Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - Crown Tundra [Zacian-Hero Banned]

I strongly disagree the opinion that 'Calyrex-S is broken enough to deserve a suspect test' even if it really has some dangerous sets that may be huge threat to some teams.
As we all know, here exists many strong dark type pokemons in this meta, such as yveltal, zarude, urshifu, weavile, and bisharp, obstagoon sometimes, some of them can take astral barrage with ease, while rest of them can still be offensive checks. Besides, normal type pokemons are immune to astral barrage, that makes obstagoon, who is immune to both ghost type and psychic type, can act as a niche to counter calyrex without draining kiss, while posing pressure to opponent with powerful facade and knock off at the same time. And thanks to shedinja can counter xerneas and kyogre, we can also run physically defensive audino in stall teams instead of blissey to counter calyrex, since it has decent physical bulk, and gets access to knock off, a generally useful move that can threat calyrex as well. In addition, calyrex's bulk is just so so, and it's 4x weak to dark and ghost type, that makes it not hard to be revenge killed by priority moves, calyrex is also slower than many scarf users without a scarf on itself, which means subseed calyrex can be forced to switched out by u-turn yveltal+strong scarf users such as darm, calyrex itself, xerneas or pheromosa (it's faster than calyrex therefore you can run other sets such as choice band), or just some bulky mon such as ho-oh(with whirlwind).
I'd also like to further my opinion on another aspect: calyrex also provides many utilities, which makes the current meta more interesting. At first, calyrex has an excellent speed and gets access to a ghost type move with 120 BP and 100% accuracy, that makes it can act as an outstanding revenge killer, especially to webs ho, scarf calyrex can outspeed +1 necrozma and aoa etern even after webs, many balance teams rely on it to deal with webs teams. Moreover, calyrex also has many useful moves besides astral barrage, such as aromatherapy, which makes it a good cleric coupled with the threat of astral barrage and psyshock, encore/disable that can give a surprise to opposing geo xern, disable calyrex can also win sucker punch urshifu by mind games.
Overall, Calyrex-S is no doubt one of the best pokemons in this meta, but it's still not broken, I believe a meta with Calyrex-S is more balanced and interesting than a meta without it.
 
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SparksBlade

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Since I'm nicer than Fc and Lasen, I'll try to give an actual reply.

in a meta full of ubers
Firstly, the label of being an "Uber", surprisingly, does not matter in the tier itself. The label is given to a mon when OU bans it, and has no significance on its relevance in our tier.

just to have an better advantage over a single mon
- Weavile is good on its own, being a Ghost resist in Calyrex meta is just bonus. Its stabs are good, speed is good, and movepool is not bad.
- Bisharp is not as good, but some people like to use it on Dark spam because of the general lack of Dark resists in most teams besides Yveltal (which just ends up boosting their Dark type moves). Again, people don't use it because of Calyrex, but they get the opportunity to use it because of Calyrex.
- Obstagoon is very niche, and really only FatFighter2 uses it, and nobody seriously suggests people to use it.

Incidentally, Bisharp and Obstagoon aren't even on the Viability Rankings.

instead of resolving an issue let's instead go around it in the most meandering way possible
I don't think many people suggest using Weavile/Bisharp just to check Calyrex, specially not as the sole Ghost resist, so I'm don't know why you think that those mons are being used as some excuse to go around the problem "in the most meandering way possible".

Finally, if a decent majority of the players, specially that play and do well in tournaments, don't think Calyrex is a problem then maybe you can try looking at it differently. Other than that, it's still subjective at the end of the day so you can believe whatever you want.
 
ah yes because using weavile, bisharp, and obstagoon in a meta full of ubers just to have an better advantage over a single mon justifies the meta as being healthy. instead of resolving an issue let's instead go around it in the most meandering way possible.
It's a pity to say that you comprehend little about what I wanna pointed out. Calyrex-S is healthy not for 'we can use bisharp, obstagoon, etc to check or counter it', but for how it acts in games, especially tournaments.
 

SparksBlade

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i was bored and decided to entertain myself with ss ubers yes very exciting.

Moves and teammates
SM OU

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |   63 |  92.65% |  53.97% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   55 |  80.88% |  43.64% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   53 |  77.94% |  49.06% |
| 4    | Xerneas-*          |   25 |  36.76% |  44.00% |
| 5    | Groudon            |   20 |  29.41% |  55.00% |
| 6    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   19 |  27.94% |  36.84% |
| 7    | Ho-Oh              |   16 |  23.53% |  75.00% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |   14 |  20.59% |  57.14% |
| 8    | Zekrom             |   14 |  20.59% |  57.14% |
| 10   | Kyogre             |   10 |  14.71% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Lunala             |    9 |  13.24% |  55.56% |
| 11   | Ferrothorn         |    9 |  13.24% |  44.44% |
| 13   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    8 |  11.76% |  62.50% |
| 14   | Blissey            |    6 |   8.82% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Marshadow          |    6 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 16   | Tyranitar          |    5 |   7.35% |   0.00% |
| 17   | Landorus           |    4 |   5.88% |  25.00% |
| 18   | Heatran            |    3 |   4.41% | 100.00% |
| 18   | Slurpuff           |    3 |   4.41% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Kyurem-Black       |    3 |   4.41% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Rayquaza           |    3 |   4.41% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Magnezone          |    3 |   4.41% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Zarude-Dada        |    3 |   4.41% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Landorus-Therian   |    3 |   4.41% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Shuckle            |    3 |   4.41% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Skarmory           |    3 |   4.41% |  33.33% |
| 27   | Grimmsnarl         |    2 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Calyrex-Ice        |    2 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Cloyster           |    2 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Clefable           |    2 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Tapu Fini          |    2 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Tapu Koko          |    2 |   2.94% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Tangrowth          |    2 |   2.94% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Buzzwole           |    2 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Giratina           |    2 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Audino             |    2 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Tapu Bulu          |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Urshifu-*          |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Venusaur           |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Terrakion          |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Hippowdon          |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Solgaleo           |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Weavile            |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Scolipede          |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Dugtrio            |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Magearna           |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Arctozolt          |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Abomasnow          |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Slowbro            |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Ditto              |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Amoonguss          |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Zamazenta-*        |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Celebi             |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Melmetal           |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Delibird           |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Lucario            |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Dragonite          |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Suicune            |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Shedinja           |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Giratina-Origin    |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Excadrill          |    1 |   1.47% |   0.00% |


Moves and teammates
SM OU

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |   86 |  97.73% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   74 |  84.09% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   66 |  75.00% |  48.48% |
| 4    | Groudon            |   28 |  31.82% |  53.57% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   28 |  31.82% |  39.29% |
| 6    | Kyogre             |   26 |  29.55% |  46.15% |
| 7    | Marshadow          |   24 |  27.27% |  66.67% |
| 8    | Xerneas-*          |   21 |  23.86% |  61.90% |
| 9    | Landorus-Therian   |   17 |  19.32% |  58.82% |
| 9    | Zygarde            |   17 |  19.32% |  58.82% |
| 11   | Ferrothorn         |   15 |  17.05% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Ho-Oh              |   15 |  17.05% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Lunala             |   10 |  11.36% |  20.00% |
| 14   | Weavile            |    8 |   9.09% |  62.50% |
| 14   | Clefable           |    8 |   9.09% |  25.00% |
| 16   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    7 |   7.95% |  71.43% |
| 16   | Zekrom             |    7 |   7.95% |  42.86% |
| 18   | Blissey            |    6 |   6.82% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Calyrex-Ice        |    6 |   6.82% |  33.33% |
| 20   | Toxapex            |    5 |   5.68% |  60.00% |
| 20   | Slurpuff           |    5 |   5.68% |  20.00% |
| 22   | Aerodactyl         |    4 |   4.55% |  75.00% |
| 22   | Rayquaza           |    4 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Pheromosa          |    4 |   4.55% |  25.00% |
| 22   | Urshifu-*          |    4 |   4.55% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Magnezone          |    3 |   3.41% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Chansey            |    3 |   3.41% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Xatu               |    3 |   3.41% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Zamazenta-*        |    3 |   3.41% |  66.67% |
| 30   | Skarmory           |    2 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Giratina-Origin    |    2 |   2.27% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Buzzwole           |    2 |   2.27% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Landorus           |    2 |   2.27% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Dracovish          |    2 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Tapu Lele          |    2 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Mew                |    1 |   1.14% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Cloyster           |    1 |   1.14% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Heatran            |    1 |   1.14% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Shuckle            |    1 |   1.14% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Genesect           |    1 |   1.14% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Tyranitar          |    1 |   1.14% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Giratina           |    1 |   1.14% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Magearna           |    1 |   1.14% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Mewtwo             |    1 |   1.14% |   0.00% |


Moves and teammates
SM OU

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |  149 |  95.51% |  51.68% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |  129 |  82.69% |  47.29% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |  119 |  76.28% |  48.74% |
| 4    | Groudon            |   48 |  30.77% |  54.17% |
| 5    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   47 |  30.13% |  38.30% |
| 6    | Xerneas-*          |   46 |  29.49% |  52.17% |
| 7    | Kyogre             |   36 |  23.08% |  47.22% |
| 8    | Ho-Oh              |   31 |  19.87% |  67.74% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |   31 |  19.87% |  58.06% |
| 10   | Marshadow          |   30 |  19.23% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Ferrothorn         |   24 |  15.38% |  54.17% |
| 12   | Zekrom             |   21 |  13.46% |  52.38% |
| 13   | Landorus-Therian   |   20 |  12.82% |  55.00% |
| 14   | Lunala             |   19 |  12.18% |  36.84% |
| 15   | Darmanitan-Galar   |   15 |   9.62% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Blissey            |   12 |   7.69% |  41.67% |
| 17   | Clefable           |   10 |   6.41% |  40.00% |
| 18   | Weavile            |    9 |   5.77% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Calyrex-Ice        |    8 |   5.13% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Slurpuff           |    8 |   5.13% |  37.50% |
| 21   | Rayquaza           |    7 |   4.49% |  57.14% |
| 22   | Magnezone          |    6 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Landorus           |    6 |   3.85% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Tyranitar          |    6 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Skarmory           |    5 |   3.21% |  60.00% |
| 25   | Toxapex            |    5 |   3.21% |  60.00% |
| 25   | Urshifu-*          |    5 |   3.21% |  40.00% |
| 28   | Aerodactyl         |    4 |   2.56% |  75.00% |
| 28   | Heatran            |    4 |   2.56% |  75.00% |
| 28   | Zamazenta-*        |    4 |   2.56% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Pheromosa          |    4 |   2.56% |  25.00% |
| 28   | Buzzwole           |    4 |   2.56% |  25.00% |
| 28   | Shuckle            |    4 |   2.56% |  25.00% |
| 34   | Cloyster           |    3 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Chansey            |    3 |   1.92% |  66.67% |
| 34   | Xatu               |    3 |   1.92% |  66.67% |
| 34   | Kyurem-Black       |    3 |   1.92% |  66.67% |
| 34   | Giratina-Origin    |    3 |   1.92% |  33.33% |
| 34   | Zarude-Dada        |    3 |   1.92% |  33.33% |
| 34   | Giratina           |    3 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Grimmsnarl         |    2 |   1.28% | 100.00% |
| 41   | Tapu Fini          |    2 |   1.28% | 100.00% |
| 41   | Magearna           |    2 |   1.28% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Tapu Koko          |    2 |   1.28% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Tangrowth          |    2 |   1.28% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Dracovish          |    2 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Tapu Lele          |    2 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Audino             |    2 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Mew                |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Tapu Bulu          |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Venusaur           |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Terrakion          |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Hippowdon          |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Solgaleo           |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Scolipede          |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Dugtrio            |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Arctozolt          |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Abomasnow          |    1 |   0.64% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Genesect           |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Mewtwo             |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Slowbro            |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Ditto              |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Amoonguss          |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Celebi             |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Melmetal           |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Delibird           |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Lucario            |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Dragonite          |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Suicune            |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Shedinja           |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Excadrill          |    1 |   0.64% |   0.00% |


in case you're wondering "wasn't there a circuit playoff between these tours" you're right i started by just searching for seasonal threads in the circuits subforum and when i was almost done i also remembered that. but at this point im too tired of looking at names of mons and numbers
 

Fc

Waiting for something to happen?
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Ubers Leader
So when are Uber players gonna realize that having to slap Yveltal on every team just to deal with a clearly broken mon is just as bad as having to put Toad on a team for Vish in OU?
When a broken mon appears in the metagame, haven't seen one yet.

there's a lot of things I have to say about this, I got essays on essays already in this thread, but no, caly-s isn't broken, and no, just because OU did something doesn't mean ubers does. We do our tiering very differently, as clearly shown by most ubers gens having one or multiple pokemon above 60% usage. Yveltal is an incredible glue mon and actually keeps the threat in check, not being a shitmon that limits teams like other defensive mons it's compared to. We've had multiple surveys and the general opinion is that caly-s isn't broken, and most of the top players agree. Another survey will be held after ubers open / UPL depending on timing, but these posts without substance don't add anything to the thread and are inaccurate on the tiering model of ubers.
 
So when are Uber players gonna realize that having to slap Yveltal on every team just to deal with a clearly broken mon is just as bad as having to put Toad on a team for Vish in OU?
I think that there are arguments for Calyrex-S not being a particularly healthy presence in the metagame but this whole one liner is kind of a gigantic false equivalence because of the very important distinction of Yveltal being an amazing pokemon either way. There's almost no opportunity cost to having Yveltal whereas Seismitoad wasn't even good on most teams. I don't like to re-open discussion for the Calyrex brain drain but I don't think what you're saying is in particularly good faith

When a broken mon appears in the metagame, haven't seen one yet.
Was Kyogre unable to make it lol jk but only kinda
 
| 49 | Delibird | 1 | 0.64% | [CENSORED] % |
Delibird's increased usage this season certainly may be surprising for less experienced Ubers players. However for those paying attention to the metagame trends at large, the rise of Delibird was inevitable.

In a hazards dominated metagames such as Ubers, maintaining advantage in the hazards game is a critical component to winning in the tier. Many Pokemon such as Kyogre, Necrozma Dusk-Maned, and Groudon take critical chip damage from entry hazards and will be put into thresholds where they will be unable to sweep or check dangerous threats such as Geomancy Xerneas after switching a few times. Enter Delibird: a Pokemon that is not only able to compress the utility of Spikes and an entry hazard removing moves in one teamslot, but also has the option of running both Defog and Rapid Spin on the same set in order prolong entry hazard setters in the PP stalling game. Unlike other Rapid Spinners, Delibird poses a massive threat to spinblockers such as Giratina-O or Marshadow, as neither wants to absorb Delibird's freezing hustle boosted Ice Punch or Aerial Ace. Similarly, Defoggers such as Yveltal will think twice before switching in, lest they feel the wrath of Delibird's powerful Ice Punch.

Now these traits are good and all, but what makes Delibird such an elite Pokemon is how its utility extends beyond these traits. Delibird's priority Ice Shard is a critical to keep the tier together against many destructive sweepers such Zygarde-C, Yveltal, Groudon, and Zekrom that many teams so desperately struggle to find an answer to. Additionally, Delibird's Rapid Spin means that its often major sweeping threat itself, with many Ubers walls such as Groudon fearing the disgusting power of its Hustle boosted Ice Punch. Its one counter, Necrozma-Dusk Maned, also isn't entirely safe either, as Delibird is able to lure it in with Destiny Bond, allowing its partner, Xerneas, to sweep with ease. The 50/50s it creates with Destiny Bond are also important as it grants Delibird the oppurtunity to lay down more layers of spikes.

I look forward to seeing how Delibird's usage will evolve in upcoming tournaments.
 
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Delibird's increased usage this season certainly may be surprising for less experienced Ubers players. However for those paying attention to the metagame trends at large, such a trend has been a long time coming.

In a hazards dominated metagames such as Ubers, maintaining advantage in the hazards game is a critical component to winning in the tier. Many Pokemon such as Kyogre, Necrozma Dusk-Maned, and Groudon take critical chip damage from entry hazards and will be put into thresholds where they will be unable to sweep or check dangerous threats such as Geomancy Xerneas after switching a few times. Enter Delibird: a Pokemon that is not only able to compress the utility of Spikes and an entry hazard removing moves in one teamslot, but also has the option of running both Defog and Rapid Spin on the same set in order prolong entry hazard setters in the PP stalling game. Unlike other Rapid Spinners, Delibird poses a massive threat to spinblockers such as Giratina-O or Marshadow, as neither wants to absorb Delibird's freezing hustle boosted Ice Punch or Aerial Ace. Similarly, Defoggers such as Yveltal will think twice before switching in, lest they feel the wrath of Delibird's powerful Ice Punch.

Now these traits are good and all, but what makes Delibird such an Elite Pokemon is how its utility extends beyond these traits. Delibird's priority Ice Shard is a critical to keep the tier together against many destructive sweepers such Zygarde-C, Yveltal, Groudon, and Zekrom that many teams so desperately struggle to find an answer to. Additionally, Delibird's Rapid Spin means that its often major sweeping threat itself, with many Ubers walls such as Groudon fearing the disgusting power of its Hustle boosted Ice Punch. Its one counter, Necrozma-Dusk Maned, also isn't entirely safe either, as Delibird is able to lure it is with Destiny Bond, allowing its partner, Xerneas, to sweep with easy. The 50/50s it creates with Destiny Bond are also important as it grants Delibird the oppurtunity to lay down more layers of spikes.

I look forward to seeing how Delibird's usage will evolve in upcoming tournaments.
After learning about this top threat I will now procede to produce a team using it and other top threats such as Audino
 
So uh, are people happy with the metagame? Are things meaningfully less centralized than in the Zacian meta?
I like it more now, though I would ban Shadow Calyrex if I could. If you don’t have Yveltal it will KO something and it’s quicker than anything without a Scarf. Not saying it’s broken per se, I just fucking hate it.
 
HISTORY OF HYPER OFFENSE/WEATHER TEAMS IN GENERATION 8
I've always been a fan of hyper offense for the whole generation, being my first (and only as to this date) RMT, and as i'm pretty bored and got nothing else to do, i wanted to take a look at how the playstyle has evolved during the generation, both for metagame development and release of the new DLCs. Disclaimer that i will only be looking at tournaments and no ladder stats.

(during the writing of this post, i wasn't really sure if the weather teams i was going to list we're by definition Hyper Offense, as i am not sure what the exact definition is, but to keep this post more interesting i decided to include weather teams anyways.)

SS 1.0

The simplest and innocent era of Ubers. At the time of its release, the only legendary Pokemon being available were Zacian, Zamazenta, their crowned forms, and Eternatus. The meta was super oriented towards more defensive balances that could make the best use of the few hard hitters the tier had, mainly Dracovish, Zacian-Crowned, Darmanitan-Galar and Eternatus. HO has hardly seen any usage during this time, but there are a few teams with very cool approaches to the style.

Crucify vs Sharow - Most Wanted
vs

This is the first instance of an Hyper Offense being ever brought to a team tour (that i could find, at least). Sharow's team makes amazing use of the passiveness of the meta with Taunt and Status moves, especially seen in the bizarre and unusual Mimikyu set. Gyarados alone was able to clean crucifys entire team after just the hazards setters and Mimikyu dealt all the chip necessary.

Crucify vs Icemaster - Most Wanted
vs

Accelgor resurrects from the BW hell to make one appearance, only to be sent back immediately after. Real star of the show here is Zacian-Crowned, that pretty much wins the whole game alone. Usually Rocky Helmet Corviknight + Scarf Dugtrio would have been enough counterplay, but crucify catches the Dugtrio by surprise with Quick Attack and KOs it.

Crucify vs 0kay - Most Wanted
vs

The next replay won't feature crucify, i promise. First time that we see Baton Pass used! Polteageist was one of the most dangerous at the time and Weezing-Galar was an actual abuser of it, mainly because Neutralizing Gas would block Ditto from copying it. Other than that, really standard game, Zacian-Crowned miss at the start sets crucify immediately behind and he ends up losing the game.

Exiline vs Hack - Most Wanted
vs

Hack's team is not too different from the HOs we've seen so far, but the Jolteon set really stands out. Focus Energy with Baton Pass to give higher rate of crit to sweepers, Quick Feet and Flame Orb makes it able to Baton Pass even against Scarf Dugtrio, and i honestly can't tell you what Copycat does, but it ends up winning Hack the game. Pretty fun idea that turned out to work.

HO went 4-0 in Most Wanted! With a bit of luck sure, but even with their low usage, not too bad so far!

Excadrill + Tyranitar was a popular duo of pokemon during this time, altho all sand teams around this we're pretty much bulky balances. Other weather duos we're Pelipper + Dracovish, and Torkoal + Charizard + Zacian, but those never developed into full weather teams, at least for now.

SS 2.0

Home just released, and with it new Pokemon are added to the game. A lot of familiar faces like Lunala, Necrozma-Dusk-Main and Marshadow came back to the tier, but how has HO evolved?


cromagnet vs Garay Oak - Ubers Winter Seasonal V
vs

While the usual Screens / Hazard stack HO with hard hitters were still around, it's not those i wanna focus around.





(click on the sprites for a replay with the team)

It's around this time that Rain starts rising in viability, with numerous great abusers like Drednaw, Dracovish and Seismitoad. Drednaws Gigantamax move was a strong physical Water stab that setup Stealth Rocks at the same time, giving it amazing utility on top of being generally hard to switch into. It also helped that Dynamax list was added around this time, stopping most of the Ubers from being able to Dynamax. Seismitoad coverage makes its an highly dangerous Pokemon in rain, while Dracovish just does what it does best. The playstyle was also immensely helped by Lunala, who could Teleport for free any Pokemon in. Last team even contains Trick Room in it!


SS 3.0

The first DLC has just released! A couple new Pokemon are back and some new we're added. Will full rain drop in usage? Gain more? What about the standard HO builds?

Shuwri vs Alpha Rabbit - UPL VIII
vs

Magearna was a powerful Pokemon in HO, being able to Baton Pass a Shift Gear to whatever physical attacker. In this replay we can see this strategy being used by both Alpha Rabbit and Shuwri. Eventually, this strategy would turn out to be way too strong, and Baton Pass gets banned.

Slideshow of some interesting HO/Rain builds (all from UPL VIII):





(click on the sprites for a replay with the team)

However, it doesn't stop here. It's around this time that full sun teams start growing in popularity, and rise in usage.

1| 2 | 3
1 | 2

Charizard Gigamax under Sun is just as scary as Dracovish. It's fire stab applied dot damage for 4 turns to any non-fire Pokemon, while Flying Dynamax move would boost its speed. Zacian-Crowned makes use of the sun in order to use Solar Blade, destroying its best check in Quagsire. Eternatus has now access to a powerful Flamethrower, being able to 2hko the physical NDMs of the time.

To this point, most sand teams still rely to the simple combo of Tyranitar + Excadrill, with a more defensive approach.

SS 4.0

And here we are, to the modern era of Generation 8. Dynamax is now fully banned, which pretty much kills all full weather teams. A shame in my opinion, but hyper offense is still as strong as ever. Yveltal, Kyogre, Calyrex-Shadow, Groudon, Rayquaza, Xerneas, all Pokemon that were added with DLC 2 and that fit incredibly well in hyper offense teams. Here's a quick showcase of some builds at the time:

(From Most Wanted II):






After a couple of months, both the Zacian forms end up banned, and while HOs have now lost a great abuser, they've also lost one of the many obstascoles to it, as non-web teams would struggle against Zacians high speed and power. With both the Zacians gone, Weavile takes the spot in a lot of HO teams, as its stabs are pretty much unresisted for the whole tier. Here are some fast examples:

(From UPL X):


Another Pokemon that saw particular usage in HO builds was:

:ss/landorus:
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

The idea of the set was to lure in Yveltal to Defog, just to explode on their face and get an easy win with Calyrex-Shadow. Here's an SCL replay featuring it:


Unfortunately, it has now lost any surprise factor, so its not as effective.

Conclusion

It's safe to say Hyper Offense has been always a huge force trough the whole generation, and has always been able to adapt to meta shifts. I think HO is as stronger now than ever, and i doubt its gonna get any different any time soon.

Didn't expect to make such a long post lmao, wanted to include a bit of the current HO leads but i'll keep it to this for now. First time doing a post like this so i hope its enjoyable. Was fun to take a look back not only at a playstyle, but the whole generation and see how much has changed. Thank you for reading!
 
Last edited:

Manaphy

STILL lookin for Japanese QT 3.14 GF
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Hi, I wanted to make a post about this new Calyrex-S set I created because I think it's pretty cool and I think SS is needing some innovation right now. I used to make these sort of posts all the time back in the day so here we go again :-]

ADC65C8F-2106-4856-A701-128EE94209E9.png

Calyrex-Shadow @ Mental Herb / Leftovers
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 64 Def / 160 SpA / 32 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Disable
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot

I've been calling this "Demon Caly" after the meme of naming sets that are really annoying to force out of battle like CP Etern and Waves Zyg. I know at first glance Disable looks gimmicky as fuck but hear me out, I theorymonned this one out a lot before putting it into practice, and after giving it to my teammates in dialgas it's already gotten 3 wins at top level SS play, such as me vs ice, Fog vs suapah and crying vs 64 squares

So the basic concept is this: get Caly into battle and hopefully force in Yveltal. On the switch you are free to NP or Sub. At this point, Yveltal has to break your sub, so they will attack with Knock/Foul Play, so you are free to get your sub up/NP up.
Now you will have a +2 Caly in front of Yveltal with no sub. Here, you can Disable their Knock/Foul, leaving Yveltal with no attack to hit you with. At this point, they will likely U-Turn if they have it, allowing you to Sub up again, as this set is EV'd to never have its Subs broken by U-Turn. From here, you are pretty much guaranteed a kill; even if they go to something that can take a +2 astral, like a full HP Etern, you are free to NP up again to +4 and OHKO it. Even max/max Yveltal will get 2HKOed by +4 Astral, meaning that is no longer a safe switch-in at this point either. From there, you are potentially able to sweep depending on who the opponent has left alive and their team structure; probably, you will be forced out by Shadow Sneak Marsh or a Scarfer, but if they don't have that, then you can go for another cycle against Yveltal and fish for more kills. Even if they do have a revenge killer, there's nothing stopping this set from coming in later. It also works wonders should Yve get paralyzed/poisoned, allowing you to fish even harder.
Once the opponent knows what this set is, it's a bit harder to get things going. The turn when you Disable is the vulnerable turn, as the opponent could read this and hard switch into their Scarfer/Marsh. Of course, as the Caly user, you can read this play yourself and Sub up again.

"Mana why tf does this use Mental Herb you are TRASH"
"This shit is too matchup fishy!"
Perhaps:smogthink: But I think a cool advantage of this set is beating Taunt Yveltal which usually beats SubSeed Caly, thus opening up this set's usefulness against more matchups. In any case, I think you are going to have to fish for MU at least a little bit in SS.
However, I do think Lefties is a viable option, as it allows you to fish with more Substitutes, especially should this set ever be used more often. Leftovers can bluff a SubSeed set which can be useful in certain situations, like against Sucker Punch Yve.
Mental Herb also feigns a Choice set, which can be useful to get the opponent to hard in their Yve allowing you to set-up. It also does funny things against HO Teams; offensive Yveltal will get cleanly 2HKOed at +2 and if they attempt to Taunt your Sub, it's pretty much GG. Shuckle also gets cucked if they decide to Encore, giving you pretty free set-up unless they are Red Card.

Another nice advantage of this set compared to SubSeed is that you don't have to rely on Leech Seed and its janky 90% accuracy, and this also means Zarude won't just wall you.

That being said, this set does have some weaknesses:
-:yveltal:Yveltal with Knock and Foul Play on the same set
This Yveltal tends to be pretty rare which makes this Caly set quite strong. Also, this Yve set loses to SubSeed Caly, meaning it's hard to prep for both sets.
-:blissey:Blissey
You can't fit Psyshock so you get hard walled by any Normal-type really. GOATed mon! Thankfully, Blissey isn't too common.
-:ho-oh:Whirlwind Ho-Oh
This actually isn't a guaranteed loss but it does mean you have to be more conscientious about how you use this set. The main problem is that Ho-Oh lives a +2 Astral. Of course, weakening Ho-Oh before this works; another option is to Nasty Plot after you Disable Yve and force it out; this will get you to +4 and allow you to OHKO Ho-Oh (of course, the risk here is they U-Turn into their scarfer/marsh). Finally, you can just hope they don't have Whirlwind after seeing team preview, since a lot of Ho-Oh go more offensive nowadays and there is a good shot they have Defog/Thunder Wave/Substitute/Toxic/Curse instead of Whirlwind.
-:yveltal:Attack-invested U-Turn + Revenge killer
Theoretically possible but the Caly user is free to run a lot more Defense than I listed above (personally I do, but I didn't want to reveal all my secrets)
You only need like, 76 SpAtk EVs to 2HKO all Yveltal at +4, so you are free to run more bulk in any way you like.
The EVs I have listed above live non-attack invested U-Turn, while the Special Defense EVs mean this Caly tanks 2 Dmax Cannons from Eternatus.
-:yveltal:Snarl Yveltal
You are a counterteaming mfer if you load this up >:[

On Sucker Punch:
This set will still usually work against such Yveltal, because you would normally have to be a crackhead to Sucker in front of a Caly that is spamming Sub/NP. Theoretically, if you knew this caly set beforehand, you could throw out Sucker Punch on the turn they Disable, and due to Sucker's priority it would be disabled instead of Knock/Foul; of course, this is vulnerable to being NP'd/Sub on should the Caly user read this.

Ideally, you want to get this set in cleanly as that will give you the most HP to fish with Substitutes. My personal preference is Eject Pack :eternatus:; Typically, most people will bring in NDM on Eternatus, so DracoPack will allow you to bring in Caly on a slightly damaged NDM. Since Specs Caly will always OHKO a slightly damaged NDM, the opponent doesn't have much choice but to hard in their Yveltal here, giving you a very clean set-up opportunity.
Even when this didn't work exactly to plan, such as my game vs ice, it weakened Yve enough to the point that Caly was still a massive threat thanks to Caly threatening to 2HKO, allowing me to set-up on his own Draco Etern.
Other options I could see working well could be Teleport Blissey or U-Turn Landorus. Even U-Turn Yveltal can work, although some people can be ballsy with their Etern and stay in expecting to take a Trick (and god forbid run Shadow Ball), so keep in mind that it's a bit risky.

Overall, I consider this set to be something which will usually get a least one KO with proper use, if not more, instead of something that will sweep outright. Usually that KO or two will be something that isn't Yveltal, so it's good to pair with teammates that can exploit the holes in the rest of the team. Even if this set just gets one KO and GTFOs, I still consider it as a great trade, since you still have a Caly that can come in later and revenge kill/clean up weakened teams. Try it out!:quagchamppogsire:
 

Eledyr

Le vilain petit Wooloo
is a Pre-Contributor
The release of another community survey marks the perfect opportunity and time to make this post. After reading, I sincerely hope community members will carefully reflect on their experiences playing SS Ubers and vote to favor a suspect test for Calyrex-S.

Calyrex-S is an offensive threat that forces every team to run at least two checks to it. Many teams run Yveltal + a revenge killer as their primary defense against it. Unfortunately, Calyrex-S has the tools to overcome all of its so-called checks.

Although the safest check thus far has been Yveltal, people have discovered innovative methods to bypass it. The first set to have done so was SubSeed Calyrex-S. SubSeed variants are incredibly potent and are generally checked by using Snarl on Yveltal or investing a considerable amount of attack so that U-Turn into a faster offensive threat beats Calyrex-S. However, many SubSeed Calyrex-S run significant amounts of defense not to have its Substitute broken by U-Turn, so this strategy doesn't always work.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-555128

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-555989

Here we have two games above from Winter Seasonal VI (SiTuM vs. TrueNora and Lacus Ichinose vs. Gareeb) in which Calyrex-S beat Yveltal 1v1 because Yveltal without Snarl loses this match-up.

Nevertheless, SubSeed Calyrex-S was not enough to push most Ubers players into viewing it as an oppressive threat to the metagame. However, recent events in UPL X and ULT IV Playoffs have reflected a devastating new tool Calyrex-S can utilize that utterly beats every viable Yveltal set. That tool is none other than Disable.

Sub NP Disable and Specs Trick Disable are two of the deadliest sets to face, especially the latter since it beats every Yveltal set. Disable Calyrex-S can manifest itself on virtually all team structures in the current metagame; even HO teams have begun dropping Psyshock on their Calyrex-S to opt for Disable and defeat Sucker Punch Yveltal. Manaphy summarized it best in his post just above.

Here are a few games demonstrating the sheer potency of Substitute + Disable Calyrex-S:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-630094 (Icemaster vs. Manaphy from UPL X)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-631814 (Fogbound Lake vs. Suapah from UPL X)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1598708086-tozjqx6e3iji3rdnzgy16uhcg2ljbd4pw

(Kate vs. GeniusFromHoenn from ULT IV Playoffs - this game is funny because Kate opted to use Bright Powder or Lax Incense for the meme culture, and it worked.)

Additionally, here is a game demonstrating another variation of Disable Calyrex-S that easily beats Yvletal:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-633664 (TJ vs. Stresh from UPL X)

This Calyrex-S set functions like a traditional Specs breaker, dealing a whopping amount of damage to anything not named Yveltal. Once the Yveltal gets tricked, its only options are to attack, click Roost, or switch into something that potentially gets one shot by Astral Barrage. Unfortunately, Calyrex-S can Protect to scout for whatever move its opponent may click and Disable it after that.

Furthermore, from the later rounds of the recent Ubers Open, consider the following usage statistics:

5 | Calyrex-Shadow | 25 | 40.32% | 64.00% |

Calyrex-S obtained the single highest win rate out of all Pokemon used more than twenty times and finished with the fifth-highest usage (behind Yveltal, NDM, Eternatus, and Groudon):

47 | Calyrex-Shadow / Marshadow | 4 | 6.45% | 100.00% |

Although Calyrex-S + Marshadow was only used four times in Open, it had a perfect win rate, further corroborating its already insane status as one of the most potent offense cores in the metagame.

1 | Yveltal | 62 | 100.00% | 50.00% |

I've spent considerable time talking about Yveltal because it's the most viable check to Calyrex-S, as evidenced by its 100% usage in the later rounds of Ubers Open.

What's genuinely surprising is the notion that the existence of Yveltal helped keep Calyrex-S at bay and made it a healthy part of the current metagame, when this could not be further from the truth. The sheer number of equally viable and dangerous sets it can run makes Calyrex-S a versatile force. Indeed, much like its banned predecessor Zacian, it can overcome its most common check (Yveltal) if that check happens to run into the wrong set.

As two-thirds of the most prevalent defensive backbone in SS Ubers, Yveltal and Eternatus are often common switch-ins to various threats. They are liable to get afflicted by status or worn down by entry hazards over time, thanks to the ubiquity of Knock Off. Unless the opposing Yveltal is healthy throughout the game, it cannot meaningfully check Calyrex-S. Some teams opt to run a secondary defensive check like Ho-Oh or Blissey. Unfortunately, devastating offense partners for Calyrex-S like Groudon and Marshadow decimate these checks, which is why the former had such a high usage rate and the latter had a perfect win rate when paired with Calyrex-S.

I insist, statistics are only a part of the truth and not the truth. However, in my opinion, the inclusion of Calyrex-S oppresses SS Ubers into an unhealthy and stale metagame, and the degree of restriction it imposes on the builder is unprecedented.
 

BasedWhat?

Party rockers
I strongly disagree the opinion that 'Calyrex-S is broken enough to deserve a suspect test'
This will always be my favorite. For some reason we in practice reserve suspect tests to things that, honestly, the council wants banned and are most clearly broken. I never understood why if there is a single Pokemon on the radar (because we easily can argue Caly-S was our only issue for months before Magnezone took off), why not suspect it and see what happens? Is a regular check-up on a metagame unhealthly when all it can do is demonstrate greater care and improve the activity on the ladder? We can check for voter manipulation on the vote to be safe and then, you know, avoid all of this sort of annoying nothing-discussion and creative jadedness that comes with a single mon. Instead, "we have no reason to because the new gen is coming" and other excuses I've heard about a year ago.

I'm so taken aback with the mental gymnastics of arguments involving having the right Yveltal set to beat SubSeed, correctly guess Calyrex-S Trick turns, and magically win Sucker Punch and Disable switching 50/50s.
Sub NP Disable and Specs Trick Disable are two of the deadliest sets to face, especially the latter since it beats every Yveltal set. Disable Calyrex-S can manifest itself on virtually all team structures in the current metagame; even HO teams have begun dropping Psyshock on their Calyrex-S to opt for Disable and defeat Sucker Punch Yveltal. Manaphy summarized it best in his post just above.

Here are a few games demonstrating the sheer potency of Substitute + Disable Calyrex-S:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-630094 (Icemaster vs. Manaphy from UPL X)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-631814 (Fogbound Lake vs. Suapah from UPL X)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1598708086-tozjqx6e3iji3rdnzgy16uhcg2ljbd4pw
(Kate vs. GeniusFromHoenn from ULT IV Playoffs - this game is funny because Kate opted to use Bright Powder or Lax Incense for the meme culture, and it worked.)
Additionally, here is a game demonstrating another variation of Disable Calyrex-S that easily beats Yvletal:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-633664 (TJ vs. Stresh from UPL X)
Some of the post is a little misleading but this middle part is nothing short of spot-on. Career politicians could placate their crowds better than some of the people action-calling Ubers.
 

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