Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - Crown Tundra [Zacian-Hero Banned]

Question: Going by Ubers usage stats (1760), Dracovish has a very high usage rate in the high ladder (ranked 12), however Dracovish viability ranking is only B. Is Dracovish being overused by high ladder players? If so, how and why? I know viability != usage but still wondering if Vish has found some new niche outside rain team, webs or trick room that's working well.
 

Aberforth

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Question: Going by Ubers usage stats (1760), Dracovish has a very high usage rate in the high ladder (ranked 12), however Dracovish viability ranking is only B. Is Dracovish being overused by high ladder players? If so, how and why? I know viability != usage but still wondering if Vish has found some new niche outside rain team, webs or trick room that's working well.
Especially on the higher ladder, teams tend to be bulkier and slower, favouring reliability against a lot of 'cheesy' playstyles. This means not using teams reliant on pokemon hitting inaccurate moves like Stone Edge, because using that means losing 20% of 'won' games. Looking at some replays from the high ladder, this sort of a team is fairly common.

Common 6.PNG


Dracovish's niche is that it punishes these sorts of teams like nothing else in the tier. If Dracovish is in on this team with rain up against any of Ho-oh, Necrozma-DM, Kyogre or Zygarde, something is dying, and that will often lead to big holes for the rest of the team to exploit as well. You can exchange any of those 4 for slow Yveltal, Blissey, and any paralysed pokemon as well. As a result, a fairly common ladder duo is Twave Kyogre + Dracovish + 4 others that match up decently well vs the offensive teams that Dracovish flops against.

This sort of structure has fairly significant issues that mean it isnt seen as often in Tournament play, because it runs the risk of running into Groudon/Zekrom in particular, who look at a team of Dracovish, Kyogre, Eternatus, Yveltal, NDM + Filler and smile at how easily it is to break past them, and anything in that filler slot that actually deals with those two will make the team fall apart against well played Calyrex-S very easily. However, against the fatter styles preferred on the higher parts of the ladder, Dracovish doesnt often have a bad matchup, so its a decent overall pick.
 
This sort of structure has fairly significant issues that mean it isnt seen as often in Tournament play, because it runs the risk of running into Groudon/Zekrom in particular, who look at a team of Dracovish, Kyogre, Eternatus, Yveltal, NDM + Filler and smile at how easily it is to break past them, and anything in that filler slot that actually deals with those two will make the team fall apart against well played Calyrex-S very easily.


As for the metagame, I agree with the sentiments brought forth by Aberforth, Icemaster and Fc in their posts. Following the Zacian-H ban, the tier has just been in a very good and playable spot. All kinds of different playstyles and team structures are proving to be effective without the stranglehold Zacian-H had on the team builder and especially on actually playing. We're even seeing offensive Yveltal sets being used very effectively on balance teams, knowing Calyrex-S can be kept in check otherwise. The metagame has adapted very well and I've really enjoyed making teams and playing games post Zacian-H.

The Ubers council is planning on releasing another survey next week, which gives us all an opportunity to see where we stand as a community. From speaking to the council, though, there is a strong - if not unanimous - mindset of being extremely satisfied with the metagame as it is, so I'm curious to see how the larger playerbase thinks as well. Assuming it won't be rescheduled, there's also going to be a Smogcast about SS Ubers tonight (Sunday) at 7 PM GMT -4, for those of you interested in hearing a bit more about how some of the top players feel about the tier right now.
 

Minority

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Posting on the state of the current metagame as a member of the Ubers Council.

With the likes of Dynamax, Baton Pass, and Zacian banned, it seems the main thing still on players' radars is Calyrex Shadow Rider. The reason seems to be because Calyrex-SR is a big offense Pokemon that brings very little to the teambuilder in regards to defensive utility or role compression. This Pokemon is partially responsible for the ubiquity of Yveltal, which is largely the only good Pokemon that actually checks it well. Other Calyrex-SR defense comes from niche Ghost-type resists / immunities and / or a decentralized anti-Calyrex-SR defensive core. While I agree that Calyrex-SR functions as a lethal and at times centralizing offensive threat, there is no evidence from a teambuilding perspective (at least for now) that the Pokemon applies anywhere near enough offense pressure to mandate very specific cores / counter-play in order for teams to remain viable. It seems fairly clear that Calyrex-SR does not force any type of substantial teambuilding convergence and is therefore not an uncompetitive Pokemon. In my opinion the current metagame is ideal and no testing of Calyrex-SR is required.
 

Manaphy

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Hey guys, this post won’t be as long as my normal tiering-related posts, but I wanted to get my thoughts out now.

Also, if you haven’t already, please check out the Smogcast here where me, FC, Lunala, Tony, and Aberforth discuss the current SS meta, since we touch on a lot of the same topics.


My basic thoughts are this: Calyrex-S is extremely strong in the current meta. However, I don’t think it’s unmanageable to deal with, both in terms of play and in terms of teambuilding pressure. In my opinion, and in most of the top players opinions that I’ve asked, the meta is very fun right now and is in a good place. Therefore, I do not think a suspect test of Calyrex-S is necessary at all.


There’s a few things that separate Calyrex-S from Zacian-Hero in my thoughts here. For one, the teambuilding pressure that Zacian put on the meta was insanely hard to deal with. Basically any core that wasn’t NDM + Tangrowth or NDM + Ho-Oh lost to Zacian, and even these cores could be overcome with the right set/team support. In contrast, Calyrex-S is mostly manageable by just having a defensive Yveltal on your team. An important point to note here is that, forcing a defensive Yveltal on many teams is not the worst thing in the world. Even if Calyrex didn’t exist, Yveltal would likely be insanely useful in and of itself - it is the best user of Defog in the tier, has reliable recovery, and great utility options with Knock Off, U-Turn, Taunt, Sucker Punch, etcetera. So it’s important to note that Calyrex-S is not forcing you to use some type of shitmon. Now, it is true that you will likely want some sort of secondary check to Calyrex, just like you did with Zacian. However, in comparison, these checks are much easier to fit and tend to provide a lot of other forms of utility to your team anyway. Defensive mons such as Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Blissey, or Zarude, and revenge killers such as Marshadow, Darmanitan, or your own Scarf Calyrex-S, all of which are very good on their own, regardless of their ability to deal with Calyrex. It’s not even limited to these mons, as Calyrex-S really needs a boost to get going, meaning random things such as a healthy Groudon, Zygarde, or Zekrom can take a Astral if need be and force Calyrex out (for example, I believe a Scarf Caly does like 40-ish to bulky set-up Groudon). Even NDM of all things will be able to take an Astral now thanks to it’s Special Defense investment. Zacian’s guarenteed boost right from the start made it a lot more dangerous in this aspect, both for being able to blast through it’s regular checks with the right reads, and for plowing through everything else from the start.

Secondly, I think Calyrex-S provides some very nice things to the meta. In this aspect, Zacian felt completely degenerate to me - people claimed that we needed Zacian for it’s breaking ability, but as the meta has proved since it got banned, this has not been necessary at all. Zacian forced very specific team styles in order to deal with it, making the meta extremely matchup-dependent. People legitimately started running many Zacian-weak builds because they wanted to have some sort of creativity in their builds, even if it wasn’t optimal. Calyrex-S has proved to do no such thing - outside of forcing Yveltal on the vast majority of teams, who would likely be a great mon even without Calyrex present, the variety in the current meta is quite diverse. Calyrex in and of itself is great for it’s ability to role compress for teams. Having Aromatherapy provides massive utility for balance and bulky offense teams alike, and being able to do this while revenge killing is awesome. Calyrex also helps to keep some of the (in my opinion) degenerate HO styles at bay, which have historically been a bit of a problem for SS (I have nothing against HO and use it all the time, but it’s definitely a problem when it gets too strong - check out last year’s UPL where it was basically decided by who Screens HO’d the other, and you will understand). Trick is perhaps Calyrex’s strongest ability, being able to turn even matchups in your favor, as pretty much nothing in the tier likes being tricked a Scarf or Specs. Even this has a benefit in it’s own right, keeping some forms of stall from being too strong - and it’s not totally unmanageable either, as you are prevented from Tricking recklessly if you need your Choice Item’s speed or power to keep an enemy threat at bay. Even when you have Tricked a Yveltal, you will still need skilled play to be able to take advantage of it, keeping rocks up and predicting Roosts and Defogs right, lest you let your Calyrex get KO’d by a Yveltal predicting you to stay in on it. Meanwhile, early in DLC2, SubSeed sets were hyped up to be some meta-defining set, that was supposed to force Snarl Yveltal on every team. This has massively turned out to be overhyped - while it can be extremely threatening in the right matchup, it’s lack of revenge killing ability, Trick, and Aromatherapy support leaves it much, much more difficult to actually fit on a team. Also, more flexible options such as Taunt Yveltal, U-Turn Yveltal + a revenge killer, Blissey, or Zarude have proved to be more flexible options for keeping Subseed at bay. Nasty Plot Sash sets only work on HO and are not much of a threat otherwise. Trick + Nasty Plot sets can be very strong against fat teams, but that forces your Calyrex to be always Specs and lose Aromatherapy, both of which limit the amount of teams it can fit on comfortably.


tl;dr: Calyrex-S is definitely the strongest and most metagame-defining force out there, but it is nowhere near unmanageable in terms of play or teambuilding, and it provides a lot of good things for the tier in it’s own right with it’s revenge killing, cleric abilities, and keeping the meta from being overly dominated by extreme forms of offense or stall.
 

Staxi

Staxoat
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Posting this as a member of the Ubers Tiering Council.

I agree with what Manaphy said. Yes, Calyrex-Shadow is extremely strong but not unmanageable to deal with, there are a few counterplays such as a decently bulky dark-type (Yveltal, Zarude-DADA or Tyranitar), Shadow Sneak Marshadow, Sash Calyrex-Shadow on webs teams and a lot i'm forgetting. Yes of course you have to use one of those aforementioned or you are just getting swept but this is exactly the same case with Xerneas in ORAS or USUM, you have to use a good steel type or you just lose and we can all agree that Xerneas isn't broken in those gens, just really good at best.

Yes I know you can trick a Choice Scarf or Specs to the opposing Yveltal and it becomes harder to deal with Calyrex but it isn't an instant lose because the Calyrex player still has to win a LOT of 50/50 to actually beat Yveltal (without mentionning that you can also predict that and get another pokemon tricked and then Calyrex is just never getting past Yveltal). You might also say that SubSeed Calyrex beats Yveltal but you have to check if the Yveltal isn't running Snarl (yes I agree it's pretty uncommon atm but still) and it can still use U-Turn 1 or 2 times to break your Sub and RK you with a Marshadow or Scarf Kyogre. Also if the opposing team has a Zarude(-DADA) you are just playing a 5v6 battle because your Calyrex-S is doing almost 0 with its Astral Barrage especially if the Zarude-DADA is the SpD one.

You also need to think about the metagame if Calyrex-Shadow gets banned, i'm sure most of you don't want to have to deal with NP Mewtwo or offensive Yveltal (you are forced to also use Zarude-DADA atm if you want to go with offensive Yveltal). You would also lose a great Zekrom or Groudon revenge killer because scarf Calyrex-S is still faster than Zekrom after 2 Dragon Dance / 1 Rock Polish... Yes Calyrex-S limits the teambuilding but I think it limits it in a positive way and most of the good players i've discussed with agree on that, so if we are doing a suspect test please consider how the metagame would be without it, and I personally think it can only become worse.

tl;dr: Yes Calyrex-Shadow is very very strong but it limits the teambuilding in a positive way and isn't absolutely broken, banning it can only make the metagame worse.

Thanks for reading!
 
Calyrex-S has a couple of sets so I want to briefly go over my thoughts on the the more common ones before giving my overall thoughts on it.

The standard set for Calyrex-S on most Balance/Bulky Offense teams is Trick/Astral Barrage/Psyshock/Aromatherapy with Choice Scarf or Choice Specs, although Nasty Plot over Aroma picked up some usage later into UPL, being brought in Fc vs. Icemaster, Lunala vs Fatfighter2, and Goat Heart vs Fardin. The Nasty Plot variant adds an additional complication to the 50/50 of Calyrex-S vs Yveltal, but it still requires rocks up and generally doesn't auto-win unless it is vs a slower team with no speed control and the Yveltal gets tricked (as shown in Goat Heart vs Fardin). It also comes at either the cost of having no Cleric or forcing you to run a more passive mon such as Defensive Xern, Blissey or Clefable.

In more general terms, Choice Scarf offers amazing speed control, notably outspeeding the base 90s at +2 Speed such as Zekrom and Groudon, as well as + 2 Speed Xerneas and Zygarde. However, this does come at the cost of breaking power, as you miss out on notable potential OHKOes that the Specs set can grab, such as vs Defensive Groudon, Defensive Zygarde (before transforming), and Sp. Def Necrozma Dusk-Mane, as well as the 2HKO with barrage on Sp. Def Eternatus and the OHKO with Psyshock. On the other hand, the Specs set has more potential to break through some of its answers, breaking through fast Yveltal if it gets knocked (although it has to be careful of sucker), outdamaging Jungle Healing's recovery vs Sp. Def Zarude with Astral Barrage, and 2HKOing Defensive Ho-Oh.

Next, the standard set for Calyrex-S on HO is sash Nasty Plot, which can 2HKO fast Yveltal with +2 Draining Kiss. However, this set comes with the multiple issues. You lack initial power, so if you get hit trying to set up and can't Draining Kiss vs Yveltal back to full, you don't beat it. Also, unless you are Modest, you never 2HKO max max yveltal. Sucker Punch would also require you to win multiple 50/50s, opposing Scarf Calyrex-S would mean you have to win a speed tie, U-turn Yveltal + Marshadow would force you out, and Scarf Yveltal just 2HKOes you. These issues with the sash set aligns with the overall low usage of HO in UPL, with it only being seen in BasedWhat? vs PDT and Fogbound Lake vs Skysolo past week 5 as far as I remember.

Finally, there is the Subseed Set, which was brought in UPL in Icemaster vs TJ, where it broke past Yveltal and eventually won basically by itself. This set has the most potential upside in terms of winning on the spot, but it is also a dead slot vs Zarude and struggles if there is a Blissey or Ho Oh. It also has the downside of losing the potential utility of both Trick and Aroma.

Overall, while Calyrex-S is a strong presence in the metagame, it generally can be handled with just Yveltal and careful play, especially in a metagame without Zacian-C or Zacian to heavily punish Calyrex-S's answers. It benefits the metagame by providing crucial speed control with its Scarf set to keep problematic set up sweepers in check, as well as crucial Cleric support that is not passive.
 
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Following internal discussion and the results of the most recent Ubers community survey, the Ubers council has decided not to start a new suspect test at this time. The reason for this being that metagame enjoyment and stability numbers are as good as they've ever been, Calyrex-S' being problematic numbers are as low and divided as they've ever been and the first Smogon Champions League - featuring SS Ubers - is only a few weeks away, too. This does not mean Calyrex-S will never be looked into again, though. We'll check in with another survey following the conclusion of SCL and additional Ubers Seasonal data. On top of that we'll have the release of Shining Diamond and Brilliant Pearl in about two months, which may or may not give us Arceus (among other less impactful new options).

We're aware that not everyone will like this course of action, as many of you consider Calyrex-S to be overly restrictive in the current metagame, even after banning Zacian-H. However, we don't want to propose making serious changes to Ubers unless it's truly urgent that we step in. Shadow Tag and Zacian-H both caused metagame enjoyment to plummet and were immensely frustrating and challenging to play around. The metagame right now is the best it has been since the start of the generation and this state of stability is how we choose to head into SCL. This is the first time since we started running the surveys that "No issues need to be addressed right now" was the most popular answer and got over 50% of the votes. Our previous results for this question were 17.1%, 11.7%, 10.1% and 8.3%, to give you an idea.

Thank you all again for taking an active part in how we've gone about this. I'm very happy with where the metagame is at now and seeing such positive survey numbers for the first time makes me confident we made the right decisions along the way. We're currently working on refreshing our resources ahead of SCL and we'll of course stay in touch here as the metagame develops during the tournament.
 

ViZar

Make Them Wheels Roll
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Um here is a reason why Calyrex-Shadow should be banned . Just give it Tapu lele support and it eliminates the real issue in Calyrex-Shadow is No priority with psychic terrain there is no priority.
Ignoring Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch is for Calyrex-S, but that isn't the biggest issue of Calyrex-S. Its coverage is the problem, since it can't hurt Yveltal and adding Lele won't solve that problem. Lele itself is checked by common Pokemon like Necrozma-DM and most offensive Yveltal variants, so it doesn't tend to be a consistent Pokemon. Just slapping it on a team won't make your Calyrex-S broken.


Here's a better and more detailed explanation, why Calyrex-S is more manageable than one might think.
TonyFlygon said:
Following internal discussion and the results of the most recent Ubers community survey, the Ubers council has decided not to start a new suspect test at this time. The reason for this being that metagame enjoyment and stability numbers are as good as they've ever been, Calyrex-S' being problematic numbers are as low and divided as they've ever been and the first Smogon Champions League - featuring SS Ubers - is only a few weeks away, too. This does not mean Calyrex-S will never be looked into again, though. We'll check in with another survey following the conclusion of SCL and additional Ubers Seasonal data. On top of that we'll have the release of Shining Diamond and Brilliant Pearl in about two months, which may or may not give us Arceus (among other less impactful new options).

We're aware that not everyone will like this course of action, as many of you consider Calyrex-S to be overly restrictive in the current metagame, even after banning Zacian-H. However, we don't want to propose making serious changes to Ubers unless it's truly urgent that we step in. Shadow Tag and Zacian-H both caused metagame enjoyment to plummet and were immensely frustrating and challenging to play around. The metagame right now is the best it has been since the start of the generation and this state of stability is how we choose to head into SCL. This is the first time since we started running the surveys that "No issues need to be addressed right now" was the most popular answer and got over 50% of the votes. Our previous results for this question were 17.1%, 11.7%, 10.1% and 8.3%, to give you an idea.

Thank you all again for taking an active part in how we've gone about this. I'm very happy with where the metagame is at now and seeing such positive survey numbers for the first time makes me confident we made the right decisions along the way. We're currently working on refreshing our resources ahead of SCL and we'll of course stay in touch here as the metagame develops during the tournament.
 

Fc

Waiting for something to happen?
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:oran-berry: Berries in SS Ubers :oran-berry:

Reading this title sounds kinda lame tbh, but it's an interesting topic that I wanted to put together a little post on. Berries are seen a ton more than in SM, and compared to tiers like ORAS, ADV, and GSC, where the choices are fairly limited to Lum, petaya / liechi, and miracle berries respectively, multiple types of berries can see genuine use on teams. I just wanted to talk about the main ones and a few ideas I've put together but not entirely gone through with.

I think one of the keys to the success of berries definitely has to be Eternatus. It's sheer bulk, utility, and ability to soft check so many Pokemon while threatening with good damage makes it a prime user for accomplishing almost whatever it wants in the builder through item use.

The Main Berries:
:Sitrus-berry: Sitrus Berry - Main User: :eternatus:

This might be the most popular berry overall especially when it was first picking up, because it offers a good bit of utility for little cost and severely punishes certain teams. The main target is obviously Poltergeist Marshadow, and this set combined with things like Air Balloon Xerneas made mono Poltergeist Marsahdow fall off incredibly hard. Sitrus lets Eternatus pivot into useful hits and actually threaten because it won't only have to click recover. Helping beat Marshadow, Kyogre to an extent, and even hits that almost kill it like boosted Zygarde and Specs Kyogre hits can be healed off as it fires off attacks and threatens those Pokemon.

:haban-berry: Haban Berry - Main Users: :eternatus: :zekrom:

Zekrom is really scary for a lot of teams, and Haban Berry especially on Eternatus which resists Bolt Strike is good as a soft check. Haban Berry Zekrom is able to improof as well as set up on Eternatus in a last ditch effort situation, and with how common Eternatus is that's quite the useful trait to have. It's a solid berry that can see a lot of uses to shore up some weaknesses on teams to Zekrom and other dragons like opposing offensive Eternatus with some very good play. It's not a foolproof method but it gives a chance of a better MU.

:shuca-berry: Shuca Berry - Main User: :eternatus:

Ground types are scary, and sometimes you gotta deal with them in creative ways. Shuca Berry Eternatus is something I used in SCL, as it's a good 1 time pivot into both don and Zygarde even when boosted. I didn't have a way to take out a Zygarde boosted more than once, but if that situation came up Shuca Berry Eternatus could save a game against that. It also takes a surprisingly low amount of damage from defensive Groudon and does a lot of damage to offensive even though it takes a lot in return. Cool tech option that has quite a few solid uses on teams.

:lum-berry: Lum Berry - Main Users: :groudon: :necrozma-dusk-mane:

Broken Lunala and Zyg are ever so slightly less broken with Lum Berry on some sweepers. Lum helps Groudon ignore Zygarde's Glare, and while Lunala still pressures with Wisp since it's faster you can threaten one with Shadow Shield broken or if it was somehow para'd by something like Zygarde really hard. Dusk Mane still loses to defensive Zygarde, but it can break fast Lunala with Sunsteel if it gets a DD on the switch, as it can't be burned then, or Knock Off will just put it out of commission even if it doesn't OHKO and Dusk Mane will come out unscathed.

:custap-berry: Custap Berry - Main Users: :shuckle:

Custap Shuckle is super risky because if you don't have Mental Herb Taunt Yveltal is incredibly threatening. It still can work, though, as with smart play this can help circumvent one of Shuckle's biggest flaws, being that it only really gets 1 hazard in most mu's. Probably the least useful in this category but it has a nice upside.

The Niche Berries:
:occa-berry: Occa Berry - Main Users: :tangrowth: :buzzwole:

Occa Berry is used quite a bit less than the others, and for a good reason, but it still has good uses as a tech. Running a Tangrowth / Buzzwole with Pokemon like Kyogre that can pivot into Groudon and giving them an Occa Berry makes playing around Fire move Groudon a much easier task when it can naturally just destroy those teams with a single right prediction to free teammates up. Super fringe especailly with the power of Rocky Helmet but it's cool regardless.

:chesto-berry: Chesto Berry - Main User: :zygarde-complete:

Putting this here because I got smashed by it, but it's still niche at best because Zygarde has a billion sets to run and nothing else can really reliably run the item. Resto Chesto still exists and can work not terribly in the right mu, it's just a little tough against things like Lunala, Xerneas, etc. Having essentially a third life on Zygarde because it already gets like 2 from complete form is really good in a lot of cases, so it can work out very well. Also if you lead this and set up on Toxic Galvantula looking for that to slow you down, HO teams can be in for a rough time.

:colbur-berry: Colbur Berry - Main User: :necrozma-dusk-mane:

Colbur NDM suffers from both a lack of power and a susceptibility to still being walled by a lot of things, but its main draw is both setting up on Yveltal once and living a +1 Foul Play against Choice Scarf sets. If you're able to take down a core of Pokemon like Yveltal + Ho-Oh with Stone Edge NDM because it lives an FP due to Colbur, teammates like Calyrex-S and offensive Yveltal will have so much easier of a time breaking on HO that it might be worth to use in very rare situations.

The Super Niche and Mediocre but Funny Ones:
:salac-berry: Salac Berry - Main User: :darmanitan-galar-zen:

The funny monkey sometimes wins games, and it's because of Salac Berry. Everyone knows how this plays and most people have probably been 6-0'd by it at some point or another, it just subs, drums, and wins. Calyrex-S obviously hurts it a lot as does Shadow Sneak Marshadow and other priority since it rarely lives to keep a sub up when at 25%, but it's incredibly good at mu fishing.

:yache-berry: Yache Berry - Main User: (lol) :eternatus:

Okay I'll be honest this one kinda isn't real, but I've built with it in fear of broken Galar Darm. Eternatus is the main user again because it can hit back with Flamethrower and can afford not having the best item slot. Avoiding something like this can maybe be clutch, but again this one's just more of a fun concept than a good set. You can also pivot into specs ogre even clicking Blizzard which is funny, but again just a concept and probably not super practical.

This was just a fun small idea I had, but as I wrote it out I realized there were a lot more berries than I remembered lol. While they aren't the most popular items ever, some like Sitrus still see decent usage, so I felt like this would be a cool post on the meta working with some niche things to form stronger teams with the ability to abuse the traits of berries. It's a cool side of the metagame that is really never talked about so I just wanted to bring it up as a cool thing to point out, how berries are probably better than ever in this current meta.
 

Aberforth

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Just my opinion here, not speaking for the rest of the council.

In a response to the survey results here, I thought I'd post my opinion on the questions the survey asked, and what I'm taking away from the survey results themselves.

Firstly, how am I enjoying the meta, and its stability. Stability-wise the only standout trend the meta has seen is the rise of HO teams and Magnezone teams, Magnezone being a little bit of a matchup fish, but otherwise I would pretty much say that games are won by natural in-game decisions a lot. While HO teams can occasionally live or die by matchup, there's no Baton Pass level cheese running around, nor even minor ones like the screens teams of the end of the last UPL. I also generally just like the current meta a lot, I feel there's a fair bit of creativity possible, thanks to massive blanket checking capabilities of some of the balance tools.

Magnezone clearly did not get high enough responses to get any sort of suspect or tiering action. I'm not surprised by this, but Magnezone teams are definitely annoying to face in the builder, given how few other good Xerneas/Eternatus/Darm-G responses exist in this meta. Shed Shell is a possibility to reduce the Magnezone threat, but if you ever have to use Shed Shell to avoid automatically losing some matchups, something has likely gone wrong. It will likely be a trend that sees adaption in the form of Ho-Oh and stuff rising in usage though, so who knows how effective it will actually be.

Calyrex-S though, this is where all the discussion is likely to be after this survey response. While there is a very vocal number of people who really want Calyrex-S to be banned, I am extremely hesitant to suggest that any action should be taken on it. First and foremost, I truly do not believe it is broken. I feel like it has significant and varied counterplay, and the tools it has to bypass this counterplay are heavily skill-reliant, or difficult to execute consistently. Second, I actually like the effect I feel like it has in the meta, with Yveltals running sets that will consistently deal with it, HO having to be carefully played such that a reverse sweep is rarely on the cards, and the Trick interactions being generally interesting to me, although that is certainly subjective. If there is a single set I dislike the effect of on the meta, it is the SubSeed set, but I dont think that it is a big enough deal to warrant banning it. Thirdly, and slightly more prominant in my mind, I feel like suspecting is tandamount to banning it outright, and I dont think the support is there for that. I believe there is a certain bias in the event of a suspect, that leads people to vote Ban as a neutral option, skewing the results to be more pro-ban than the survey itself. This might be an unfair perception I have, but I'd rather we open things up to suspects where people from other metas vote with us only in the extreme cases where our community is not incredibly divided on the issue, especially given the high standards that Ubers should have to remove something from our metagame. An average response of 6.3/10 doesnt cross that threshold for me.

This would be something I'd unhappily overlook if the qualified voters were overwhelmingly in favour of tiering action, but the average response from qualified voters was .1 higher than the response about Magnezone, and was significantly lower than the desire of the unfiltered results. Of the 14 voters who put Caly-S as a 10 as most problematic, only 2 were from the qualified voter pool. On top of that, support for a suspect on the council is extremely low, with nobody on the council actually thinking Calyrex-S is broken. That's not generally the sort of support that I feel would be needed for a suspect.

As much as it might seem like a cop out, I think we should wait and see on Calyrex-S. If there is a suspect on it soon, I will be voting No Ban though.
 

Blimax

https://www.youtube.com/c/Blimaxx
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Not much, but a small thing which I wanted for say for quite some time and now looking at the Survey Results, I think its the perfect time.
"Anything which forces or pressurizes Teambuilding is unhealthy for the Meta and is generally suspected.
Currently, Calyrex Shadow is forcing every team to run bulky Yveltal and this mon is currently sitting at S rank in the VR only because of this reason. Check the Viability of Yveltal in Oras Ubers ( https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...g-thread-final-oras-update-post-1164.3535106/ ) its A rank.
Calyrex Shadow is pressurizing the SWSH Ubers meta way to much forcing a specific type of teambuilding. I believe this mon is suspect worthy."
Once again I don't have much power or authority or participation to initiate anything, this is just my thought process as I have been playing Ubers for a longer time than most, I think it was since Tony Flygon had started Ubers (yeah Tony is ancient). Hence shared my overall thought process. (Freedom of speech)
Thanks! and Stay Safe!
 
Honestly IMO Caly-S isn't even the most restricting mon in the builder. You slap on the Ygod and you're good. Banning Caly-S only really opens up one slot if that, Nec-DM will still be mandatory and Etern near-mandatory, and then you still need a Ground check, a Defogger and a Psychic switch-in (that doesn't get bodied by Lunala or Mewtwo). So Ygod and Ho-oh will probably share high usage between them long after any potential Caly-S ban.

Speaking of Eternatus... Comfortably the best mon in Ubers rn IMO. Puts huge pressure on the entire teambuilder and makes itself indispensable as a Kyogre counter, general utility mon and Poison absorber/user. PP stalls many would-be answers, checks basically anything that can't outspeed it with the right EVs and item, combines offense and defence effortlessly. Etern is the Pdon of Gen 8, in that it's not strictly mandatory, but it's so good at so many things you're doing yourself a massive disservice by not using it. It's not blatantly broken in that it usually has to bend backwards a bit to get round its answers, but it's certainly a mon that has had a surprisingly low amount of discussion on it given how much influence it has on every battle and how much it even ends up switching into/limiting itself. Everyone just seems to accept as a fact of life in Gen 8: "yep Etern good" and move on. I'd like to hear what more regular Ubers players think about Etern and how they approach dealing with it. (To be clear, I am not advocating for an Etern ban, I think it is balanced, I'd just like to see more discussion on it because Caly-S seems to dominate discussion somewhat and really all the points regarding what it does/doesn't do have been rehashed to death.)
 

Fc

Waiting for something to happen?
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
With the results of the survey up the council didn't want to leave everyone in the dark, so I just wanna address some things as is. With the release of the Legends of Arceus game coming decently soon this year, we don't want to take any tiering action at the very least until those games come out and more information on the home compatibility is revealed. If more ways of dealing with Calyrex-S are going to be present fairly soon with the release of the game there's almost no time to even complete a suspect test, let alone for it to do anything but collide with the current team tournament coming up. Also, the survey didn't point to any exceptionally high responses on Calyrex-S, with the general tournament / high ladder consensus having it around Magnezone, a Pokemon that's close to a non-issue tiering wise. So for now nothing will be acted upon, but more surveys will be coming especially after this tour / winter seasonal and with the release of the new games and home information surrounding it.



That aside, I've talked at length on how I fully believe Calyrex-S being suspected and banned is a bad thing for the tier, how it's not broken and improves the ability to use other Pokemon due to its role compression and the ability of Yveltal to be so versatile, but for now I'll leave those arguments out of this post and just bring up that my own thoughts have stayed the same given that it's being talked about, my longer thoughts are scattered through this thread in a lot of my posts, but I wanted to just give an update on what the tiering council is thinking at the current time with regards to everything.
 

BasedWhat?

Party rockers
Alive thread. Some fun ideas that I have to maintain creative juices, competitive values not very likely.

:bw/zekrom:
Zekrom @ Choice Specs / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder Wave / Toxic / Focus Blast / Thunder
- Roost

Specs Zekrom is not new but the concept here is not to my knowledge a public one. I wanted something that solved the problems of finding something else to safely "gather momentum" in a tier with really only U-Turn Yveltal and Lando-T (1), opens up the possibility of preserving an item on Eternatus (2), and opens up moveslots on other mons which commonly carry status (3). This is my fun experiment to do all 3: the set always lives item-holding boosted Knock Off into regular Knock Off from Yveltal after Stealth Rock or 1 Spike, it's comfortably faster than the fat grounds and Adamant Band Dracovish (you could very well lower speed and ignore this).

The first two moves are obvious. Thunder Wave I think is most consistent to punish Lunala (if Boots, then Thunder Wave into Volt Switch fishing for full paras is extremely free) and technically Xerneas (though if you're Specs > Boots, a Volt Switch is almost always better into Xern). Focus Blast is only for Ferrothorn, Toxic is way riskier but strong into Don. Thunder functions as Thunder Wave with more excitement--perhaps with a Kyogre. Roost allows it to be lasting against NDM and hazards.

:sm/necrozma-dawn-wings:
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings @ Power Herb
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Meteor Beam
- Substitute
- Power Gem / Protect / Photon Geyser / Psyshock

For the """brave""" (see: fishers) that don't run NDM or have been trying out Lando-T.
  • +1 252+ SpA Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Meteor Beam vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Yveltal: 402-474 (101.2 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That's a calc worth making a meme set for. Anyways, the idea is to get a free Substitute on a scared, slower mon and go for the Meteor Beam boost in hopes of bagging a Yveltal or Ho-oh with it. Power Gem is if you want a second hit at +1 (for example, if they try to outplay the Meteor Beam but you maintain the boost by not yet switching out), Protect scouts for the unviable Snarl if unfortunately faced with it, and Photon Geyser is for insurance against Eternatus. Psyshock if against Mana. The speed is what I find to be a comfortable speed creep for the fat grounds--decide for yourself.

:xy/ferrothorn:
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 244 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Leech Seed

It has one immature goal: to bait Iron Defense + Body Press as the only attacking option and Knock Off Calyrex-S or Lunala with it. Awful for sure but you'll catch someone half asleep with persistence. I really want Thunder Wave or Gravity to work but they're not effective at all.

:bw/amoonguss:
Amoonguss @ Occa Berry / Rocky Helmet / Eject Button
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Foul Play / Sludge Bomb / Clear Smog
- Grass Knot

If for nothing else, the idea of getting a free sleep on something means this mon is viable-ish. Double status with Stun Spore is its only decent try, meaning that the shroom is not immediate dead weight after getting to use Spore successfully. I rep it again as I've seen no one try and use it in recent times. You can wall that Kartana used in the winter tour before it learns to run Psycho Cut, or something.

Far worse things that I won't give a whole set for as they have immediate intentions:
  • Magnezone (with a funny Magic Coat option?) + TR Boots Caly-Ice (since the NDM will probably get up rocks before it is sent to the shadow realm)
  • Eject Button Stealth Rock Lando-T or Lando-I HO lead, because we never lose sacs by clicking Explosion
  • Many variations of Toxapex (Baneful Bunker, Infestation, Block + Spite, an Assault Vest one)
  • Custap Berry Groudon, and Custap Berry Darmanitan (the latter of which gets Reversal for some reason)
 

64 Squares

Every night fucks every day up
is a Tiering Contributor
Hey so uwtt just ended so i figured id revive this thread with some cool sets and teams we used this tournament. I didn't play SS myself but we went 12-6 in ss as a team, and I want to say I built around 40% of the teams we used. Really proud of my teams performance in this tier as we had two of our starters disappear for multiple weeks and had like 6 or 7 guys who played a game of SS. Hopefully this post revives this thread as its been dead and ubers open is coming up!

(Click on images of mons for the sets!)


Iron Defense Caly Ice + Twave Geo Xern

One set I wanted to use this season was Sub Iron Defense Body Press Caly Ice, this set abuses many dusk mane builds as at +2 it has a 37.5% chance to live a sunsteel strike and guarantee lives an iron head or knock from Dusk Mane. With Iron Head increasing in popularity, it seemed to be the perfect time to make use of this set. Unfortunately Caly Ice is very slow, and you cant speed creep dusk mane anymore with seemingly every dusk mane running 220 speed, so I needed to pair it with a Twaver. Twave Geo Xern was the obvious partner for this set as it is able to twave dusk mane nearly every game. When using this core you can often raw twave with geo xern as opposed to geoing right away, and switch out coming back later when its easier to sweep/force progress. I went with sub as the last move on xern as I didnt find any of the coverage that important, and the combination of sub geo xern and sub calyrex ice can pp stall your opponents sunsteel strikes opening the way for one of the two to sweep.



Resto-Chesto Kyogre

This season we experimented a lot with different kyogre sets and one that I liked a lot was this resto chesto set. Lots of people disrespect cm ogre still and run etern as the only check. This set beats a lot of common etern sets, including the very popular dynamax cannon, mystical fire, sludge/toxic set. In the game we brought it, I paired it with a focus blast mixed zekrom to lure ferrothorn as ferro is one of the mons that gives this set trouble. Speaking of resto chesto mons, I'll also mention the dd tarrows outrage rest zygarde that I used vs fc in scl, resto chesto mons can definitely be explored further as many teams can't handle these dangerous ubers getting a second life. As for the evs on this kyogre set, they can be pretty customizable, you can run as much speed creep as u want by taking out of def and can potentially add more spa evs but the modest nature makes it pretty strong how it is.



Sub Bulk Up Groudon

This set is really cool into players who spam defensive lando T bulky offenses to deal with Groudon. I brought this in SCL vs exiline and we brought it once or twice this tour. At +1 def your sub lives lando's eq which will basically guarantee u at least one kill. Bulk up also beats foul play yveltal which is a common sd groudon answer in this metagame. You can add more speed creep if you want but this outspeeds 0 speed landos. Theres a couple options for coverage which you can consider, vs exiline i used heat crash as he had low hooh usage and it hits yveltal and lando hard, but rock move for the flyers and dtail for coil zygarde spammers are also solid options. This set definitely has flaws compared to normal offensive groudons, but vs lando spammers especially this set has a cool niche.

A couple more sets that are cool that I'm too lazy to write about in detail are: Reflect (or even Light Screen) Geo Xern which provides set up opportunities for teammates, sub dd dusk mane which is great vs players who use twave dusk mane and sucker ygod to help check dd dusker, and Band Beat Up weavile which ohko'd a Kyogre in one of mncmt's games.

As for more standard stuff that is great rn, some mons and cores we used a lot this season are: dd dtail zyg + ferrothorn, offensive hooh and hone claws yveltal.

Finally I'll talk about the greatest most spicy team I made this tour (that we brought) which is the gravity webs mncmt used:


The premise of this team was to build around the core of gravity + hypnosis lunala. Hypnosis + 3 attacks Lunala is a brutal threat to play around especially when the hypnosis has 100% accuracy. This set really preys on slow ygod teams but teams with fast ygod can give this team a lot of trouble. Mewtwo is the best user of gravity and its counter and self destruct can help lure and chip darks and steels for this team (this wasnt the game but checkout this friendly replay). To help support this core I added webs and terrain extender lele which helps deal which combined together is great at neutering marshadows effectiveness vs this team. I then added caly as it appreciates yveltal getting lured by lunala, and honestly this caly set is pretty broken vs the metagame. Finally I needed a ghost resist so went with yveltal. I was originally a standard set but my team mentioned how I was super weak to scarfers so went with this cool endure custap set as psychic terrain protects grounded scarfers like Kyogre and Caly from sucker. Just a little disclaimer to top this off, if u steal this team for open, use it at ur own risk.

Thanks for reading, hope you have fun using these sets! Feel free to reply here or pm me on discord @ 64 squares#4721 if u have any questions.
 
I think the pokemon that really brings pure guessing game to the environment is the Calyrex-Shadow, real nightmare!!

The upper limit of Calyrex-Shadow is invincible, and the lower limit is trick or nasty plot (easy sweep), if you guess wrong, you will be pierced by Calyrex-Shadow, Calyrex-Shadow has and has only one stable solution: Umbreon with the Snarl. Ygod will be destoryed by trick/np + draining kiss/disable + np, Tyranitar will be destoryed by np + grass knot.

The conventional single Ygod resistance Calyrex-Shadow is easy to overwork after being tricked, especially the single Ygod defogging team. If it is bulit with more defogging, it will inevitably be beaten by things like zekrom and goundon. When Ygod itself is weak against goundon and other thugs, choosing speed and bulk EVs is to abandon the basics and get rid in the face of choice specs Calyrex-Shadow. Moreover, Ygod must guess boxing when dealing with Calyrex-Shadow, especially after Calyrex-Shadow tricks Ygod, that is the real pure guessing game. If you lose, Calyrex-Shadow with sweep all ur team directly.
 

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