I’d bet it maxes at b+, it’s base 100 SpA and fast as hell but only really goes fast and hits modestly hard, unless I’m really misunderstanding things.
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Regieleki has it rough with it's non-existent movepool, being outclassed by Thundurus and both Rotom formes imo.
However I still thought of some s**t it could do lol
Substitute + Screech (Regieleki) @ Throat Spray
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 Atk / 132 SpA / 124 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Substitute
- Screech
- Thunder Cage
- Acrobatics
Physical Attacker (Regieleki) @ Normal Gem
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Wild Charge
- Acrobatics
- Extreme Speed
- Screech / Rapid Spin
The idea is to use Screech on certain mons so that you can actually do some damage with your non-STAB. The first set uses Throat Spray to also boost your special attack, and I picked Thunder Cage so you can trap a Grass or Dragon type and actually hit them at -2 Def. The other one goes full on physical and uses Normal Gem to further boost your Extreme Speed while still losing an item so you can use Acrobatics. 124 Spe EVs outspeed Scarf Krookodile... if that's of interest. If not, I guess 48 Spe work to outran Scarf Rotom-Wash.
Anti-Rain (Regieleki) @ Choice Specs or Life Orb
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 40 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid or Naive Nature
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt / Rising Voltage
- Rapid Spin / Explosion
Rain most likely would start rising in usage, so here comes Regieleki, as a mon that can outran Modest Kingdra in rain without needing a Choice Scarf, allowing it to either use Choice Specs or Life Orb to boost its SpA. Rapid Spin is for support and giving a shot at outspeeding +2 Barraskewda (and 40 Def let take a Banded Rain-busted Aqua Jet from Full HP), while Explosion is Explosion. Rising Voltage is a meme but hey, who knows?
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 Atk / 132 SpA / 124 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Substitute
- Screech
- Thunder Cage
- Acrobatics
Physical Attacker (Regieleki) @ Normal Gem
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Wild Charge
- Acrobatics
- Extreme Speed
- Screech / Rapid Spin
The idea is to use Screech on certain mons so that you can actually do some damage with your non-STAB. The first set uses Throat Spray to also boost your special attack, and I picked Thunder Cage so you can trap a Grass or Dragon type and actually hit them at -2 Def. The other one goes full on physical and uses Normal Gem to further boost your Extreme Speed while still losing an item so you can use Acrobatics. 124 Spe EVs outspeed Scarf Krookodile... if that's of interest. If not, I guess 48 Spe work to outran Scarf Rotom-Wash.
Anti-Rain (Regieleki) @ Choice Specs or Life Orb
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 40 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid or Naive Nature
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt / Rising Voltage
- Rapid Spin / Explosion
Rain most likely would start rising in usage, so here comes Regieleki, as a mon that can outran Modest Kingdra in rain without needing a Choice Scarf, allowing it to either use Choice Specs or Life Orb to boost its SpA. Rapid Spin is for support and giving a shot at outspeeding +2 Barraskewda (and 40 Def let take a Banded Rain-busted Aqua Jet from Full HP), while Explosion is Explosion. Rising Voltage is a meme but hey, who knows?
Last edited:
TailGlowVM
Now 100% more demonic
Unfortunately the electric titan is completely walled by Assault Vest Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Thundurus-T, Rhyperior, Nidoking, Krookodile, Zarude, some Kommo-o, Mamoswine, Seismitoad, Nidoqueen, and Diggersby with its horrible movepool. And that's just down to the B+ rank. I don't think it's going to be worth it.
Good luck in RU, Regieleki.
Good luck in RU, Regieleki.
Raikou, Xurkitree and Toxtricity: I don't think so
Short post because i'm not really going to be messing around on ladder today but a couple of things I wanted to talk about here about stuff that might be worth exploring a little from first impressions.
Firstly on this matter, while I agree its got some tremendous issues there are some probably viable ways you can use it without just completely fishing. One thing in particular I discussed in pms earlier with people was the option of going for a Substitute, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Protect set with Toxic support from Pokemon like Moltres that would very effectively get stuff like Rhyperior toxic'd, Eleki becomes considerably more scary when you can't really stop its volts because it can just subtect stall your poisoned ground.
This seems a really cool option on rain right now, now we've lost stuff like Scizor that you kinda hate. It provides loads of great utility jam packed into a single slot as a check to opposing scary waters like Keldeo, but unlike Tapu BUlu isn't giving ur opponent grassy terrain support to better help their water resists, and offers great functionality like Healing Wish, U-turn, or Stealth Rock depending on your teams composition.
Another Pokemon i think might be worth exploring a bit in this new meta. I'd already considered it before as a fairly nice catch all to stuff like Mew, Sciz, Keldeo before but with Rain set to become a lot better now this mon is looking reasonably cool for certain teams. I messed around with offensive sets in DLC1 UU which were really cool, they could certainly beworth a brief look at again now since its got enough power to 2HKO stuff like Amoonguss and Zarude with a 3 attacks recover/ssap set, defensive sets also look like they should work decently as a check to shit like Mence, Keld, Rhyp etc and general status spreader and annoying breaker against fatter builds. Has Zarude issues but has some fantastic role compression that could be worth looking into.
Firstly on this matter, while I agree its got some tremendous issues there are some probably viable ways you can use it without just completely fishing. One thing in particular I discussed in pms earlier with people was the option of going for a Substitute, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Protect set with Toxic support from Pokemon like Moltres that would very effectively get stuff like Rhyperior toxic'd, Eleki becomes considerably more scary when you can't really stop its volts because it can just subtect stall your poisoned ground. This seems a really cool option on rain right now, now we've lost stuff like Scizor that you kinda hate. It provides loads of great utility jam packed into a single slot as a check to opposing scary waters like Keldeo, but unlike Tapu BUlu isn't giving ur opponent grassy terrain support to better help their water resists, and offers great functionality like Healing Wish, U-turn, or Stealth Rock depending on your teams composition. Another Pokemon i think might be worth exploring a bit in this new meta. I'd already considered it before as a fairly nice catch all to stuff like Mew, Sciz, Keldeo before but with Rain set to become a lot better now this mon is looking reasonably cool for certain teams. I messed around with offensive sets in DLC1 UU which were really cool, they could certainly beworth a brief look at again now since its got enough power to 2HKO stuff like Amoonguss and Zarude with a 3 attacks recover/ssap set, defensive sets also look like they should work decently as a check to shit like Mence, Keld, Rhyp etc and general status spreader and annoying breaker against fatter builds. Has Zarude issues but has some fantastic role compression that could be worth looking into.
What's up everyone, got a usage stats post right here. Done this a few times already but haven't done one in a while so here I am. Like the other times, I compare usage stats from the previous month to the month before that and talk about trends like notable increases and decreases in usage. Also, I'm going to leave a few questions at the end for whoever wants to answer them. Down below are the stats of the individual months in June and May.
Notable increases in Usage
(11%-->14.6%): Murder dog is back with a vengeance! This mon is easily one of the toughest wallbreakers to switch into and its easy to see why. A great speed tier, powerful and wide coverage moves like close combat, psychic fangs, and crunch, and the ability to revenge kill top threats like salamence and thundurus makes lycanroc a potent pick in the current meta. One of the best Pokemon out there right now, I think it will continue to get better in a meta where scizor cant revenge kill it
(8%-->12%) Buzzwole is another Pokemon who has increasingly getting better, with its LO roost set being absolutely amazing atm. Its ability to provide defensive utility while functioning as a wallbreaker with reliable recovery is extremely valuable in the current meta. Being able to own threats like zarude, mienshao, physical kommo-o, krookodile, and lycanroc is also nice. Fitting on nearly all types of teams, buzzwole is something that I don't see slowing down anytime soon.
(4.6%-->5.5%) Thundurus has been getting more recognition as of late, and I'm all for it. Thundurus legit is one of the most dangerous threats right now and its a shame to see him being underprepared for. Its pivot set is fantastic at disrupting enemy cores and paving the way for late game cleaners to sweep through. Its NP set is also very potent. Being able to threaten keldeo and prim, two top threats, is very appreciated for teams thundurus is on. This is just the start, and hopefully with thundurus being officially UU by usage it will get used a lot more.
Speaking of becoming UU by usage, all of these Pokemon have also finally become UU by usage as well. Not going to talk about the first three since I've talked about them previously, but zydog is an up and coming presence in the tier. This doggo is a potent wallbreaker that has only one safe switch in as buzzwole. Between the incredibly spammable thousand arrows alongside moves like extreme speed, outrage, toxic, and superpower, zygarde has become more and more threatening lately. An underrated wallbreaker, he def needs more usage.
- though not becoming UU by usage, both of these Pokemon would have risen if stats were based on 1 month changes. necrozma is a potent wincon in the tier. As an avid user of necrozma myself, I can attest to its viability. DD, Meteor Beam, and CM sets are all super good rn and get even better with the departure of mew. As for raikou, it has carved itself a niche as a fast pivot akin to zeraora a few months back. It has one of the highest speed tiers of all viable Pokemon and is able to fit on the common voltturn builds. Will these two get used in the coming months to finally hit UU by usage? Only time will tell.
Notable Decreases in Usage
(23%-->19%): A drop many expected, kommo-o has lost a lot of its dominance from the screens ban. Setup sets like clangorus soul and SD are much harder to justify now as it can be taken advantage of by threats like primarina and aegi. Rocker sets face competition from nihilego and rhyperior while mence is a more splashable dragon. It still gets a lot of usage though, and kommo-o may be able to rebound soon as new sets or techs get discovered.
(14%-->11.5%) Tang has also been on the decline, while amoonguss has been on the rise as of late. Spore is underprepared for and amoong can act as a much better knock absorber due to tang wanting to keep its assault vest. Still, tang is a great glue on teams and its ground resistance can help teams a lot. However, its hard to deny that tang is facing more and more competition from the funny mushroom
(7%--->2.6%) Screens are dead lol. Though not falling out this shift, grimmsnarl is no more, its viability tainted by the screens ban. Hopefully RU or NU can make use of other sets like choice band or bulk up. Our hairy friend simply has no place in UU anymore.
Though we all knew quag would drop, ninetales alola also drops down to RU, as it has no merit in using with veil being done for by the light clay ban. Ninetales still has potential as a NP sweeper down in lower tiers, but its simply hard to justify in UU now with this ban.
Tier Changes
starting with what we lose, both mew and scizor have risen up to OU. Mew was a great utility Pokemon, being a top spiker and being able to use its wide coverage to give it dangerous levels of unpredictability. It also had potent setup sets like nasty plot and dragon dance. Many people wanted it suspected, and the only reason it didn't get one is because it would've risen naturally. As for scizor, the metal bug will be missed. The glue it provided to teams was very useful, and its potency was a sweeper was near unrivaled. Both of these Pokemon are solid in OU though, so at least they will be used in their new home. However, we also got some new drops that look fun to use.
starting with the least exciting drop, we have regieleki. After months of unviability in OU, regieleki comes down to UU to be....kinda meh. Screen sets are poor with the light clay ban, so eleki has to find other sets to use. Its poor coverage and bulk keep it from being useful though. Its a really huge matchup fish and with threats like krook, rhyperior, chansey, AV tang, and nidos everywhere, eleki will likely be seldom used and have a low viability. It still has its niches though, being able to go against ham poorly prepared for electric types and owning the brand new rain, but seriously, just use thundurus.
another new drop, we have nidoking. This bad boy tears apart defensive teams, with chansey being the only Pokemon in the tier that doesnt get 2HKod by it. With killer moves like sludge wave, earth power, fire blast, ice beam, and thunderbolt, many have hyped up nidoking to be a top threat. His wife nidoqueen has been on the decline though, so whether or not nidoking stays high in usage is up to him. Still, glad to get a new mon to use in the tier.
last up we have the god pelican, pelipper! Rain has been pretty poor the last few months in UU, but now we have an actually good setter of rain who has reliable recovery, pivoting, and good offenses. No more dickass politoed, pelipper is now king. Rain seems to have all the tools to succeed now, with great abusers like barraskewda, seismitoad, kingdra, keldeo, azumarill, tornadus, mantine, and thundurus all being viable in the tier, rain may be too much now. In my experience it wasn't bad at all, but time will tell as the tier develops with these shifts.
though not rising to OU just yet, both of these Pokemon hit the cutoff for the individual month of June and would have risen then. While cloyster is not important, buzzwole is a tier staple. Time will tell whether both of these Pokemon will rise, but its important to note that by October these Pokemon may not be with us anymore.
Lastly, here are the usual questions for anyone to answer
1. What do you think of the tier changes? Thoughts on the rises or drops?
2. What Pokemon do you think will grow in viability from these shifts?
3. Conversely, what Pokemon you think will get worse from these changes?
4. What Pokemon will continue to get better and/or what Pokemon will continue to decline?
5. What do you think about the drops we got?
6. Any underrated Pokemon or sets that you are using that you want to share?
Hope you all have a great day :)
Rank | Pokemon | Usage % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Scizor | 30.39423% |
| 2 | Krookodile | 23.37227% |
| 3 | Salamence | 20.17997% |
| 4 | Aegislash | 19.47167% |
| 5 | Kommo-o | 19.01587% |
| 6 | Thundurus-Therian | 16.20791% |
| 7 | Rotom-Heat | 16.15954% |
| 8 | Jirachi | 15.16925% |
| 9 | Mew | 14.65509% |
| 10 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 14.61481% |
| 11 | Nihilego | 14.35206% |
| 12 | Amoonguss | 14.13069% |
| 13 | Rotom-Wash | 13.92897% |
| 14 | Primarina | 13.68102% |
| 15 | Moltres | 13.40472% |
| 16 | Chansey | 12.72909% |
| 17 | Buzzwole | 12.45581% |
| 18 | Conkeldurr | 11.94496% |
| 19 | Tangrowth | 11.49976% |
| 20 | Celesteela | 11.49814% |
| 21 | Zarude | 11.46458% |
| 22 | Azelf | 11.37562% |
| 23 | Keldeo | 10.96167% |
| 24 | Gyarados | 10.47961% |
| 25 | Mamoswine | 9.47999% |
| 26 | Azumarill | 9.03673% |
| 27 | Hatterene | 8.11064% |
| 28 | Slowbro-Galar | 7.52375% |
| 29 | Tentacruel | 6.01274% |
| 30 | Thundurus | 5.47709% |
| 31 | Moltres-Galar | 5.27015% |
| 32 | Crawdaunt | 5.10259% |
| 33 | Necrozma | 4.96411% |
| 34 | Nidoqueen | 4.86982% |
| 35 | Tapu Bulu | 4.85122% |
| 36 | Zygarde-10% | 4.80108% |
| 37 | Raikou | 4.56192% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Scizor | 30.39423% |
| 2 | Krookodile | 23.37227% |
| 3 | Salamence | 20.17997% |
| 4 | Aegislash | 19.47167% |
| 5 | Kommo-o | 19.01587% |
| 6 | Thundurus-Therian | 16.20791% |
| 7 | Rotom-Heat | 16.15954% |
| 8 | Jirachi | 15.16925% |
| 9 | Mew | 14.65509% |
| 10 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 14.61481% |
| 11 | Nihilego | 14.35206% |
| 12 | Amoonguss | 14.13069% |
| 13 | Rotom-Wash | 13.92897% |
| 14 | Primarina | 13.68102% |
| 15 | Moltres | 13.40472% |
| 16 | Chansey | 12.72909% |
| 17 | Buzzwole | 12.45581% |
| 18 | Conkeldurr | 11.94496% |
| 19 | Tangrowth | 11.49976% |
| 20 | Celesteela | 11.49814% |
| 21 | Zarude | 11.46458% |
| 22 | Azelf | 11.37562% |
| 23 | Keldeo | 10.96167% |
| 24 | Gyarados | 10.47961% |
| 25 | Mamoswine | 9.47999% |
| 26 | Azumarill | 9.03673% |
| 27 | Hatterene | 8.11064% |
| 28 | Slowbro-Galar | 7.52375% |
| 29 | Tentacruel | 6.01274% |
| 30 | Thundurus | 5.47709% |
| 31 | Moltres-Galar | 5.27015% |
| 32 | Crawdaunt | 5.10259% |
| 33 | Necrozma | 4.96411% |
| 34 | Nidoqueen | 4.86982% |
| 35 | Tapu Bulu | 4.85122% |
| 36 | Zygarde-10% | 4.80108% |
| 37 | Raikou | 4.56192% |
Rank | Pokemon | Usage % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Scizor | 33.19538% |
| 2 | Kommo-o | 23.63077% |
| 3 | Krookodile | 21.76184% |
| 4 | Salamence | 19.48173% |
| 5 | Aegislash | 19.43694% |
| 6 | Mew | 16.60363% |
| 7 | Rotom-Heat | 16.03645% |
| 8 | Moltres | 15.73992% |
| 9 | Jirachi | 15.50563% |
| 10 | Thundurus-Therian | 14.99347% |
| 11 | Primarina | 14.88963% |
| 12 | Keldeo | 14.60717% |
| 13 | Tangrowth | 14.22091% |
| 14 | Amoonguss | 12.83867% |
| 15 | Nihilego | 12.66176% |
| 16 | Celesteela | 12.52167% |
| 17 | Chansey | 11.30754% |
| 18 | Rotom-Wash | 11.28717% |
| 19 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 11.04566% |
| 20 | Gyarados | 11.04400% |
| 21 | Conkeldurr | 10.06010% |
| 22 | Azelf | 9.98113% |
| 23 | Hatterene | 9.27769% |
| 24 | Mamoswine | 9.22494% |
| 25 | Zarude | 8.94087% |
| 26 | Buzzwole | 8.34466% |
| 27 | Azumarill | 8.28140% |
| 28 | Tentacruel | 7.82558% |
| 29 | Grimmsnarl | 6.97430% |
| 30 | Slowbro-Galar | 6.14712% |
| 31 | Moltres-Galar | 6.13977% |
| 32 | Zygarde-10% | 6.01159% |
| 33 | Rhyperior | 5.97089% |
| 34 | Nidoqueen | 5.79493% |
| 35 | Necrozma | 5.48388% |
| 36 | Tapu Bulu | 5.46134% |
| 37 | Raikou | 4.72208% |
| 38 | Thundurus | 4.58680% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Scizor | 33.19538% |
| 2 | Kommo-o | 23.63077% |
| 3 | Krookodile | 21.76184% |
| 4 | Salamence | 19.48173% |
| 5 | Aegislash | 19.43694% |
| 6 | Mew | 16.60363% |
| 7 | Rotom-Heat | 16.03645% |
| 8 | Moltres | 15.73992% |
| 9 | Jirachi | 15.50563% |
| 10 | Thundurus-Therian | 14.99347% |
| 11 | Primarina | 14.88963% |
| 12 | Keldeo | 14.60717% |
| 13 | Tangrowth | 14.22091% |
| 14 | Amoonguss | 12.83867% |
| 15 | Nihilego | 12.66176% |
| 16 | Celesteela | 12.52167% |
| 17 | Chansey | 11.30754% |
| 18 | Rotom-Wash | 11.28717% |
| 19 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 11.04566% |
| 20 | Gyarados | 11.04400% |
| 21 | Conkeldurr | 10.06010% |
| 22 | Azelf | 9.98113% |
| 23 | Hatterene | 9.27769% |
| 24 | Mamoswine | 9.22494% |
| 25 | Zarude | 8.94087% |
| 26 | Buzzwole | 8.34466% |
| 27 | Azumarill | 8.28140% |
| 28 | Tentacruel | 7.82558% |
| 29 | Grimmsnarl | 6.97430% |
| 30 | Slowbro-Galar | 6.14712% |
| 31 | Moltres-Galar | 6.13977% |
| 32 | Zygarde-10% | 6.01159% |
| 33 | Rhyperior | 5.97089% |
| 34 | Nidoqueen | 5.79493% |
| 35 | Necrozma | 5.48388% |
| 36 | Tapu Bulu | 5.46134% |
| 37 | Raikou | 4.72208% |
| 38 | Thundurus | 4.58680% |
Notable increases in Usage
Notable Decreases in Usage
Tier Changes
Lastly, here are the usual questions for anyone to answer
1. What do you think of the tier changes? Thoughts on the rises or drops?
2. What Pokemon do you think will grow in viability from these shifts?
3. Conversely, what Pokemon you think will get worse from these changes?
4. What Pokemon will continue to get better and/or what Pokemon will continue to decline?
5. What do you think about the drops we got?
6. Any underrated Pokemon or sets that you are using that you want to share?
Hope you all have a great day :)
Let's talk about Nidoking for a little bit. I've been waiting for this mon to come back to UU since it first rose back in like January, so obviously I'm very excited about this. Nidoqueen already completely tears apart teams with its perfect near-perfect coverage, and Nidoking is Nidoqueen on steroids. Honestly, if not for the fact that its defenses are piss poor and Chansey walls it (unless Superpower sets become a thing? :eyes:) I'd be tempted to call it broken lol.
This is what I think will be the optimal moveset for Nidoking:
Tyrant (Nidoking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
Fire Blast is locked in here over BoltBeam because if not for that Nidoking gets walled by Buzzwole too. Honestly, there's not much else to say about this set, since it's the same one Nidoking's been running since it got Sheer Force, but I'm just really excited I get to use this mon again, and I hope you all do as well!
1. I think the tier changes are pretty neat. Scizor leaving the tier is obviously huge, but I think the meta game will be more fun without it.
2. Literally every rain abuser and some things that can stop rain. Rain finally got a good setter and now it’s taken the ladder by storm (get it?). Some abusers such as seismitoad mantine and kabutops can really tear some teams to shreds. Tang and Amoongus are also really good checks to a bunch of rain sweepers, and both appreciate scizor leaving.
3. Kantonian Moltres just lost its best niche in checking scizor, and hates rain spam. I think Moltres has the same issue that it did in OU where all of the things that it is supposed to check have ways to cripple/beat it. Super underwhelming rn imo.
5. Eleki is super cool and fun to use, but it’s pretty bad. UU has no shortage in electric immunities, but I think it will end up in a better place than in OU. Nidoking is super strong, and has no switch ins at all. My main problem with king is that it’s speed tier is kind of ass and it’s super easy to revenge kill. Most of the games I played with Nido it felt kind of like deadweight. Peli is obviously the most defining of all the new drops. Rain is incredibly strong and UU was already packed full of good abusers such as Keldeo and Azu. I doubt rain will stay just because of how centralizing it is. Maybe a Damp Rock ban?
7. Hope you have a good day as well :)
2. Literally every rain abuser and some things that can stop rain. Rain finally got a good setter and now it’s taken the ladder by storm (get it?). Some abusers such as seismitoad mantine and kabutops can really tear some teams to shreds. Tang and Amoongus are also really good checks to a bunch of rain sweepers, and both appreciate scizor leaving.
3. Kantonian Moltres just lost its best niche in checking scizor, and hates rain spam. I think Moltres has the same issue that it did in OU where all of the things that it is supposed to check have ways to cripple/beat it. Super underwhelming rn imo.
5. Eleki is super cool and fun to use, but it’s pretty bad. UU has no shortage in electric immunities, but I think it will end up in a better place than in OU. Nidoking is super strong, and has no switch ins at all. My main problem with king is that it’s speed tier is kind of ass and it’s super easy to revenge kill. Most of the games I played with Nido it felt kind of like deadweight. Peli is obviously the most defining of all the new drops. Rain is incredibly strong and UU was already packed full of good abusers such as Keldeo and Azu. I doubt rain will stay just because of how centralizing it is. Maybe a Damp Rock ban?
7. Hope you have a good day as well :)
Nidoking isn't walled by Buzzwole at all. Even if you ran a specially defensive Buzzwole, Sludge Wave is a 2HKO
Let's talk about Nidoking for a little bit. I've been waiting for this mon to come back to UU since it first rose back in like January, so obviously I'm very excited about this. Nidoqueen already completely tears apart teams with its perfect near-perfect coverage, and Nidoking is Nidoqueen on steroids. Honestly, if not for the fact that its defenses are piss poor and Chansey walls it (unless Superpower sets become a thing? :eyes:) I'd be tempted to call it broken lol.
This is what I think will be the optimal moveset for Nidoking:
Tyrant (Nidoking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
Fire Blast is locked in here over BoltBeam because if not for that Nidoking gets walled by Buzzwole too. Honestly, there's not much else to say about this set, since it's the same one Nidoking's been running since it got Sheer Force, but I'm just really excited I get to use this mon again, and I hope you all do as well!
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Buzzwole: 239-282 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You also couldn't switch into Ice Beam on this set with rocks/1 spike up, as Sludge Wave would have a very high chance to KO afterwards. With two minimum rolls, the damage would be 99.45%(12.5+36.1-6.25+57.1 )
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Buzzwole: 151-178 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can imagine all other sets have even more trouble switching in, offensive sets have a good chance of dying to Sludge Wave (92.6 - 109%), guaranteed with rocks/1 spike.
Some speculations about what its getting better and what gets worse due to the recent tier shifts
Roserade
Roserade right now gets way better, the factor that both Scizor being basically a counter and Mew the main Spikes setter competition leave the tier, gives Roserade the opportunity to be the new best spiker in the tier, also with the rise that Hatterene got to counter spikes mew benefits Rose, as Hatt wont want to switch on a Sludge Bomb.
We keep having Klefki, however relies only on status to punish the hazard remlvers of the tier, compared to Roserade that can both status and pressure with powerfuls stab Sludge Bombs. The other Spikes setter that can give competition to Roserade is Diggersby, but in my experience, fit Spikes on Diggersby is pretty difficult since you lose an important coverage on it (Seriusly, I regreted a ton of times the missing coverage on it for fitting spikes lol)
Nihilego
Oh boy, Nihilego was already a great pokemon, and now with Scizor gone who was capable to always offensively pressure it, Nihilego gets absolutely better. I can also see Meteor Beam sets getting better now, as before with Scizor ruling the meta you were going to get only 1 if not any kill with this set. The hazard utility keeps being great and acces to Knock Off to cripple Chansey and Aegislash is even better.
Tapu Bulu (LOL)
Like most of the community, Im dissapointed with Bulu's performance in the tier, as its unable to keep with the bulkier metagame, and the fact that scizor checks were also capable to check it and scizor itself ruined it was worse. Now however, Scizor is gone, and that is good for Bulu, and the fact that Rain is pretty much gonna be a thing rn, benefits Bulu as it can check rain threats and support a rain team itself, example is a core around Pelipper + Bulu + Rain Dish Tentacruel, Tentacruel is almost inmortal with such as huge recovery (18% per turn by getting Black Sludge, Rain Dish and Grassy Terrain) and Earthquake damage being halved its also nice. It keeps having the same 4MSS issue tho, but its for sure a better pick than before right now.
Lycanroc-D
Scizor gone, no more fear to Bullet Punch, a perfect coverage in Close Combat, Psychic Fangs and Crunch, a really good speed tier.
Now Lycanroc is the best priority user in the tier, and will be able to pressure faster threats on rain like Tornadus, Barraskweda and Mantine thanks to Accelerock. Probably our next S rank pokemon? :eyes:
Now my concerns about the new drops
Nidoking
and Regieleki
Nidoking is one of my favorite pokemon of SM UU and Im glad he finally gets here, it has a perfect coverage as many Gen 1 pokemon has, and can lure on its checks. I do not see nidoking getting broken or even banned, it obviusly has poor switch ins, but it doesnt apport so many defensive utilities and its not gonna make a big impact against more offensive oriented teams, his speed is okey, but not spectacular.
Eleki is meh, I do not expect anything great from it specially with Light Clay bann, maybe now you are obligated to run a Ground type on every team (but that was already pretty common and teams that didn't have one often had either amoonguss or tangrowth). Prob smthng with Thunder Cage could work with support, or try sometthing more gimmicky like pair it with Ring Target Trick Jirachi to lure on ground types (Idk lol).
Pelipper
and 
Pelipper is obviusly the most controvertial of the drops, itself it doesnt offer too much offensive attributes, but automatic rain + acces to u turn, Defog and Roost its a huge support for teams.
I wanna be more specific on Pelipper + Keldeo, there are obviusly a ton of good rain abusers (Barraskweda, the genies, Seismitoad, etc) but Keldeo is the most dangerous one, Specs Keldeo Hydro Pumps were already strong asf, now with Rain Support makes it even harder to switch, making Water Absorb Mantine and Jellicent as the only real switch ins to it. Compared to other rain abusers, keldeo has the enought power to bypass the two main bulky grass types of the tier, Amoonguss and Tangrowth, AV Tang was already 2HKO by Secret Sword after rocks, here some calcs
Vs
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Amoonguss in Rain: 231-273 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss in Rain: 168-198 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Tangrowth: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Rain: 147-173 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Primarina in Rain: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Boots RestStalk Rina:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Primarina in Rain: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Those are the most traditional Keldeo checks that we had been using, there are some others too but those 3 are the main ones.
The fact that Pelipper, compared to Politoed, that can just click u turn and bring keldeo in makes it good now despite we already had an automatic rain setter. We should be look closely to those 2 paired together.
Anyways, that is all for today, there are some other picks that got better but I would make this post longer, like Reuniclus or Azelf (BigFatMantis now it wont have to compete with Mew
hehe) ,happy new meta!
Roserade
Roserade right now gets way better, the factor that both Scizor being basically a counter and Mew the main Spikes setter competition leave the tier, gives Roserade the opportunity to be the new best spiker in the tier, also with the rise that Hatterene got to counter spikes mew benefits Rose, as Hatt wont want to switch on a Sludge Bomb.
We keep having Klefki, however relies only on status to punish the hazard remlvers of the tier, compared to Roserade that can both status and pressure with powerfuls stab Sludge Bombs. The other Spikes setter that can give competition to Roserade is Diggersby, but in my experience, fit Spikes on Diggersby is pretty difficult since you lose an important coverage on it (Seriusly, I regreted a ton of times the missing coverage on it for fitting spikes lol)
Nihilego
Oh boy, Nihilego was already a great pokemon, and now with Scizor gone who was capable to always offensively pressure it, Nihilego gets absolutely better. I can also see Meteor Beam sets getting better now, as before with Scizor ruling the meta you were going to get only 1 if not any kill with this set. The hazard utility keeps being great and acces to Knock Off to cripple Chansey and Aegislash is even better.
Tapu Bulu (LOL)
Like most of the community, Im dissapointed with Bulu's performance in the tier, as its unable to keep with the bulkier metagame, and the fact that scizor checks were also capable to check it and scizor itself ruined it was worse. Now however, Scizor is gone, and that is good for Bulu, and the fact that Rain is pretty much gonna be a thing rn, benefits Bulu as it can check rain threats and support a rain team itself, example is a core around Pelipper + Bulu + Rain Dish Tentacruel, Tentacruel is almost inmortal with such as huge recovery (18% per turn by getting Black Sludge, Rain Dish and Grassy Terrain) and Earthquake damage being halved its also nice. It keeps having the same 4MSS issue tho, but its for sure a better pick than before right now.
Lycanroc-D
Scizor gone, no more fear to Bullet Punch, a perfect coverage in Close Combat, Psychic Fangs and Crunch, a really good speed tier.
Now Lycanroc is the best priority user in the tier, and will be able to pressure faster threats on rain like Tornadus, Barraskweda and Mantine thanks to Accelerock. Probably our next S rank pokemon? :eyes:
Now my concerns about the new drops
Nidoking
and Regieleki Nidoking is one of my favorite pokemon of SM UU and Im glad he finally gets here, it has a perfect coverage as many Gen 1 pokemon has, and can lure on its checks. I do not see nidoking getting broken or even banned, it obviusly has poor switch ins, but it doesnt apport so many defensive utilities and its not gonna make a big impact against more offensive oriented teams, his speed is okey, but not spectacular.
Eleki is meh, I do not expect anything great from it specially with Light Clay bann, maybe now you are obligated to run a Ground type on every team (but that was already pretty common and teams that didn't have one often had either amoonguss or tangrowth). Prob smthng with Thunder Cage could work with support, or try sometthing more gimmicky like pair it with Ring Target Trick Jirachi to lure on ground types (Idk lol).
Pelipper
and Pelipper is obviusly the most controvertial of the drops, itself it doesnt offer too much offensive attributes, but automatic rain + acces to u turn, Defog and Roost its a huge support for teams.
I wanna be more specific on Pelipper + Keldeo, there are obviusly a ton of good rain abusers (Barraskweda, the genies, Seismitoad, etc) but Keldeo is the most dangerous one, Specs Keldeo Hydro Pumps were already strong asf, now with Rain Support makes it even harder to switch, making Water Absorb Mantine and Jellicent as the only real switch ins to it. Compared to other rain abusers, keldeo has the enought power to bypass the two main bulky grass types of the tier, Amoonguss and Tangrowth, AV Tang was already 2HKO by Secret Sword after rocks, here some calcs
Vs
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Amoonguss in Rain: 231-273 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss in Rain: 168-198 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Tangrowth: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Rain: 147-173 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Primarina in Rain: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Boots RestStalk Rina:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Primarina in Rain: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Those are the most traditional Keldeo checks that we had been using, there are some others too but those 3 are the main ones.
The fact that Pelipper, compared to Politoed, that can just click u turn and bring keldeo in makes it good now despite we already had an automatic rain setter. We should be look closely to those 2 paired together.
Anyways, that is all for today, there are some other picks that got better but I would make this post longer, like Reuniclus or Azelf (BigFatMantis now it wont have to compete with Mew
hehe) ,happy new meta!
Just some fun things I've tried, Pokemon I think are going to be very good, and thoughts.
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 104 SpD / 40 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb
- Knock Off / Toxic
- Rapid Spin
Given the popularity of people wanting to test rain here is a cool Pokemon I've been using to check opposing Keldeo. Tentacruel's ability is a non-factor in a majority of matchups so I haven't found too much harm in just running Rain Dish over the other two. The spread makes you faster than Modest Nidoking and Adamant Mamoswine. The Def is enough to avoid the 2HKO from CB Azu Play Rough and Liquidation then the rest in SpD to take Specs Hydro from Keldeo in rain better + this is nice for stuff like Salamence and Primarina in general. Now you can't just run this as your sole response because it'll get overwhelmed easily but it's something a bit more unique so thought I'd share in case people haven't thought of trying it.
I think Azumarill in general is insanely good. Every Tangrowth is AV, so aside from Amoonguss nothing else safely pivots into it. A big thing for me is just how valuable priority feels to deal with a lot of faster Pokemon. Losing Scizor opens up stuff like Lycanroc-D and Nihilego more, which Aqua Jet helps with. CB Azu is also strong enough to pick off other threats like Thundurus and under rain, Jet does 50 min to Barra. I think Belly Drum Azumarill is more or less a staple on most HO because Lycanroc-D is so threatening to these builds, especially now Scizor is gone. I suggest people use it more.
Initial thoughts on new drops:
Rain teams feel a lot better to use with a setter that isn't deadweight, but I think the playstyle as a whole is fine from experience. It will definitely have a big impact when it comes to having sufficient counterplay to it in the builder. However, I feel a lot of the checks to it aren't bad outside of this matchup and can easily slot onto a team. Maybe someone creates some OP rain shit that changes my mind but for now, it just feels like a good and viable playstyle.
Timid doesn't hit many Speed benchmarks other than Chandelure and Speed tieing with Kommo-o so I just run Modest. It lacks many hard counters but offensively it's okay enough to keep in check. A big thing is it also has to click the write coverage move sometimes to even make progress, though this is only the case in certain matchups. It has an expansive movepool that can make it a bit unpredictable in that last slot. Overall solid wallbreaker.
kek
Click Sprites for Importable
A team I was using around mid 1500s. Thundy + King feels like a great offensive core to get Nidoking in against those Grass-types. Here is a replay against a rain build ideally just to show you don't necessarily have to go to any extreme lengths to play around some of them. Naturally, this will depend on the build ofc.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1369162993-5cibopqah707amd4t2cb7pxjwmm418jpw
Curious to see what others have been using and their thoughts in general
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 104 SpD / 40 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb
- Knock Off / Toxic
- Rapid Spin
Given the popularity of people wanting to test rain here is a cool Pokemon I've been using to check opposing Keldeo. Tentacruel's ability is a non-factor in a majority of matchups so I haven't found too much harm in just running Rain Dish over the other two. The spread makes you faster than Modest Nidoking and Adamant Mamoswine. The Def is enough to avoid the 2HKO from CB Azu Play Rough and Liquidation then the rest in SpD to take Specs Hydro from Keldeo in rain better + this is nice for stuff like Salamence and Primarina in general. Now you can't just run this as your sole response because it'll get overwhelmed easily but it's something a bit more unique so thought I'd share in case people haven't thought of trying it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Tentacruel in Rain: 156-185 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Tentacruel in Rain: 156-185 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Rain Dish recovery, and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Tentacruel: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Tentacruel in Rain: 156-185 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Rain Dish recovery, and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Tentacruel: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Black Sludge recovery
I think Azumarill in general is insanely good. Every Tangrowth is AV, so aside from Amoonguss nothing else safely pivots into it. A big thing for me is just how valuable priority feels to deal with a lot of faster Pokemon. Losing Scizor opens up stuff like Lycanroc-D and Nihilego more, which Aqua Jet helps with. CB Azu is also strong enough to pick off other threats like Thundurus and under rain, Jet does 50 min to Barra. I think Belly Drum Azumarill is more or less a staple on most HO because Lycanroc-D is so threatening to these builds, especially now Scizor is gone. I suggest people use it more.
Initial thoughts on new drops:
Rain teams feel a lot better to use with a setter that isn't deadweight, but I think the playstyle as a whole is fine from experience. It will definitely have a big impact when it comes to having sufficient counterplay to it in the builder. However, I feel a lot of the checks to it aren't bad outside of this matchup and can easily slot onto a team. Maybe someone creates some OP rain shit that changes my mind but for now, it just feels like a good and viable playstyle.
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt / Fire Blast
- Ice Beam / Substitute / Stealth Rock / Anything else you need lol
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt / Fire Blast
- Ice Beam / Substitute / Stealth Rock / Anything else you need lol
Timid doesn't hit many Speed benchmarks other than Chandelure and Speed tieing with Kommo-o so I just run Modest. It lacks many hard counters but offensively it's okay enough to keep in check. A big thing is it also has to click the write coverage move sometimes to even make progress, though this is only the case in certain matchups. It has an expansive movepool that can make it a bit unpredictable in that last slot. Overall solid wallbreaker.
kek
Click Sprites for Importable
A team I was using around mid 1500s. Thundy + King feels like a great offensive core to get Nidoking in against those Grass-types. Here is a replay against a rain build ideally just to show you don't necessarily have to go to any extreme lengths to play around some of them. Naturally, this will depend on the build ofc.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1369162993-5cibopqah707amd4t2cb7pxjwmm418jpw
Curious to see what others have been using and their thoughts in general
Gotta support my boy Monky25, answers to his questions!
: I honestly feel a bit sad about losing Scizor. It's certainly a pain to check thanks to it's raw power, access to Knock Off to cripple common switch-ins like Salamence and reliable recovery in Roost but this is a bit of a blow to certain archetypes. Scizor was a great glue mon like Mew, but I think it leaving is for the better.
: dumb stupid idiot, Mew moving up to OU is a bit of a surprise but it being gone is fantastic. It's unpredictability and utility is unmatched, which made it pretty scary to see on preview even if it's more than likely a Spikes set, though It also could set up with the likes of nasty plot and dragon dance. Happy it left even if it was on like 80% of my teams
: The drop that I'm personally the most excited about. Nidoking is an amazing wallbreaker that's really able to utilise it's fantastic coverage, and when paired with LO Sheer Force it really does have limited switch-ins, though it isn't too hard to offensively check. Very intrigued about this mon, excited to build with it and see how it goes in the meta!
: Rain is more viable now with Peli around. Won't cover it a whole lot since most of what I want to say has already been said, but I still don't think Rain will be crazy, just better especially now that it's setter can also provide momentum to position it's breakers
: Me when I can't hit Ground-types
: No Scizor or Mew, this thing should start to really pop off soon enough. A Stealth Rock setter that beats pretty much every Defogger with a solid speed tier, great SpAtk and SpDef and the ability to snowball with Beast Boost is very threatening, keep your eyes peeled folks
: MURDER DOG! Lycanroc was already a very serious threat, and now with the most common way of revenge killing it out of the picture, I think we expect an A+ or even S- on our hands. Monky covered him pretty well, though something else i'd like to mention is how effective it can work with pivots, especially Thundy-I who works together with it to overload the Regen Grasses and other common switch-ins
That's all from me, have a good day/afternoon/night!
Just gonna cover two mons here, my personal input on two Pokemon i thi
I'll come back to this in maybe a week or two, i definitely wanna experiment with different Pokemon, builds and sets so sit tight!
That's all from me, have a good day/afternoon/night!
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Let's talk about Regieleki for a moment, because I feel people are underestimating the magnitude of this thing's capabilities thanks to the Light Clay ban and its limited coverage.
I think we should stop thinking of Regieleki as a screens setter, and start thinking of it as an exploding electric type cleaner on Rain teams (which are now going to be far better thanks to Pelipper dropping), or as a utility Pokemon built around team support with powerful STAB attacks. Regieleki as a Pokemon is way more flexible than you think.
Regieleki
Ability: Transistor - Transistor boosts the power of the user's Electric-type moves by 50%.
100 base Attack and Special Attack with a 50% boost to all its electric moves, Thunder doesn't miss under rain, has a high paralysis chance, and hits like an absolute truck thanks to STAB and Transistor along with its own respectable 110 base power, in addition, Regieleki's base 200 speed? Whack. Not to mention Regieleki also has a STAB and transistor boosted trapping move in Thunder Cage, and STAB Transistor boosted slowing support in Electroweb. Not to mention probably the fastest and one of the most powerful Volt Switch users in the entirety of the game for the reasons listed above. It of course has access to other Electric staples such as Thunderbolt, Wild Charge, etc.
Coverage, Different Options? If you're running Regieleki on a Rain team, presumably you'll have multiple Pokemon that can handle Ground types before Eleki even touches down on the field. You have access to Extremespeed for assured priority, along with Explosion to absolutely nuke something on the switch-in. There's a couple of additional options that I actually feel aren't being talked about much, but have specific niche uses. Acrobatics is a great move, base 110 if Regieleki isn't using an item (which given how it has access to Transistor means it won't be lacking for power) that nails Grass types like Amoonguss that resist its powerful Electric attacks. UU has also gained a great Rapid Spin user, that's right, Regieleki is the fastest Rapid Spinner in Pokemon and you now have it in UU. Reflect and Light Screen are of course still options, even if they've been neutered by the Light Clay ban. Five turns of protection can still make or break a match if you play your cards right.
Regieleki's offensive stats are exactly the same, so you could eschew typical sets and run Physical, or Special, or even mixed. Hell, you could run a set that can trap, spin hazards, hit hard thanks to Transistor, and then explode when its usefulness is all done.
It's definitely not going to break the meta or anything, but I feel like this Pokemon will have a strong place in UU at the end of the day. Don't underestimate it.
I think we should stop thinking of Regieleki as a screens setter, and start thinking of it as an exploding electric type cleaner on Rain teams (which are now going to be far better thanks to Pelipper dropping), or as a utility Pokemon built around team support with powerful STAB attacks. Regieleki as a Pokemon is way more flexible than you think.
Regieleki
Ability: Transistor - Transistor boosts the power of the user's Electric-type moves by 50%.
100 base Attack and Special Attack with a 50% boost to all its electric moves, Thunder doesn't miss under rain, has a high paralysis chance, and hits like an absolute truck thanks to STAB and Transistor along with its own respectable 110 base power, in addition, Regieleki's base 200 speed? Whack. Not to mention Regieleki also has a STAB and transistor boosted trapping move in Thunder Cage, and STAB Transistor boosted slowing support in Electroweb. Not to mention probably the fastest and one of the most powerful Volt Switch users in the entirety of the game for the reasons listed above. It of course has access to other Electric staples such as Thunderbolt, Wild Charge, etc.
Coverage, Different Options? If you're running Regieleki on a Rain team, presumably you'll have multiple Pokemon that can handle Ground types before Eleki even touches down on the field. You have access to Extremespeed for assured priority, along with Explosion to absolutely nuke something on the switch-in. There's a couple of additional options that I actually feel aren't being talked about much, but have specific niche uses. Acrobatics is a great move, base 110 if Regieleki isn't using an item (which given how it has access to Transistor means it won't be lacking for power) that nails Grass types like Amoonguss that resist its powerful Electric attacks. UU has also gained a great Rapid Spin user, that's right, Regieleki is the fastest Rapid Spinner in Pokemon and you now have it in UU. Reflect and Light Screen are of course still options, even if they've been neutered by the Light Clay ban. Five turns of protection can still make or break a match if you play your cards right.
Regieleki's offensive stats are exactly the same, so you could eschew typical sets and run Physical, or Special, or even mixed. Hell, you could run a set that can trap, spin hazards, hit hard thanks to Transistor, and then explode when its usefulness is all done.
It's definitely not going to break the meta or anything, but I feel like this Pokemon will have a strong place in UU at the end of the day. Don't underestimate it.
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Ima give some first impressions of this new cool mons!
Regieleki as its own entity is fine enough, it has some good traits and some people definetively are underestimatings its capabilities, at the end of the day our ground types don't have recovery and people playing around eleki can get so predictable that you can sway a bad mathup in your favor. However the fact that it basically has no coverage means that it can't fit in typical structures of VoltTurn and similars, its so incredibly outclassed that it isnt funny.
It doesnt matter if your team has plenty of options to deal with ground types, eleki is a huge matchup fish and in matchups where there is something that walls eleki it is literally dead weight. Lets take an example of eleki in a rain team against a Rhyperior, every time eleki comes into the field i can just go rhyperior without any risk because i dont need my rhyperior to check anything else, oh did u predict my switch and went barraswkeda? not like i can just go into my amoong/tang/mence or whatever i have for the feesh. "Oh but doesnt this mean that eleki is doing its job?" technically yes?, but as you noticed in the example it literally didnt do anything, eleki is a huge momentum sink unless u get every prediction right. (and even if you get that prediction u didnt gain much)
Now lets look at the same example but with Thundurus instead of eleki, I can still safely go into rhyperior as it loses to everything else but the fact that I can Knock Off or gain momentum with U-turn not only does this ease the prediction inmensely but I can actually make progress, eleki is just horrible, atrocious even if you try to use it as a replacement for thundy/raikou as an electric type pivot. Basically eleki is not worth considering as the same role of our other electrics and pls just use thundurus.
Does this mean I think eleki is actually useless? No, at the end of the day it is a matchup fish and if you can grab that matchup without AV Tang or a ground then it goes to town, also i really believe that eleki specific structures can be made like the one that Esta posted that can bait grounds to slowly whittle them down. it has a place in uu, just one that is inconsitent and a bit niche. but the threat of its electric stabs is always there.
HERE COMES THE RAIN! This is the one that I was most excited about and yes it is very cool, rain teams not having a momentum sink every time they just want to set their damn weather is obviously incredible. Right now there is a lot of talk of rain being potentially banworthy but imo thats just because everyone is spamming the new toy in the tier, rain teams can get very predictable in the way that they play as at least right now there isn't much innovation to be made and they can struggle with top mons like Washtom, Primarina, Keldeo and Tangrowth. I honestly just see this as a good playstyle that will stay in the tier, not even metagame defining, once the hype dies down it'll take the backseat.
As for Pelipper itself it can be a good mon on its own right, its defensive set while not really countering much is a good switchin to mons like Celesteela, Zydog and Zarude letting it set the rain and gain momentum for the team. Underestimating the power of this thing can be a big mistake, specs Hydro in rain just takes kills. It isnt impressive enough to let it be in teams that aren't dedicated rain but it doesnt need to be.
Funny king that 2HKO the whole tier go brrr, its just another nuclear breaker with a middling speed tier and middling defensive utility nothing that we haven't seen in here I really don't have much to say abt it cus I have barely used it but imo it fits fine enough in the tier. (but pls don't use stealth rock on this thing it legit sucks even more than nidoqueen when setting hazards)
Regieleki as its own entity is fine enough, it has some good traits and some people definetively are underestimatings its capabilities, at the end of the day our ground types don't have recovery and people playing around eleki can get so predictable that you can sway a bad mathup in your favor. However the fact that it basically has no coverage means that it can't fit in typical structures of VoltTurn and similars, its so incredibly outclassed that it isnt funny.
It doesnt matter if your team has plenty of options to deal with ground types, eleki is a huge matchup fish and in matchups where there is something that walls eleki it is literally dead weight. Lets take an example of eleki in a rain team against a Rhyperior, every time eleki comes into the field i can just go rhyperior without any risk because i dont need my rhyperior to check anything else, oh did u predict my switch and went barraswkeda? not like i can just go into my amoong/tang/mence or whatever i have for the feesh. "Oh but doesnt this mean that eleki is doing its job?" technically yes?, but as you noticed in the example it literally didnt do anything, eleki is a huge momentum sink unless u get every prediction right. (and even if you get that prediction u didnt gain much)
Now lets look at the same example but with Thundurus instead of eleki, I can still safely go into rhyperior as it loses to everything else but the fact that I can Knock Off or gain momentum with U-turn not only does this ease the prediction inmensely but I can actually make progress, eleki is just horrible, atrocious even if you try to use it as a replacement for thundy/raikou as an electric type pivot. Basically eleki is not worth considering as the same role of our other electrics and pls just use thundurus.
Does this mean I think eleki is actually useless? No, at the end of the day it is a matchup fish and if you can grab that matchup without AV Tang or a ground then it goes to town, also i really believe that eleki specific structures can be made like the one that Esta posted that can bait grounds to slowly whittle them down. it has a place in uu, just one that is inconsitent and a bit niche. but the threat of its electric stabs is always there.
HERE COMES THE RAIN! This is the one that I was most excited about and yes it is very cool, rain teams not having a momentum sink every time they just want to set their damn weather is obviously incredible. Right now there is a lot of talk of rain being potentially banworthy but imo thats just because everyone is spamming the new toy in the tier, rain teams can get very predictable in the way that they play as at least right now there isn't much innovation to be made and they can struggle with top mons like Washtom, Primarina, Keldeo and Tangrowth. I honestly just see this as a good playstyle that will stay in the tier, not even metagame defining, once the hype dies down it'll take the backseat.
As for Pelipper itself it can be a good mon on its own right, its defensive set while not really countering much is a good switchin to mons like Celesteela, Zydog and Zarude letting it set the rain and gain momentum for the team. Underestimating the power of this thing can be a big mistake, specs Hydro in rain just takes kills. It isnt impressive enough to let it be in teams that aren't dedicated rain but it doesnt need to be.
Funny king that 2HKO the whole tier go brrr, its just another nuclear breaker with a middling speed tier and middling defensive utility nothing that we haven't seen in here I really don't have much to say abt it cus I have barely used it but imo it fits fine enough in the tier. (but pls don't use stealth rock on this thing it legit sucks even more than nidoqueen when setting hazards)
been playing a little bit with the new drops, specifically rain, wanted to say what I've been enjoying most so far:
pelipper is obviously just here for rain but honestly it's surprisingly solid in its own right. it's unfortunate that even with max spdef you can't use it as keld counterplay but it's got some nice merit, it checks stuff like buzz and krook decently enough and it's a great uturn bot so that's cool. it definitely isn't very useful but it enables some very strong guys and unlike the toed it isn't complete dead weight.
keldeo in rain is a cheat code. there really is nothing defensively for this bar some really niche water absorbers, max spdef prim is close but it's so dangerously close to getting 2hkod in the rain, av tang is blown away etc. and it's fast as hell too so it's amazing how good this mon has gotten. it's also instrumental in destroying opposing rain since they pretty much have to sack one to it every time or get the turn right depending on what they're using.
yep.
helio's cool, i've always loved this mon so obviously i'm probably overrating it a bit but i've enjoyed using it on rain a lot. the speed tier + water immunity is *insanely* good for helping the matchup against opposing keldeo - even if you're dropped by secret sword it's fine because you at least have outplay room between this and pelipper. beyond that it's just a really good wallbreaker, thunder / hvoice / weather ball in rain together pops virtually everything minus av tang, even amoong doesn't really wanna take life orb hvoices and ofc thunder paras can cheese literally everything. it's niche but it's fun and i've enjoyed using it, give it a try!
(hydro pump)
lol this thing is so funny, it provides a lot w/ its zarude checking capabilities and stuff but having that move to just completely nuke nihilego, rhyperior etc into orbit never gets old. helps with the keld mu, owns the grasses, water/flying is just generally difficult to pivot around and mence shows that better than anything.
not specifically a rain mon but i saw someone post a rain team with it lol. chansey's in a great spot atm, scizor leaving was always gonna be big and mew leaving means less spikes around for it to worry about. it's an amazing help in this specially-strong meta with handling the likes of nidoking, salamence, nihilego, aegislash (teleport variants), thundies etc. so i've been fitting it on a lot more teams. it has a pretty bad case of 4mss sometimes but it can usually be made to work.
i've only played a little bit with these two. regieleki can burn in hell it's so boring but so annoying to deal with. nidoking's cool, it's very strong but very prediction reliant, it kind of needs pivot support a lot which is part of why i like tp chansey so much but stuff like rotoms and thundurus can work just fine too. neat to have another strong breaker here and maybe we can give RU nidoqueen as reparations for stealing their monkey and rock thing.
other things, aegi somehow feels a bit worse than before despite the fact that it should be better? it's still phenomenal ofc and probably #1 or #2 in the tier but idk it feels less amazing. salamence on the other hand is absolutely ridiculous rn and has lots of great sets and versatility that i think could do with some exploration. i'm enjoying reading the above posts as always, keep em coming & i hope you guys are liking the new meta - i miss scizor :( but it's nice to have some change after what was becoming a pretty stagnant, spikes-heavy tier
pelipper is obviously just here for rain but honestly it's surprisingly solid in its own right. it's unfortunate that even with max spdef you can't use it as keld counterplay but it's got some nice merit, it checks stuff like buzz and krook decently enough and it's a great uturn bot so that's cool. it definitely isn't very useful but it enables some very strong guys and unlike the toed it isn't complete dead weight.
keldeo in rain is a cheat code. there really is nothing defensively for this bar some really niche water absorbers, max spdef prim is close but it's so dangerously close to getting 2hkod in the rain, av tang is blown away etc. and it's fast as hell too so it's amazing how good this mon has gotten. it's also instrumental in destroying opposing rain since they pretty much have to sack one to it every time or get the turn right depending on what they're using.
yep.
helio's cool, i've always loved this mon so obviously i'm probably overrating it a bit but i've enjoyed using it on rain a lot. the speed tier + water immunity is *insanely* good for helping the matchup against opposing keldeo - even if you're dropped by secret sword it's fine because you at least have outplay room between this and pelipper. beyond that it's just a really good wallbreaker, thunder / hvoice / weather ball in rain together pops virtually everything minus av tang, even amoong doesn't really wanna take life orb hvoices and ofc thunder paras can cheese literally everything. it's niche but it's fun and i've enjoyed using it, give it a try!
(hydro pump)lol this thing is so funny, it provides a lot w/ its zarude checking capabilities and stuff but having that move to just completely nuke nihilego, rhyperior etc into orbit never gets old. helps with the keld mu, owns the grasses, water/flying is just generally difficult to pivot around and mence shows that better than anything.
not specifically a rain mon but i saw someone post a rain team with it lol. chansey's in a great spot atm, scizor leaving was always gonna be big and mew leaving means less spikes around for it to worry about. it's an amazing help in this specially-strong meta with handling the likes of nidoking, salamence, nihilego, aegislash (teleport variants), thundies etc. so i've been fitting it on a lot more teams. it has a pretty bad case of 4mss sometimes but it can usually be made to work.
i've only played a little bit with these two. regieleki can burn in hell it's so boring but so annoying to deal with. nidoking's cool, it's very strong but very prediction reliant, it kind of needs pivot support a lot which is part of why i like tp chansey so much but stuff like rotoms and thundurus can work just fine too. neat to have another strong breaker here and maybe we can give RU nidoqueen as reparations for stealing their monkey and rock thing.
other things, aegi somehow feels a bit worse than before despite the fact that it should be better? it's still phenomenal ofc and probably #1 or #2 in the tier but idk it feels less amazing. salamence on the other hand is absolutely ridiculous rn and has lots of great sets and versatility that i think could do with some exploration. i'm enjoying reading the above posts as always, keep em coming & i hope you guys are liking the new meta - i miss scizor :( but it's nice to have some change after what was becoming a pretty stagnant, spikes-heavy tier
Gonna echo the general sentiment of rain being a great playstyle, as the mere addition of a slow U-turn in my opinion significantly changes the dynamics. As it becomes easier to bring in your rain sweeper, the opponent now has to think more carefully what mon to send out and not be too reckless in their switching. As expected, more people have started to lead with Electrics (Rotom-W, Thundurus) and Rocks (Lycanroc-D, Nihilego), the latter being happily exploited by a Barraskewda lead.
I will just drop a preliminary team here that I have been using so far (good enough to get suspect reqs). Thundurus-T is important because it provides a Volt immunity and can abuse Thunder, while a Grass provides good defensive synergy. Last 2 mons are kind of a toss-up; I choose to go with Kingdra as it hits very hard on the special side, whereas Crawdaunt helps in fighting against stall. Alternatively, there are Seismitoad, Mantine, and Ludiculo, all of them equally viable under rain, as well as other UU waters like Keldeo that are still just as, if not more, devastating.
Enjoy the new meta!
Hey there. I have not posted here since about 1 month and a half, I guess this is the right time to put things right.. right ?
1. Pelipper and to a further extend, Rain as a whole
It's kinda insane to see that even tho Rain team was doable a week ago, it definitively wasn't as good as it is right now and all in all this is due to one thing : Pelipper. Pelipper is better than Politoed in basically every fucking aspect even with its weakness to Stealth Rock. Being able to heal itself with Roost, act as a support for the team with Defog, having a powerful STAB with 100% accuracy under rain which can pressure Grass-types aka Hurricane and the fact that it can pivot with U-turn and even bother some opposing Pokémon with Knock Off allow Pelipper to be a straight-up upgrade to Politoed in Rain Teams. Since the shifts I've seen quite a lot of Rain teams on the ladder and while I'm not fully sure the archetype is problematic right now, I can definitively see it being a nuisance once people will add the best abusers possible. Talking about Pokémon in UU which are able to enjoy rain.. sheeeeesh we have a shit ton of them ! I've been using the following ones..
Keldeo has already been brought on the table by a couple of people but god damn this Pokémon is just stupid as fuck under Rain. Specs Keldeo under Rain is really fucking tough to handle and I've seen people running things like King Shield Aegislash + Water-type resistance like spe def Amoonguss (yeah that sounds bad on paper but it can actually ""check"" Specs Keldeo). But yeah overall I think Keldeo is one of the best (if not the best) abuser under Rain thanks to its natural bulk and Fighting-type + Secret Sword which allows it to pressure things like Chansey which can otherwise eats quite nicely Specs Hydro Pump. Not gonna talk here about Regieleki, I'll focus on it later on this post. Rotom-Wash is a fun Pokémon under Rain, not the best for sure but a useful pivot, same applies for Salamence with Hydro Pump which is cool but I do prefer Kingdra over it overall even tho Intimidate is insanely great. Talking about Kingdra I've been using it and it's pretty nice, Hurricane coverage is as good as you would expect and allows it to pressure Amoonguss or AV Tangrowth pretty effectively. The fact that it's a Swift Swim user has been in my opinion more valuable than Salamence. Both Thundurus-I and Thundurus-T are scary af under Rain thanks to Weather Ball and coverage such as Psychic to rekt Amoonguss. I'm leaning toward Thundy-I due to its better speedtier which allows it to actually revenge kill Keldeo which is fucking huge in the current meta. Barraskewda is imo a staple for Rain and even tho it kinda struggle to beat Grass-types (even with Psychic Fangs vs Guss), it's overall a powerful pivot for Rain teams which is really useful considering you really don't want to lose momentum with those teams. Seismitoed may look weird, I found it kinda nice due to its access to Stealth Rock + Swift Swim and its movepool which allows it to be played either physical or special.
I'm really looking forward to see if Rain gonna be an issue for us with Pelipper but it's definitively better than before the shifts (and I don't think it's only a trend).
2. Dancing Regi and Nidoking
I know some people don't think Regieleki is that good but I found it pretty fun to use overall. Obviously it's still fucked up by Ground-types but otherwise I like it a lot. I've only been using a Heavy-Duty Boots set with Rapid Spin in order to deal with Entry Hazards in my Rain team and it's speedtier gives it a niche on its own. Being able to revenge kill things like Salamence/Gyarados after a DD, Celesteela after an Autotomize even with a Modest Nature is in my opinion really valuable and provides it a decent niche. On Rain teams, it kinda shines once Ground-types are gone (which isn't the hardest thing to pressure in this team if you're playing well) and can abuse its Transistor boosted Thunder. Also, Thunder Cage is a meme move but it's fun to abuse so give it a try lol. On the other hand, I found Nidoking pretty hard to play with due to its meh speed tier, I don't really know how to feel about it, yeah it's a powerhouse which can pressure a shit ton of 'mons but eh maybe I'm not using the good sets (SR + 3 attacks and Sub + 3 attacks) so I'm just waiting to see how people are going to make it shine !
3. S(mew) and S-(cizor) gone, uh
Mew and Scizor rising is obviously a huge change for the tier, I'm trully looking forward to see how the metagame gonna change but I can definitively see some Pokémon which were weak to Scizor make their return. I trully think things like Mimikyu are gonna be pretty nice to use in HO while Tapu Bulu, Gardevoir and Togekiss could be use more in more balanced builds. Can't wait to see how things are going to look like in a couple of weeks.
On this, I return to my hibernation :palico:
1. Pelipper and to a further extend, Rain as a whole
It's kinda insane to see that even tho Rain team was doable a week ago, it definitively wasn't as good as it is right now and all in all this is due to one thing : Pelipper. Pelipper is better than Politoed in basically every fucking aspect even with its weakness to Stealth Rock. Being able to heal itself with Roost, act as a support for the team with Defog, having a powerful STAB with 100% accuracy under rain which can pressure Grass-types aka Hurricane and the fact that it can pivot with U-turn and even bother some opposing Pokémon with Knock Off allow Pelipper to be a straight-up upgrade to Politoed in Rain Teams. Since the shifts I've seen quite a lot of Rain teams on the ladder and while I'm not fully sure the archetype is problematic right now, I can definitively see it being a nuisance once people will add the best abusers possible. Talking about Pokémon in UU which are able to enjoy rain.. sheeeeesh we have a shit ton of them ! I've been using the following ones..
Keldeo has already been brought on the table by a couple of people but god damn this Pokémon is just stupid as fuck under Rain. Specs Keldeo under Rain is really fucking tough to handle and I've seen people running things like King Shield Aegislash + Water-type resistance like spe def Amoonguss (yeah that sounds bad on paper but it can actually ""check"" Specs Keldeo). But yeah overall I think Keldeo is one of the best (if not the best) abuser under Rain thanks to its natural bulk and Fighting-type + Secret Sword which allows it to pressure things like Chansey which can otherwise eats quite nicely Specs Hydro Pump. Not gonna talk here about Regieleki, I'll focus on it later on this post. Rotom-Wash is a fun Pokémon under Rain, not the best for sure but a useful pivot, same applies for Salamence with Hydro Pump which is cool but I do prefer Kingdra over it overall even tho Intimidate is insanely great. Talking about Kingdra I've been using it and it's pretty nice, Hurricane coverage is as good as you would expect and allows it to pressure Amoonguss or AV Tangrowth pretty effectively. The fact that it's a Swift Swim user has been in my opinion more valuable than Salamence. Both Thundurus-I and Thundurus-T are scary af under Rain thanks to Weather Ball and coverage such as Psychic to rekt Amoonguss. I'm leaning toward Thundy-I due to its better speedtier which allows it to actually revenge kill Keldeo which is fucking huge in the current meta. Barraskewda is imo a staple for Rain and even tho it kinda struggle to beat Grass-types (even with Psychic Fangs vs Guss), it's overall a powerful pivot for Rain teams which is really useful considering you really don't want to lose momentum with those teams. Seismitoed may look weird, I found it kinda nice due to its access to Stealth Rock + Swift Swim and its movepool which allows it to be played either physical or special.
I'm really looking forward to see if Rain gonna be an issue for us with Pelipper but it's definitively better than before the shifts (and I don't think it's only a trend).
2. Dancing Regi and Nidoking
I know some people don't think Regieleki is that good but I found it pretty fun to use overall. Obviously it's still fucked up by Ground-types but otherwise I like it a lot. I've only been using a Heavy-Duty Boots set with Rapid Spin in order to deal with Entry Hazards in my Rain team and it's speedtier gives it a niche on its own. Being able to revenge kill things like Salamence/Gyarados after a DD, Celesteela after an Autotomize even with a Modest Nature is in my opinion really valuable and provides it a decent niche. On Rain teams, it kinda shines once Ground-types are gone (which isn't the hardest thing to pressure in this team if you're playing well) and can abuse its Transistor boosted Thunder. Also, Thunder Cage is a meme move but it's fun to abuse so give it a try lol. On the other hand, I found Nidoking pretty hard to play with due to its meh speed tier, I don't really know how to feel about it, yeah it's a powerhouse which can pressure a shit ton of 'mons but eh maybe I'm not using the good sets (SR + 3 attacks and Sub + 3 attacks) so I'm just waiting to see how people are going to make it shine !
3. S(mew) and S-(cizor) gone, uh
Mew and Scizor rising is obviously a huge change for the tier, I'm trully looking forward to see how the metagame gonna change but I can definitively see some Pokémon which were weak to Scizor make their return. I trully think things like Mimikyu are gonna be pretty nice to use in HO while Tapu Bulu, Gardevoir and Togekiss could be use more in more balanced builds. Can't wait to see how things are going to look like in a couple of weeks.
On this, I return to my hibernation :palico:
Talking about Jellicent here because I feel like it has a niche in this meta
The more and more I play the more and more I get frustrated fighting rain. This is probably one of the best rain counters out there. Water immunity, fighting immunity, is just deadly. This is the set I've been using.
Jellicent @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 24 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover
This lives 2 Zygarde-10% thousand arrows, and outspeeds Celesteela making it an easy 1v1 with Taunt. You could do Colbur but I feel like it beats Rain, and fighters, none of them using Knock Off besides Conkeldurr. I found boots eased calcs because it can eat a lot of clutch hits as its bulk is quite good. Hex is also an option but I personally like the super effectiveness against Nidoking as it can beat Timid 1v1 due to boots and the spdef. In fact it might be better.
Edit: Strength Sap is an option.
The more and more I play the more and more I get frustrated fighting rain. This is probably one of the best rain counters out there. Water immunity, fighting immunity, is just deadly. This is the set I've been using.
Jellicent @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 24 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover
This lives 2 Zygarde-10% thousand arrows, and outspeeds Celesteela making it an easy 1v1 with Taunt. You could do Colbur but I feel like it beats Rain, and fighters, none of them using Knock Off besides Conkeldurr. I found boots eased calcs because it can eat a lot of clutch hits as its bulk is quite good. Hex is also an option but I personally like the super effectiveness against Nidoking as it can beat Timid 1v1 due to boots and the spdef. In fact it might be better.
Edit: Strength Sap is an option.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Jellicent: 136-160 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Jellicent: 121-144 (30 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Salamence Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Jellicent: 150-177 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Jellicent: 169-201 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Jellicent: 163-193 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Jellicent: 121-144 (30 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Salamence Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Jellicent: 150-177 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Jellicent: 169-201 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Jellicent: 163-193 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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so about this
Had been meaning to write a post about this for a while, but I wanted to shine a light on what's a really cool Pokemon to mess with atm, provided you use the right set for it.
Regieleki @ Leftovers
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Thunder Cage
- Volt Switch
Normally when you think of Regieleki right now, you just see it as some huge matchup fish that relies on pulling matchups without Grounds, or where you can somehow remove the Ground, which is unrealistic most of the time cause the opponent will make sure to keep it around for Eleki. Substitute + Protect + Thunder Cage Regieleki is actually fairly consistent despite this, mainly thanks to some of the really cool options we have to get the Grounds statused, such as Toxic Flame Body Moltres and trying to position Toxic Spikes well alongside Regieleki to force awkward situations where Regieleki can be able to claim a trapping kill despite a Tspikes absorber, or fforce the ground type to become Poisoned.
Thunder Cage is what really makes Regieleki quite dangerous in these situations, not only does Regieleki just SubTect stall out Toxic damage versus opponents like Rhyperior, but it can easily win 1v1's versus otherwise would be checks like Amoonguss and AV Tangrowth, or at least force far more damage than they can safely heal with Regenerator, by stalling out Thunder Cage's trapping damage. This becomes even more deadly with status such as Burn thrown in the mix.
When able to circumvent some of its issues, Regieleki becomes a really cool option thanks to its blistering speed above even scarfers like Mienshao, pivoting options, and ability to trap and either remove or cripple key targets.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379366557 - Match from Cosmic PL, this is a really cool example of a matchup where Regieleki cleanly deals with both Rhyperior and AV Tangrowth.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379695491-mbb367ho8vjtmos8k0z6z2pq5uo2esmpw - Ladder example that also shows Regieleki go absolutely ham once Krook gets statused, Reigeleki's blazing speed is huge here since its faster than the Scarf Shao.
Some examples of how the team in question that I used here supports the Regieleki: Toxic + Flame Body Moltres easily Toxic's Rhyperior and Gastrodon, can Burn Krookodile with Flame Body. AV Glowbro can trade with Nidos, and force a lot of chip onto Krook. Toxic Spikes Tentacruel can be used even in matchups versus Amoonguss or Nihilego as mentioned before if positioned well, this is easier with Nihilego as it struggles to switch into most of the team except Moltres, but Amoonguss can also be put into positions where it either has to come in and absorb as you lay down another layer, or you can put it into positions where it can't switch into Moltres to absorb safely or gets trapped bby Eleki trying to absorb. Lastly Knock + Scald Seismitoad gets Scald burns on targets like Amoonguss to aid the 1v1s, and can Knock Off Tang/Amoong's Av/sludge too.
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mystical Fire
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost
On the topic of the Moltres set I brought up, this is in general a really cool option in the current metagame and something I typically prefer compared to offensive Moltres a decent amount. Combination of U-turn + Toxic really punishes a lot of its standard checks like Rhyperior, Nihilego etc and supports a lot of teammates really nicely, pairs wonderfully with wallbreakers that take advantage of stuf like this like Keldeo. Mystical Fire is also such a great tool that makes every single move Moltres can click in most situations able to provide some level of benefit to you, as Pokemon like Nihilego and Primarina become much easier to switch into at -1 spa. In general I love this Moltres set rn as just a general pivot + check to Pokemon like Buzzwole and Zarude, as its just so great at supporting your team with all its utility and secondary effects.
Regieleki @ Leftovers
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Thunder Cage
- Volt Switch
Normally when you think of Regieleki right now, you just see it as some huge matchup fish that relies on pulling matchups without Grounds, or where you can somehow remove the Ground, which is unrealistic most of the time cause the opponent will make sure to keep it around for Eleki. Substitute + Protect + Thunder Cage Regieleki is actually fairly consistent despite this, mainly thanks to some of the really cool options we have to get the Grounds statused, such as Toxic Flame Body Moltres and trying to position Toxic Spikes well alongside Regieleki to force awkward situations where Regieleki can be able to claim a trapping kill despite a Tspikes absorber, or fforce the ground type to become Poisoned.
Thunder Cage is what really makes Regieleki quite dangerous in these situations, not only does Regieleki just SubTect stall out Toxic damage versus opponents like Rhyperior, but it can easily win 1v1's versus otherwise would be checks like Amoonguss and AV Tangrowth, or at least force far more damage than they can safely heal with Regenerator, by stalling out Thunder Cage's trapping damage. This becomes even more deadly with status such as Burn thrown in the mix.
When able to circumvent some of its issues, Regieleki becomes a really cool option thanks to its blistering speed above even scarfers like Mienshao, pivoting options, and ability to trap and either remove or cripple key targets.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379366557 - Match from Cosmic PL, this is a really cool example of a matchup where Regieleki cleanly deals with both Rhyperior and AV Tangrowth.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379695491-mbb367ho8vjtmos8k0z6z2pq5uo2esmpw - Ladder example that also shows Regieleki go absolutely ham once Krook gets statused, Reigeleki's blazing speed is huge here since its faster than the Scarf Shao.
Some examples of how the team in question that I used here supports the Regieleki: Toxic + Flame Body Moltres easily Toxic's Rhyperior and Gastrodon, can Burn Krookodile with Flame Body. AV Glowbro can trade with Nidos, and force a lot of chip onto Krook. Toxic Spikes Tentacruel can be used even in matchups versus Amoonguss or Nihilego as mentioned before if positioned well, this is easier with Nihilego as it struggles to switch into most of the team except Moltres, but Amoonguss can also be put into positions where it either has to come in and absorb as you lay down another layer, or you can put it into positions where it can't switch into Moltres to absorb safely or gets trapped bby Eleki trying to absorb. Lastly Knock + Scald Seismitoad gets Scald burns on targets like Amoonguss to aid the 1v1s, and can Knock Off Tang/Amoong's Av/sludge too.
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mystical Fire
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost
On the topic of the Moltres set I brought up, this is in general a really cool option in the current metagame and something I typically prefer compared to offensive Moltres a decent amount. Combination of U-turn + Toxic really punishes a lot of its standard checks like Rhyperior, Nihilego etc and supports a lot of teammates really nicely, pairs wonderfully with wallbreakers that take advantage of stuf like this like Keldeo. Mystical Fire is also such a great tool that makes every single move Moltres can click in most situations able to provide some level of benefit to you, as Pokemon like Nihilego and Primarina become much easier to switch into at -1 spa. In general I love this Moltres set rn as just a general pivot + check to Pokemon like Buzzwole and Zarude, as its just so great at supporting your team with all its utility and secondary effects.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
I was in the middle of drafting a post on Gyarados and why it should be banned but I ran out of energy to do complete it so I end the post abruptly, I really hope this is seriously considered and will put more effort in posting if this starts to go somewhere.
A couple things I'd like suspect tested: Gyarados, Aegislash and Pelipper. I understand Aegislash and Pelipper are known in the discourse (few people agree with me they are broken but at least people thought about potential suspects) so I wanted to post about Gyarados since it doesn't have much attention as a broken Pokemon.
The coverage, power and speed tier after a boost is frankly ridiculous. It simply sweeps almost the entire tier after a boost and it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame as well. Let me list the counterplay to Gyarados and tell you why it's not sufficient:
That wouldn't be an issue IF Gyarados was just a decently average power threat. But it's far stronger than average, being able to beat almost every Pokemon after a DD boost and if it gets a Moxie boost on top of that, it just snowballs uncontrollably.
Some common threats that Gyarados outspeeds and OHKOs or otherwise beats after a DD:
Rotom W
Salamence
Keldeo
Primarina
Krookodile
Azumarill
Thunduruss
Nihilego
Rhyperior
All of these Pokemon are A rank or higher in viability. The quality of the enormous list Gyarados beats is significantly higher than the unreliable and generally slightly subpar counterplay to Gyarados.
One more point - this Pokemon is just so game breakingly cheesey. Idk if KM agrees with me but he has some private replays respectfully ask him to share of him guzzling teams with Gyarados after a single turn of set up.
Our metagame is slow enough where Gyarados frequently outspeeds entire teams after a single boost and the ability to OHKO/win vs most of the tier after DD and the vast majority of the tier after DD+Moxie make me think Gyarados is very broken and needs a test.
TLDR: Gyarados is broken because 1) the counterplay it has is overwhelmingly worse than the many things it beats and 2) the metagame is slow and frail enough for its DD set to be a stupidly game breaking cheesey sweeper.
A couple things I'd like suspect tested: Gyarados, Aegislash and Pelipper. I understand Aegislash and Pelipper are known in the discourse (few people agree with me they are broken but at least people thought about potential suspects) so I wanted to post about Gyarados since it doesn't have much attention as a broken Pokemon.
The coverage, power and speed tier after a boost is frankly ridiculous. It simply sweeps almost the entire tier after a boost and it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame as well. Let me list the counterplay to Gyarados and tell you why it's not sufficient:
- Accelrock on Lycanroc - yes this almost guarantees you won't get swept by Gyarados but Lycanroc is extremely difficult to fit on non offense teams, plus it only allows you to revenge
- Physically defensive Umbreon - a great Pokemon but it has almost the opposite problem of Lycanroc, it only fits on stalls and defensive balances. Not at all a splashable Pokemon
- Grass types - practically all of them get destroyed by +1 Bounce - Amoonguss, Zarude, the god Tapu Bulu, and AV Tangrowth all can get OHKOd with just SR (or no SR at all for some). Only Physically defensive Tangrowth and protect versions of these Pokemon stand a chance.
- Amoonguss and Zarude cannot run protect on their optimal sets. Bulu can run it but becomes more passive and so only physically defensive Tangrowth can run it without serious drawbacks.
- Regieleki - same boat as Lycanroc except it's even harder to fit on teams since it needs heavy support to combat the nearly ubiquitous ground types. It’s in the C ranks.
- Faster Scarfers - Zarude, Krookodile and Salamence have been using scarf less and less recently.
- Salamence with scarf was at only 2% usage on 1760 glicko (not Elo) stats in May and didn't even register on the stats in June
- Zarude with scarf - more common but overall inferior set to Heavy Duty Boots
That wouldn't be an issue IF Gyarados was just a decently average power threat. But it's far stronger than average, being able to beat almost every Pokemon after a DD boost and if it gets a Moxie boost on top of that, it just snowballs uncontrollably.
Some common threats that Gyarados outspeeds and OHKOs or otherwise beats after a DD:
Rotom W
Salamence
Keldeo
Primarina
Krookodile
Azumarill
Thunduruss
Nihilego
Rhyperior
All of these Pokemon are A rank or higher in viability. The quality of the enormous list Gyarados beats is significantly higher than the unreliable and generally slightly subpar counterplay to Gyarados.
One more point - this Pokemon is just so game breakingly cheesey. Idk if KM agrees with me but he has some private replays respectfully ask him to share of him guzzling teams with Gyarados after a single turn of set up.
Our metagame is slow enough where Gyarados frequently outspeeds entire teams after a single boost and the ability to OHKO/win vs most of the tier after DD and the vast majority of the tier after DD+Moxie make me think Gyarados is very broken and needs a test.
TLDR: Gyarados is broken because 1) the counterplay it has is overwhelmingly worse than the many things it beats and 2) the metagame is slow and frail enough for its DD set to be a stupidly game breaking cheesey sweeper.
I personally disagree that the metagame is so slow that a Pokemon like Gyarados takes advantage of it easily. If anything I think that would just come down to building preference whether people want to run Choice Scarf users or just rely on something like Thundurus as Speed control. There really isn't much in the tier where it just gets to set up a Dragon Dance without being punished by a strong neutral hit because it has a middling Speed tier to begin with. The most passive and common walls it really gets to do this against are Tangrowth and Jirachi, though the latter can easily consider running Thunder with how popular rain is. Everything else has the means to chunk it unless Choice-locked into an unideal move. I think it's a bit unfair to only focus on how Gyarados beats almost everything at +1 and not mention anything about how it can struggle to actually get that DD off for free without some form of punishment being inflicted in return. Usually bringing it into range of other priority users like Entei and Diggersby for example.
You listed a few Choice Scarf users that have fallen off, which I agree with, but I feel there are still a few others to consider:
Jirachi is pretty flexible in that last slot to run coverage to ease whatever is needed. Thunder Punch can nail Gyarados while giving coverage for Keldeo or you can just Trick and lock it into Waterfall. Choice Scarf Rotom-W is faster than +1 Gyara and will always revenge with Volt Switch. Mienshao requires some chip to KO with Stone Edge but it's a splashable scarfer for sure.
I do agree Gyarados doesn't have really any hard counter besides Umbreon doing its thing but even at +1 Gyarados fails to KO foes like Amoonguss, Chansey, Aegislash, Salamence, and Celesteela. They all then have the means to retaliate back or cripple it with status. Salamence can also Intimidate shuffle if Gyarados lacks Ice Fang. If it is dropping Bounce then it isn't reliably getting through Buzzwole. Waterfall does make some of this shaky with flinches I will admit, which might be a big reason for your argument with calling it 'cheesy' though I never saw it mentioned specifically anywhere.
I am not an avid balance or stall player so perhaps I am not seeing this argument from enough perspectives but I can't really agree this tier is slow. I personally don't see how Gyarados is any harder to deal with than DD Salamence other than stall not being able to wall Gyarados with Quagsire. Salamence is just as scary of a DD user imo with how garbage the Fairy Pokemon in this tier are defensively without max investment. If people don't want to run a Choice Scarf user faster that can revenge these DD users then you at the very least need Lycanroc-D or do a good job keeping your defensive core healthy enough to revenge/cripple them. This is all just my opinion and it's obviously going to vary between users depending on how you build, because with what I play and how I build I am content with not having a hard response to them if I can limit their ability to set up or auto win.
As for Aegislash and Pelipper, I personally don't have an issue with either. I think the tier is pretty stable and fun right now. Lilburr free Victini though.
You listed a few Choice Scarf users that have fallen off, which I agree with, but I feel there are still a few others to consider:
Jirachi is pretty flexible in that last slot to run coverage to ease whatever is needed. Thunder Punch can nail Gyarados while giving coverage for Keldeo or you can just Trick and lock it into Waterfall. Choice Scarf Rotom-W is faster than +1 Gyara and will always revenge with Volt Switch. Mienshao requires some chip to KO with Stone Edge but it's a splashable scarfer for sure.
I do agree Gyarados doesn't have really any hard counter besides Umbreon doing its thing but even at +1 Gyarados fails to KO foes like Amoonguss, Chansey, Aegislash, Salamence, and Celesteela. They all then have the means to retaliate back or cripple it with status. Salamence can also Intimidate shuffle if Gyarados lacks Ice Fang. If it is dropping Bounce then it isn't reliably getting through Buzzwole. Waterfall does make some of this shaky with flinches I will admit, which might be a big reason for your argument with calling it 'cheesy' though I never saw it mentioned specifically anywhere.
I am not an avid balance or stall player so perhaps I am not seeing this argument from enough perspectives but I can't really agree this tier is slow. I personally don't see how Gyarados is any harder to deal with than DD Salamence other than stall not being able to wall Gyarados with Quagsire. Salamence is just as scary of a DD user imo with how garbage the Fairy Pokemon in this tier are defensively without max investment. If people don't want to run a Choice Scarf user faster that can revenge these DD users then you at the very least need Lycanroc-D or do a good job keeping your defensive core healthy enough to revenge/cripple them. This is all just my opinion and it's obviously going to vary between users depending on how you build, because with what I play and how I build I am content with not having a hard response to them if I can limit their ability to set up or auto win.
As for Aegislash and Pelipper, I personally don't have an issue with either. I think the tier is pretty stable and fun right now. Lilburr free Victini though.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Twilight
Agree with your point on there being other viable scarfers and to be fair, I’d add Nihilego as well. I didn’t mean to imply my list was complete. I still think they are all subpar except arguably Mienshao; I.e, scarf is not their best set and they run this suboptimal set almost solely because Gyarados.
The 20% Waterfall flinch I didn’t mention, but let’s be clear, things exist even if I don’t mention them. Agree with you that’s partly what I meant by cheesey, making would be checks (like Chansey) extremely unreliable.
My main point of posting this is responding to your Salamence comparison which is a very natural point to make: Salamence after a DD cannot beat Primarina nor Hatterene nor Celesteela nor Azumarill nor Rhyperior and struggles more vs Krookodile and is revenged by an extra priority user, Mamoswine.
I’m beginning to see a point you touched on, regarding these mons are generally slower and mainly seen as balance mons. But my point stands: the things that beat Gyarados are pretty bad while these things that beat Salamence I listed are all pretty good mons.
Briefly responding to your point on set up opportunities; you’re right, I definitely didn’t present a complete argument because that needs to factor in set up opportunities. Two points I’ll make: 1) you do have set up chances on common good Pokemon like Keldeo and Moltres and 2) I’d remphasize that I see Gyarados like Slurpuff in terms of set up payoff - all it takes is one turn for a stupid sweep.
Agree with your point on there being other viable scarfers and to be fair, I’d add Nihilego as well. I didn’t mean to imply my list was complete. I still think they are all subpar except arguably Mienshao; I.e, scarf is not their best set and they run this suboptimal set almost solely because Gyarados.
The 20% Waterfall flinch I didn’t mention, but let’s be clear, things exist even if I don’t mention them. Agree with you that’s partly what I meant by cheesey, making would be checks (like Chansey) extremely unreliable.
My main point of posting this is responding to your Salamence comparison which is a very natural point to make: Salamence after a DD cannot beat Primarina nor Hatterene nor Celesteela nor Azumarill nor Rhyperior and struggles more vs Krookodile and is revenged by an extra priority user, Mamoswine.
I’m beginning to see a point you touched on, regarding these mons are generally slower and mainly seen as balance mons. But my point stands: the things that beat Gyarados are pretty bad while these things that beat Salamence I listed are all pretty good mons.
Briefly responding to your point on set up opportunities; you’re right, I definitely didn’t present a complete argument because that needs to factor in set up opportunities. Two points I’ll make: 1) you do have set up chances on common good Pokemon like Keldeo and Moltres and 2) I’d remphasize that I see Gyarados like Slurpuff in terms of set up payoff - all it takes is one turn for a stupid sweep.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Please consider suspecting Rain
Frankly just so there's a record of someone asking for it and perhaps people will agree with me if I post: please ban Pelipper or nerf rain somehow (I'm rather uninterested in the legitimate but tiring discussions on banning Drizzle/Damp Rock/Pelipper etc.)
I hate how fishy it can be in games such as this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1394859113
Normal rain counters like Amoonguss and Rotom-W which theoretically should give me a good MU vs rain falter to stupid rain sweepers that don't care about them - Kingdra bypasses both with Hurricane/Draco Meteor and Omastar of all things showed how powerful it can be with Meteor Beam granting a powerful coverage move vs nearly all Water resists.
I used to say Rain balance was the thing tipping it over but games like this make me want to elaborate to say it's not just Rain balance, it's the incredibly diverse amount of sweepers that Rain can run and you're just hoping your selected rain counter measure doesn't get blown back by the wrong sweeper.
Frankly just so there's a record of someone asking for it and perhaps people will agree with me if I post: please ban Pelipper or nerf rain somehow (I'm rather uninterested in the legitimate but tiring discussions on banning Drizzle/Damp Rock/Pelipper etc.)
I hate how fishy it can be in games such as this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1394859113
Normal rain counters like Amoonguss and Rotom-W which theoretically should give me a good MU vs rain falter to stupid rain sweepers that don't care about them - Kingdra bypasses both with Hurricane/Draco Meteor and Omastar of all things showed how powerful it can be with Meteor Beam granting a powerful coverage move vs nearly all Water resists.
I used to say Rain balance was the thing tipping it over but games like this make me want to elaborate to say it's not just Rain balance, it's the incredibly diverse amount of sweepers that Rain can run and you're just hoping your selected rain counter measure doesn't get blown back by the wrong sweeper.
Absolutely agree with pokemonisfun's post. While I have a reputation for spamming fatter Umbreon Tangrowth builds atm, Ive typically found that these builds that can actually afford the combo of like Phys Def Tang + something like a Starmie/Prim are typically when I find myself most comfortable versus Rain. The phys def tang + starmie combo especially is really great versus rain, AV tang structures often get overwhelmed and can't rly handle daunt/azu that well, but relegating keldeo duties to starmie really opens you up on this front, and starmie is just generally a nice mon versus offensive stuff like lycan too atm and a solid remover. Even still, something like the Omastar that Pif mentioned would just utterly destroy a build that relies on dealing with rain this way if given a single set up opportunity.
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie in Rain: 309-365 (95.3 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
The issue's i usually find are when I venture out of the realm of the really fat builds, and I just find that building with other Grass types, but especially Zarude, you just flat out can't get good Rain matchups, like structures like Zarude + Rotom-W just fall completely flat into Skewda etc and usually have you having to play absolutely perfectly to stand a chance, while Zarude + Seismitoad can cover threats like Barraskewda but fall completely flat to Kingdra while still having that natural keldeo vulnerability. Again like Pif says amoonguss has issues with things like Kingdra too, but its also just much more vulnerable to being broken through by Keldeo / Skewda etc than tang would be too.
I personally find that while Rain can be a bit hit and miss in terms of matchups like i describe above and that pif mentions, it's really too limiting towards offensive builds through skewda forcing stuff like helmet grasses (ie. not zarude, while av tang doesn't rly actually actively wear it down) / water immunities (not exactly spoilt for splashable choice, toad is p decent tho but then you come into the kingdra rain shit), or you as a player just accepting an impossible matchup with stuff like zarude/washtom, and has too much room for more uncommon options that can be extremely punishing like Kingdra, Omastar, Mantine etc that can shred through standard counterplay, while not leaving much room to outplay these matchups if the rain user plays to an acceptable level.
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie in Rain: 309-365 (95.3 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
The issue's i usually find are when I venture out of the realm of the really fat builds, and I just find that building with other Grass types, but especially Zarude, you just flat out can't get good Rain matchups, like structures like Zarude + Rotom-W just fall completely flat into Skewda etc and usually have you having to play absolutely perfectly to stand a chance, while Zarude + Seismitoad can cover threats like Barraskewda but fall completely flat to Kingdra while still having that natural keldeo vulnerability. Again like Pif says amoonguss has issues with things like Kingdra too, but its also just much more vulnerable to being broken through by Keldeo / Skewda etc than tang would be too.
I personally find that while Rain can be a bit hit and miss in terms of matchups like i describe above and that pif mentions, it's really too limiting towards offensive builds through skewda forcing stuff like helmet grasses (ie. not zarude, while av tang doesn't rly actually actively wear it down) / water immunities (not exactly spoilt for splashable choice, toad is p decent tho but then you come into the kingdra rain shit), or you as a player just accepting an impossible matchup with stuff like zarude/washtom, and has too much room for more uncommon options that can be extremely punishing like Kingdra, Omastar, Mantine etc that can shred through standard counterplay, while not leaving much room to outplay these matchups if the rain user plays to an acceptable level.
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- Status