacian. Otherwise if we wait until this two tours end Calyrex Shadow would be an obvious suspect, if she leaves the tier would change entirily as stuff like Mewtwo, Lunala and any other set up sweeper like Zekrom and Groudon would be better and more threatining once they dont have to worry about a Scarfer with 150 base speed lol. But being optimistic eventually both of these Uber would be out of tier as both are a painfull to deal in teambuilding and game. Zacian just partners to well with other physical atackers like Groudon or Zerkrom as none of these guys care about Tang or DM. Meanwhile Calyrex S is just have one decent switch call it porygon 2 who really hates trick more than yveltal does not mention both of this hard loses against SubSeed unless you are taunt Yveltal.

But the last word is on the council so just Ban Zacian and make Ubers Great Again

 

[JT Yao]

Ubers Ladder Tour Cycle 1 Qualifiers

#1: fardin (1818 ELO, 87.6% GXE)
#2: samqian (1813 ELO, 85.3% GXE)
#3: indercover (1807 ELO, 86.3% GXE)
#4: lunala (1807 ELO, 83.7% GXE)
#5: ayoukoo (1806 ELO, 89.0% GXE)
#6: fogbound lake (1799 ELO, 90.0% GXE)
#7: blimax (1782 ELO, 91.4% GXE)
#8: rng loser (1762 ELO, 85.2% GXE)​

Notable teams:

- This sticky webs team built by manaphy and used by many ULT players, is one of the most efficient teams on the ladder, enabling quick games and having great matchups against almost everything. Most people sleep on sash calyrex allowing it to farm easy wins during your low ladd ascent.
(click for import - by Manaphy)

- Another sticky webs team that was used by quite a few people, it is a bit different than Manaphy's team but just as much good! Landorus-I is an underestimated Pokémon in Ubers but with the help of sticky webs it becomes a dangerous threat with its powerful STAB earth power and rock slide preventing defog users such as Yveltal or Ho-Oh to remove the sticky web.
(click for import - by Lunala)

- This stall team built by Fardin has been used since the beginning of cycle 1. Before ULT cycle 1, stall teams were nowhere to be seen and as far as I know it has been rarely used during last seasonal, maybe this playstyle will have more usages for cycle 2, ULT playoffs or Ubers Premier League!
(click for import - by Fardin)

Cycle 1 trends:

- Due to the abundance of sticky webs teams on the ladder since the start of Ubers Ladder Tour, unsurprisingly ditto became more popular. It also helps alot against stall teams in the long term and is almost never a deadweight in other matchups.

- With the increase in popularity of stall teams, tyranitar usages skyrocketed and people realized that yveltal wasn't the only viable calyrex-shadow switch-in. It is also a great SR setter, enabling NDM to run a defensive Dragon Dance / Swords Dance set instead of the common SpD SR setter. It learns rock blast so you can prevent froslass from setting-up 2 spikes or shuckle from setting-up both sticky webs and SR if you are lucky enough.

These are really great Staxi! Were there any notable teams or trends used in Cycle 2?

 

[Garrett]

The thread's been a little too quiet since ULT, so let's overview some new discoveries for the SS Ubers part of UPL:

1.)

Eternatus @ Power Herb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe (it's so new and an optimized spread is surely on the horizon)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Meteor Beam
- Cosmic Power
- Recover

I invented Substitute + Meteor Beam Eternatus months ago. I paired it with Zarude + Gastrodon for an absurd amount of Kyoge insurance. It turns out I was completely blind to something so much better, so much so that it's contributed to my losses in both Week 2 and 3 of UPL! This Marshadow/Kyogre check now lingers as a potential win-con at any point in the game. You can status it, you can Leech Seed it, and you can even setup alongside it, yet it's still capable of putting it serious work or outright beating many of its checks.

The short answer of why it works: many SS balance games end up in late-game stally wars involving one Yveltal + Eternatus + NDM core trying to overpower the other. As a result of being slightly more weak to Ogre, this Eternatus tech bypasses such a war completely.

2.)

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: [redacted]
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block / Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Surf / Origin Pulse
- Rest / Thunder Wave

Choice-locked Kyogre has seen less of the spotlight recently, in favor of defensive options that offer better long-term insurance versus Zygarde and Groudon. One UPL game even featured the tech of Origin Pulse over Surf which OHKOs at a +6 crit against max HP opposing defensive Kyogre, which +6 crit Surf cannot reliably do.

3.)
(Mimic Shedinja is broken btw)





These are mons with high[er] marks on the viability rankings with little to no usage for how they are ranked currently.

 

[XCellisceXCellence]

Votes is over but for posterity I'll post RE: Zacian-Hero:

Voting No Ban on this one. Three questions I have for pro-ban people:
1.) What is unusable because of Zacian-H being objectively unfair by Ubers standards?
2.) How does Zacian-H compromise Ubers standards in a way that should make #888 the first total usage ban from all competitive tiers(sans AG)?
3.) What will Ubers standards be if the tier is to be different from competitive, usage based tiers, and banned from Ubers(not usage based) for reasons used for banning things from OU and below?

As far as ZH itself goes: These four posts sum up my thoughts. This wasn't from the ZH vote debate but there's a good quote that's a succinct guide post for Ubers to pull from it, that summarizes my thoughts on Ubers competitiveness(and Zacian's):

" if there are multiple, viable, and reliable options to take on a mon it's perfectly fine in the tier"

The ZH vote debate seems like a debate over what Ubers should be after ORAS(when AG was created for Mega Rayquaza). This is a post that showcased a good division system for tiers, that system being Usage based: not broken, competitive, Ubers: broken, competitive, and AG: broken, uncompetitive.

ZH fits squarely in Ubers by that definition of competitiveness and in that system of tier divisions: it is broken for OU, and competitive with other brokens, in the tier where broken things can be used competitively. It's got varied, viable, reliable counter-play defensively and offensively for the three sets: Band, SD(Babiri/LO/HDB), Scarf(IDK if this is that common, but it's out there). Like Specs/Scarf Kyogre since DPP, ExtremeSpeed Arceus since BW, then Xerneas since XY(to name a few), it demands respect from other brokens, and like the others, it might be a sign of how teams have to change to deal with new elements in the current iteration of the game(as they've done with the introduction of HDB(Gen 8), Z Moves(Gen 7) , Fairies/Megas*(Gen 6), Choice Specs/Scarf in particular(Gen 4), and more than 5 actual Ubers (Gen 3).

I'm part of an older generation, so maybe this is a generational difference between myself and others advocating for a total Zacian ban. Others have shared my thoughts more eloquently, so I'll share theirs(5th paragraph). I'll add to that I understand the need for guardrails to keep this a competitive and enjoyable game of calculated risk, and have observed that Gen 8 Ubers as it stands allows for a lot of viable creativity(rosters, strategies, win-conditions) in a tier that has tried to strike a balance between competitiveness and creativity. With that out of the way, I don't see how banning this doesn't lead to a tier that becomes OU, and from there, a tier that doesn't have a clear purpose separate from AG or OU. Yes, things can change, but it's worth asking if there's a point where the changes defeat the purpose of the thing in the first place. Ubers has been the place where everyone(in some forme) can come to the stadium, but everyone won't be guaranteed to be competitive at the stadium. ZH banned means it's the first potential team member(888) to get totally banned from all competitive tiers(IDK if AG technically counts), and it's still not clear if it objectively deserves that (dis)honor.

Between building my own teams and using others during this suspect test, I noticed what I had to respect- Zacian, Choice Scarf/Specs Kyogre, Calyrex-S, offensive Eternatus, Xerneas, Yveltal, RP Groudon(etc)- and noticed that all they constituted were benchmarks- things that must be accounted for if a team is to be competitive. The things I'd like to play around with (Rayquaza/Outrage in general, Ghost spam, Psychic Terrain and/or Trick Room Abuse) are possible, just tricky, or less reliable in Gen 8 Ubers because of the things added in Gen 8(and disappeared from Gen 8, like Primal Groudon). I'd like to use them more (and better minds for building will figure out how to use the things I mentioned better than I can), but my preferences aren't objective. It's important to make a difference between something giving an unfair advantage to whoever doesn't use it, and a benchmark that places viability limits on strategies or sets from past iterations of the game, or makes bringing things to the current iteration of the game inadvisable/ineffective. If this ban is about people's preferences, fine. If this is about what is objectively (un)competitive, then it's less clear- it's not clear that Zacian-H pushes the limits of competitiveness beyond a standard that lets Ubers be distinct from other tiers. That's why I don't think Zacian-H should get banned. Be safe y'all.

 

[MMII]

I really dislike the attempts to compare Ubers to OU. Have you seen OU? They have fucking 40 Pokemon on their banlist right now. The entire banlist across generations for Ubers is 3. So many things would have to happen before Ubers even gets close to resembling OU. "I don't see how banning this doesn't lead to a tier that becomes OU" is a ridiculous boogieman of an argument that only serves as false premise to disqualify Ubers from OU tournaments and/or to tell people that what they want for their fangame is somehow wrong.

I have no issue with encouraging people to think more critically about what they want from Ubers. A lot of your post and the posts you quoted raise interesting questions in that regard. This argument in particular, however, is dishonest and I would prefer if we kept discussion centered on Ubers alone.

 

[XCellisceXCellence]

I really dislike the attempts to compare Ubers to OU. Have you seen OU? They have fucking 40 Pokemon on their banlist right now. The entire banlist across generations for Ubers is 3. So many things would have to happen before Ubers even gets close to resembling OU. "I don't see how banning this doesn't lead to a tier that becomes OU" is a ridiculous boogieman of an argument that only serves as false premise to disqualify Ubers from OU tournaments and/or to tell people that what they want for their fangame is somehow wrong.

I have no issue with encouraging people to think more critically about what they want from Ubers. A lot of your post and the posts you quoted raise interesting questions in that regard. This argument in particular, however, is dishonest and I would prefer if we kept discussion centered on Ubers alone.

Hi! I am concerned about implied dishonesty, a desire to conjure a boogeyman(a Grimmsnarl or some such I guess), and whether or not I made myself entirely clear. I'll happily amend part of my original statment: that a transformation of Ubers into a mirror of OU would be inevitable with this ban-I don't know that.

Just as I made my post, I in fact read what you wrote here, that Ubers is what people want it to be with each generation of players, and that it doesn't need an ontological definition,which I principally agree with and respect. I forgot to add to my original post that this statement was also one I agree with in principle, even if the practice for uncompetitiveness isn't always clear-as was the case for this suspect test vote.

This statement of mine about Ubers vs OU is in reference to what Minority wrote and that you replied to, and to the Ubers definition that's been on the site(a forme of every # is usuable). With the most recent ban, that definition isn't applicable anynore,and is inconsistent with a ban on every forme of a potential team member.

Many of the reasons people gave for this ban resemble reasons used for banning things from OU to Ubers. The use of those reasons with the premise of Ubers I'd heard of suggests an end state where what people choose based on those reasons would ultimately, maybe slowly, get to something resembling OU. It's a different generation of players, and now a different rule consistent with a different definition, that people have the right to make. I also saw that the definition of the Ubers tier has been changed on Smogon, and the definition has changed in a way that's principally consistent with the new ban. The practical end state with these definitions is the question.

Of concern was for the practical necessity and appropriateness of this ban, and where what people say they want from this ban would practically lead in comparison to what they say they principally want. The new definition seems more consistent with new aims that reflect what a different generation of players has chosen by right. Guess we'll see where it goes. Cheers y'all!

 

[Denial]

Since Hrishioo7 brought it up recently in his post here, i might as well come in and advocate for Weavile. I've been testing it for the past few weeks or so, and while it did work, i found it decently hard to use, since Zacian can easily punish it and bring momentum on the opponent side. With the recent Zacian ban, im pretty confident the meta is gonna shift in its favour.


Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Beat Up

This is the set i've been testing so far. I don't think you need Jolly, outspeeding Adamant Marshadow is the only relevant thing i can possibly think of, but you're probably better searching for another Marshadow check instead. Talking about Marshadow checks, Aromatherapy Xerneas is a beatiful partner for Weavile, since it can absorb and heal off statuses (for anyone wondering why this would matter, Beat Up only works with Pokèmon that are currently healthy, so if a Pokèmon is statused it wont work). Beat Up is extremely nice, most Ubers mon already start with huge stats, so when you pair Weavile with the kind of Necrozma-Dawn-Wings, Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Groudon ecc., the BP gets insanely high. This is just extra tho honestly, Knock Off itself is already annoying and most Knock absorbers (Eternatus and Xerneas) are super annoyed by the Ice STAB. Ice Shard is also really nice to deal with possible Dragon Dance Zygarde, Rock Polish Groudon, or any sweeper really. As i already mentioned tho, it's been pretty hard to use, since the Stealth Rocks weakness and the awful bulk make it pretty hard to work with, but U-turners like Yveltal and Landorus-Therian are also great partners for it.

Overall, pretty excited for this Zacian-less meta, have been hitting the lab a lot and i came up with a lot of ideas that i would never be able to pull off without Zacian hard punishing me. Hopefully i get to show some of those in UPL. Thanks for reading.

 

[Fusion Flare]

Alright, postin time. Been a lot of things that happened since the Zacian-H ban a week ago, so let's go over what's been happening as of late!

THE EFFECTS OF ZACIAN-H's BAN - WHO BENEFITS? WHO BACKFIRES? FIND OUT NOW

WINNERS OF ZACIAN-H's BAN


Slower Wallbreakers
Because of Zacian's elite speed tier, most wallbreakers found themselves hard pressed to compete. Now that it's banned however, things are taking a different turn now. Landorus-I was already seeing a large amount of usage due to its ease of breaking teams with its Sheer Force boosted attacks, but with dusk mane's physdef sets being largely unfavorable over the specially defensive variants to check geoxern, the other three pokemon on this list that it could previously fend off are now out for blood. Rayquaza's CB set is easily one of the most powerful wallbreakers with its ridiculous stab combo and priority on top, i even laddered with it using a neat team.

Don't think I need to explain much about Zekrom and Calyrex-Ice, since the former is an absolutely monstrous sweeper that can mix and match its last move now that it doesn't need to run psuedo-ground immune moves to keep Dusk Mane from irritating it with Earthquake, and the latter is literally only switched into safely by bulky Kyogre and Shedinja, so Glacial Lance has a tendency to go uncontested now that Dusk Mane is not nearly as resilient.


Bulky Offense Cores
With the banning of a Pokemon that completely curbstomped the traditional YEN core if they didn't pack a regener, bulky offense cores consisting the traditional YEN core (yveltal-etern-NDM) gets to loosen up a bit from their traditional variants. Rather than a generally underwhelming physically defensive set, Necrozma-DM's options for better sets increase! Dragon Dance and Specially Defensive come to mind, since the formercan potentially boost past the speed control meant to keep it in check, while the latter keeps the pace of the game with speed control Thunder Wave, giving it the ability to support wallbreakers, and both stunt Xerneas relatively well. Yveltal no longer has to play mindgames with Calyrex-Shadow + Zacian cores, and losing one less resist to its powerful Knock Off is always a blessing. Eternatus...didn't really care about this change, because cmon its Eternatus LOL , its ALWAYS been good. But hey, it's always nice to lose a mon that busts past you.
LOSERS OF ZACIAN-H's BAN


Regenerators (not ho-oh lol)
Unfortunately, Zacian-H's ban was a huge bow to the regenerator pokemon, whose primary niche was being some of the only pokemon that could adequately stomach Zacian's blows. But now that it's gone, most of them have retreated to their original place in the metagame being nichemons. However, not all is lost. The necessity to lure Zacian-H's checks with pokemon such as Overheat Groudon and Draco Meteor Zekrom are more than likely to drop in usage because they no longer have such a ridiculously powerful wallbreaker that they're opening up, and as such they can still retain their viability. Although it's not what I would call a Quagsire situation, they've definetly seen better days.


This Tier Ain't Big Enough for Two Fairies
Wow, Xerneas generally disliked it when Zacian-C was banned because it lost a pokemon that could bust up Dusk Mane and forced it to run Physically Defensive sets which were much more vulnerable to getting muscled through by Xerneas? Gee, I wonder what would happen if we removed the main pokemon that Dusk Mane commonly ran Physically Defensive sets for in the first place, thus drivig it to use specially defensive sets, which clown Xerneas a lot harder. Wouldn't that be something, eh?

THIS ONE SIMPLE TRICK OWNS THE STEEL TYPES FOR YOUR GEOXERN- READ MORE

the zoner

Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Magnet Rise
- Thunder

SpDef Dusk Manes and Ferrothorns having your Geomancy Xerneas in a bind? need a quick and easy way to bypass them but those stupid SmogonUberElitists wont let you use Gothitelle, CEO of fun and 'just predict it'? No problemo! Just use the zoner! With Ballon + Magnet Rise, you are guaranteed to shut down those pesky steelers, even if they have a ground move to smash your head in, and in return, you bust em up with Iron Defense boosted Body Presses so your pokemon can go crazy. But, that's not all it does! It also happens to fill a defensive niche utilizing its typing and high defense, letting it fend off Zekrom with the IronPress set. Overall, give it a try, it's real cool.

UBERS HATES HIM! THE META DEFINING TECHNIQUES THAT SMOGON DOESNT WANT YOU TO KNOW

Well, well, well, I guess friendship really is magic after all.

Calyrex-Shadow has been the dynamic duo to dominate ever since the dreaded Dynamax-laiden desert of SS Ubers brought out the Crown Tundra. Ever since, it's became instantly the single best pokemon. The only time where it wasn't at a state of absolute dominance was purely because of arguments that The Crowned Demon (zac-c) was the #1 of the tier, and one of the arguments of Calyrex-S being #1 was its higher speed. Anyway, you people already know the basics of Calyrex-S and why its so good, brutal special attack, inane speed tier , busted special moxie ability that also denies resist berries. And who can forget the devastating signature move of wallbreaking mercilessness, Astral Barrage? Since day one it was revered and detested, with many a player calling for its ban.
Time passed, and changes came and went. Zacian-C was banned, and Shadow Tag followed not long after. And now that Zacian-H has been banned, it seemed the suspect was near-inevitable. So, it is finally time to address the mon, the myth, the legendary High King in the flesh....or fleshes i guess. Does it deserve it's very own throne at the tippity top of the tiering rung, where Lord Mega Ray resided, AG? Is it simply too good for Ubers?


So, I elected to ask the Ubers Discord on what they thought of Calyrex-Shadow.

welp, i tried all i could.

But now, it's time for my personal thoughts. Although I'm no good with words regarding it, i think it should be banned. It seems like too much of a stranglehold on the metagame, since it can run a wide variety of sets to bypass every last one of its countermeasures. Nasty Plot sets happen to be the most infuriating IMO , since Yveltal that aren't faster/ have priority are genuinely going to lose the game on the spot when webs are up, because Focus Sash kinda just cockblocks any attempt to reliably beat such an absurd mon. And SubSeed infuriates usual defensive counterplay bar Zarude, and Choice sets aren't far behind in terms of threat level, with Specs being able to put teams on the backfoot because of its ridiculous power even on resists, and Scarf steamrolls offense even with +1 sweepers. The fact that the most reliable counterplay is a specially defensie Yveltal with Snarl/Sucker Punch @ Heavy Duty Boots is fucking absurd. Even fucking Snarl can miss for some reason. All in all, this thing just fucks up the metagame to an unhealthy degree, and I personally think it should get fucking yeeted out of the tier so it can go commit to it's full-time job of ruling AG.

 

[Blimax]

Tier and Ladder is so boring RN , can't even do SS Uber lives in YT.
All used is Toxic Eternatus, Toxic Yveltal, Twave TTar, Twave Dusk Mane.
Accompanied by 200+ Turns game.
Damn SM was so freaking fun.

P.S: Moderators can delete my post if inappropriate.

 

[MMII]

are we watching the same upl?

 

[Fc]

Tier and Ladder is so boring RN , can't even do SS Uber lives in YT.
All used is Toxic Eternatus, Toxic Yveltal, Twave TTar, Twave Dusk Mane.

Maybe use different mons then if you don't want to use status spam with walls :/

I'll list some examples of new things that got better or worse with the Zacian ban here to help with creativity, just to give my thoughts on some things and how it might play out in the future. Figured now is a good time to give my initial take on the post ban meta, it's only been 1 week after UPL so there isn't a ton to go off yet, but I think things are looking a bit more open overall with the meta. Looking at the usage stats for week 5 of UPL, there was a record low number of Necrozma-DM usage, with it 2 weeks prior being used on literally every team. 70+% is still high but that's getting closer to what it sees in USM on average, so I think that's a positive thing creativity wise. The sets are also different, with people running sp.def, phys.def, dd, sd, a lot more twave, etc. It has more options as a mon itself and also for viable replacements, so I think for being creative that's positive.

New Steel-types showed up also, with even previously extremely fringe / borderline unviable mons seeing usage such as Solgaleo and Zamazenta-C, as well as Skarmory and Choice Specs Dialga being used. Like MMII said, at least this past week in UPL I feel like there was a lot more creativity. Hydreigon webs, Mewtwo HO, Weavile balance, Solgaleo Future Sight bulky offense, an insane rise in support Clefable, etc. These niche mons will probably be used here and there a bit more which I don't think previously was even possible and now it's far from suboptimal, so in terms of creativity I think we're moving in the right direction. I still stand by a no ban vote on Zacian, but it hasn't had a negative impact on the meta imo so things can maybe turn out better than before given just a bit of time, with people already figuring a lot of new stuff out.

I'll try and run through these fairly quickly, grouping some together since they got better for similar reasons

Winners of the Zacian Ban (A lot):



5 Dark-types and they all got better in different amounts, but mostly just because Zacian can't pressure them. Yveltal as the best mon in the tier is still getting better, losing one of its biggest threats. Offensive and defensive sets are harder to naturally wall, making it just better. Ttar similarly lost one of the best mons to pressure it, making it wall the things it wants to easier. Urshifu is a strong breaker that lost both competition and a prime revenge killer, so it gained viability. Zarude can just do its job better compressing an insane amount of roles without fearing one of the best breakers abusing it. Finally, Weavile has risen a bit as a potential viable candidate, with CB sets having great offensive coverage and a good speed tier that doesn't have to worry about Zacian revenge killing it.


Offensive mons, mostly just got better because they lost a prime revenge killer for them. Marshadow in particular improves because the other primary revenge killer, Calyrex-S, loses to it. Rayquaza and Zekrom appreciate Necrozma-DM not being phys.def nearly as often, and Lando just likes having less faster mons.


Defensive checks to things like Groudon, both getting better due to the strongest offensive Fairy-type being gone. Tangrowth losing a lot of viability also gives them more of a chance as walls since Tangrowth essentially just outclassed Buzzwole before, and Giratina-o in particular probably gets a lot better just by being a super strong mon currently with 1 less exploitable weakness and strong utility / coverage.


With Dusk Mane being less 100% required for teams, 2 other lesser viability Steel-types rise. Solgaleo has the same typing but has Future Sight and Teleport which sets it apart, giving Dusk Mane a good bit of competition as a Psychic and Steel-type. I'm actually sold on Zamazenta-C being viable now, with it being fairly helpful in the UPL game I brought it in. It's the best Knock absorber and Yveltal counter pretty much, being unbothered by everything that isn't Heat Wave which has near 0 usage. It soft checks Xerneas, Eternatus, scarf Calyrex-S, and can beat most passive mons in a 1v1 because it just doesn't die, notably being a Steel-type that pressures Ferrothorn which can be huge. I think it has genuine potential and would like to see it a bit more, it's still kinda mid at best but it has a place now.

Losers of the Zacian Ban:



Calyrex-S loses out with Yveltal getting better since Zacian can no longer pressure it. Zacian was one of its better partners for pressuring the hardest Calyrex-S wall, so it gets knocked down a bit just by that, but all the other checks to it like Zarude and especially Tyranitar got better, not to mention offensive checks like Marshadow and Urshifu. I already thought Calyrex-S was fine to manage, but no Zacian to pressure pretty much all of its checks has me convinced it's not a problem at all rn.


Xerneas doesn't have Zacian to pressure Dusk Mane and force it to run Phys.Def, meaning offensive or Sp.Def NDM being usually optimal just makes Xerneas a lot worse. Necrozma-DM doesn't get much worse imo, but now it has genuine Steel-type competition since things like Ferrothorn or Solgaleo can suffice as the only Steel-type on a team. It gets much more set variety available to it, but the competition it faces, while likely worse than it, now exists.


Regen mons, don't have Zacian to pivot into so they lose a prime reason for their viability, pretty simple mons that still keep a niche but it's just smaller now.


Niche offensive based mons, all lose out a bit from Zacian being banned. Genesect is just bad but now it lost one main reason to use it, revenge killing Zacian. Naganadel absolutely hates Sp.Def NDM existing now, given that it just barely lives 2 Fire Blasts unlike Phys.Def. It also doesn't have Zacian to break Dusk Mane anymore. Magnezone is also a new mon that's picking up in usage like Weavile, but losing Zacian means it doesn't have a main teammate around. It can still assist Xerneas, Galarian Darmanitan, Calyrex-I, etc. so not all is lost though.

There's probably quite a few things I missed since I just wanted to quickly talk about the main things here, but almost every mon probably had their viability impacted by the Zacian ban in one way or another. It'll be interesting to see how the metagame plays out, and I think it's actually in a super great spot rn. I've heard a ton of creative ideas from a ton of people and have worked on stuff myself like with Zamazenta-C, so I really hope it'll pan out well like I think it's going to. No complaints on my end really, fun metagame that I encourage everyone to try and get creative with.

 

[Garrett]

View attachment 351878
Tier and Ladder is so boring RN , can't even do SS Uber lives in YT.
All used is Toxic Eternatus, Toxic Yveltal, Twave TTar, Twave Dusk Mane.
Accompanied by 200+ Turns game.
Damn SM was so freaking fun.

P.S: Moderators can delete my post if inappropriate.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ubers-teambuilding-workshop.3686022/
If you are looking for some heat feel free to request some here. :)

Anyways, with Zacian-H banned, there's been some great innovation in UPL Week 5's SS games. It's just the beginning. I highly recommend watching last week and this week for some ideas.

 

[Aberforth]

Been hit with a bout of insomnia so thought I'd talk about Calyrex-S here for a bit. I asked Icemaster the other day when we'd be getting the Calyrex test I thought was guaranteed (because we still cant even make analysis's on any mon that could mention it) and he told me he was going to do a survey and revisit the issue after UPL, but would be in favour of 'never' personally. It got me thinking, and I've posted before talking about how much I want it suspected, and that I wanted it suspected before Zacian, but playing in the post-Zacian meta in UPL and on the ladder, I honestly think its been kept in check by Zacian being banned a lot more than I thought it was going to be.

The added freedom and flexibility in teambuilding that Zacian leaving allowed means that it no longer forces out nearly as many staples of balance out of fear of the Zacian waiting to prey on them being weakened/killed, and it potentially gets crippled failing to kill those things (such as NDM/Eternatus/Ferrothorn) now. Scarf is undoubtedly the most effective set at the moment, being the worst nightmare of almost every HO build, while sets like Specs and Subseed are luxuries that are difficult to really afford to run without opening up holes against dangerous sweepers, to the point where I'd call them matchup fishing. Sash has its place on dedicated HO teams, but Calyrex itself really prevents those sorts of teams from being very widespread, and hoping to win a speed tie (when webs are up) is just a really uncomfortable situation to be in. Trick + Nasty Plot is a very good set that can take advantage of some teams... but its a lot harder to execute in practice and can only be done by skilled play really, and its still forced out even by Tricked Yveltal unless they're very slow.

Describing it like that, it doesnt feel like the sort of thing that should be suspected tbh. That sounds like a good pokemon, probably even a great pokemon, that requires a lot of skill to make the most out of, with good counterplay that teams can make use of, and even when it gets rolling it has issues that prevent it from steamrolling opposing teams. It feels like the offensive counterpart to Lunala, not just because of the typing, but because its a 'get out of jail free' card to use against dangerous opposing set-up sweepers that muscled through an initial check to them.

Ultimately, I recon I'd probably vote no ban is a suspect does happen on it. Amazed that my mind could change on it this quickly, but its really been struggling to have the same effect as it did when Zacian enabled it, I guess I was proven wrong.

 

[Stallion]

Been hit with a bout of insomnia so thought I'd talk about Calyrex-S here for a bit. I asked Icemaster the other day when we'd be getting the Calyrex test I thought was guaranteed (because we still cant even make analysis's on any mon that could mention it) and he told me he was going to do a survey and revisit the issue after UPL, but would be in favour of 'never' personally. It got me thinking, and I've posted before talking about how much I want it suspected, and that I wanted it suspected before Zacian, but playing in the post-Zacian meta in UPL and on the ladder, I honestly think its been kept in check by Zacian being banned a lot more than I thought it was going to be.

The added freedom and flexibility in teambuilding that Zacian leaving allowed means that it no longer forces out nearly as many staples of balance out of fear of the Zacian waiting to prey on them being weakened/killed, and it potentially gets crippled failing to kill those things (such as NDM/Eternatus/Ferrothorn) now. Scarf is undoubtedly the most effective set at the moment, being the worst nightmare of almost every HO build, while sets like Specs and Subseed are luxuries that are difficult to really afford to run without opening up holes against dangerous sweepers, to the point where I'd call them matchup fishing. Sash has its place on dedicated HO teams, but Calyrex itself really prevents those sorts of teams from being very widespread, and hoping to win a speed tie (when webs are up) is just a really uncomfortable situation to be in. Trick + Nasty Plot is a very good set that can take advantage of some teams... but its a lot harder to execute in practice and can only be done by skilled play really, and its still forced out even by Tricked Yveltal unless they're very slow.

Describing it like that, it doesnt feel like the sort of thing that should be suspected tbh. That sounds like a good pokemon, probably even a great pokemon, that requires a lot of skill to make the most out of, with good counterplay that teams can make use of, and even when it gets rolling it has issues that prevent it from steamrolling opposing teams. It feels like the offensive counterpart to Lunala, not just because of the typing, but because its a 'get out of jail free' card to use against dangerous opposing set-up sweepers that muscled through an initial check to them.

Ultimately, I recon I'd probably vote no ban is a suspect does happen on it. Amazed that my mind could change on it this quickly, but its really been struggling to have the same effect as it did when Zacian enabled it, I guess I was proven wrong.

I think Caly-S' case is helped by the fact that Yveltal is so damn good anyway, so it doesn't *feel* centralising to include it or a Tyranitar on every single team.

However, any team without Yvel is going to struggle mightily vs it. It still feels like a very centralising figure of the metagame and something that should be suspect tested at a minimum. I for one don't feel like I should be forced to use Yvel on every team to avoid being curbstomped.

 

[Aberforth]

I think Caly-S' case is helped by the fact that Yveltal is so damn good anyway, so it doesn't *feel* centralising to include it or a Tyranitar on every single team.

However, any team without Yvel is going to struggle mightily vs it. It still feels like a very centralising figure of the metagame and something that should be suspect tested at a minimum. I for one don't feel like I should be forced to use Yvel on every team to avoid being curbstomped.

I agree with most of this, the difference I’m feeling is that now Yveltals sets dont suck if there isnt a Calyrex on the other side of the field. I find it more analogous to DuskMane from USM as a result, as a defogger, knock off user, pivot and something that can stave off stuff like Groudon in a pinch ext. And like you mentioned, there is stuff like TTar and Zarude which do have their merits in the meta and do more than just check Calyrex as well.

 

[MMII]

Even with a Caly ban, you would still use yveltal on virtually every team because there is a shortage of good defog mons and yveltal is (one of) the best at it in this format. Yveltal also just does so much for a team both offensively and defensively, especially if offensive lunala/mewtwo sets make a return post-ban. You would see more offensive yveltal balances, though, which would probably be more restrictive on the builder (for balance teams) than Caly is right now.

 

[Fc]

Good Post

Great post here, I share a lot of thoughts with this and I feel like anyone should definitely give this a read.


Anyway, my own thoughts on Calyrex-S are no surprise, I think the Pokemon is not broken at all, and I would honestly prefer to not even suspect test it because I don't think it's worthy of one. Suspect tests should be reserved for things that are super overwhelming, and despite voting no ban on Zacian I think the test of one of it or caly was in order, but with Zacian now gone I see no reason to suspect Caly.

I think Calyrex-S is a healthy, good part of the metagame rn and post Zacian we have a lot of room for counterplay. In my last post, I went over a lot of things that got a ton better from the Zacian ban. Among those, there were 3 defensive answers I mentioned but more like Ho-Oh and Chansey which also got better, as well as 4 offensive answers. Those are just the ones that improved, and that's already a good variety of Pokemon. Other offensive answers like Ditto and Pheromosa still exist as always, and so do the fringe defensive threats like P2. That's a really large list, and these are just the things that can consistently check it. Calyrex-S struggles to find a surprising amount of KO's in some mu's, leaving even things like Ferrothorn and Toxapex to live hits and deal a ton with Knock Off. Calyrex-S has no shortage of answers, and I think generally a good team should easily be able to take it on.

The most threatening set immediately imo is Trick Nasty Plot, but even that has its drawbacks. If you run multiple pivots into Caly like Ho-Oh + Yveltal, it won't be sweeping. If you have speed control to revenge, it won't be sweeping and will instead get 1 kill max at a time if it gets all the plays right. That's ignoring ditto too, who would love to come in on a +3 Calyrex-S after a KO, and Scarf Yveltal who's choice locked anyway to start so caly can't click NP. Even the most threatening set has ample really good counterplay, and the other sets like Sub Seed and NP Sash aren't as prepared for but are still pretty easy to check with just a coverage option or 2 and some speed control.

If we look at the UPL usage stats, you can see that a lot of caly answers have high usage, and they also have really solid winrates. I don't think after finishing with a 72% / 50% winrate depending on forms in ssnl and having a 75% winrate in UPL you can call Zarude anything but a really strong mon, and that just shows that there are variety options available that are really good. Zarude requires more support than Yveltal to check Calyrex-S but that's fine, given that Ho-Oh has a ton of usage naturally with a good winrate. Marshadow is an offensive counterplay option with great success, Gira-o's picked up, Scarf darm as speed control to outrun caly hasn't even lost a upl game yet, etc. Even Weavile has a bit of usage but it's unfortunately cursed to never hit 3 axel's in an important game so it has never won despite winning every game on preview. People have been developing this meta and I think this is so much more than what happened throughout like the entire rest of DLC 2, since without Zacian things can be opened up.

I say Calyrex-S is a healthy part of the metagame rn because it provides us with incredible speed control that otherwise we wouldn't really have given that all the other fast mons, the Zacian forms, were banned. It represents the broken checks broken style, but the best part is that neither it nor the things it checks are too overwhelming. Something like Groudon for example has 100% given me more trouble in games and in the builder to check and I think it is definitely harder to check, and Caly can at least revenge it. It gives us options, a blanket offensive mon that with Choice Scarf won't instantly win games due to its relative lack of power but it will definitely be a great part of teams that need it. It's a great glue mon that I think holds things together, but doesn't restrict them too hard. If I have to dedicate 1 team slot to checking one of the most threatening breakers I'm fine with that, it's better than Zacian forms which needed like 2-3 and Calyrex-S has positive things it does outside of just being the button clicking breakers Zacian was.

The other complaint that's thrown around a lot is having to use Yveltal, and while above I've explained how there's enough viable counterplay options like Ho-Oh, Ttar, Zarude, combinations of them, and a ton of offensive checks like Marshadow, Ditto, Urshifu, Weavile, etc. it's no secret that Yveltal is the most used one, and that isn't something everyone likes. I'd first say experiment with other things if you're tired of Yveltal, but I actually really like Yveltal being this common and what it does for teams. Yveltal has a ton of varied sets, and it also has incredible utility. Knock Off, U-turn, Foul Play, Defog, Roost, Toxic, Taunt, etc are all great support that helps it check a lot of things, so it's just a really incredible Pokemon that helps shore up spots on teams depending on what you run on it. With how reliable it is at checking Caly I'm fine with running it, and I like the dynamic the 2 have, where 1 checks the other and both are great, but never too much.

Anyway, with that out of the way I wanna talk about

Set

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 132 SpD / 60 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Close Combat
- Howl
- Behemoth Bash

I hype this mon up a lot, and I think it's for good reason. I've brought it in 2 tour games so far, in UPL and no johns, and in both it won while putting in work and actually sweeping the end game in no johns. You can edit the spread to the one in the analysis with less speed, but just for showing its versatility I have enough speed to outrun +speed base 90's. This is I think the optimal set to run, giving it a balance of defense and offense, since without Howl it just kinda sits there. The main draw that I think Zamazenta-C has is that it's a Steel-type that threatens Ferrothorn. Obviously you won't break one with like +2 def and Body Press with Leech up and lefties on, but it does a way better job at threatening it than something like Dusk Mane does. Its other big thing is being a check to almost all defensive mons, shrugging off even Ho-Oh Sacred Fire that can't even do 40%. It's one of the best Yveltal counters, it beats defensive etern, it beats defensive Xerneas, it beats defensive NDM, Lunala, etc. It's really strong at just living hits it has no business living, not even being 2HKO'd by scarf caly with this spread, and being 4HKO'd by defensive Eternatus Flamethrower, taking even less from Mystical. It soft checks stuff like Calyrex-I and even Geoxern since Moonblast doesn't do that much at +2, only doing around 80 max. I think this mon is definitely legit now and should probably be even a bit higher on the VR, but it's at least getting recognized and hopefully used a bit more outside of my own teams which is great, more diversity that's possible in this metagame.

Calcs

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 273-322 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 108-128 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 141-166 (36.3 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Lunala Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 109-130 (28 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 64 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 100-118 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. +2 252 HP / 64 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 109-129 (28 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. +2 252 HP / 64 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 126-150 (32.4 - 38.6%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO

phys.def calcs are effectively +1 due to the bug in the calc

This post is long enough as is so I'll just keep it short, in my last post I explained how much I'm liking the meta's diversity, and that still holds up. I feel like I can build a lot of things that work out and have way more options post Zacian since that mon ended up restricting things more than I initially saw, and I strongly think nothing has to be changed about the meta rn.

 

[LBN]

Great post here too.

Frankly i agree with everything here, and i would like to continue to reiterate that Calyrex-Shadow isn't broken whatsoever, it's fine. Trick NP can definitely be stupid but really like FC said thing needs to get all the plays right with it and still won't auto win the game. I frankly say suspecting Calyrex-S goes against the whole idea of ubers trying to allow everything within reason. Calyrex provides so much for this tier and while it's good it's nowhere near broken and frankly i think groudon is better than it but i'll get to that. Don't suspect Caly-GG under any circumstance.

With that out of the way though, UPL is nearing it's final few days and the meta has developed in great ways like FC said, with so many new mons added to the VR showing their worth. Both landorus are goated, Lugia still fucking sucks (W), Zarude still showing it's a good mon with some of the best resists in the game rn (it's still not top 10 mon tony let's relax a lil) and new innovations like CB Buzzwole, Specs Zekrom as the tiers only volt switcher, Hydreigon Webs, and even more stuff like Clefable being insanely solid at its job. Ubers is genuinely a good tier rn and it doesn't need any changing as it stands. Older gens also saw some funny stuff like magmortar stall in oras and fcking won so ubers still has new tricks to show.

Tier has sauce rn and it's genuinely been fun to play, and it has the ability to be one of the more fun tiers this gen at this rate. Obviously it's not as creative as 7 is thanks to no megas and arceus rn but it's hella creative in it's ability to grab down from the lower tiers for mons with niches. Previously mentioned Hydreigon, Clefable, Buzzwole along with other things like Suicune, Heatran, Lando-t, and good old Ferrothorn and Excadrill. Tiers fun even with cheating ass Kyogre and Groudon being their usual annoying selves, everytime kyogre clicks twave i lose about 5 months off my lifespan.

I'm done typin for now since i need to write up other stuff for now so this'll just be Ubers good talk but regardless i dont got much to say rn besides dont ban caly and tier is gas rn so imma leave it at that for once

 

[Icemaster]

Gonna share some thoughts on Calyrex Shadow since there is some pro-ban sentiment - these are my personal thoughts so they don't reflect what might happen tiering wise. I don't think Calyrex Shadow is banworthy. Compared to the banned Zacian formes, Calyrex-Shadow manages to break its counters far less often, enabling teams to run one counter and usually be well off. Stacking two Calyrex switchins (A dark type + another/blissey/ho-oh) leaves you extremely well off vs Calyrex especially as Trick will only cripple one switchin. Such builds are usually used because they're good in general rather than Calyrex forcing them, unlike Zacian-Hero which forced multiple checks. Coupled with the fact that there are numerous good Calyrex counters preparing for it doesn't feel overwhelming in the builder. Running the most threatening sets which can beat Yveltal (Subseed/Trick NP/sash NP) have big drawbacks - subseed won't harm Zarude or Blissey teams (or Snarl Yveltal but that's rare), while Trick NP is difficult to pull off due to how difficult it is to bring Calyrex in multiple times. On both sets, the loss of aromatherapy is extremely noticeable, while Sash NP needs a lot of support (only really fits on HO which is declining in usage). All of this makes me think that Calyrex is a great but not banworthy mon.

So that this post has a bit more substance here are some teams I've found fun

Teams

Mew Balance
Sand
Band Ho-Oh Sun Fat Balance
Spike Stacking Stall
The Palkia

 

[Carl Murray]

I personally believe that Calyrex is at least suspect worthy.

I agree that Yveltal will still be common if Caly is gone but would it always rely on running spe def and fear to be tricked? I also don’t agree with the statement that all Zacian forms are just better, simply because of the variations you can have with Calyrex. During upl some people lost to sub seed because the standard is now Choice trick.

Why I believe it’s suspect worthy is because the snowball effect can be devastating and because you simply can’t build a team to play around it if you don’t have a Dark type.

Also if Zarude becomes popular I can see Caly running Pollen Puff just to beat it.

Just my POV