★ np: SS UU Stage 5: Change is Gonna Come (Diggersby & Venusaur BANNED)

[kumiko]

hello all, as I hinted at in our voting for the previous few mons, we will be looking at some more! The UU Council will be voting on Blissey, Scolipede, and Terrakion.

I'm sure everyone expected Scolipede to be on the chopping block; its movepool, STABs, stats, and speed boost it up to be a top tier threat. It's a dominating threat to this metagame; teams are forced to a very select handful of Pokemon to combat it and not lose at preview, should it find a chance to get in. Terrakion is another Pokemon I'm sure isn't the most surprising thing to be in consideration; its speed and STABs are quite frankly incredible in this metagame, and it's very difficult to switch into. Outs do exist, but they aren't easy and push it to consideration here. Blissey may be the most peculiar of these three, but it makes sense. We banned Chansey, which has virtually the same functionality as Blissey with better bulk, but is also more susceptible to Knock Off. Blissey has a serious niche over Chansey now, however, thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots. Boots can be super clutch and can potentially make up for the bulk difference between it and Chansey. This coupled with the fact that Blissey is far better than Chansey once it gets knocked (if it does) make it a fair case of Blissey to follow its prevo.

You can expect results from this vote on Sunday at the latest. We will also be discussing and voting on a couple of UUBL Pokemon to give a trial period, much like we did with Crawdaunt, Gengar, and Obstagoon. However, these drops will not be decided on until Monday at the earliest, as we don't want to screw over ongoing tournaments, such as UU Open. Should anything get unbanned for a trial period, we will vote on it in a similar timeframe as we did with the aforementioned three Pokemon. I also am not promising that any of the drops will be agreed to get unbanned! I feel like last time we covered the biggest potential unbans, so I think it's less likely we see multiple drops, but I'm not ruling it out, of course, as people like this

exist.

 

[Monky25]

Looking at the voting slate, both Scolipede and Terrakion are likely to get banned. Everyone and their mother have mentioned at some point about how scolipede is unbearable, being able to set up with SD + Speed boost, being able to destroy the majority of the tier and cant be revenged killed with the exception of gale wings brave bird and accelrock, both of which are only on specific pokemon. It has great coverage in rock slide, earthquake, and aqua tail that allows it to back up it's fearsome dual stabs. It's only real counter is skarmory, giving reason to ban this bug.
Terrakion is arguably the next broken mon in the tier after scolipede. Great offesnive typing and attack stats + a great speed tier makes it a fearsome breaker. While it's coverage is limited to earthquake and megahorn, it still only needs it's stabs+earthquake to blow away the majority of the tier. Despite counters such as palossand, galar weezing, and slowking existing, i think the metagame would be better off without this pokemon at the moment.
Blissey is a weird mon to be voted on, while skarmbliss is infamous in the tier, I do think Blissey shouldn't be banned just due to the sheer amount of physical breakers in the tier like goon, crawdaunt, cobailion, heracross, and mienshao who can all break through blissey. I just don't see it being banworthy at the moment, but part of it is my bias about a mon that should be retested, which I'll explain below.

Looking at the council retesting UUBL mons, I do think they should at least retest Diggersby, Primirina, Weavile, Durant, and Dracozolt.
Dracozolt particularly is the mon i was referencing, as i feel it's presence will overall limit skarmbliss while also being healthy for the tier. There are many faster mons now, 75 speed isnt that great and it's stabs have immunties to it, so fairies can switch in on outrage while the tiers many grounds in palossand, toad, and krook can switch in on electric attacks. Hustle is pretty unreliable, and it's weak defenses and exploitable speed tier can lead it to be punished by faster mons that can hit it for super effective damage. It's prescens will limit stall howver, which i think is good for the tier.
For the other mons that i think can be retested, diggersby sticks out as it is a weaker crawdaunt with less offensive presence and worse typing. I think if crawdaunt works, so can diggersby. Also, primarina can work in the tier. More special walls like blissey (if it stays), tentacruel, and mantine as well as steels like klefki, jirachi, and escavalier help keep primarina in check. Finally, i think weavile and durant should be given a shot. While both seem likely to get rebanned due to their braking power, I still think it's worth giving them another shot considering its been nearly 6 months since they were originally banned. New pokemon have dropped since then, so i think it would be worth to see how they function in the tier.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

>UU test bans skarm/bliss for a week
>Everything becomes batshit broken
>Add skarm/bliss back instead of banning broken things
>Play RU instead

 

[okispokis]

Yeah, can't really argue about Scolipede or Terrakion. However, I think we're kind of jumping the gun on Bliss. For starters: Boots Blissey? Really? That's what makes it problematic? Sure, that lack of hazard chip can be good on occasion, it's not necessarily worth giving up the added sustain of Leftovers, which aids Bliss' ability to handle Special threats, or Rocky Hemet to more directly punish physical attackers. Plus, that thin margin doesn't really matter against the myriad of strong physical attackers who can just 2HKO Bliss, meaning she can't really come in on them anyway. That's not to say Boots Bliss is entirely a gimmick, but I feel these other two items are just more useful overall. 2). Banning Bliss would throw the whole meta into chaos, as SkarmBliss is currently one of the only things keeping many of the tier's scariest attackers in check; Bliss in particular is one of only three mons that keeps Specs Kyurem from mowing over the whole tier (as detailed in a previous post of mine). Overall, I think banning Bliss would be terrible for the tier, and for once in my life I don't want a hard stall mon banned.

As for which borderline mons potentially deserve trial runs, I'd have to say Dracozolt, Primarina, Venusaur and Weavile. As mentioned above, Zolt now has reliable switch ins for both STABs and is generally limited by its lackluster speed, and could potentially be healthy for the tier due to dismembering SkarmBliss (once the need for this core isn't as present). Rina, meanwhile, also has a bevy of new specially bulks mons that can brush off its assault, such as Bliss, Rachi and Cruel.

I don't see anyone talking about Venu, but I also feel that it's less dangerous than before; Tyranitar's drop to UU means that Sun is no longer as consistent, Tentacruel and Dragalge don't care about anything bar Earth Power, and Scarf Jirachi can easily revenge kill, outspeeding it even under Sun (or full HP Talonflame comes in and just priority Flying moves its ass). Outside of Sun, Venu isn't particularly menacing, as 100 SpA isn't the most impressive in the tier without a boosting item, which it can lose easily against Knock Off users. Finally, there are multiple offensive mons that Venu can't actually switch into, as most sets lack recovery and so can't switch into attacks from the likes of Talonflame, Escavalier and Kyurem, plus STAB from Dragalge or Arcanine's sun boosted Fire attacks.

Weavile can easily yield high rewards, but it is also somewhat high maintenance due to its reliance on hazard removal (Boots Weavile is a dumb gimmick) and lackluster bulk preventing it from switching into anything bar Psychic attacks. Still, the sheer power and great offensive STAB is has means it's probably the most likely of my nominees to get rebanned.

 

[Moutemoute]

Hey as usual, when there is a council vote, I like to provide my opinions on what is suspected and this one promises to be no exception. I also would like to give my thoughts on the current UUBL which have not been "suspected back" already.

Suspected Pokemon :

Although I did vote "ban" for Chansey, I'm definitively not gonna do the same for Blissey. While I can deny that Blissey offenses are really good and SkarmBliss is the best defensive core we had in the whole SSUU I still think that Blissey is healthy for the tier and actually not that bad for the Underused. The current metagame is filled by powerful breakers and a lot of Pokemon can keep the momentum with either U-turn/Volt Switch or Teleport which is always nice to pressure Blissey. Heavy-Duty Boots is indeed a great item on Blissey which allows it to come in the long run on Entry Hazards but it also means it can't handle as much as its sets with Leftovers chip damages induced by U-turn/Volt-Switch. Since most team have powerful tool to force out Blissey (such as Crawdaunt, Heracross, Keldeo, Lycanroc-Dusk, Mienshao or Terrakion), I believe that we should keep Blissey in the tier. There isn't a lot of say outside of that..

This Pokemon is straight up broken and unhealthy in Underused. There is almost nothing on this tier which can check it effectively outside of Skarmory which can be pressured with a bit of support and Lycanroc-Dusk / Talonflame which can pressure it thanks to their priorities. However, with Screens support, Scolipede goes beyond that last issue by being able to handle those revenge killers, making it even more threatening and hard to face. Scolipede also has the tool to bypass some of its soft-checks such as Palossand by running Aqua Tail. There is absolutely no reason to keep this Pokemon in the tier as it doesn't bring anything good to it but problems. It's a 100% ban for me.

This one is probably the most iffy of the three and in my opinion the most controversial. Terrakium is one of the best wallbreaker in the tier and can pressure a lot of Pokemon thanks to its typing, attack and speed combination. However, I strongly believe the tier has the tools to check it to a certain extent thanks to Pokemon like Slowking, Doublade or Palossand. Some common Choice Scarf users are also able to threaten it and/or to force it out such as Jirachi, Mienshao or Rotom-Mow/Wash. All in all, I believe Terrakium has a good impact on the tier and that's why I'll be voting do not ban on it.

UUBL Pokémon :

I strongly disagree with Monky25 on Diggersby and I don't think this Pokemon would be healthy for the tier. While it's true that we have Skarmory which is a great check to it, I don't think there is a lot of Pokemon which can actually handle Diggersby atm. Diggersby also has a way better speed tier than Crawdaunt + U-turn which allows it to keep an offensive momentum on the opponent. Body Slam + Earthquake still hits really hard the whole current metagame and even defensive staples like Slowking, Palossand or Weezing-Galar don't appreciate a Choice Band Body Slam/Earthquake or a +2 attack from this beast. I don't see in which way Diggersby could has a positive impact and that's why I think it should remain UUBL.

Like Diggersby, I don't think Dracozolt brings anything good in Underused and I trully disagree with the argument "it pressures SkarmBliss so it's a good thing for the tier". While it's true that he does beat SkarmBliss, it's actually does not only pressure this core but basically the whole tier. Back in the day, when Dracozolt was banned, we had Hippowdon which was its best answer, yet not a prefect one at all. What has changed since that moment ? Well we lost Hippowdon.. Obviously there is some new Pokemon, new Ground-types such as Palossand and Krookodile and new Fairy-types but does it really means the current UU can handle Dracolzolt ? I don't think so... Sub + 3 attacks still looks nasty af while Choice Scarf is still able to nuke offensive threats while still being able to overwhelm things like SkarmBliss, Tentacruel, Slowking or Weezing-Galar. Also I disagree with the fact that 75 base speed is bad since it allows it to outspeed almost every defensive Pokemon in the tier except fast Tentacruel, fast support Jirachi or bulky Rotom-Wash. On the other hand, Monky25 mentionned its bad bulk which is actually kinda wrong since it has a pretty nice bulk of 90/90/70 (which is definitively not a bad bulk considering how hard this Pokemon is hitting). While it's true that Hustle can be seen as an iffy ability since you can miss, the sheer force this ability provide to Dracozolt make it more of an advantage than an issue in my eyes. I don't want to see that thing back in the tier, I don't want to be again in some 50/50 scenarios vs Dracolzolt and that's why I think it should remain UUBL.

Another Pokemon with Hustle.. what a surprise. In my opinion, Durant is one of the UUBL Pokemon which could be suspected back in Underused. While it's true that it's a really powerful wallbreaker, it can't abuse its moves as much as something like Bolt Beak from Dracozolt. Bug-type and Still-type are not the greatest STABs for sure but on the other hand, Durant has some real tools to pressure its checks such as Thunder Fang, Superpower, Stomping Trantrum or Crunch. At the moment, I don't think Durant would be a good addition to the tier since it would forces even more defensive backbone with Skarmory + Ground-type + filler. Like the other two, I think it's better for the tier if Durant remains UUBL for now.

I'll be brief on this one, this Pokemon is as broken as Scolipede, if not even more since it can snowball with ease thanks to Moxie. With Screens support, Gyarados is able to bump anything in the tier. The fact that it can adapt to bypass its checks thanks to Earthquake and/or Power Whip makes it really unhealthy for the tier. This Pokemon would not have a good impact on Underused for sure and that's why it should remain UUBL.

Not gonna lie, I think Haxorus became even better after the DLC release thanks to the new move Scale Shot which basically allows it to run way more effectively Swords Dance set. Choice Band Haxorus is still able to smack the majority of the tier while DD still look great af (and even more under Screens). Like Gyarados, I don't think this Pokemon would be healthy for the tier and while I do agree that Skarmory is able to counter all of its sets, I also think that it's really easy to weaken Skarmory especially with Knock Off support / Magneton. Once again, I think this Pokemon should remain UUBL.

Well believe me or not but I think Mamoswine is actually one of the most "manageable" UUBL for the current metagame. Back in the day, I firmly believed that Mamoswine was healthy for the tier and not too much. Unfortunately, most people think in a different way and it was banned at about 60%. Thanks to the shifts, Underused is now way more offensive with things like Lycanroc-Dusk, Starmie, Terrakium, Obstagoon, Crawdaunt or Keldeo which can all threaten in a way or another Mamoswine. Even on the defensive side, we got some tool which are able to handle to a certain extent Mamoswine such as Slowking, Skarmory, Rotom-Wash etc.. while it's true that Mamoswine would be a really strong presence in the tier, I also think that it wouldn't too much and that's why I think we should retest in UU Mamoswine.

No freaking way, this Pokemon is way too good for the tier and can support way too much powerful set-up sweepers. I don't see this thing being healthy when we have way more Pokemon which would abuse of Aurora Veil. 100% remain UUBL !

I trully think a lot of people are underestimate the potential of Primarina if it has to be retest in Underused. Back in SM, this Pokemon was insanely threatening even though we had checks such as Amoonguss, Empoleon, Tentacruel and Blissey. Now in SS, half of those checks are not here anymore or in OU and Primarina has gained a insanely good new tool : Calm Mind. I don't understand people who are saying that since we have Blissey in the tier, Primarina would be fine because it's not the case at all ! Obviously Blissey is an incredible check to Choice Specs Primarina but can he really handle CM + Rest variants ? Well I don't think so. Primarina has the tool to be played like offensive CM + Rest + Chesto Berry Sylveon or with CM+RestTalk and I don't see which Pokemon could really handle that threat.. Mantine I guess ? But if Primarina has some speed investment to outspeed Mantine then you're screwed.. I don't think this Pokemon can be handled by the current tier and that's why I think it should remain UUBL.

I absolutely don't know what to think about Venusaur + Sun in the current metagame. It's probably still too much for the tier even with things like Blissey, Tentacruel, Dragalge.. My mind isn't clear on this case so by default I would assume it's better if Venusaur remains UUBL.

Like Gyarados, Weavile has already been voted by the council and while I understand that some people would like to try it out after the shifts, I feel like it would be too hard to handle especially with its new tool Triple Axel which provides it a STAB with potential power of 120 BP. Its speed tier is beyong good and its typing allows it to punish most of the tier. Swords Dance set would probably be nasty and really hard to revenge kill. Since this one has already been voted on, I don't think there is much to add ; Weavile should remain UUBL.

That's all for today folks. I hope those explanations of my thoughs were clear and that people now understand why most UUBL are probably still too much for the tier even after the shifts. Don't forget that we (the council) must focus on the good being of the tier and that even tho it's always tempting to see how a Pokemon would be in a different metagame, we must remember that if a Pokemon is retested, it must bring something which may lead to the proper development of the tier. Thanks for reading me and have fun while playing UU !

 

[Donphantastic]

Hi folks Donny P. (W) here to give my takes on the current voting slate for council, as well as general thoughts on the meta right now.

1)

Unlike moute above me I wholeheartedly think that the blob is too much to deal with. While it still has access to classic stall based wishpassing/ heal belling sets, it has found new life on offensive builds where it acts as a blanket check for the majority of our special attackers as well as more passive mons. Thanks to a combination of an ungodly HP stat, decent spdef and natural cure, it can come in on many common pokemon such as: LITERALLY ANY SPECIAL ATTACKER THAT LACKS TAUNT, and teleport out to get a good match up in. These attributes allow blissey to be a quick band aid on any team lacking special bulk,which I simply do not think makes for a healthy meta.

2)

Broken. Absolutely broken. SD + Speedboost on a mon with decent enough bulk (lives non cb eq/knock from krook, for example) and enough speed to outrun everyone at +1 (Notably scarf jirachi/musketeers) is simply too much to deal with. Offensive checks are limited to Lycanrock, Full HP Talonflame, and Doublade. Defensive checks include Palossand/Skarmory and that's it. Not much more needs to be said other than this mon also fits best on degenerate HO's and elevates them from MU fish to borderline broken.

3)

This one I have yet to be convinced is broken. We don't have much in the tier that can stomach a +2 LO hit, but that is an argument that can be said for nearly all swords dance life orb sweepers. It's fast, but not fast it's impossible to deal with (Notably slower than Lycanrock-Dusk who I think on certain builds is a better terrak as well as everyone's favorite rng abuser scarfrachi) and the omnipresence of slowking as a reliable pivot has put this one on the back burner for me.

All in all I think that SSUU has the potential to be one of the greatest UU's ever had. The interplay of mechanics such as buffed teleport and boots make for dynamic games where a lot of pokemon are viable. The lack of a single gamebreaking mechanic allowing for an almost guaranteed 1shot or set up (Looking at you Z moves/Megas/Gems) makes it so that much like gen 4, almost anything can work if you really want it to. I am excited to see what the future holds for us, and plan on making more fun teams to break the meta.

(P.S. Jirachi is actually broken #BanSereneGrace)

 

[TaxiCab]

Boots Heliolisk

Heliolisk @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Voice
- Grass Knot
- Volt Switch

Before any potential bans happen I just wanted to drop this post because I think that right now heliolisk is fantastic, and because I haven't seen a single heliolisk on ladder I wanted to share my thoughts on this mon. There are a ton of posts in this thread about how good the rotoms are right now, which is completeley true; they're fantastic, but heliolisk (which was already sneaky good before dlc) got better as well. The speed tier is really good and allows you to revenge terrak, keld, and cobalion, and you can also revenge a bunch of other things, including mimikyu and crawdaunt because you're immune to their prio, which is super cool. Heliolisk is faster than the rotoms, hits harder, and has better coverage. You can take advantage of rotom-wash, skarm, and non psyshock slowking (psyshock does ~60), and being a ghost resist in gen 8 is really nice to have. With hazards chip this mon shreds a ton of teams, especially because none of the grounds can beat you.

You're probably thinking right now "wow taxi boots heliolisk sounds about as bad as you are" but I've found boots to be really cool, because a lot of teams rely on chip from hazards and LO to remove heliolisk, and while I tried silk scarf, I didn't find myself clicking hyper voice that often, and boots is just so much more worth it and allows you to infinitely volt around stuff until the team is weak enough to finish off. Specs is bad because you can't switch moves.

Calcs

-252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 156-184 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252 SpA Heliolisk Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Palossand: 294-346 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 175-207 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 348-410 (104.1 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

edit: went out and got a replay to back this up yw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1148951676

 

[pokemonisfun]

Boots Heliolisk

Heliolisk @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Voice
- Grass Knot
- Volt Switch

Before any potential bans happen I just wanted to drop this post because I think that right now heliolisk is fantastic, and because I haven't seen a single heliolisk on ladder I wanted to share my thoughts on this mon. There are a ton of posts in this thread about how good the rotoms are right now, which is completeley true; they're fantastic, but heliolisk (which was already sneaky good before dlc) got better as well. The speed tier is really good and allows you to revenge terrak, keld, and cobalion, and you can also revenge a bunch of other things, including mimikyu and crawdaunt because you're immune to their prio, which is super cool. Heliolisk is faster than the rotoms, hits harder, and has better coverage. You can take advantage of rotom-wash, skarm, and non psyshock slowking (psyshock does ~60), and being a ghost resist in gen 8 is really nice to have. With hazards chip this mon shreds a ton of teams, especially because none of the grounds can beat you.

You're probably thinking right now "wow taxi boots heliolisk sounds about as bad as you are" but I've found boots to be really cool, because a lot of teams rely on chip from hazards and LO to remove heliolisk, and while I tried silk scarf, I didn't find myself clicking hyper voice that often, and boots is just so much more worth it and allows you to infinitely volt around stuff until the team is weak enough to finish off. Specs is bad because you can't switch moves.

Calcs

-252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 156-184 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252 SpA Heliolisk Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Palossand: 294-346 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 175-207 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 348-410 (104.1 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

edit: went out and got a replay to back this up yw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1148951676

Yeah boots Heliolisk can be a nightmare to play against I can back you up even though I’ve never used him, he definitely caused me some issues before. I’m kind of big on Heliolisk in general because his speed is good and his coverage is almost impeccable (getting at least a neutral STAB everything).

One of the bad things about him is the Ground weakness though. I feel like so many people forget to have Ground resists when they build for this new meta! This is a public service announcement! Don’t forget your ground resists!

 

[TaxiCab]

I definitely agree with that sentiment, there aren't a lot of teams with good ground resists, part of it is that there's not a ton of great ground resists right now. Outside of the rotoms, noivern, weezing, skarm and i guess mantine, the other ground resists are like golisopod, celebi and bronzong are kinda suspect because they got worse.

 

[Luirromen]

Hi, I have seen everyone talking about the new drops and how the have developed on the metagame, but nobody talked about how old mons are developing on this new metagame, and I wanna share how I find them on the actual metagame, if they are winners or lossers thanks of the tier shifts

Galarian-Weezing

Winner
​

G-Weezing really enjoy this new drops, since there are more stuff that it can actually switch in and check, also new teammates, is able to check stuff like Krookodile, Skarmory, Tyranitar and Mienshao, also enjoys being paired with Jirachi and Blissey since they can check special attackers, probably as a Defogger is not that good actually as it used to be, but as an offensive T-Spikes setter is pretty good or defensive with WoW and Toxic, this mon survived will survive this tier shifts. Don't dare OU to steal it for Urshifu.

Noivern

Loser
​

Sadly, Noivern didn't enjoy this tier shifts, Jirachi, Tyranitar and Blissey came to end Noivern's career, if noivern already had a difficult time dealing with Rhypherior and Gigalith, Tyranitar makes what they do and better, Jirachi can be a bulky steel types with reliable recovery with Wish, and good movepool to annoy it, I dont have to explain Blissey. Also Skarmory is a more reliable ground inmunity, from the offensve side, Kyurem has a bigger SpA than Noivern and a good movepool, Noivern still being decent as a pivot but nos as good as it used to be, so sadly this guy is probably going to let us next month.

Rotom-Wash

Winner
​

The support that Washtom gives to the team is more valuable than ever now, able to check new threats on Terrakion, Krookodile and Ttar, and being a good Defog User, also now Pain Split is more valuable agaisnt Skarm/Bliss, also enjoys being paried with Jirachi for Wish suport, as a Set Up sweeper with Nasty Plot Im not very sure how effective would be actually, but prob is nice agaisnt some balanced teams without a real answer, so this guy is pretty effective on this metagame.

Necrozma

Loser
​

Necrozma was considered by a lot of people one of the most difficult mons to play around, DD Sets didnt have a real answer since incineroar dislikes eq or get Knocked Off HDB, CM variants were also difficult to play around, paired with Rillaboom and a Grassy Seed made it impossible to rk, however this shifts dropped 2 good Dark Types on Krookodile and Tyranitar, Krookodile alsmost a counter to DD Variants, Intimidate + Dark typing and not being weak to ground like Incineroar makes it a good choice agaisnt it, Tyranitar also could check physical variants but makes it even better agaisnt special ones, also Skarmory can deal with physical variants, so, this guy really hates this shifts

Incineroar

Unsure
​

Tbh Im not very sure about Incineorar, it gained new victims if it runs SD+CC, however Krookodile is a faster Dark Intimidate user that doesnt relies on HDB, also has acces to Knock Off and other support moves on Stealth Rock, but I find Incineroar still being decent on this metagame, a bit outclassed by Krookodile but not completely unviable, I would like to see other opinions and how will develop on the future

Roserade

Unsure​

I dont have any idea if people keeps running Roserade, I tried it to use it on a Hazard Stack core with T-Spikes + Spikes Skarmory and Rocks Ttar, sure it doesnt enjoy Jirachi, Skarmory and Blissey messing around, but as teammates they are good, aslo there are a lot of new victims for its dual stab combination and Sleep Power is more valuable with Escavalier being down in usage, Sub Seed sets could work agaisnt Blissey or Leech Seed in general, also I would like opinions about Roserade

Reuniclus

Winner
​

Despite the tier now having 2 new viable Dark Types, reuniclus is a good choice on balanced buils, Colbur Berry variants can lure on them, and also paired with Skarmory as Skarm completely checks both of them, also CM sets are capable to break Skarm Bliss cores, Jirachi can be considered a Counter since it tanks Psychic stab and Focus Miss, and just afraid of Shadow Ball, and can pressure Reuniclus with Body Slam + Iron Head. Despite this new checks, new teammates makes Reuniclus, specially CM sets, more valuable.

Rhyperior/Gigalith

Losers
​

Umm, ig is obvius why this 2 are losers, Tyranitar do what they do but better, its a better check to Toxtricity and Psychic types, Gigalith is not that much outclassed, since it works better against fairy types than Ttar, but yeah, not a real reason to run this 2 having Ttar on the tier (also I retract from saying that this 2 outclassed Ttar at the beggining of the new meta) Good news RU players, maybe you get one of this next month or even both.

Keldeo

Winner
​

Keldeo basically got a lot of new victims, capable to break SkarmBliss, and take advantage of build running Ttar, also capable to offensively check Kyurem and Krookodile, this Pony is way more valuable actually, also unbans give it 2 new victims on the Goon and Crawdaunt, and Speed tie with the mighty Terrakion, I find Keldeo pretty good on this metagame and a solid offensive tool.

Copperajah

Loser
​

Copperajah not only got outclassed as a Steel type by Jirachi and Skarmory, also lost its best partner Rillaboom, also as a special pivot Ttar can work better and keep providing rocks, also got a ton of new checks on Fighting types and Krookodile, I dont see a reason to use Cooperajah on the actual metagame aside from an offensive Steel types that makes good use of Choice Band, probably dropping again to RU.

There are other mons but these ones were the ones more succesful previus to July Drops, happy laddering

 

[Twilight]

As a response to the above post from Luirromen I wanted to state how I disagree with the sentiment that Rhyperior isn't worth using anymore with Tyranitar in the tier. While SpD Tyranitar does take hits better from stuff like Noivern and Specs Toxtricity and pressures Psychic-types easier, the latter being something you shouldn't even be relying on Rhyp to do, Rhyperior still has plenty of redeeming qualities worth using over it. Unlike Tyranitar, Rhyperior actually prevents the aforementioned Toxtricity from simply Volt Switch spamming against it, which is good role compression if you want a Flying resist and Ground-type in one. Rhyperior also doesn't completely fold to super-effective hits on the physical side, it's bulky enough to take a CB Close Combat from Terrakion after all. Thanks to Solid Rock and its typing Rhyperior is able to check foes like unboosted Lycanroc-Dusk, Scyther, U-turn Talonflame, Darmanitan, etc. Ofc I am not trying to undermine Tyranitar being able to handle stuff like Kyurem better but there is enough that differentiates why you would favor one over the other. Gigalith, on the other hand, is definitely less desirable unless you are ridiculously Noivern and Scyther weak.

Noivern and Necrozma are also still good but definitely took a hit from the shifts in terms of making them easier to handle. Won't go into those much though.

Dragalge

Dragalge @ Dragon Fang / Black Sludge / Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 124 HP / 252 SpA / 132 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor
- Toxic Spikes / Focus Blast
- Flip Turn

People should use Dragalge more, it's a fantastic wallbreaker with a good amount of utility in its moves and typing. Getting access to Flip Turn allows Dragalge to pivot out on all the Steel-types that it can struggle to break like Bronzong, AV Copper, SpD Rachi, which is great especially when it doesn't struggle to fit it with its strapped movepool. It's able to check Keldeo and Cobalion + is a Dragon-type that prevents all Fairy-types safely switching into it bar Klefki. Dragon Fang and Specs sets are able to 2HKO offensive Jirachi with Draco Meteor and Skarmory can't pivot into Draco Meteor from Specs as it drops to 2. I'd only run Focus Blast with Specs sets personally, Scald is technically also an option worth considering. The Speed is enough for defensive Sylveon but you can run less and more bulk.

+

If people are looking for a good core to start with I recommend pairing it with a Fighting-type that takes advantage of the Steel-types and Blissey it brings in. In return, it pressures the Fairy-types for them. An example is Dragalge + Heracross but honestly any strong Fighting-type works like Terrakion or Lucario.

Mowtom

Rotom-Mow @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Leaf Storm
- Defog / Nasty Plot
- Discharge / Thunder Wave

Rotom-C is great rn especially when our tier lacks very few Ground immunities. With Celebi and Roserade usage taking a hit and Pokemon like Seismitoad and Palossand getting more usage it only got better. Lilburr already highlighted this Pokemon in her previous post with the scarf set so I shall share the standard Leftovers set I've primarily been using. Discharge allows you to maintain an Electric STAB option that doesn't make you switch out but can also punish switchins like Kyurem. Nasty Plot is an option though I don't think it does it as effectively as Washtom, but it will give it better-breaking power despite inevitably lowering its SpA with Leaf Storm.

Thoughts on votes:

Scolipede, ban that shit. Shouldn't have lasted another week. Blissey is an odd one but it got a good amount of buffs this gen with Boots and Teleport making it fit on offensive teams easier without draining momentum. The loss of Pursuit also benefits it greatly. I'm not really sure what I think of it but SkarmBliss cores are definitely difficult to break especially when supported by another 4 members. It's definitely not difficult to force out and some of our SpA attackers can beat it or have access to momentum moves. I don't have a strong enough opinion to know whether it should be banned or not personally. Terrakion is just one of those Pokemon where if I have a Rock and Fighting resist I just accept it as good enough as long as the other members don't let it in too freely. Defensive teams are limited to about 4 Pokemon capable of reliably switching into Terrakion and it definitely constrains building in that aspect. I am still not fully bothered about whether it stays or goes but I am more inclined to keep it. As for UUBL mons, Mamoswine looks like the main one worth testing again. Maybe Venusaur is more plausible now or it just forces us to revisit Drought vs Venu. Durant looks like it can just run its usual coverage but use Thunder Fang over Crunch and still break everything bar Doublade or missing. Primarina lol. Most people are throwing around arguments like X pressures Skarm + Blissey or because Skarmory is here X mon is balanced, but this shouldn't be enough reason to justify freeing a lot of them.

I think Jirachi is a Pokemon that probably deserves to be looked at down the line because while it has a lot of positives there are plenty downsides it brings to the tier. Most people know Jirachi has the ability to run a plethora of viable sets: Scarf, E-belt, CM, Wish, Rocks, SubToxic, whatever ungodly combination you can think of. While some of its checks overlap, CM and Mixed Expert Belt sets have the ability to break pretty much any conventional check like Cobalion, Skarmory, Slowking, etc. Choice Scarf is obviously the most prominent set going around because a Steel-type being able to viably run a Scarf is amazing. While I don't deem it to be outright broken compared to some of the other shit we've gotten, I think this combined with its ability to fit on basically every single team with relative ease + Serene Grace doing its thing will lead to it being unhealthy or more people realizing this is the case. I'm not necessarily calling for a vote or suspect on it anytime soon, but it should be something that needs to be watched carefully imo.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

Blissey is dumb.

I hate seeing it in team preview, you hate seeing it in team preview, screw “healthy” I don’t want to fall asleep while playing UU.

Ban pls

 

[Sickist]

Blissey is dumb.

I hate seeing it in team preview, you hate seeing it in team preview, screw “healthy” I don’t want to fall asleep while playing UU.

Ban pls

And this right here is why we have a council and not a singular person deciding. This kind of thinking, while less on the side of boring and more on the side of fear, is why last gen is so terrible. People dont care if the pokemon is broken or unhealthy at all, they like what they want and the tier could burn for all they care as long as it's 'fun'. This kind of thinking is seriously dangerous and I warn you all of forming your opinions are the benefit of the metagame and not the benefit of yourself. While I mean no insult or attack against you, CreamyGlasses, I would suggest you perhaps look at things from a different angle.

Personally, I believe Blissey is plausable for a suspect at most. The idea that Blissey is unbearable to the tier when this generation we actually have pokemon that can break through Blissey AND stall consistently is a little ridiculous. While I do share Donphantastic's sentiment about it being a little stupid being able to be splashed on almost every team to blanket check the majority of the tier's special attackers, I also personally believe that this encourages players to be a little more creative with their sets. My main issue is while Blissey may not be an issue now, with godly innovators such as pif on the loose, Blissey may potentially become a problem, but only MAYBE. Theres no need to preemptively ban something that may be broken in the future but isnt right now.

Anyways, thats all from me right now. Hope you all enjoy your evening.

 

[Adaam]

In a metagame with Terrakion, Keldeo, Jirachi, Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, Heracross, Reuniclus, and no way to stifle Trick/Switcheroo/Knock Off, I find it hard to believe Blissey or even the Skarm + Blissey combo is anywhere near broken. We received 50+ mons this wave of DLC with a strong skewing towards offense. I understand people might dislike playing against fat teams, but if you're having significant troubles breaking it, that might be a problem in the builder and not with Blissey.

 

[N_Mareanie]

I think it's moreso the fact that Blissey now has access to both Heavy-Duty Boots and Teleport. HDB, along with no Pursuit being in the game, makes it incredibly hard to chip as opposed to prior generations. This, alongside the fact that it has Teleport, basically turning nearly every single special attacker into a momentum gainer, are definitely valid arguments as to why Blissey can be deemed as an unreasonable Pokemon to keep. It's always hard to guess if a bulky Pokemon is deemed unhealthy / broken or not, since it goes a bit deeper than just 'boom boom damage' like Scolipede or Terrakion.

Terrakion, Keldeo, Jirachi, Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, Heracross

I don't personally 100% understand this reasoning in particular since we literally quickbanned Chansey, and while Chansey is definitely way bulkier on the physical side, these 'mons would most likely still be able to break through it without problems (especially Terrakion, Obstagoon (considering Knock Off), Crawdaunt (also Knock) and Heracross).

Anyways those are my thoughts on it. I don't necessarily mind what will end up happening (preferably Blissey gets banned, but we'll see), but I am interested what the council will do.

 

[pokemonisfun]

You guys are gonna test Blissey now? Not last gen when stall got to 95+ GXE and dominated tournaments? But now when we have Porygon Z, Keldeo, Heracross, Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, Sir Fetched, Pangoro, Jirachi, etc. etc. I get the HDB + Teleport thing is new, but there's a shit ton of new attackers that can kill Blissey now and Blissey lost her favorite partners from last gen so you kind of have to address both.

1)

Unlike moute above me I wholeheartedly think that the blob is too much to deal with. While it still has access to classic stall based wishpassing/ heal belling sets, it has found new life on offensive builds where it acts as a blanket check for the majority of our special attackers as well as more passive mons. Thanks to a combination of an ungodly HP stat, decent spdef and natural cure, it can come in on many common pokemon such as: LITERALLY ANY SPECIAL ATTACKER THAT LACKS TAUNT, and teleport out to get a good match up in. These attributes allow blissey to be a quick band aid on any team lacking special bulk,which I simply do not think makes for a healthy meta.

"LITERALLY ANY SPECIAL ATTACKER THAT LACKS TAUNT" + Trick Porygon Z, NP Porygon-Z, CM Psyshock Jirachi, Keldeo, CM Reuniclus, Drain Punch Gear Toxtricity. These aren't even all of them, plenty of others can just run Trick or Sub CM.

Come on! Exaggeration is not helpful when discussing the metagame, right?

I don't personally 100% understand this reasoning in particular since we literally quickbanned Chansey, and while Chansey is definitely way bulkier on the physical side, these 'mons would most likely still be able to break through it without problems (especially Terrakion, Obstagoon (considering Knock Off), Crawdaunt (also Knock) and Heracross).

Terrakion, Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, Heracross, and Jirachi were not in this tier when Chansey was banned. Therefore your logic of "if Chansey was banned when these guys were around, so should Blissey" doesn't hold up well. I don't blame you btw, so many hectic tier changes. It might help if I try to make some resource making tiering history much easier to keep track of

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

If I was a council member, here is how I would vote, if anyone actually cares.

1. I really feel that there is more than enough counter play to this. Wish+Teleport isn't an option and the tier is currently defined by the fighting types. imho, Blissey is hust better. In theory, teleport allows you to put Blissey on any team style, but that just makes Blissey better and not broken.


2. Broken piece of shit. Gonna abuse it till I cannot anymore, but is super restricting to team building and destroys anything it wants except skarm.

3. Im more so leaning towards a ban for this. I could be convinced either way. I just think we probably need a suspect test for it afterwards no matter what happens.

 

[ausma]

Ah yes, we got ourselves a new ban slate! Let's get ittttt

So, I'll give my unasked thoughts on the matter, because I figure why not eh?



Blissey was something that I wasn't expecting to see on the chopping block, but with the reasons provided, it definitely makes sense. While its best partner in Skarmory is definitely much easier to deal with, Blissey on the other hand is a pretty hard Pokemon to chip down, and is an amazing glue on pretty much any team archetype thanks to the advent of HDB and Teleport, which let it perform immaculately well as a pivot. However, I really don't think this egg is all it's cracked up to be (hahahahahaha). While it definitely is a huge addition to the tier, I don't really think counterplay is spread so thin that it needs to be banned. Trick users, Psyshock users, and the Fighting-types that dropped all prey pretty easily on the egg and are natural picks in the builder. Additionally, Blissey only has Seismic Toss and Toxic as its main means of dishing out damage of some kind to them. About HDB; HDB are a nice way to mitigate hazard damage as a pivot, but using HDB forces it to forego Leftovers recovery, which, as a more defensive Pokemon, is huge, as losing passive recovery means it has to solely rely on Softboiled for longevity. Hugely, this also means it has to waste a precious turn on healing, and thus letting one of its many aforementioned checks in for free.

The main arguments against it, I feel, are how hard it is to chip down, as well as how well it synergizes with Skarmory to make an incredibly difficult-to-manage core in the tier. For the latter reason especially, I could see it banned, but it's not really on my chopping block at the moment, personally. I think there are bigger fish to fry, and I think it'd be better to wait and see how this performs without the physical breakers in the tier that are on the slate currently.

tl;dr: Abstain



Yes, YES, good, yes. I don't need to parrot what other people have said. I've already talked about it myself, too; get rid of it, send it to the shadow realm, strike it to the depths of which it came, etc. If your only actual answer is a single steel bird, that is kind of a sign that you are way, way too much for the tier.

tl;dr: Quickban this thing into oblivion



This one is kind of in the middle for me, but I remember mentioning it. This thing is an absolute, wallbreaking menace, and unlike its worse counterpart, it's got bulk to bat, allowing for it to stomach hits while dishing them. It's also a great SD user, has a great speed tier (albeit worse than Lycanroc), is a great Choice user, and is fantastic on Screens HO. Its offense also has versatility to bat, with Choice sets, SD sets, Rock Polish, and Double Dance sets all being pretty solid options; as such, it can certainly thrash you if you don't scout effectively enough, or have good answers, which is the arguably problematic factor, imo. I never really had an especially hard time dealing with it, since it does have its share of natural counterplay in the form of Pokemon like Palossand, Skarmory, and particular defensive pivots like Slowking (if you're not running Megahorn). I'm not really convinced of a quickban personally, but I'm not really against it either given that it is a pain in the ass to deal with if you aren't aptly prepared, and can smash your face in if you don't scout in a particular manner.

tl;dr: Unsure, leaning towards no

--

About a particular couple Pokemon that I've been messing around more with:



This thing is easily the most versatile Pokemon in the tier, if not the best. A slew of varying sets are all really viable, ranging from Scarf variants, CM variants, Wish support, Rocks--you name it. Though, I can't say for sure if I think it's banworthy. I personally have had net positive experiences with it as a great glue toward every archetype of play, but once it revealed its set it always ended up being manageable, whether I was facing it or using it. It has some really undesirable type weaknesses, as well, such as the ever prevalent Dark-type and Ground-type. The outright strength of its sets isn't particularly in question, but rather its amazing splashability and efficiency in filling any role that's needed, giving the tier an undeniable gauntlet of versatility. This would be the banworthy trait, in my opinion, as it could in of itself overcentralize the builder with its versatility to the point where you're at a disadvantage if you don't use it. Though, when it comes to versatility in the builder, the threshold of what's too much versatility is extremely hard to pinpoint, which leads me to believe that we definitely need to give this thing more time before we look into it any further. Otherwise, though, I've had a good time using it, and haven't really had trouble dealing with it (aside from obnoxious Serene Grace Iron Head bullshit).



Kyurem is an indecisive case, and I really don't know how to feel about it. It is an immensely good Specs breaker, but struggles singlehandedly with the prevalence of Blissey as a stopping point. But, without Blissey, this thing has a degree of power that is unfathomably good, and has provided my cleaners with a lot of opportunities to sweep games with how good it is at wallbreaking. I've also been messing with Sub Toxic variants, which turn the tables on Blissey and are really good at spreading status and wearing down the opponent's team more passively. Freeze-Dry is a common move that Kyurem users run, and is the one tool that pushed Kyurem from a niche stallbreaker to a useful stallbreaker and wallbreaker alike. Though, the question of it being too much is hard to say, at least with Blissey around to muddy things. Its checks do change with each set, but its speed tier at the moment and weakness to hazards are still glaring problems for it no matter what you run. I guess this one just needs more time to tell for sure, too.

 

[Hogg]

The votes are in!

Receiving 3 ban votes and 2 ban votes respectively, Blissey and Terrakion will remain UU. However, Scolipede has been unanimously banned from UU! With incredible power after a Swords Dance, great coverage and a fantastic Speed tier alongside Speed Boost, Scolipede has been an absolute nightmare for bulky teams and offensive teams alike. Its only reliable defensive answers have been Skarmory or Quagsire, and with Speed Boost ensuring that there are very few offensive checks, offensive counterplay is often limited to Lycanroc's Accelrock or an undamaged Talonflame's Brave Bird. It becomes even more oppressive when combined with Screens, often able to garner multiple boosts to reliably punch through things like defensive Weezing-G.

Votes

Also, as TDK mentioned in his post, the council is looking at an additional slate of 'mons to test back into UU. These will be handled the same way as Obstagoon, Gengar and Crawdaunt: a vote to test down, followed by a second vote at the end of the week to determine if they should stay. Right now the council is looking at Mamoswine, Primarina and Durant. Expect results of that vote tomorrow.

The Immortal Marty please ban Scolipede from UU!

 

[Spyro]

Seeing as Mew got banned for being too good of a lead hazard setter, (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I may be thinking of NatDex UU but I imagine SS UU would ban it for the same reason) Skarmory finds itself in a similar boat. Because it already has a built in Focus Sash it´s free to run Mental Herb to avoid the Taunt and respond with one of it's own. This set is great for HO and it's not difficult to get SR with one or two layer of Spikes at all.

Skarmory @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Tailwind

This set is stopped hard by Magic Bounce atleast Mew had Skill Swap to get around that so it may be not as broken but yeah Skarmory is definitely an S rank Pokemon for sure due to how it walls a good amount of the tier as well as fitting on both HO and more defensive teams. I would even go as far as saying that if you don´t have Skarmory in your team you're handicapping yourself. That's how good it is. It's the Clefable and Primal Groudon of UU.

Slowking @ Light Clay
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Teleport
- Scald

I've seen posts asking for a Grimmsnarl ban and I don't see it either. I would say Slowking is better in the long run than Grimmsnarl because of Generator and Teleport allowing it to do the job multiple times where as Grimmsnarl just sets up and doesn't have Teleport to counter people trying to stall the turns and no recovery. You can hard switch yeah but the Pokemon would take a hit coming in and another if it's a set up mon and if they happen to be using something like Scald good luck avoiding the burn. so Teleport Slowking is a little better imo not to mention the Pokemon it walls in addition like Keldeo etc.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

Ez mag double on skarm for free GG

healthy as can be please keep in UU

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Scolipede gets banned from UU three times in a row.

 

[Gekokeso]

Scolipede gets banned from UU three times in a row.

Staraptor:

 

[Just_Aaron]

Staraptor:
View attachment 261598

Imagine if Staraptor comes back just to get banned again

 

[Gekokeso]

Imagine if Staraptor comes back just to get banned again

If it came back right now it for sure would get banned, only actual counterplay rn are intimídate users who still get blown back by CC and skarmory, who already has to deal with the other physical attackers of the tier. You have to hope it gets chipped down with its own attacks and even then it already might have punched a hole in your team