Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - Crown Tundra [Zacian-Hero Banned]

BasedWhat?

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i also encourage everyone, not testing jokler's sets, sadly (even if i think wp zekrom is a cool idea), but to try and be a little more creative in your building. using yveltal + dm + eternatus is good, but it's incredibly boring, and we're jumping into the same kind of shitty meta like in usm, where you could pdon + mag + yveltal and win any kind of matchup you wanted. i wont give any ideas, as i'm still in ssnl and i'm cooking some fire, but please, innovate.
This is a really toxic way of putting it. The meta is inherently devoid of new playstyles/cores and there's only so much "innovating" that can still happen until suspect tests (presumably) ban things. The three mon core everyone sees isn't a sign of laziness as much as it is an indication that there's a greater problem with Ubers. Don't get burned cooking with fire. I'm not saying you can't build, but it's very suspect to claim serious hidden treasures remain in the tier/builder.



Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 16 HP / 244 Atk / 16 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Scale Shot
- Thousand Waves
- Rest
I really like this set on paper and it could probably be optimized further with Defense investment--I recognize the current speed is for +3 to outpace Calyrex-Shadow but the defensive capability is something of note. My main complaint is that it's a Groudon check that doesn't pack the speed or defense or moves to check a Swords Dance set--for that reason you sort of lose a mon to build a defensive core... that doesn't do any single defensive job on its own. Might have to optimize for when KingBillu plays FE finals next year.

Now, this is just plain wrong. TR is DEFINITELY not "sadly useless". It is the easily the most common Calyrex Ice set used (76% according to Pikalytics), and for good reason. Offence is know to run rampant in Ubers and Ditto has fair usage too and having a tool this powerful to turn the tables on them is invaluable. TR, while niche, is also a difficult matchup for offence, again improved by Calyrex. You say that it requires many turns to set up for it to sweep but it only requires the one to set up TR against something it can get policy activated into chilling neigh or maximum two if it plans on SDing into TR. With it's near Giratina level bulk, that scenario is not exactly difficult to come by either. As to it not being in a correct position to sweep and the mons you mentioned, there are always going to be checks to every mon. You don't expect to sweep with Zygarde until their Buzzwole is alive. Calyrex is not supposed to sweep turn 1. It is supposed to clean up offence or break open a team depending on what you require from it. Calyrex at the very LEAST can create dangerous pins for your opponents, one of their mons falls so Calyrex's teammates are that much more closer to overwhelming them and it usually does a lot more. Secondly, even the mons that you mentioned are fundamentally flawed in checking Calyrex Ice.
Trick Room is essentially worse Screens HO unfortunately. The sole fact that Grimmsnarl can get them up with priority at least once makes it considerably better. The analytics you mentioned are a little misleading because it's of those that use it conditionally. Calyrex-Ice is an underrated mon that's battered by hazards and competes with Zacian/Zekrom as a breaker, and has to decide on Boots/Sash/Band depending on the team. A lot of its problems are also seen in Specs Ogre: nets a kill if played right, but is a liability depending on the speed control you're more or less obligated to provide it. It's not bad at all, though. I would just contend that Caly-Ice's best role is in non-TR settings and ladder statistics fail to reflect on that positively.

Also, Azelf gets Magic Coat! So it actually has a possible, albeit strange niche against Slurpuff/Shuckle:

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Magic Coat
- Explosion / Knock Off / Thunder Wave / Trick / Fire Blast / Remember to do your March Madness brackets

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rapid Spin vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Azelf: 62-73 (21.3 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Azelf: 184-217 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and maybe Excadrill if you're lucky as the sum of these two calcs never hits 100%.

The Zekrom set is fine under Screens, the real test is whether it can afford the severe drop in attack when a good player removes/stalls out the screens. That's the kicker to me.
 
Trick Room is essentially worse Screens HO unfortunately. The sole fact that Grimmsnarl can get them up with priority at least once makes it considerably better. The analytics you mentioned are a little misleading because it's of those that use it conditionally. Calyrex-Ice is an underrated mon that's battered by hazards and competes with Zacian/Zekrom as a breaker, and has to decide on Boots/Sash/Band depending on the team. A lot of its problems are also seen in Specs Ogre: nets a kill if played right, but is a liability depending on the speed control you're more or less obligated to provide it. It's not bad at all, though. I would just contend that Caly-Ice's best role is in non-TR settings and ladder statistics fail to reflect on that positively.
So, I am seeing this being thrown around a lot. What does Caly Ice usually run if not TR? I don't seen how anything other set can match it's utility. I am genuinely curious. I have seen that Sub Seed set but I have never seen it do anything notable or atleast outshine. One thing I also want to clarify is that I was talking about Calyrex as a one off TR setter and self abuser in a screens team, not a full TR team. From your reply it seems that you thing I was talking about a full TR team. I can see what might have caused that confusion but I was talking about TR just as a move on Caly not the entire playstyle in the first sentence. And I was talking about your offence team's matchup against potential TR being improved by Calyrex not the other way round. Another thing that stands out to me is is sash really being utilized on a mon as bulky as this? What is the role of that one in particular?
I have honestly had the most success with that TR set I mentioned in that original post. Becoming faster than everything late game when they are weakened seems the most synergistic use of Calyrex's talents to me. Again I would stress that I mean this as a independent mon on screens not a full TR. I also didn't understand what you meant by the analytics are only for those that use it conditionally. I am pretty sure around 70% of Calyrex do use TR in their moveset. I guess you thought that I meant that 70% of Calyrex are used on full TR due to the communication error before?

The Zekrom set is fine under Screens, the real test is whether it can afford the severe drop in attack when a good player removes/stalls out the screens. That's the kicker to me.
In my experience, it has been. The attack drop barely is noticeable because the flying types, Zacian after rocks, Calyrex S still die at +1. The only differences are that at neutral Ho-oh and Lugia are not even roll anymore which were unfavorable without LO even before, Max HP Yveltal is a 87.5% to be OHKOed instead of guarateed. At +1 Bulky Eternatus is 87.5% chance to OHKO after rocks instead of guaranteed. At +1 the standard Xern roll simply does not exist which was 43% with max attack with rocks. Those are the only things that need to be kept in mind. You can even go more attack if you want but one thing I liked about that spread was how well it took Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak even outside of screens.

As, to how it fares outside of screens, it really depends on the matchup. If your opponent has a status moves like wisp, toxic etc. on a mon that walls Zekrom like Shadow Shield defensive Lunala, Tang etc. , or if they have phasing moves on Groudon, Defensive Zyg, Dialga etc. then they are good regardless of screens but if they have to brawl with right then and there under screens, then it's a big problem for them. It can simply get sufficient speed boosts up with roost and get more than enough attack to just kill everything. Trying not to prop the policy is simply out of question because, it is literally going to take nothing from other attacks and can easily get multiple DDs and roosts to sweep. I have not faced a lot of problem with status as people also consider Sub. It has been decent set IMO because EQ NDM, Groudon, Dialga, Zyg, priority and scarfers are a lot of team's defacto methods to take on Zekrom so completely flipping that around makes them simply unable to deal with Zekrom.
 

Fusion Flare

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So, I am seeing this being thrown around a lot. What does Caly Ice usually run if not TR? I don't seen how anything other set can match it's utility. I am genuinely curious. I have seen that Sub Seed set but I have never seen it do anything notable or atleast outshine. One thing I also want to clarify is that I was talking about Calyrex as a one off TR setter and self abuser in a screens team, not a full TR team. From your reply it seems that you thing I was talking about a full TR team. I can see what might have caused that confusion but I was talking about TR just as a move on Caly not the entire playstyle in the first sentence. And I was talking about your offence team's matchup against potential TR being improved by Calyrex not the other way round. Another thing that stands out to me is is sash really being utilized on a mon as bulky as this? What is the role of that one in particular?
I have honestly had the most success with that TR set I mentioned in that original post. Becoming faster than everything late game when they are weakened seems the most synergistic use of Calyrex's talents to me. Again I would stress that I mean this as a independent mon on screens not a full TR. I also didn't understand what you meant by the analytics are only for those that use it conditionally. I am pretty sure around 70% of Calyrex do use TR in their moveset. I guess you thought that I meant that 70% of Calyrex are used on full TR due to the communication error before?



In my experience, it has been. The attack drop barely is noticeable because the flying types, Zacian after rocks, Calyrex S still die at +1. The only differences are that at neutral Ho-oh and Lugia are not even roll anymore which were unfavorable without LO even before, Max HP Yveltal is a 87.5% to be OHKOed instead of guarateed. At +1 Bulky Eternatus is 87.5% chance to OHKO after rocks instead of guaranteed. At +1 the standard Xern roll simply does not exist which was 43% with max attack with rocks. Those are the only things that need to be kept in mind. You can even go more attack if you want but one thing I liked about that spread was how well it took Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak even outside of screens.

As, to how it fares outside of screens, it really depends on the matchup. If your opponent has a status moves like wisp, toxic etc. on a mon that walls Zekrom like Shadow Shield defensive Lunala, Tang etc. , or if they have phasing moves on Groudon, Defensive Zyg, Dialga etc. then they are good regardless of screens but if they have to brawl with right then and there under screens, then it's a big problem for them. It can simply get sufficient speed boosts up with roost and get more than enough attack to just kill everything. Trying not to prop the policy is simply out of question because, it is literally going to take nothing from other attacks and can easily get multiple DDs and roosts to sweep. I have not faced a lot of problem with status as people also consider Sub. It has been decent set IMO because EQ NDM, Groudon, Dialga, Zyg, priority and scarfers are a lot of team's defacto methods to take on Zekrom so completely flipping that around makes them simply unable to deal with Zekrom.
The most dangerous Calyrex-Ice set in my opinion? Definetly Choice Band. The thing rocks ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS amounts of power, due to the fact that the only answers to Glacial Lance are Necrozma Dusk Mane, and Physically defensive Kyogre. Everything else just gets turned into a kebab. It can also fit in utility moves with Aromatherapy, always a good move, and Trick, to potentially cripple something for a teammate. Obviously you need to circumvent its terrible speed with paralysis support, which isnt too hard to fit, and you have to deal with hazards, which isnt too hard of an ordeal either.
 

Manaphy

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Been reading through the thread and it mostly seems to be about the "Big 5" being Zacian H, Calyrex SR, Yveltal, NDM, and Eternatus., the former two in particular and obliviously the mon with quite possibly most controversial mechanic ever and suspect of the hour, Gothitelle. I wanted to steer the conversation away from these huge presences and talk about some niche mons and some huge huge threats in their own right but who simply can't approach the level of the aforementioned mons.

I laddered with a screens team for the suspect test and wanted to highlight some sets that I found to be very great-

1) :Grimmsnarl:
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
It has one great thing for it- Calyrex S. Grimm not only checks but can switch into and proceed to set up screens in the Calyrex's face, a mon that is particularly troublesome for offense. Eternatus almost never running poison moves gives it another mon to switch into to set up free screens. Having priority on screens is amazing to especially considering the prevalence of Webs. This defensive utility is something that no other Screens Setter can replicate. Taunt is another amazing tool. I prefer Spirit Break over T Wave to 2HKO literally the most common mon in Ubers instead of being stone walled by it and also to break Calyrex's Subs. While Screens are inherently inconsistent, Grimm really gives you the best utility you can find in that role.

2) :Zekrom:
Zekrom @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 80 HP / 108 Atk / 40 Def / 28 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
This set is absolutely incredible with Screens. The EV spread allows you to kill Zacian H at +1 after rocks and survive 2 Precipice Blades from defensive Groudon under Screens. It also avoids the 2HKO from scarfed Ice beam from Kyogre and can stall out even Adamant Orb Modest Dialga Draco Meteors. All under screens obviously.
From that you can figure out just how bulky this thing gets. After playing Ubers for a while, I noticed that the tier is not too well equipped to handle Zekrom. Most teams rely on EQ NDM as their Zekrom check and then picking it off with their priority or faster Scarfer to revenge it. This set completely flips that idea on it's head. Under screens EQ does nothing and it can very easily get the 3 DDs necessary to outspeed Scarfed Calyrex or just stay healthy enough after 2 to survive Astral Barrage. Sucker Punch, Extreme Speed and Shadow Sneak also bounce right off. Funnily enough it even switches into and sets up on Zyg, defensive T arrows not even 3HKOing and even avoids the glare that Zyg loves to throw out. Yveltal and Ho oh also run back to their pokeball on seeing Zekrom enter the field, giving it that free DD. Those are just the mons it gets quite safe set up vs but it can grab that policy boost even vs Eternatus, Xern, Goudon, Dialga etc. Those are not the ideal scenarios but in a tight game getting those clutch kills could be game changing.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1301222790-krayvecec3g0kn7cxyloo8goefue79fpw This battle right here showed this scenario in full effect. If you read the chat you can see that our immensely knowledgeable opponent here very selflessly pointed out for the benefit of "bad players" like us that, this was an "unwillable" match up for him, which I don't agree with but after Zekrom set up, he could really only go for Hax. This was only one of the examples of Zekrom sweeping. I have a lot of replays with different scenarios where Zekrom set up. For some reason even when I almost got the required reqs, I was facing still facing 1300s players but I will be glad to share those replays as well if you want.

3):Calyrex-Ice:
Calyrex-Ice @ Weakness Policy
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Atk / 80 Def / 52 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower
- Swords Dance

This is another mon that absolutely becomes busted under screens. It is already very fat naturally but under screens it is ridiculous. This EV spread OHKOes the standard Ho-oh at+2. This thing has absolutely disgusting bulk. It is barely 3HKOed by SunSteel strike from defensive NDMs. It chews Specs Astral Barrage, Water Spout. Heck it even shrugs off Yveltal's Super Effective Dark Aura boosted attacks and Shadow Sneak bounces right off.
For the most part, it is overshadowed by it's ghost type counterpart but on this team it helped immensely against 2 problem matchups for offense, Webs and Ditto. There have been so many battles in which it just set up TR near end game killed 3-4 mons. With how prevalent Webs are rn ( Shuckle is top 15 usage in Ubers with Slurpuff also making top 40), having such a great check to them for offensive teams is a godsend.
It follows the same principle of setting up on NDM, most team's go to check for Calyrex Ice. It bad defensive typing really works well for it here because it easily gets it's policy activated. Literally the top 5 mons in Ubers, all can activate it.
I think this iteration is particularly good on Calryex-Ice because the opponent is caught in a catch 22 situation. It they use supereffective moves on it, it can snowball like nothing else with TR and WP and if they don't, then it literally takes nothing from other attacks and SDs and TRs to do the exact same thing.


:Azelf:
Azelf is really not a mon I would rank as even having a niche in the Ubers meta game. I only used it because it has taunt + Stealth rocks with decent speed. It can force shuckle to only get up one hazard or even non against red card variants and it also completely denies NDM, Groudon and Dialga from getting up rocks. It can also knock off Yveltal and Ho-oh, two very common defoggers. Really though, that is where the good things I can say about it end. It struggled mightily against other leads such as magic coat slurpuff, Exca, etc. Very average mon.
:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: :Yveltal:
NDM and Yveltal are the part of the "big 5" as I mentioned before. NDM is basically the face of Weakness Policy abuse and is just an incredible, incredible mon overall. As Fc pointed out Yveltal is indeed amazing despite it being near mandatory. No need to say much more for these two. We all already know about these two.


In closing I would definitely encourage everyone to give these sets a shot. I know mons are not exactly under the radar but still I feel they should be talked about a bit more.
Good day! I hope a young lad such as yourself is having fun in our Sword and Shield Ubers Tier!

If I may be so bold, I’d like to give some wise words about your post!
For one, regarding your Grimmsnarl set, I dare say it’s unfortunately not optimal! While Spirit Break doesn’t miss and lowers attack, it’s lack of power compared to Play Rough means that Grimmsnarl would require Attack investment in order to 2HKO most Yveltal. Instead, I highly recommend using the set listed in my Screens Sample team. By using Play Rough, you can change Grimm’s nature and give it more bulk on both sides of the aisle! Quite nifty, isn’t it?

Secondly, for Calyrex-Ice, I imagine it would work quite well on ladder where Webs teams are common and people smash super-effective attacks into it easily. However, it does suffer from significant problems. It’s hard to both get +2 and Trick Room up at the same time, meaning a lot of your calcs are simply not relevant. Lunala, for example, will come in on Trick Room, Burn you, roost up and Roar you out. But especially relevant is the lack of synergy with screens in general; If Calyrex happens to die before trick room wears off, you likely have 3 or 4 other mons who are fast, so you’ll probably cripple your own offense. Trick Room’s timer will allow a smart player to switch around and stall your moves out, and it gives you only a limited time frame to sweep. In comparison, let’s take Groudon, who only needs to Rock Polish once and is faster than almost the entire meta bar Scary Caly, and doesn’t have any of the drawbacks of Caly-Ice. This is not even to mention the weakness to hazards, Rocky Helmet, and other factors!

Because of this I would recommend no serious team to use Trick Room Calyrex-SR; it’s a great example of a mon that is popular on ladder but does not translate into high-level success. The rest of your post has some interesting ideas such as Weakness Policy Zekrom! I wish for your continued experimentation to bear fruit in the future!

With this my friend, I bid you adieu!
 
For one, regarding your Grimmsnarl set, I dare say it’s unfortunately not optimal! While Spirit Break doesn’t miss and lowers attack, it’s lack of power compared to Play Rough means that Grimmsnarl would require Attack investment in order to 2HKO most Yveltal. Instead, I highly recommend using the set listed in my Screens Sample team. By using Play Rough, you can change Grimm’s nature and give it more bulk on both sides of the aisle! Quite nifty, isn’t it?
Well, I really appreciate an experienced player such as yourself giving pointers to newer players like myself. I would be sure to check out that set! I originally thought the power difference is not worth the accuracy but on running some calcs, it does make a huge difference!

Secondly, for Calyrex-Ice, I imagine it would work quite well on ladder where Webs teams are common and people smash super-effective attacks into it easily. However, it does suffer from significant problems. It’s hard to both get +2 and Trick Room up at the same time, meaning a lot of your calcs are simply not relevant. Lunala, for example, will come in on Trick Room, Burn you, roost up and Roar you out. But especially relevant is the lack of synergy with screens in general; If Calyrex happens to die before trick room wears off, you likely have 3 or 4 other mons who are fast, so you’ll probably cripple your own offense. Trick Room’s timer will allow a smart player to switch around and stall your moves out, and it gives you only a limited time frame to sweep. In comparison, let’s take Groudon, who only needs to Rock Polish once and is faster than almost the entire meta bar Scary Caly, and doesn’t have any of the drawbacks of Caly-Ice. This is not even to mention the weakness to hazards, Rocky Helmet, and other factors!

Because of this I would recommend no serious team to use Trick Room Calyrex-SR; it’s a great example of a mon that is popular on ladder but does not translate into high-level success
I only play ladder so I really don't have much idea of the tournament meta game, honestly. But lt you are right that it does work well on ladder because of all the offence.

To be completely truthful, I very rarely faced mons such as Lunala, defensive ogre, etc. I mostly faced the standards such as NDM yveltal, Eternatus, choiced kyogre, caly and zacian, groudon, ho-oh, etc. With some common leads mixed in, maybe a ditto, Dialaga, Palkia etc. In the majority of the matches those problem matches were simply not there.

I also didn't have any problem in the TR department because, I had NDM who despite speed investment was slower a lot of times and grimm with priority screens and Yveltal with sucker punch. If push came to shove, under screens both zekrom or NDM could try to roost or moonlight stall TR out too.

I completely agree that groudon is more likely to sweep and has lesser flaws! But, I added Caly to help with problems such as webs and ditto, which were a lot more relevant on ladder. Adding another stand alone sweeper that has the same weaknesses as the other sweepers just didn't make sense to me especially since I already had 2 of those when I could add something that is actually good against those weaknesses. Caly Ice fit the team better at least IMO but no arguments there that Groudon is a better overall mon.

There were a few things I nitpick over such as getting +2 and TR are difficult to get at same time which I absolutely did not have any problem with as I had SD as well and people playing around TR turns which also didn't happen as Glacial Lance dropped everything late game or you just needed to make that one prediction with High horsepower I imagine that must just be a case with only ladder and not tournaments!


Lastly, I really respect your opinion as such an esteemed player and there is definitely a lot of merit in what you. It probably has no place in a high level tourney setting but it is also hard to ignore just how well it work on even higher ladder at least from my experience.

The rest of your post has some interesting ideas such as Weakness Policy Zekrom! I wish for your continued experimentation to bear fruit in the future!
Well, I am really glad that found my ideas interesting!! I am extremely happy with that Zekrom set and it has been working very well. Tbh, I am pretty happy with Caly Ice set as well but most of the lads don't agree as much. Thanks for your best wishes! I also hope that in future one of sets gets as much notoriety as say vincune or triple KO chansey but I guess I have a long way to go before that.

Good day! I hope a young lad such as yourself is having fun in our Sword and Shield Ubers Tier!
Overall, I really do enjoy the tier. But I personally believe that Ubers in particular is only enjoyed in limited doses. I play the tier for a few hours 3-4 days after every 1-2 months. It is the tier that has the highest risk of becoming stale just because the power level of those mons is so high you have only a limited pool to select from. Say, the difference in power level of OU and Ubers is even more than OU and RU. This as an inherent struggle of the Ubers tier in general and not jib at the council in any shape or form. In fact, I think they are doing a fantastic job, being on the top of their game holding suspects and sending out surveys. This gen has been particularly tough with a huge chunk of pokedex removed, Arceus in particular, Zmoves, megas and primals gone, absolutely unprecedented levels of broken mechanics added into the game. Despite that, the meta game has been quite interesting to me, first to check out the said broken mechanics and then the meta game after that. I feel the Ubers tier is becoming more and more open with each suspect. Quite a fun experience to play Ubers, I must say!
 

Manaphy

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is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Well, I really appreciate an experienced player such as yourself giving pointers to newer players like myself. I would be sure to check out that set! I originally thought the power difference is not worth the accuracy but on running some calcs, it does make a huge difference!


I only play ladder so I really don't have much idea of the tournament meta game, honestly. But lt you are right that it does work well on ladder because of all the offence.

To be completely truthful, I very rarely faced mons such as Lunala, defensive ogre, etc. I mostly faced the standards such as NDM yveltal, Eternatus, choiced kyogre, caly and zacian, groudon, ho-oh, etc. With some common leads mixed in, maybe a ditto, Dialaga, Palkia etc. In the majority of the matches those problem matches were simply not there.

I also didn't have any problem in the TR department because, I had NDM who despite speed investment was slower a lot of times and grimm with priority screens and Yveltal with sucker punch. If push came to shove, under screens both zekrom or NDM could try to roost or moonlight stall TR out too.

I completely agree that groudon is more likely to sweep and has lesser flaws! But, I added Caly to help with problems such as webs and ditto, which were a lot more relevant on ladder. Adding another stand alone sweeper that has the same weaknesses as the other sweepers just didn't make sense to me especially since I already had 2 of those when I could add something that is actually good against those weaknesses. Caly Ice fit the team better at least IMO but no arguments there that Groudon is a better overall mon.

There were a few things I nitpick over such as getting +2 and TR are difficult to get at same time which I absolutely did not have any problem with as I had SD as well and people playing around TR turns which also didn't happen as Glacial Lance dropped everything late game or you just needed to make that one prediction with High horsepower I imagine that must just be a case with only ladder and not tournaments!


Lastly, I really respect your opinion as such an esteemed player and there is definitely a lot of merit in what you. It probably has no place in a high level tourney setting but it is also hard to ignore just how well it work on even higher ladder at least from my experience.



Well, I am really glad that found my ideas interesting!! I am extremely happy with that Zekrom set and it has been working very well. Tbh, I am pretty happy with Caly Ice set as well but most of the lads don't agree as much. Thanks for your best wishes! I also hope that in future one of sets gets as much notoriety as say vincune or triple KO chansey but I guess I have a long way to go before that.



Overall, I really do enjoy the tier. But I personally believe that Ubers in particular is only enjoyed in limited doses. I play the tier for a few hours 3-4 days after every 1-2 months. It is the tier that has the highest risk of becoming stale just because the power level of those mons is so high you have only a limited pool to select from. Say, the difference in power level of OU and Ubers is even more than OU and RU. This as an inherent struggle of the Ubers tier in general and not jib at the council in any shape or form. In fact, I think they are doing a fantastic job, being on the top of their game holding suspects and sending out surveys. This gen has been particularly tough with a huge chunk of pokedex removed, Arceus in particular, Zmoves, megas and primals gone, absolutely unprecedented levels of broken mechanics added into the game. Despite that, the meta game has been quite interesting to me, first to check out the said broken mechanics and then the meta game after that. I feel the Ubers tier is becoming more and more open with each suspect. Quite a fun experience to play Ubers, I must say!
Well stated! Unfortunately I don't think the tier will improve too much until we can get some good bans in order, I think the variety will go up drastically if they go through.
As a side note, I'm personally not a huge fan of Yveltal on screens because it can't set-up and Grimmsnarl already covers Calyrex-SR pretty well, so I think screens is legitimately the one team where you would actually not want to run Yveltal.
 
As a side note, I'm personally not a huge fan of Yveltal on screens because it can't set-up and Grimmsnarl already covers Calyrex-SR pretty well, so I think screens is legitimately the one team where you would actually not want to run Yveltal.
I just ran it just because scarfed Caly S was absolutely bonkers and Grimm kinda always got weakened enough coming in on hazards and taking an Astral Barrage. What I really wanted to run was a Zygy who I theorized, would still hold off Scarfed Caly S in the event that Grimm could get up a suicide screen better than NDM and Caly Ice but I couldn't settle on a good set. Any suggestions for good Zygy screens sets lads? I only know it's balance sets.
 

Manaphy

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So, Shadow Tag has finally been banned. I would lie if I was to say I'm not ecstatic right now. Banning Shadow Tag has been a goal of mine ever since Sword and Shield started, going all the way back to me talking to absdaddy and dream via PM about it in early 2020. At the time, it seemed like a longshot. The fact that we were able to get it done with the looming specter of voting on Shadow Tag for the 4th time, and finally doing it makes it even more impactful. In comparison to back then, I am not sure how much of it was due to Mega-Gengar being off the table, or the Ubers mindset changing over time, or people being convinced in the thread, but either way I think it is a great development for the tier. While for the vast majority of players it will make no difference in terms of their teambuilding, in top level tournament play it makes the game way more enjoyable and less prone to shitty matchups. Going forward, no matter what happens with the tier, I will be satisfied that this terrible mechanic has finally done away with in Ubers, and we can get back to being a better recognized tier.

With that being said, we clearly have two more things to look at here - Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H. There are very polarizing opinions on these pokemon, as while they do have some reliable methods of dealing with them, the teambuilding pressure they put on the tier is quite immense. Calyrex-SR forces one pokemon with pretty much one set on nearly every team (Sdef Yveltal), and Zacian-H forces two checks on nearly every team, although those checks can be quite a bit looser (usually defensive Necrozma and another check like Tangrowth, Ho-Oh, or Lunala). Both of these mons would have arguments going the other way, arguing that they are in fact not broken and are manageable; I would expect the ban argument to say that tier variety would greatly increase as a result of these bans.

Personally, I am not decided on either, although I would lead to the ban side currently for the sake of having a more interesting tier. Ever since the Arceus vote, and after what MM2 said about tiering philosophy, I have become less rigid on these sorts of issues, and I think Ubers players should strive for the tier they think would be the most competitive, and at the same time, interesting to play, subjective as that might be. In either case, it will be sure to cause quite the controversy! I enjoy SS Ubers in its current iteration enough that I am happy at a minimum that Gothitelle is gone.
 

JT Yao

Banned deucer.
So, Shadow Tag has finally been banned. I would lie if I was to say I'm not ecstatic right now. Banning Shadow Tag has been a goal of mine ever since Sword and Shield started, going all the way back to me talking to absdaddy and dream via PM about it in early 2020. At the time, it seemed like a longshot. The fact that we were able to get it done with the looming specter of voting on Shadow Tag for the 4th time, and finally doing it makes it even more impactful. In comparison to back then, I am not sure how much of it was due to Mega-Gengar being off the table, or the Ubers mindset changing over time, or people being convinced in the thread, but either way I think it is a great development for the tier. While for the vast majority of players it will make no difference in terms of their teambuilding, in top level tournament play it makes the game way more enjoyable and less prone to shitty matchups. Going forward, no matter what happens with the tier, I will be satisfied that this terrible mechanic has finally done away with in Ubers, and we can get back to being a better recognized tier.

With that being said, we clearly have two more things to look at here - Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H. There are very polarizing opinions on these pokemon, as while they do have some reliable methods of dealing with them, the teambuilding pressure they put on the tier is quite immense. Calyrex-SR forces one pokemon with pretty much one set on nearly every team (Sdef Yveltal), and Zacian-H forces two checks on nearly every team, although those checks can be quite a bit looser (usually defensive Necrozma and another check like Tangrowth, Ho-Oh, or Lunala). Both of these mons would have arguments going the other way, arguing that they are in fact not broken and are manageable; I would expect the ban argument to say that tier variety would greatly increase as a result of these bans.

Personally, I am not decided on either, although I would lead to the ban side currently for the sake of having a more interesting tier. Ever since the Arceus vote, and after what MM2 said about tiering philosophy, I have become less rigid on these sorts of issues, and I think Ubers players should strive for the tier they think would be the most competitive, and at the same time, interesting to play, subjective as that might be. In either case, it will be sure to cause quite the controversy! I enjoy SS Ubers in its current iteration enough that I am happy at a minimum that Gothitelle is gone.
I agree with what my lad, Manaphy, has stated, and would like to further expand on some of his well-articulated points.

First and foremost, successfully banning Shadow Tag is just another step to improving this tier. Right now, I'm sure many people find SS Ubers to be an extremely stale metagame to play. Having to run into the same type of core on practically every kind of team leaves very little innovation available in tier. SiTuM brought up previously that he's trying to run innovative sets, but the way I see it, a tier that is as stale as SS Ubers leaves very little room for innovation. And even if a competent builder is able to innovate, they're more than likely sacrificing a non-trivial level of consistency against some major metagame threat. Indeed, if you opt to use something creative or innovative, you run into the chance of losing to something standard. That's the meta summed up in a few sentences. Now, Shadow Tag was only the third link (the first two being Dynamax and Zacian-C) of the chain that needed to be promptly removed for this metagame to truly thrive. Right now, there's a metaphorical chain that wraps around SS Ubers and makes it extraordinarily stale, in comparison to other generations of Ubers. And this chain is particularly emphasized by two remaining links that need to go sooner rather than later.

Those two links, as everyone should have surmised by now, are Calyrex-S and Zacian-H. For better or worse, these two offensive threats warp the tier around them. No, they're not nearly as broken as Dynamax or Zacian-C were. But they do limit every kind of basic team composition to the same permutation of mons, and that makes them extremely polarizing. And interestingly enough, you won't find a (non-passive) team that's not weak to both of these threats. Running a Specially Defensive Yveltal does not necessarily make your team safe from Calyrex-S, especially Specs variants of it. And similarly, running a Physically Defensive NDM does not make your team safe from Zacian-H. Banded Zacian-H is so powerful that it can literally 2HKO NDM after Rocks damage via Close Combat or Crunch. All a competent player needs is a single turn of prediction to put themselves in an extremely advantageous position in the late midgame or endgame. And then there's the fact that these two breakers are often coupled with devastating offensive sweepers like Bulk Up Marshadow and Geomancy Xerneas, which ultimately lead to a clean sweep. My dear and esteemed colleague BasedWhat? and I came to this conclusion a long time ago, but trying to successfully cover both these threats in the builder literally saps out any level of versatility you can make with a non-HO structure team. And this is not indicative of a healthy metagame.

In an ideal world, I'd like Calyrex-S to be suspected first. Although many people find Zacian-H to be significantly more problematic, I think Manaphy summarized it best in his post. Having to run a Specially Defensive Yveltal on practically every team is sub-optimal. Having to run at least 3-4 mons to cover both Calyrex-S and Zacian-H is sub-optimal. And more often than not, you'll be weak to other offensive threats like Marshadow, Zygarde, Zekrom, or as Manaphy would say, "Groudon 6-0's." I'm glad Shadow Tag was banned from SS Ubers, but we have a long way to go before this tier can truly prosper and achieve a significant amount of versatility in team composition.

Alright back to studying, see you all later!
 
Last edited:

Cynara

Banned deucer.
While I accept and understand why Shadow Tag has been banned and I'm glad the overall playerbase are happy with the outcome, and personally I am not disappointed or angry with the outcome either. I just felt it wasn't the most overwhelming problematic element in tier and Manaphy made some top quality posts in the suspect thread itself. If the majority feel otherwise about Shadow Tag to me, oh well, its done and dusted. The good I see from the shadow tag suspect and previous suspects is the overwhelmingly positive attitude the playerbase have towards Suspects in the tiering of Ubers be no ban or ban, The participation we receive and the amount of opinions posted in the suspect threads and metagame discussion threads is fantastic for me to see, and the direction for Ubers tiering I always wanted to see, and I'm glad for the direction it's going in.

As Manaphy has previous stated, the things clearly under our radar are Zacian-H and Calyrex-SR. .

Zacian-H and Calyrex-SR obviously put immense pressure on players in the teambuilder, Both these offensive pressures are clearly a cut above the rest in terms of raw offensive power, sweeping potential and speed tier, they're simply much more powerful than the other offensive threats. I'd argue Zacian-H is slightly more problematic and less manageable in the teambuilder as its checks are a bit more shaky than Calyrex-SR's. But on the flipside, a bulky Yveltal is really not the best use of a Yveltal, but it has to be there because of how teams are shaped and how much offensive potency Calyrex-SR actually has. I'm torn on which one I'd suspect, but I'm potentially leaning Calyrex-SR. Zacian-H is a weird Pokemon, its a bit more volatile as in it rewards prediction from the better player, especially in reference to the banded set.

These Pokemon obviously make teambuilding feel "Forced" in a way and leads to stale metagame development and consistently generating teams that are simply the same, or similar with little permutations, most teams just replace the offensive winning condition and use the same defensive core repeatedly because there is little to nothing else to deal with these problematic Pokemon. It is simply a game of at least 4 identical ducks.

When I say forced over restricted to define it, I mean forced. I think restricted metagames are fine, but forced is not, as it is a bad type of a restricted metagame that doesn't offer the malleability and teambuilding freedom say, ORAS and USUM do. Despite Arceus and Primal Groudon being on every single high level team, these Pokemon are much more malleable and can be adjusted, fine tuned and varied to create different branches of a variety of teams where the metagames offer enough space for enough unique teams, SS ubers team restrictions don't seem to give that kind of direction. Necrozma-DM is not going outside of the role of Physically defensive, outside of HO, despite being defined as an S-Rank as an example, All Yveltals need to be bulky to withstand Calyrex-SR, despite this, these sole checks can still be overwhelmed completely by the Pokemon they are designed to check and teams don't have the secondary defensive axons to fall back on, as in they can't afford them in teambuilding. This leaves teams with glaring holes to a lot of offensive Pokemon, with the biggest offender of weaknesses being Zekrom. Teams can't really afford to check the other offensive threats and players will simply accept they lose to the A-Rank Zekrom, as an example.
 

jessep123

Banned deucer.
While I accept and understand why Shadow Tag has been banned and I'm glad the overall playerbase are happy with the outcome, and personally I am not disappointed or angry with the outcome either. I just felt it wasn't the most overwhelming problematic element in tier and Manaphy made some top quality posts in the suspect thread itself. If the majority feel otherwise about Shadow Tag to me, oh well, its done and dusted. The good I see from the shadow tag suspect and previous suspects is the overwhelmingly positive attitude the playerbase have towards Suspects in the tiering of Ubers be no ban or ban, The participation we receive and the amount of opinions posted in the suspect threads and metagame discussion threads is fantastic for me to see, and the direction for Ubers tiering I always wanted to see, and I'm glad for the direction it's going in.

As Manaphy has previous stated, the things clearly under our radar are Zacian-H and Calyrex-SR. .

Zacian-H and Calyrex-SR obviously put immense pressure on players in the teambuilder, Both these offensive pressures are clearly a cut above the rest in terms of raw offensive power, sweeping potential and speed tier, they're simply much more powerful than the other offensive threats. I'd argue Zacian-H is slightly more problematic and less manageable in the teambuilder as its checks are a bit more shaky than Calyrex-SR's. But on the flipside, a bulky Yveltal is really not the best use of a Yveltal, but it has to be there because of how teams are shaped and how much offensive potency Calyrex-SR actually has. I'm torn on which one I'd suspect, but I'm potentially leaning Calyrex-SR. Zacian-H is a weird Pokemon, its a bit more volatile as in it rewards prediction from the better player, especially in reference to the banded set.

These Pokemon obviously make teambuilding feel "Forced" in a way and leads to stale metagame development and consistently generating teams that are simply the same, or similar with little permutations, most teams just replace the offensive winning condition and use the same defensive core repeatedly because there is little to nothing else to deal with these problematic Pokemon. It is simply a game of at least 4 identical ducks.

When I say forced over restricted to define it, I mean forced. I think restricted metagames are fine, but forced is not, as it is a bad type of a restricted metagame that doesn't offer the malleability and teambuilding freedom say, ORAS and USUM do. Despite Arceus and Primal Groudon being on every single high level team, these Pokemon are much more malleable and can be adjusted, fine tuned and varied to create different branches of a variety of teams where the metagames offer enough space for enough unique teams, SS ubers team restrictions don't seem to give that kind of direction. Necrozma-DM is not going outside of the role of Physically defensive, outside of HO, despite being defined as an S-Rank as an example, All Yveltals need to be bulky to withstand Calyrex-SR, despite this, these sole checks can still be overwhelmed completely by the Pokemon they are designed to check and teams don't have the secondary defensive axons to fall back on, as in they can't afford them in teambuilding. This leaves teams with glaring holes to a lot of offensive Pokemon, with the biggest offender of weaknesses being Zekrom. Teams can't really afford to check the other offensive threats and players will simply accept they lose to the A-Rank Zekrom, as an example.
I agree
 
It appears that the vote to ban Shadow Tag was nearly unanimous. While some people might be upset that Wobbuffett/Wynaut got banned in order to get rid of Gothitelle, I think that it was a good trade. At this point there is nothing to do but wait for the meta to settle.

With that being said, I would implore the council to not wait too long before considering another suspect test. As some have already pointed out in this thread, the current SS Ubers metagame is a little bit stale. Due to some of the offensive monsters in the tier, most viable teams are forced to run very similar cores, leaving little in the way of innovation. The two with the biggest stranglehold on the tier and the teambuilder are Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H.

Calyrex-SR:
-Insane speed tier of 150
-Special attack stat of 165, special moxie ability to snowball, and a ghost STAB 120 base power move
-Ability to hit specially defensive walls on their weaker physical side with STAB psyshock
-Can function as a cleric if running the move Aromatherapy
-Learns Substitute and Leech Seed for a situational but incredibly annoying subseed set [vastly inferior to the other sets imo but it was enough of a threat that lots of people were running snarl and/or changing up their Yveltal EV spreads to break through substitute with U-Turn for a while there]

Why it should be banned:
-Essentially forces teams to run a specially defensive Yveltal/dedicated Calyrex-S 'counter' [with appropriate coverage and/or choice specs Calyrex-SR can OHKO or 2HKO wannabe counters like Zarude, Obstagoon, Tyranitar, etc. and can 2HKO offensive Yveltal sets]
-Ability to beat its checks by tricking a choice item then wearing them down with double switches
-Making other special attackers obsolete (Why run something like Mewtwo over Calyrex-SR when Calyrex is faster, stronger, has an ability that increases its special attack with each KO, offers role compression as a cleric, etc.?)
-Speed Creep; Calyrex-S is so fast that many scarfers and setup sweepers are forced to run + speed natures in order to out-speed it [this is shaky reasoning but what I am trying to articulate is that its presence affects almost everything in the tier, with their viability being based around how they compliment/beat Calyrex]


Zacian-H:
-Very fast speed tier of 138
-Intrepid Sword boosts its attack stat to almost 900 with an Adamant nature and a Choice Band
-Excellent coverage in Play Rough, Close Combat, Wild Charge, and Crunch/Assurance to OHKO or 2HKO the entire tier

Why it should be banned:
-Doesn't have any counters only checks; the Choice Band set can OHKO or 2HKO everything in the tier with proper prediction/guessing
-Defensive Necrozma Dusk Mane, Zacian-H's best check, still has an ~2/3s chance of being 2HKO'ed even after leftovers​
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 197-232 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-Life Orb / Swords Dance sets can OHKO everything except for physically defensive Necrozma-DM after a SD so the only way to deal with them is to either run a defensive NDM or attempt to revenge kill it with an even faster Pokemon
-Requires teams to run 2+ Zacian checks in order to beat it reliably

While Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H are less than omnipresent with usage percentages of ~45% and ~35% respectively, they are largely responsible for their main checks (Yveltal and Necrozma-DM) sitting comfortably at the number 1 and 2 spots in usage. Banning one or both of Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H would have massive implications in the teambuilder, freeing up quite a few slots and breaking the tier out of its current rut of re-using the same cores over and over.
 

Fc

Waiting for something to happen?
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Ubers Leader
Gothitelle is gone :psyglad:

Usage stats for round 7 and 8 of ssnl here, for the last what I'm pretty sure is 6 rounds I'll probably do every 3 rounds to get larger numbers each time, with a cumulative stats at the end, barring those few replays I couldn't access. There were some extensions and posts across different threads so I hope I got them all and am caught up with all the accessible replays now, but there's a few more replays in both than games per round because of those extensions.
SSNL R7

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   55 |  91.67% |  50.91% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |   54 |  90.00% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   42 |  70.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Zacian             |   19 |  31.67% |  42.11% |
| 5    | Ho-Oh              |   18 |  30.00% |  44.44% |
| 6    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   16 |  26.67% |  62.50% |
| 6    | Xerneas            |   16 |  26.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Groudon            |   15 |  25.00% |  60.00% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |   15 |  25.00% |  46.67% |
| 10   | Zekrom             |   11 |  18.33% |  81.82% |
| 10   | Tangrowth          |   11 |  18.33% |  54.55% |
| 12   | Kyogre             |   10 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Blissey            |    9 |  15.00% |  55.56% |
| 13   | Marshadow          |    9 |  15.00% |  44.44% |
| 15   | Ferrothorn         |    5 |   8.33% |  80.00% |
| 15   | Shuckle            |    5 |   8.33% |  40.00% |
| 15   | Palkia             |    5 |   8.33% |  20.00% |
| 18   | Lunala             |    4 |   6.67% |  75.00% |
| 19   | Dracovish          |    3 |   5.00% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Grimmsnarl         |    3 |   5.00% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Regieleki          |    3 |   5.00% |  33.33% |
| 19   | Gothitelle         |    3 |   5.00% |  33.33% |
| 19   | Rayquaza           |    3 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Shedinja           |    3 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Excadrill          |    2 |   3.33% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Ditto              |    2 |   3.33% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Aerodactyl         |    2 |   3.33% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Urshifu-*          |    2 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Tyranitar          |    2 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Giratina-Origin    |    1 |   1.67% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Zarude-Dada        |    1 |   1.67% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Cloyster           |    1 |   1.67% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Pheromosa          |    1 |   1.67% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Slurpuff           |    1 |   1.67% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Froslass           |    1 |   1.67% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Dialga             |    1 |   1.67% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Solgaleo           |    1 |   1.67% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Mewtwo             |    1 |   1.67% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Toxapex            |    1 |   1.67% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Dugtrio            |    1 |   1.67% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    1 |   1.67% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Suicune            |    1 |   1.67% |   0.00% |
SSNL R8

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   68 |  94.44% |  48.53% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |   67 |  93.06% |  53.73% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   48 |  66.67% |  54.17% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   31 |  43.06% |  54.84% |
| 5    | Kyogre             |   26 |  36.11% |  42.31% |
| 6    | Zacian             |   23 |  31.94% |  52.17% |
| 7    | Xerneas            |   18 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 8    | Ho-Oh              |   15 |  20.83% |  66.67% |
| 9    | Zygarde            |   14 |  19.44% |  35.71% |
| 10   | Blissey            |   11 |  15.28% |  45.45% |
| 11   | Tangrowth          |   10 |  13.89% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Groudon            |   10 |  13.89% |  30.00% |
| 13   | Slurpuff           |    8 |  11.11% |  75.00% |
| 13   | Gothitelle         |    8 |  11.11% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Zekrom             |    7 |   9.72% |  28.57% |
| 16   | Lunala             |    6 |   8.33% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Marshadow          |    6 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Shuckle            |    5 |   6.94% |  80.00% |
| 19   | Palkia             |    4 |   5.56% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Grimmsnarl         |    4 |   5.56% |  25.00% |
| 19   | Calyrex-Ice        |    4 |   5.56% |  25.00% |
| 22   | Rayquaza           |    3 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Ditto              |    3 |   4.17% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Dracovish          |    3 |   4.17% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Ferrothorn         |    3 |   4.17% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Urshifu-*          |    3 |   4.17% |  33.33% |
| 27   | Regieleki          |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Mewtwo             |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Aerodactyl         |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Shedinja           |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Amoonguss          |    2 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Mew                |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Barraskewda        |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Dugtrio            |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Pheromosa          |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Clefable           |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Toxapex            |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Hydreigon          |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Zarude-Dada        |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Excadrill          |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Porygon2           |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Magearna           |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Hatterene          |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Froslass           |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |

:necrozma-dusk-mane: :yveltal: :eternatus:
Obligatory discussion about these, dusk mane has actually seen higher usage than Yveltal for these past rounds if only by 1, something I didn't think would happen multiple times since Yvel being #1 felt so natural. Close regardless between those two, with third up etern actually seeing some of its highest usage by percentage with 70 and 66.6, with that being higher than all ssnl rounds and 66.6 is tied with the post Zacian-c ltpl stats. Offensive sets may be more explored since those are super good combined with its defensive sets being as reliable as always, so bit of a rise which isn't too strange for such a good mon.

:zacian: :calyrex-shadow:
Other obligatory discussion here, but throwing in :kyogre: and :ho-oh: as mentions as they threw off the standard top 5 we'd expect. Round 7 Zacian was fourth with Ho-oh sitting in between it and Calyrex-S, while in round 8 Calyrex-S was fourth with Kyogre sitting between it and Zacian. Ho-oh is a super valuable pick rn, being a pivot into a ton of things and helping the Calyrex-S mu a ton and the Zacian mu a tiny bit since it fears Wild Charge so hard. Kyogre is doing Kyogre things, hitting hard and setting up while being something that requires a check on every team, largely contributing to that 70% Eternatus usage.

:lunala: :tangrowth:
Both physically defensive ground answers got good winrates in both rounds, showing how valuable they can be. Covering for offensive grounds is insanely important rn with how top heavy the meta is, so these keeping the winrate high shows that well.

:slurpuff: :shuckle:
Slurpuff only dropped 2 games out of 9 in the two rounds, while Shuckle had a slightly less impressive but still positive 6/10 wins over the two rounds. Webs is proving that it's a really solid playstyle and seems to be pushing away as the dominant HO usage wise. Grimmsnarl had an iffy r8, but screens are still also a solid pick, and a lot of supporting HO mons like :zekrom: with its 81% r7 winrate and :Groudon: with its 60% r7 winrate show that, despite their lacking r8 stats.

Picking things to focus on is a lot harder when they have 3 games used and inconsistent winrates, so yeah I think I'll at least do every 3 rounds from now on. Quickly chiming in on the discussion above, I personally have expressed a lot how I don't think Calyrex-S is banworthy at all, while it's restrictive in play I think it's manageable, and comparing how much effort it takes to consistently beat the threat I think Zacian is much harder. Yveltal at least switches into Calyrex-S alright, while NDM just drops to 2 hits from Zacian, leaving teams to need Tangrowth + NDM or they risk a 50/50 whenever Zacian comes in that while it won't end the game, puts a larger dent in teams than Calyrex-S does imo. I don't mind a little restriction as long as the threat is beatable, however, so as of now I'm against banning both, I do see the arguments for removing them just don't have the same viewpoints on the tier about those arguments. Regardless though I'm interested to see how the rest of Seasonal plays out, there's some good matches that are sure to come and the usage stats will always be interesting, and the cumulative at the end will tell the full story pretty much as long as Gothitelle is ignored.

Speaking of Gothitelle, dropping some thoughts on winners of the ban, since losers aside from Gothitelle and Wobb don't really exist, all the abusers of Stag are great in their own right and while Zacian may be a small fraction worse than before on paper, nothing major since in game Stag warped things so much.

:toxapex:
This thing is so much more free now. It was really pressured into running Shed Shell or having literally 0 options to beat Stag, and when regen is so crucial in the tier currently combined with its Knock Off, Scald, and Tspikes spam it'll be a lot better of a pick.

:amoonguss:
Similar to Toxapex, good regen pivot that hard lost to Stag. Spore is such a good move while Amoongus has other good utility options like Foul Play, Stun Spore, Toxic, etc. so I think it'll be a bit better, but I think Toxapex improves quite a bit more.

:necrozma-dusk-mane:
No more unviable Shed Shell or random Swords Dance Knock Off defensive sets, it's a bit more free if you actually cared to build around avoiding trapping, and in game it's even more free since it was so badly hindered in practice by Stag. Shouldn't rise the ranks since it's already at the top but will still likely be a tiny bit better in games since it lost something to beat it.

:almost every other defensive mon that couldn't pivot:
A ton of things got slightly better overall, not having to worry about this issue is really good for most things. Interested to see how things change with this ban since I think a few defensive mons may pop up out of the depths of 0 usage like Toxapex.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Fc, you do god's work for these seasonal statistics, please keep these up, they're always a lovely read :). Why is the top 6 usage almost a honest team lmao

By the way, do you keep accumulated usage statistics for the whole seasonal? Aside from that, its nice to see how things shift from round to round.

Glad to see the usage stats somewhat prove my points about Zekrom evidenced by its high win rate, players seem to be finding it hard to account for it in the teambuilder due to the overwhelming importance of Calyrex-SR and Zacian. Not surprised about the Yveltal and Necrozma usage, but what are the teams lacking them? Im guessing the cheesier picks like webs can't really fit them both all the time, Etern is also a bit more replaceable, but I find Yveltal and Necrozma-DM honestly irreplaceable in 90% of teams I build atm.
 

BasedWhat?

Party rockers
Hi no more that beat around the bush. Shadow Tag's ban doesn't change how Calyrex-S is handled, and Caly-S was/still obviously will be the normal player's biggest issue with the tier. Another survey, while nice and formal, is just stalling on the what the next suspect is. Broken or not, test it.

Wow I sure wonder what the next two weeks of SSNL with feature as its highest usage mon (whoops NDM was higher last part you know what I mean)
 

Yubellia

Banned deucer.
I am glad that Shadow Tag is finally gone. While ladder players such as I may not as see as big as an issue due to it not being spammed as much. However, anyone who remotely payed closely to the tournament scene can notice how much of a detrimental affect it had on the tier and its suffice to say that it was more than warranted to be banned from that alone.

Nonetheless, while I appreciate the council taking their time in addressing tiering issues and closely monitoring both community feedback and taking the time to evaluate the metagame's state within themselves, I believe that the tier still has a little bit more work to go through before we can reach a balanced state. Cynara really hit on all the good points here but I would just like to voice my support for a suspect on both Zacian-H and Calyrex-S.


It obviously can't compare to the monstrosity that was its crowned form, however Zacian-H has really stood out and taken the mantle as the best physical wallbreaker in the tier in its place and its not hard to see why. While it does miss out on the great typing, excellent speed tier, and greater defensive stats that Zacian-C had, Zacian-H offers the unique advantage of an item choice that can make it almost as effective tbh. Choice Band sets have been the most popular as of late, gaining a +2 Atk boost when considering its ability in tandem with a great speed tier that lets it get the jump on nearly all non-scarfed threats besides Calyrex-S and a colorful movepool that enables it to break through would-be checks like Ho-Oh and Necrozma-DM with appropriate predictions. Being locked into a move does hamper Zacian-H somewhat in comparison to its crowned form, however teams do need to acquire at least 2 defensive checks to skate around Zacian's coverage options in risk of Necrozma-DM coming in on a potential crit or Defense drop from Crunch which can completely change the tides of the game. Tangrowth and Ho-Oh are great partners to Necrozma because of this and are gaining more popularity, however this just exasperates the innate problem of SS ubers, that being teambuilding constrictions. YEN cores (ie: Yveltal + Eternatus + Necrozma-DM) are already almost completely mandatory on balance and bulky offensive teams, and requiring an additional defensive teamslot to fully check Zacian-H can become suffocating when considering potential teammates such as Sub DD Zekrom and Bulk Up Marshadow which can take advantage of these trends and potentially win on matchup versus a lot of teams being spammed rn in hopes of dealing with the top tier threats. This really puts the tier in an uncomfortable spot right now and mind you this is only regarding one set of Zacian's. Swords Dance and Choice Scarf sets are also extremely viable and can be just as effective with minimal team support and ensure a guaranteed sweep with one proper prediction or chip on the minimal amount of checks Zacian has. All in all, Zacian-H has become oppressive to the tier like it's Crowned form has previously, to a lesser-extent admittedly, but still to an unhealthy degree imo.


I do not want to touch on this mon too much as I have already been vocal about it in the past in regards to this post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...er-dynamax-banned.3672664/page-3#post-8667026. However, my opinion still stands that Calyrex-S is also too constraining on the tier rn and offers too much as a fast and powerful wallbreaker that mandates an otherwise sub-optional set on a potentially great mon (ie: SpD Yveltal).While Calyrex-S does have more adequate checks, they can all be crippled by a simple Specs or Scarf Trick and be quite ineffective in checking it throughout the remainder of the match. The flexibility within Calyrex-S's sets is also quite absurd, ranging from Specs, Scarf, SubNP, Sub-Disable and other utility options that can make a lot of progress throughout a match. Its splashable, yet too effective in the tier rn to make it anything but healthy.

Now the order of suspecting is a bit more of a nuance in my head, but I think as it stands now, I am leaning towards looking into Zacian-H first before Calyrex-S and then see how the metagame can stabalize when the YEN core is hopefully not as forced as it is now.

Thank you and special s/o to both Icemaster and TonyFlygon and the rest of the council for being more open to ubers tiering policy in comparison to previous generations. I can't wait to explore this amazing tier with these two out of the way :blobthumbsup:
 
Now that STag is banned, we should find a date to start suspect testing Calyrex-S asap.

Why so soon? The reason is that STag getting banned has virtually no effect on the meta, especially on the ladder. Necrozma-DM might start running more offensive sets, but will never do so since Zacian-H and Xerneas exists. Eternatus seldom ran Dragon Tail even with STag around. So the meta won't settle down because it's already settled down.

Calyrex-S was requested to be suspect tested even before Zacian-C, it is high time the council wastes no time suspecting testing it.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Rushing to a suspect test ASAP is a bad policy idea. I understand you feel strongly about Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H as well as some people do too. I understand your frustrations surrounding the metagame . If You want Calyrex-SR or whoever to go, doing it ASAP isn't the way to go. Gothitelle definately /did/ have some impact on the meta, and usually the majority of the playerbase, will need some time to articulate their thoughts on the current state of the meta, cause it definitely has changed. I guess not as impactful as it may seem and I assume this impact is more evident in tournaments more-so on the ladder. Time for users to generate informed opinions is important and seeing what the majority feel the tiering direction of Ubers and the state of the metagame. I'm sure there will be a Calyrex-SR / Zacian Suspect but give it time, rushing hasty decisions usually leads to undesirable end results.
 
Confirming the above. Our metagame only requires a handful of tiering decisions per generation, so more than anything we intend to get them right. Icemaster and I are very happy with where we've been taking the tier since taking over and we'll check in with everyone again via another survey in a few weeks. One step at a time, everyone.

Speaking of Icemaster, he's focusing on some important exams right now, so if you need to get in contact with Ubers leadership please message me or one of the other council members instead. Thank you all for the active participation!
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Since this is also meta/sets discussion, just wanted to talk about some sets I've actually really taken to like in the current meta.



Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Reflect
- Light Screen / Focus Blast

Yep. Screens GeoXern. This set has the ORAS mentality of Moonblast as the single attack on GeoXern. I will note I feel this set is almost a Hyper Offense exclusive right now. GeoXern only really clicks Moonblast in this meta unless there is a Ho-Oh / Ferrothorn.

The quirk of Screens is its able to help out teammates by setting screens up for the next teammates that are sent out making it much easier for them to setup and sweep, due to the defensive support screens provide, its really trivial how screens work. I usually almost always click Reflect if I do screen as the common Xerneas ins are DD Dusk Mane or whatever and you can use this to your advantage to have safer setup / switch ins to threats that would otherwise be fragile for common hyper offense strucutres.

Another advantage is that you don't need to dedicate a screens user, like Screens HO teams such as the sample so its another form of role compression for all the goodies that benefit HO, but isn't as effective as Grimsnarl for sole screens, obviously. My Xerneas is very fast cause I got sick of Knock Yveltal, and someone tried to convince me Scarf Calyrex sometimes runs Modest so those Calyrex get bopped by this set. You can obviously tweak the Xerneas evs how you want. Mine are mostly designed for a specific HO build I am using. Focus Blast is an option to consider over Light Screen as you rarely Light Screen as it 2hko's Dusk Mane etc.


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 172 Def / 248 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder / Focus Blast / Psyshock
- Misty Terrain

This is a relic from XY Ubers, not even ORAS. Very useful on Offense once again, This is yet again another team support move. It's very good against people who run status spam to deal with threats such as T-wave / Glare. In XY this tech really threw people off because they weren't even aware of the effects of Misty Terrain, and some players weren't even aware it existed before the release of Tapu Fini, which obviously makes people aware of how the Terrains work. Normally you'd just run Aromatherapy or whatever, however the 5 turns of being immune to Status moves is honestly huge for fast paced teams such as HO. It also reduces Dragon-type attacks against grounded moves so I usually consider this on teams that would get washed by Offensive Eternatus or Zekrom, allowing them to live Dynamax Cannon or whatever, very nice partners are DD Zygarde / Groudon etc. Coverage slot depends on team.


Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 12 SpA / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute
- Surf


Not really my creation, but I really think it should be showcased. This set is a really good breaker vs most generic balances once it gets going, the real quirk is Sub + T-wave to fish for paras. It catches checks such as eternatus with T-Wave and can eventually win in the later game once its checks have been para'd. With enough cm boosts and paras this set can beat Spdef Eternatus in the 1v1, Mons like Blissey require a bit more conditioning or fishing. At +6 1 para is enough to end the game. This is my EV spread for the set but someone probably has a more optimised ev spread to share. Speed EVs creep 0 speed Zygarde.

Here is an example replay of a seasonal game which basically won Fc the game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-549335


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Metal Coat
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 28 Atk / 200 Def / 32 Spe
Impish Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Thunder Wave / Earthquake
- Moonlight
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance


Just a standard Phy-def Necro-DM really. The only twist is the item choice which is really nice as it guarantees GeoXern is sufficiently OHKO'd after Stealth Rock with 28 atk evs, which can be otherwise problematic for teams running NDM as the only steel type or lacking a Ho-Oh. With SD it also becomes a surprisingly good breaker lol a bit like Spdef SD Necro in USM and SD Phys-def Necro-DM might be a bit of a showcase itself since it tends to go overlooked and players assign it to the rocks role.

It also annoys any fat Yveltal trying to defog, especially with T-wave, Metal Coat enables it to threaten a small chance to 2HKO 252 Hp Yveltal, which eventually forces it out, so it works wonders especially when paired with Calyrex-SR as Yveltal simply becomes too weakened to deal with Calyrex-SR. You could drop speed if you want, if outspeeding max speed Eternatus after Para isn't required and can be invested into attack for more favourable rolls against Yveltal.

Other suggestions are using like Stone Edge to lure Ho-Oh.

If anyone wants to provide any more creative sets, please do so, looking forward to discussion aswell.
 

JT Yao

Banned deucer.
Haven't had much luck on ladder recently, so I switched to USM building to see if I could potentially get inspired. And to some degree, I can say I have. So Cynara mentioned an interesting idea, running Swords Dance on Defensive NDM. I do like that idea; I think that with Band Zacian-H having a 98% to 2HKO Physically Defensive Helmet NDM, you're inevitably going to be worn down enough that it's probably better to run more than one check to Zacian-H on a given team. Of course, this bestows some degree of flexibility with the choice of item NDM opts to run. I've recently been toying around with Metal Coat and Hard Stone (if I'm running Stone Edge), and both items are quite nice. But the item that I want to discuss today fits on Offense builds the best, which is what I think is honestly the most efficient play style right now.



Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 136 HP / 248 Def / 124 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Stone Edge
- Morning Sun

This NDM set acts as an excellent way of checking Zacian-H, on offense teams only, while still being able to defeat many common defoggers in the tier. The given speed investment allows NDM to creep 16 Speed Ho-Oh and always OHKO with Stone Edge, thanks to Life Orb. Life Orb also enables to OHKO Zacian-H and standard Geomancy Xerneas with Sunsteel Strike, after a round of hazard damage. The HP investment minimizes Life Orb recoil, while Defense is max'd out to take physical hits better. This NDM can even forgo Earthquake, as it has a 37.5% chance to OHKO Specially Defensive Eternatus with +2 Sunsteel Strike. This NDM can even defeat opposing Physically Defensive NDM 1v1 after boosting enough with Swords Dance, so that Sunsteel Strike is always a 2HKO. Best of all, Morning Sun keeps NDM healthy throughout the match, keeping it as both a check to Zacian and an offensive threat to many different team compositions and structures.



Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Rock Tomb / Ice Punch

By no means a new set, but something that I think should be utilized more often. Choice Band Marshadow hits extremely hard, 2HKOing its common checks like Defensive Xerneas and Defensive Zygarde with a round of hazard damage. An excellent breaker in its own right, I think this set can be paired with other threatening offense mons like Geomancy Xerneas, Band or SD Zacian, or even Calyrex-S, forming an especially potent dual Ghost core.

Marshadow @ Spell Tag
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak

A slightly different take than the set above, but I think Spell Tag is a really nice item to use in conjunction with Bulk Up. Spell Tag boosts Poltergeist's base power enough so that Marshadow can blow past most defensive threats at +1. Spell Tag also helps Marshadow preserve its health, which is nice since Marshadow is bulky enough to at least take one hit, and Bulk Up only helps further augment this. I'm of the opinion that an all-out attacker set should utilize Life Orb, where as Bulk Up sets should utilize Spell Tag.



Zacian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat / Crunch

Heavy-Duty Boots is an alternative item to Babiri Berry on SD Zacian-H sets. HDB is an excellent item as it allows Zacian to quickly threaten and possibly even defeat Sticky Webs teams on its own. This Zacian-H set fits best on Offense teams, but in particular, Sticky Webs teams that utilize this set will consistently be able to defeat Sticky Webs mirror matches. Alternatively, this Zacian-H set can also be used on Screens Hyper Offense, which often auto-lose the opposing Webs match up. An Adamant nature is preferred to guarantee the 2HKO on Defensive NDM. The choice between Crunch and Close Combat comes down to the composition of the team. In general, Close Combat is better, unless this Zacian set is used on Screens Offense. In that case, the defense drops from Close Combat would be redundant with the effect of screens.



Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 168 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Ingrain

And last but certainly not least, Ingrain is quite possibly the most dangerous fourth move Geomancy Xerneas can run at the moment. Often times, teams will fall back on phazers like Ho-Oh to deal with Xerneas. Unfortunately, this set completely invalidates that idea, as Xerneas can proceed stay in with Ingrain and then KO Ho-Oh with a combination of Moonblast and Thunder. This set, when combined with Choice Band Zacian-H, can defeat many of the Balance teams commonly employed in SS Ubers. Note that SD sets with Crunch don't pair well with this variant of Xerneas, as SD Zacian with crunch unfortunately Xerneas and Zacian weak to Ferrothorn.

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 168 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Ingrain

Zacian @ Choice Band
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge
- Crunch

OR

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 168 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Ingrain

Zacian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat

I'm honestly at a blank for innovation. I think it seems extremely difficult to do so consistently without removing at least one of, if not both, Calyrex-S and Zacian-H. I'd hope to see another Suspect Test happen before the start of UPL and ULT (which is in just over a month), so that would give enough time for players to get accustomed to a hopefully to a more diverse meta. Hopefully, a new community survey will be released sooner than later.
 
Last edited:

Fc

Waiting for something to happen?
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Ubers Leader
Usage stats for rounds 9, 10, 11, and all 3 combined for seasonal. Next post will be after the tour concludes with both the last 3 rounds and the whole tour's cumulative stats, both of which will be interesting to see. Some new picks have started to pop up quite a bit more later in the rounds, things are being discovered more and the meta is progressing a bit so I wanted to highlight just a few things along with the standard ones I mention.

SSNL R9

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   21 |  87.50% |  52.38% |
| 1    | Yveltal            |   21 |  87.50% |  52.38% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   18 |  75.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Zacian             |   10 |  41.67% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Calyrex-Shadow     |    9 |  37.50% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Xerneas            |    7 |  29.17% |  71.43% |
| 6    | Kyogre             |    7 |  29.17% |  14.29% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 9    | Ho-Oh              |    4 |  16.67% |  75.00% |
| 9    | Urshifu-*          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Groudon            |    4 |  16.67% |  25.00% |
| 9    | Blissey            |    4 |  16.67% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Marshadow          |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Tangrowth          |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Dracovish          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Shedinja           |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Pheromosa          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Aerodactyl         |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Slurpuff           |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Rayquaza           |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Giratina-Origin    |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Palkia             |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Tyranitar          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Excadrill          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Galvantula         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Cloyster           |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Shuckle            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Zarude             |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Landorus-Therian   |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Ferrothorn         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Lunala             |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Zekrom             |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Ditto              |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |

SSNL R10

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   26 | 100.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |   23 |  88.46% |  47.83% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   20 |  76.92% |  55.00% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |    8 |  30.77% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Ho-Oh              |    8 |  30.77% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Zacian             |    6 |  23.08% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Zygarde            |    6 |  23.08% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Kyogre             |    6 |  23.08% |  33.33% |
| 9    | Blissey            |    5 |  19.23% |  60.00% |
| 10   | Tangrowth          |    4 |  15.38% |  75.00% |
| 10   | Xerneas            |    4 |  15.38% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Lunala             |    4 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 10   | Groudon            |    4 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 14   | Ferrothorn         |    3 |  11.54% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Marshadow          |    2 |   7.69% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Ditto              |    2 |   7.69% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Zarude-Dada        |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Calyrex-Ice        |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Clefable           |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Shedinja           |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Toxapex            |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Gastrodon          |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Palkia             |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Pheromosa          |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 15   | Landorus-Therian   |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Zarude             |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Magnezone          |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Giratina-Origin    |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Urshifu-*          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Dracovish          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Zekrom             |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |

SSNL R11

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   17 |  94.44% |  52.94% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |   14 |  77.78% |  42.86% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   10 |  55.56% |  60.00% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |    8 |  44.44% |  62.50% |
| 5    | Zacian             |    7 |  38.89% |  28.57% |
| 6    | Ho-Oh              |    5 |  27.78% |  80.00% |
| 6    | Blissey            |    5 |  27.78% |  60.00% |
| 6    | Zygarde            |    5 |  27.78% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Kyogre             |    5 |  27.78% |  20.00% |
| 10   | Xerneas            |    4 |  22.22% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Tangrowth          |    4 |  22.22% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Groudon            |    4 |  22.22% |  25.00% |
| 10   | Slurpuff           |    4 |  22.22% |  25.00% |
| 14   | Marshadow          |    2 |  11.11% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Gastrodon          |    2 |  11.11% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Tyranitar          |    2 |  11.11% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Amoonguss          |    2 |  11.11% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Ditto              |    1 |   5.56% | 100.00% |
| 18   | Zarude             |    1 |   5.56% | 100.00% |
| 18   | Zarude-Dada        |    1 |   5.56% | 100.00% |
| 18   | Excadrill          |    1 |   5.56% | 100.00% |
| 18   | Ferrothorn         |    1 |   5.56% | 100.00% |
| 18   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    1 |   5.56% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Rayquaza           |    1 |   5.56% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Toxapex            |    1 |   5.56% |   0.00% |

Round 9, 10, 11

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   64 |  94.12% |  51.56% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |   58 |  85.29% |  48.28% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   48 |  70.59% |  54.17% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   25 |  36.76% |  60.00% |
| 5    | Zacian             |   23 |  33.82% |  47.83% |
| 6    | Kyogre             |   18 |  26.47% |  22.22% |
| 7    | Ho-Oh              |   17 |  25.00% |  64.71% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |   16 |  23.53% |  43.75% |
| 9    | Xerneas            |   15 |  22.06% |  60.00% |
| 10   | Blissey            |   14 |  20.59% |  42.86% |
| 11   | Groudon            |   12 |  17.65% |  25.00% |
| 12   | Tangrowth          |   10 |  14.71% |  70.00% |
| 13   | Marshadow          |    6 |   8.82% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Slurpuff           |    6 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Ferrothorn         |    5 |   7.35% |  80.00% |
| 15   | Urshifu-*          |    5 |   7.35% |  40.00% |
| 15   | Lunala             |    5 |   7.35% |  20.00% |
| 18   | Ditto              |    4 |   5.88% |  75.00% |
| 18   | Gastrodon          |    4 |   5.88% |  75.00% |
| 18   | Shedinja           |    4 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Pheromosa          |    4 |   5.88% |  25.00% |
| 22   | Palkia             |    3 |   4.41% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Zarude             |    3 |   4.41% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Tyranitar          |    3 |   4.41% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Zarude-Dada        |    3 |   4.41% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Dracovish          |    3 |   4.41% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Toxapex            |    3 |   4.41% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    3 |   4.41% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Rayquaza           |    3 |   4.41% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Landorus-Therian   |    3 |   4.41% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Excadrill          |    2 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Giratina-Origin    |    2 |   2.94% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Aerodactyl         |    2 |   2.94% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Calyrex-Ice        |    2 |   2.94% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Clefable           |    2 |   2.94% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Zekrom             |    2 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Amoonguss          |    2 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Galvantula         |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Cloyster           |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Shuckle            |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Magnezone          |    1 |   1.47% | 100.00% |

:necrozma-dusk-mane: :yveltal: :eternatus:
Top 3 so have to mention them again, and in these recent weeks dusk mane seems to be pulling a little bit ahead of Yveltal in usage. I think this is mostly due to the fact that alternatives to Yveltal exist which I'll talk about also whereas there's essentially nothing that can fulfill the roles that ndm plays in the meta. I think it's an invaluable pick that almost every team should have and clearly almost every team does have it. Eternatus still holding on to a secure third, with it being so much higher than everything else especially in round 10. Offensive sets are picking up a lot more with Blissey, Gastrodon, and other water resists to cover Kyogre because of how solid Meteor Beam and Life Orb variants are, so with it having multiple amazing sets it makes sense that it's up there.

:zacian: :calyrex-shadow:
Same thing between these 2, traded who was used more for a few rounds and are still the top 2 breakers in the tier. Their checks are way more common than they are which is only natural, so nothing's really changed with them.

:zarude: :tyranitar:
Zarude and Tyranitar in particular got a good bit more usage, combining for 9 over the 3 shorter rounds. I think both are really solid rn, Zarude can sometimes just solo teams with its great move options and stats, with Jungle Healing being a blessing more than anything despite the lower recovery amount just because of how good healing off status is. Tyranitar saw a decent bit of usage on full sand and did well on the teams, personally I think sand is really solid so that isn't too surprising, and I do think it can even go up if people explore the playstyle more.

:marshadow:
Marshadow didn't lose for 3 rounds, showing that it's an incredible pick currently. It's super hard to wall and priority is great, making it one of the most potent offensive pokemon. It fits on a lot of team styles as a pseudo speed control option with Shadow Sneak and is able to beat down common offensive cores made of the top 3 Pokemon which also having coverage options for things like Ho-oh trying to pivot around it.

:zekrom: :groudon:
Compared to how its usage was in the last post, this time around Zekrom flopped for 3 rounds. Only 2 uses and 0 wins overall, probably in part because people have started adapting teams because of how big of a threat it is. I don't think it'll stay down overall and it can definitely still win games, just had a few poor ones stat wise. Groudon had a lot more uses, but similarly poor stats. 25% winrate isn't very good for something that strong, but again I think it's just a small meta thing that won't be consistent. They've started running Overheat more commonly for Tangrowth, but even with that Tangrowth as a check to both of these threats has a much higher winrate still.

:amoonguss: :toxapex:
Despite the bad stats and mediocre usage, they're still starting to rise past their almost non existent status from before which I think makes a lot of sense. Regenerator is so good rn, and they can both fulfill really important roles for teams as pivots and status spreaders. Likely only see them going up from here overall, they're fairly solid picks.

I'm looking forward to the last few rounds of seasonal, there's a lot of interesting games and still so much to explore with this meta given how new it is. I've had a lot of fun playing in seasonal and I think buliding has also been really fun despite what people think about the restriction on the tier, since I've been able to run a lot of diverse things and build teams that work (or don't) with some cool picks making things feel more free than they look on a surface level. I think things are really solid and fairly stable rn, so I'm just interested in seeing how the whole tour and the tier continues to play out.
 
So, I think Zam-Crowned is really underrated. While it would be better if it could hold an item, it can live attacks from Calyrex-Shadow and (Most of the time) live a zacian-h close combat. Here are the calcs.
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 169-201 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Meanwhile, it can OHKO the attackers with various moves.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 460-544 (134.8 - 159.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 320-378 (98.4 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Also, it does pretty well against Yveltal
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Yveltal: 226-266 (49.6 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Knock Off vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 42-51 (12.9 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
0- SpA Dark Aura Yveltal Snarl vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 33-39 (10.1 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
So yeah, Zams pretty good. Here's my favorite set.
:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
 

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