★ np: SS UU Stage 5: Change is Gonna Come (Diggersby & Venusaur BANNED)

[Revelation]

I think the fact that nobody even thought about Choice Specs Charizard, the last time Sun was dominant, just goes to show how centralising Venusaur was at the time.

You didn’t really need anything more than Venusaur paired with Darmanitan, et al.

Preserving either Venusaur’s or Charizard’s sun-less viability shouldn’t even be up for contention. That’s not our priority. Our priority should be finding out what’s making the tier unhealthy and the simplest solution to fix it.

If banning 2 Pokémon makes Sun perfectly fine then that’s far more preferable than banning an entire play style, according to Smogon rules, so that’s what we should do.

If we find out that Sun is still too much with Venusaur gone, then even still with Charizard gone, that’s when consideration for a Torkoal/Ninetales ban or a Heat Rock ban or a Drought ban should be considered.

 

[KSt3ve]

Hello all, I'd like to discuss about the Sun teams and how to counter them. As you know, the biggest threats in the sun teams are Charizard and Venu thanks to their talents, but also pokemons like Darmanitan, Chandelure...

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Heat Crash
- Body Slam
- Darkest Lariat
- Earthquake

I feel like this is the best check we have for venu lo, Chandelure and Charizard choice specs :

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Snorlax in Sun: 121-144 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Unfortunately, Snorlax takes a lot of damage anyway on weather ball. Snorlax can only stop Charizard from sweeping your entire team. To stop Charizard effectively, you would have to play Spdef tyranitar with AV Snorlax. I'll talk about it at the end.
Also, Snorlax can't OHKO Charizard without the rocks.

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 168-198 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Snorlax also blocks Chandelier very well, but if the Choice Specs does a lot of damage, I think we could rather see choice scarf, which are totally wall by snorlax. You just have to watch out for the trick.

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Snorlax in Sun: 109-130 (23.5 - 28.1%) -- 91.4% chance to 4HKO

On the other hand, snorlax is a very effective check to venu, it is able to tank very well the hits and to rispoter effectively.

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 87-103 (18.8 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 173-204 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Snorlax Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (with the lo recoil, it's a ohko)


Snorlax is able to check effectively Venu and a little less well Charizard Specs. So to really counter Charizard, Ttar Spdef is excellent. He totally stops Charizard, but not venu

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Stone Edge

252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 98-116 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
In addition to stopping Charizard, tyranitar stop the drought, put down the rocks and can also hit hard against the sun teams who are generally very offensive and don't have a lot of check to tyranitar.

Now, let's also talk a little about Darmanitan, because this pokemon is also a very big threat in the sun teams. The Choice Band set can destroy very defensive pokemons such as milotic in 2 hits.

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 220 Def Milotic in Sun: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 174-205 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

To stop this monster... We can't stop it. The set choice band destroys the entire metagame with Flare Blitz / EarthQuake. Only rocks and recoil damage can stop it, which leads to a lot of 50/50 between your fire resistance and your ground resistance.


So, to make a recap of how to effectively stop (in my opinion) the threats of a team sun, we need Snorlax Av, Tyranitar Spdef, A solid ground resistance (for Darmanitan), A solid fire resistance (again for Darmanitan) like Arcanin Defensive.
And finally, to solidify all this, a wish pass as umbreon or sylveon is appreciated to hold on the time.

With this kind of core, you still have room for a pokemon, you're not at all weak to Sun, but the problem is that if all the teams have to play this kind of core to not be weak to Sun, it restricts the teambuilding so much.
I think we should ban Drought. Too powerfull and too restrictive.

That's all guys, thank you for reading! Don't hesitate to give me your opinion also on how to stop Sun teams.

 

[PlusC]

Just regarding Tyranitar;

252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a OHKO with some hazards (Modest can OHKO without)

Which part of why I prefer Gigalith for this role.

 

[Just_Aaron]

If banning 2 Pokémon makes Sun perfectly fine then that’s far more preferable than banning an entire play style, according to Smogon rules, so that’s what we should do.

But Sun wasn't even use without Venusaur (and even then, people were just starting to use Zard)

Also banning Charizard would also affect RU (Although if his uses keep increasing he would eventually go to UU though)

 

[Hogg]

Again, we are not voting on Drought at this time. We unbanned Venusaur to test if it was still overwhelming in the current meta, and are re-voting on Venusaur as we do with all the UUBLs. It would be entirely misleading to unban Venusaur and then use that as an excuse to ban Drought.

Several people here have suggested that there are problems beyond Venusaur. If that's the case, that's fine. We can review those once Venusaur goes (as seems likely to happen based on the discussion thus far). If it turns out that Charizard is still overwhelming even with without Venusaur due to the rise of its Specs set, then we can vote on that shortly. There will be a new voting slate after the tier shifts regardless, so we can even consider voting on it as early as next week if it is genuinely a problem.

 

[Monky25]

Now that the drought discussion kinda has been put on hold since we're all waiting for the venusaur ban to take place, might as well talk about some potential drops from OU these shifts. All of the mons listed are definitely going to have a strong impact on the tier (NOTE: Not all these drops are guaranteed, these are just the ones that even have a chance of being dropped)

- While Chansey is still a solid pick in OU, it finds itself outclassed by blissey on balance and many more team archetypes. A couple weeks ago I posted about how if blissey were to rise to OU and this drop down to UUBL, it could be retested due to it and blissey having lots of the similar checks in the tier. I am not saying Blissey is going to rise to OU this shift nor chansey drop this shift, but it's definitely something that could happen and chansey would fit well into the tier, as it does the same things blissey does, though it can get worn down by hazards a bit easier due to it needing eviolite.

- Alolawak was initially hype at the beginning of dlc due to it being a check to top tier OU mons like magearna and volcarona. Also, poltergeist was just fun to spam. However, the hype has died down and many are starting to realize that there are better checks to magerana and volcarona like rotom-heat and cinderace. Also, weak defenses, reliance of thick club to do damage, meaning it's prone to rocks, and low speed have made players start to realize it isn't as good as it was though to be. Like chansey, there is a chance this thing won't drop these shifts, but it's definitely a mon that will drop to the tier sooner or later. This thing will be tough to check defensively, beating many of the tiers defensive staples.

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 562-663 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 228-268 (52.5 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (rhyperior cant switch in, but can OHKO with earthquake)
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 474-558 (120.6 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 354-416 (105.9 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing-Galar: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 246-291 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ( toad cant switch in but can knock off or scald to do lots of damage)
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Palossand: 410-486 (109.6 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 620-732 (181.8 - 214.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Basically this thing kills nearly every top defensive mon in the tier with the exception of rhyperior, which still takes heavy damage. It even destroys tier legend jirachi. However, this mon can be checked offensively quite easily. Here's another bunch of calcs, this time of breakers who can kills Alolawak (these all outspeed max speed)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 608-716 (232.9 - 274.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 270-320 (103.4 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 468-552 (179.3 - 211.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Lycanroc-Dusk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 420-494 (160.9 - 189.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 218-257 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 342-404 (131 - 154.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 510-600 (195.4 - 229.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 450-530 (172.4 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are all breakers in the great tier of viability rankings who can threaten alolawak. However, virtually none of these can switch in on alolawak. Final verdict: Im not sure. We have plenty of slow pivots that can bring alolawak in and it can absolutely tear shit up. However, it may be fine in practice rather than on paper as it can be checked offensively by lots of top tier attackers. Definitely a scary drop for us.

- This mon is the one I'm most sure of dropping. OU has been giving Bisharp a hard time lately. Fire types like cinderace, volcarona, and rotom heat are everywhere, while tier is full of physical walls preparing for a much more threatening dark type; urshifu single strike. The environment just isn't suited for bisharp anymore, making me certain that this will drop saturday. As for how ti does in UU, it'll be very threatening. It will spear head screens HO with support from mons like grimmsnarl. It can bust through many of the tiers top defensive mons, though it is easier to check than alaolwak due to rhyperior, toad, and body press skarm being able to hurt it back. It's also checked by the fast fighting types that define this tier. It also faces competition from other dark types like obstagoon, TTar, incineroar, and krook. Still, it'll be a fearsome breaker wit strong priority and stabs that will be hard to check. Final verdict: I think it'll be manageable. There are so many fast fighters to check it offensively and dark types to give it competition. It may be problematic, but i don't think to the levels of alolawak.

- The SM UU tier king is another mon that has a solid chance of returning these shifts. Too many fire types in OU beat it out, while it struggles to beat defensive staples like toxapex and corviknight. It also has 4MSS, deciding between SD, U-turn, BP, knock off, and Roost. These factors make it so scizor has a good chance to drop to UU these shifts. As for what it will do, that's obvious. SD BP BP BP BP. Skarm's exisence annoys it and both doublade and pallossand can take on non-knock off variants. Still, it'll be a solid offensive pivot and strong revenge killer to mons like terrakion, lycanroc-dusk, mimikyu, mamoswine, and hatterene. Final verdict: Scizor will be a solid mon in the tier. While it takes advantage of the tiers darks, it has checks like darm, incineroar, scarf fire punch jirachi, flamethrower noivern, and the fast fighters in the tier that will nail it with strong neutral damage.

All in all, here are my thoughts about OU mons likely to drop this upcoming shifts. There may be more drops like rapid-strike urshifu and mew but i felt too lazy to write stuff about them. To sum up, Chansey is a good alternative to blissey should an unlikely bissey rise occur, it's the least likely change to happen though. Alolawak may be too much as we have to rely solely on offensive counter play to it. Bisharp and scizor look manageable and solid tier pokemon to me, but they have a chance of being potentially problematic. UU is going to get strong drops regardless and im excited to see how they'll fit into the tier.

 

[BigFatMantis]

View attachment 265398- The SM UU tier king is another mon that has a solid chance of returning these shifts. Too many fire types in OU beat it out, while it struggles to beat defensive staples like toxapex and corviknight. It also has 4MSS, deciding between SD, U-turn, BP, knock off, and Roost. These factors make it so scizor has a good chance to drop to UU these shifts. As for what it will do, that's obvious. SD BP BP BP BP. Skarm's exisence annoys it and both doublade and pallossand can take on non-knock off variants. Still, it'll be a solid offensive pivot and strong revenge killer to mons like terrakion, lycanroc-dusk, mimikyu, mamoswine, and hatterene. Final verdict: Scizor will be a solid mon in the tier. While it takes advantage of the tiers darks, it has checks like darm, incineroar, scarf fire punch jirachi, flamethrower noivern, and the fast fighters in the tier that will nail it with strong neutral damage.

I, for one, would welcome our new Mantis overlords in UU. Scyther has been a lot of fun in UU, and adding Scizor would also be a lot of fun. Don't think it's too broken to be UUBL (certainly way less threatening than something like Diggersby). Even Indeedee checks it with terrain + mystical fire.

 

[Just_Aaron]

Bulky Swords Dance (Scizor) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 140 Def / 100 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
- U-turn

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Scizor: 255-300 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 296-350 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Scizor: 253-300 (73.7 - 87.4%) -- not a KO after Stealth Rocks
+2 16+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 392-464 (100.2 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Scizor: 133-157 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 16+ Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 378-446 (114.1 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Noice.

 

[Moutemoute]

I think it's better to wait the shifts before making too many assumptions at the risk of being disappointed. We have no idea if we're getting Pokemon such as Scizor or Marowak-Alola so trying to think if they're going to be broken or not doesn't make a lot of sense tbh.

By the way, I tried a bit Diggersby and while it's not as bad as I thought in the first place, I still believe it's too much for the tier. Band/Scarf are insanely great pivots which are hard to check especially when they're paired with Magneton since even Shed Shell Skarmory can lost vs this core because of Diggersby Knock Off. I tried a bit SD and it feels meh, mostly because of Venusaur/Charizard being able to handle a +2 Quick Attack and KO back. Things like Jirachi, Terrakion, Cobalion or Lycanroc are really common too which doesn't help Diggersby at all. But none of this Pokemon can come on Diggersby either and Scarf Diggersby can even RK all this Pokémon, without any prior damages so yeah like Venusaur I'm voting ban on this Pokémon. Underused doesnt need those kind of Pokemon..

 

[gglrg]

Now that the drought discussion kinda has been put on hold since we're all waiting for the venusaur ban to take place, might as well talk about some potential drops from OU these shifts. All of the mons listed are definitely going to have a strong impact on the tier (NOTE: Not all these drops are guaranteed, these are just the ones that even have a chance of being dropped)
View attachment 265395- While Chansey is still a solid pick in OU, it finds itself outclassed by blissey on balance and many more team archetypes. A couple weeks ago I posted about how if blissey were to rise to OU and this drop down to UUBL, it could be retested due to it and blissey having lots of the similar checks in the tier. I am not saying Blissey is going to rise to OU this shift nor chansey drop this shift, but it's definitely something that could happen and chansey would fit well into the tier, as it does the same things blissey does, though it can get worn down by hazards a bit easier due to it needing eviolite.
View attachment 265396- Alolawak was initially hype at the beginning of dlc due to it being a check to top tier OU mons like magearna and volcarona. Also, poltergeist was just fun to spam. However, the hype has died down and many are starting to realize that there are better checks to magerana and volcarona like rotom-heat and cinderace. Also, weak defenses, reliance of thick club to do damage, meaning it's prone to rocks, and low speed have made players start to realize it isn't as good as it was though to be. Like chansey, there is a chance this thing won't drop these shifts, but it's definitely a mon that will drop to the tier sooner or later. This thing will be tough to check defensively, beating many of the tiers defensive staples.

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 562-663 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 228-268 (52.5 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (rhyperior cant switch in, but can OHKO with earthquake)
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 474-558 (120.6 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 354-416 (105.9 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing-Galar: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 246-291 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ( toad cant switch in but can knock off or scald to do lots of damage)
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Palossand: 410-486 (109.6 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 620-732 (181.8 - 214.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Basically this thing kills nearly every top defensive mon in the tier with the exception of rhyperior, which still takes heavy damage. It even destroys tier legend jirachi. However, this mon can be checked offensively quite easily. Here's another bunch of calcs, this time of breakers who can kills Alolawak (these all outspeed max speed)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 608-716 (232.9 - 274.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 270-320 (103.4 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 468-552 (179.3 - 211.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Lycanroc-Dusk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 420-494 (160.9 - 189.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 218-257 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 342-404 (131 - 154.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 510-600 (195.4 - 229.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 450-530 (172.4 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are all breakers in the great tier of viability rankings who can threaten alolawak. However, virtually none of these can switch in on alolawak. Final verdict: Im not sure. We have plenty of slow pivots that can bring alolawak in and it can absolutely tear shit up. However, it may be fine in practice rather than on paper as it can be checked offensively by lots of top tier attackers. Definitely a scary drop for us.

View attachment 265397- This mon is the one I'm most sure of dropping. OU has been giving Bisharp a hard time lately. Fire types like cinderace, volcarona, and rotom heat are everywhere, while tier is full of physical walls preparing for a much more threatening dark type; urshifu single strike. The environment just isn't suited for bisharp anymore, making me certain that this will drop saturday. As for how ti does in UU, it'll be very threatening. It will spear head screens HO with support from mons like grimmsnarl. It can bust through many of the tiers top defensive mons, though it is easier to check than alaolwak due to rhyperior, toad, and body press skarm being able to hurt it back. It's also checked by the fast fighting types that define this tier. It also faces competition from other dark types like obstagoon, TTar, incineroar, and krook. Still, it'll be a fearsome breaker wit strong priority and stabs that will be hard to check. Final verdict: I think it'll be manageable. There are so many fast fighters to check it offensively and dark types to give it competition. It may be problematic, but i don't think to the levels of alolawak.
View attachment 265398- The SM UU tier king is another mon that has a solid chance of returning these shifts. Too many fire types in OU beat it out, while it struggles to beat defensive staples like toxapex and corviknight. It also has 4MSS, deciding between SD, U-turn, BP, knock off, and Roost. These factors make it so scizor has a good chance to drop to UU these shifts. As for what it will do, that's obvious. SD BP BP BP BP. Skarm's exisence annoys it and both doublade and pallossand can take on non-knock off variants. Still, it'll be a solid offensive pivot and strong revenge killer to mons like terrakion, lycanroc-dusk, mimikyu, mamoswine, and hatterene. Final verdict: Scizor will be a solid mon in the tier. While it takes advantage of the tiers darks, it has checks like darm, incineroar, scarf fire punch jirachi, flamethrower noivern, and the fast fighters in the tier that will nail it with strong neutral damage.

All in all, here are my thoughts about OU mons likely to drop this upcoming shifts. There may be more drops like rapid-strike urshifu and mew but i felt too lazy to write stuff about them. To sum up, Chansey is a good alternative to blissey should an unlikely bissey rise occur, it's the least likely change to happen though. Alolawak may be too much as we have to rely solely on offensive counter play to it. Bisharp and scizor look manageable and solid tier pokemon to me, but they have a chance of being potentially problematic. UU is going to get strong drops regardless and im excited to see how they'll fit into the tier.

To be honest i dont think marowak a will drop this month neither will chansey to bl marowak a still gets decent usage and does damage to almost everything in the tier. Chansey knows that blissey is slowly rising in usage but that doesnt stop it from getting usage it benefits from eviolite. Also, i think that togekiss and mew have a higher chance chansey and marowak a to drop

 

[PlusC]

Been loving Mantine lately, running

Modest
252 S Atk, 252 Speed, 4 S Set
Life Orb

Hurricane
Hydro Pump
Rain Dance
Roost


It absolutely shreds some teams. Here's some great replays;
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1160927075 vs Balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1160952475 vs Sun

 

[BigFatMantis]

I've been playing a lot with Diggersby lately - it was crushing everything at first, but now it seems it's not as overbearing as I thought. I think it's still too strong for the meta right now, but not as obviously broken as it used to be. We are maybe one or two other defensive forces away from it being manageable, so maybe in a few months we could try it and some others again (hopefully at the same time), since I am sure the council will vote to re-ban it.

 

[kumiko]

Hey all,

As I'm sure a lot of you are aware, the month changes to august tonight for us Americans, meaning tier shifts will be some time tomorrow. We don't want to have an awkwardness voting for these UUBL Pokemon at the same time as dealing with potential drops, as such, we have voted already and come to a conclusion.

Both Diggersby and Venusaur are now BANNED from SS UU. If The Immortal or Marty could make the change when they have a moment, it would be greatly appreciated.

Venusaur has been all the rage on the ladder this week. Sun has been everywhere, to the point that people are wondering if Charizard is broken on top of just Venusaur. Venusaur, in particular, does the same things it did back when we first banned it. Its toolkit make it the premier Chlorophyll sweeper for the tier, and it is an absolute menace. Only things with incredible amounts of SDef investment, such as Blissey, AV Reuniclus, and SDef Fire-types (Incineroar, Centiskorch, etc) can shrug off a boosted attack and do anything back. Blissey, if not running Thunder Wave, is simply setup fodder against Growth + Giga Drain. AV Reuniclus, while more than capable of OHKOing Venusaur, could still fall victim to the very niche Knock Off. Incineroar can still get cooked by Earth Power, much less it tank a Sludge Bomb on the switch and the Venusaur switch out. Venusaur has means to get around all of the primary answers to it, but it really doesn't need to do anything special to be banworthy. A simple set of Giga Drain / Weather Ball / Sludge Bomb covers just about everything necessary and gives you the tools necessary to win.

Diggersby has been a bit overshadowed this week on the ladder, in comparison to Venusaur at least. However, it was entirely evident that it was still overwhelming. Scarf sets were very clearly not that effective in comparison to the early stages of SS UU; a lot of Skarmory for one thing, alongside the tier just being generally bulkier and more capable of switching into its STABs. But that's pretty much it. Life Orb and Choice Band sets were insanely potent. Against these two sets, Diggersby can pick up kills vs anything you can throw at it if it clicks the right move. Its efficiency at breaking and sheer power were simply unrivaled in this tier. Quick Attack, Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Knock Off, and U-turn all alongside SD + Earthquake give it all the tools it could ever need; Diggersby even can use Agility and Spikes effectively.

With that, that's the last of the UUBL Pokemon. We will actively look and see if there's ever a time for one of the UUBLs to get another look in the tier, but most likely we won't be looking at them again until the second expansion pack for SS drops in November. We are still actively looking into the top dogs within our tier (Charizard, Jirachi, Lycanroc-Dusk, and Terrakion) and evaluating what the proper course of action with them is. Hogg and I at the moment plan to send out a community wide survey sometime after the first round of UUWC to get a grasp of how the community feels about the metagame and Pokemon within it.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I don't really like when things get banned for being "too strong" unless they are really just totally overwhelming.

I am, however, in favor of banning things that are entirely non-competitive. And by that, I mean things like Jirachi, that people just abuse with RNG. It's not fun, and it's not very competitive. It goes beyond just the brainless Scarf/Head spam, it gets other moves that proc at 40-60%, and now uses Thunder too for Skarmory with 60% prz chance. Anything that relies on those chances to be effective isn't a good competitive element imo. It's not THAT hard to overcome (it's not as strong as many OP UUBLs), but the fact that it's not very competitive should have it looked into more. I'd rather have Alola-Ninetales in the tier than Jirachi.

 

[PlusC]

So imo the current suspect mons are Jirachi, Slowking, Lycanroc and Terrakion.

 

[Moutemoute]

I don't really like when things get banned for being "too strong" unless they are really just totally overwhelming.

Does that mean you consider Venusaur and/or Diggersby not to be too strong ?

I am, however, in favor of banning things that are entirely non-competitive. And by that, I mean things like Jirachi, that people just abuse with RNG. It's not fun, and it's not very competitive. It goes beyond just the brainless Scarf/Head spam, it gets other moves that proc at 40-60%, and now uses Thunder too for Skarmory with 60% prz chance. Anything that relies on those chances to be effective isn't a good competitive element imo. It's not THAT hard to overcome (it's not as strong as many OP UUBLs), but the fact that it's not very competitive should have it looked into more. I'd rather have Alola-Ninetales in the tier than Jirachi.

While I agree with most of what you said it's not that easy to determine if something is really uncompetitive. Like Slowbro-Galar is a pretty bad Pokemon overall in Underused yet it is super uncompetitive because of its ability Quick Draw which paired alongside Quick Claw allows it to become a "meme-mon" where it can basically change the outcome of the match if its player gets lucky because it can outspeed every Pokemon and clean a whole team after a Nasty Plot. In this case, Slowbro-Galar is way worst than Jirachi because unless Jirachi which can be checked with faster threats, things with Rocky Helmet (if we're talking about physical sets), you can't really check a Slowbro-Galar unless you run dozens of priorities. Also trust me, Ninetales-A would be way worst than current Jirachi.

Also to answer PlusC we should not suspect test any Pokemon before August shifts since we could get/lose some Pokemon.

 

[Pluim]

So imo the current suspect mons are Jirachi, Slowking, Lycanroc and Terrakion.

Jirachi I agree. Slowking probably is fine, Terrak is great but not broke, and Lycanrock... Lycanrock is meh. i don't get how it's that great.
I'd say (If we were to suspect rn, which we won't) Jirachi, Charizard, Hatterene, and maybe Ttar and Grimmisnarl but the last 2 are most likely fine.

 

[Destin77]

I agree for Venusaur, but now, it's an opportunity to Villeplume and Roserade to Shine

The meta UU is going to explode, we're waiting the DLC Shift

Diggersby was not as Strong as I thought because of Sun meta, poor Diggersby...

For Uubl test in UU I suggest Durant and Conkeldurr

PS : it's Chapino

 

[BigFatMantis]

Does that mean you consider Venusaur and/or Diggersby not to be too strong ?

I think they are fairly strong - I don't have a strong opinion against them being banned. Venusaur with sun is definitely too strong though. Diggersby is almost manageable and I think will be manageable in the future when UU gets one more defensive check for it.

While I agree with most of what you said it's not that easy to determine if something is really uncompetitive. Like Slowbro-Galar is a pretty bad Pokemon overall in Underused yet it is super uncompetitive because of its ability Quick Draw which paired alongside Quick Claw allows it to become a "meme-mon" where it can basically change the outcome of the match if its player gets lucky because it can outspeed every Pokemon and clean a whole team after a Nasty Plot. In this case, Slowbro-Galar is way worst than Jirachi because unless Jirachi which can be checked with faster threats, things with Rocky Helmet (if we're talking about physical sets), you can't really check a Slowbro-Galar unless you run dozens of priorities. Also trust me, Ninetales-A would be way worst than current Jirachi.

Also to answer PlusC we should not suspect test any Pokemon before August shifts since we could get/lose some Pokemon.

I also think Quick Claw Slowbro-G should be banned actually. I was going to write up a whole thing about it in my current post because i also don't like when people use it and it is totally uncompetitive, it's just not very good is all compared to Jirachi. I don't think banning Slowbro-G is necessary - but a ban on Quick Claw like the good old days is probably worth discussing. Quick Claw is just not a competitive item at all. And without Quick Claw, Quick Draw is too bad to be considered at all over Regenerator.

 

[Stellar]

I think they are fairly strong - I don't have a strong opinion against them being banned. Venusaur with sun is definitely too strong though. Diggersby is almost manageable and I think will be manageable in the future when UU gets one more defensive check for it.



I also think Quick Claw Slowbro-G should be banned actually. I was going to write up a whole thing about it in my current post because i also don't like when people use it and it is totally uncompetitive, it's just not very good is all compared to Jirachi. I don't think banning Slowbro-G is necessary - but a ban on Quick Claw like the good old days is probably worth discussing. Quick Claw is just not a competitive item at all. And without Quick Claw, Quick Draw is too bad to be considered at all over Regenerator.

Quick Claw has never been officially banned as far as I know. I think that's a common misconception.

 

[Seucra Lockhart]

Just a question why is lycanrock dusk sopopular?I've faced it a couple of times and never found it troubling.IMO I just think it's a shittier terrakion but I would love to hear the reasoning as too why that's not the case and why it's even near being "top dog" status.

 

[PlusC]

Accelerock and Taunt are the only real reasons to use it over Terrakion, but it is at a very nice speed tier. The only thing faster than it outside of Scarfers is Talonflame who you just Accelerock to death.

 

[AllTerrainVen0moth]

The thing I want to know is why Lycanroc-Midday got enough usage to end up here last month

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I like CB tyranitar to counter sun, u bring it in vs torkoal and u stone edge/rock slide while something comes in or they sack it, I have never seen in my ~40 games of playing during the venasaur time period that I found it broken and sweep teams, you can always reset weather with ttar, and wall venasaur with cobalion/skarmory . and I also used thunder wave jirachi to help with venasaur, chairzard, and shiftry. its my opinion but I never found venu broken.

Also, Lycanroc-mid got enough usage as a HO lead to be dropped in UU

 

[Spyro]

Just a question why is lycanrock dusk sopopular?I've faced it a couple of times and never found it troubling.IMO I just think it's a shittier terrakion but I would love to hear the reasoning as too why that's not the case and why it's even near being "top dog" status.

I wouldn't say it's a shittier Terrakion because they're different in a lot of ways. It has more speed, it has Accelerock, Endeavor for lead sets. Has Tough Claws boosted Crunch/Sucker Punch to actually hit things like Palossand and Sand Rush I guess but Terrakion is bulkier and hits a bit harder.