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np: Stage 3-3 - Maybe we should have used that warp pipe back in 1-1 after all...
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
No, I'm fairly certain it has to do with those other two typings(dragon and grass, respectively) that allow them to make use of the rain. Yes, the rain doubles their speed, but they would just be another average swift swimmer without STAB dragon/grass.
I agree Abomasnow usage should rise, but the idea about switching Tyranitar into Manaphy is that you do it on the turn it's going to Rest. If an offensive Plotter without Rest, you're never going to switch Tyranitar into it.
I was talking about swift swimmers in general. I was just using ludicolo and kingdra as examples. The reason swift swimmers as a group are so difficult for most offensive teams to handle is their speed. You can't revenge them until the rain runs out
Manaphy is worse INSIDE of rain teams than it is OUTSIDE of rain teams. Rain teams require strong, quick hitters. Manaphy is a slow bulky sweeper. If you really want to use Manaphy in rain,it should be setting it up for itself. His Tail Glow / Sub Tail Glow / most CM sets work fine without rain. Also, its special move pool is just fine as well. Grass Knot should never be used as it doesn't do anything to opposing Manaphys. Most Manaphy's use a mix of Surf with Ice Beam / Energy Ball / HP Electric.
In my personal opinion, Manaphy isn't broken. Heck, Mence and Latias are more broken than Manaphy. But they're not likely going anywhere soon. I'm a bit undecided on Manaphy, but more leaning to OU. It doesn't seem broken, but it is definitely a strong pokemon in this metagame.
No, Manaphy will do much better in rain.
Also, it is true that manaphy is bulky but I wouldn't say it's slow as base speed 100 can outspeed quite a large proportion of the metagame. Grass Knot is quite nice against Swampert (who can be a pain in the ass if not) and some other water types. Gyara will be troublesome to those without HP-electric however.
Swampert won't like taking +2 Surfs anyway (It takes 69.80% - 82.43% from a Timid Manaphy at +2). If you're really paranoid about it, you could use Energy Ball, it hits other Manaphy the hardest, and you can hit other stuff like Vaporeon and Lanturn.
Manaphy is best used in rain actually. Then you can abuse Hydration, which itself is a marvelous ability. Although it seems better without rain, status problems can always ruin Manaphy's day until it starts raining. The problem with Manaphy setting rain up itself means it loses coverage, leaving Tail Glow, Surf plus one more move. The coverage is not as great and Manaphy may then be forced to switch out of something it could normally take down.
Energy Ball is best for the lighter Water types. However, HP Electric would generally be a better option in my opinion.
I believe Manaphy is great in rain, although it relies on its own rain because the rain that its team could provide will not do it any good for very long. By the time it has set up the rain will be gone. So yes it is good in the rain, but that does not mean it should be in a rain team. Also, Energy Ball would be the best choice in this metagame to hit other Manaphy and Vaporeon, but HP Electric can hit them for slightly less as well as killing Gyara. Swampert isn't much of a threat to Manaphy so it can be killed by Surf as others have said. GK seems to be "other options" material for Manaphy.
I think you're missing shadowalone's point. Of course Manaphy is better when it's raining, but Rain Dance teams have much better options for sweepers in Kingdra and Ludicolo. Omastar and Gorebyss are better options aswell because they have their speed boosted in the rain and Manaphy doesn't (base 100 speed is just too average). Rain Dance teams don't have room for Manaphy.
Actually:
Timid +2 Energy Ball on 188 / 0 Bold Vaporeon:598 Atk vs 216 Def & 448 HP (80 Base Power): 318 - 376 (70.98% - 83.93%)
Timid +2 HP Electric on 188 / 0 Bold Vaporeon: 598 Atk vs 216 Def & 448 HP (70 Base Power): 278 - 328 (62.05% - 73.21%)
Both fail to OHKO, even with Stealth Rock. They both, however, 2HKO. With LO, the latter still has a 46.15% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock.
Timid +2 Energy Ball on 252 / 0 Bold Manaphy: 596 Atk vs 236 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 290 - 342 (71.78% - 84.65%)
Timid +2 HP Electric on 252 / 0 Bold Manaphy:596 Atk vs 236 Def & 404 HP (70 Base Power): 254 - 300 (62.87% - 74.26%)
Same as above, then. Swampert is hit hard enough by Surf already, so HP Electric becomes the superior option due to its ability to hit Gyarados harder.
Agreed. And while Manaphy can easily set up Rain Dance for its teams with Rain Rest + Uturn + Filler, I feel that a steel type would probably work better as their only weakness (in rain) is covered by the rest of the team.
Very true, Jirachi is a good example for this as it has access to Rain Dance, U-Turn, and removes its fire weakness, not to mention the exact same stats as Manaphy. Using Manaphy to set up rain gives you another water type on your team, which shares weaknesses with your water type sweepers. This means you have more problems with grass and electric attacks.
But really, other than Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Kingdra(and Omastar and maybe a few others) what Swift Swimmers are used? I know it may seem irrelevant, but truthfully, only pokemon with secondary STABs/typings are used.
I think Manaphy is pretty good as a Rain-inducer (Especially as one of your backups). Using the "CroPhy" set, you can set up the rain while tanking hits, and if worst comes to worst, he can attempt a late game sweep if need be (If your Swift Swimmers are gone and things like Vaporeon are eliminated).
Hmm well I've been quite busy on the suspect ladder myself, already getting three accounts on the leaderboard with a decent rating to boot. Nevertheless, one of the best Pokémon on the ladder, in my opinion, definitely has to be ScarfTar. Whenever the opponent sees that their Latias 2HKOes Tyranitar, they get cocky and stay in only to faint from a STAB Crunch. Tyranitar's also helpful against things like Raikou that seem to be dominating the metagame.
I've mainly bee using teams that revolve around Spike stacking, as they seem to be effective against sweepers like Manaphy and even opposing Tyranitar if you can either hit them hard before they set up or find a way to switch into them without little risk.
As far as my opinions on the actual suspects go, Latias hasn't been giving me any trouble because both of my teams have ScarfTar in it so it's literally useless against my team. However, I am not convinced that it is truly OU. As I have explained various time in IRC, Latias barely has any solid switch-ins that won't faint to a Choice Specs Surf or Draco Meteor, and Hidden Power Fire makes just about every Steel-type switch-in useless. Manaphy, on the other hand, hasn't been too overwhelming either, since I pack an Abomasnow on my second team and a Raikou on my first. However, from what I've noticed, Manaphy really needs to be outsped in order to be taken out or otherwise it will have no difficult sweeping against anything not named Blissey. I'm not sure whether this indicates uber status or not yet, so I will make sure to keep testing and report with some results.
I've mainly bee using teams that revolve around Spike stacking, as they seem to be effective against sweepers like Manaphy and even opposing Tyranitar if you can either hit them hard before they set up or find a way to switch into them without little risk.
As far as my opinions on the actual suspects go, Latias hasn't been giving me any trouble because both of my teams have ScarfTar in it so it's literally useless against my team. However, I am not convinced that it is truly OU. As I have explained various time in IRC, Latias barely has any solid switch-ins that won't faint to a Choice Specs Surf or Draco Meteor, and Hidden Power Fire makes just about every Steel-type switch-in useless. Manaphy, on the other hand, hasn't been too overwhelming either, since I pack an Abomasnow on my second team and a Raikou on my first. However, from what I've noticed, Manaphy really needs to be outsped in order to be taken out or otherwise it will have no difficult sweeping against anything not named Blissey. I'm not sure whether this indicates uber status or not yet, so I will make sure to keep testing and report with some results.
I completely agree with this. It's very difficult to stop a Specs Latias without having a T-tar (or Blissey, but trick is not uncommon on choiced Latias), and even that takes a ton of damage from either Surf or Draco Meteor. If the opponent doesn't have a pursuiter on their team to ensure that Latias is taken out, it's easy to keep switching in on a resisted attacks and firing off powerful attacks until you've opened yourself a position for something else to sweep (Scizor is good here, and U-turn gives Latias even more chances to switch in) or Latias sweeps itself.
I'm trying out specs Latias myself now, she's pretty strong. I'm actually trying something somewhat unique on my build though, haven't really had many chances to see it in action yet but it hasn't sacrificed any efficacy.
also trying out a somewhat oddball pokemon - Quagsire basically semi-counters any Manaphy that isn't carrying a Grass move. Lots are, so it's not as effective as I'd hoped so far, but it's still a pretty neat pokemon to fiddle with. I haven't pinpointed a good move set for Quaggy but Toxic/Protect/EQ are good. I'm running max HP and SpD on Relaxed Quaggy for now since he can also take a hit from Latias that way.
also trying out a somewhat oddball pokemon - Quagsire basically semi-counters any Manaphy that isn't carrying a Grass move. Lots are, so it's not as effective as I'd hoped so far, but it's still a pretty neat pokemon to fiddle with. I haven't pinpointed a good move set for Quaggy but Toxic/Protect/EQ are good. I'm running max HP and SpD on Relaxed Quaggy for now since he can also take a hit from Latias that way.
People should begin to use Metagross not only as a lead. A max HP Metagross only takes around 44% from a specs surf, while a full power draco meteor only manages around 49%. On the other hand, a max Atk pursuit will always ohko a switching Latias, while if she stays in meteor mash + bullet punch will take care even of defensive variants. Max Atk on Metagross is not even needed to deal with Latias.
Speaking of Manaphy, I think that even without Garchomp, which was a good check for it during stage 3-2, it's not being such a threat in this metagame, as Latias can switch into virtually any of its set (Crophy is annoying, but then again CM Latias will always beat it 1 vs 1) and despite its bulkyness, its "only" 100 base Spe doesn't make it impossible to stop for offensive teams.
Also, more people need to play the suspect laddder, sometimes you have to wait for over 30 minutes to get a match.
Speaking of Manaphy, I think that even without Garchomp, which was a good check for it during stage 3-2, it's not being such a threat in this metagame, as Latias can switch into virtually any of its set (Crophy is annoying, but then again CM Latias will always beat it 1 vs 1) and despite its bulkyness, its "only" 100 base Spe doesn't make it impossible to stop for offensive teams.
Also, more people need to play the suspect laddder, sometimes you have to wait for over 30 minutes to get a match.
I agree. AgiliGross coming into a Draco Meteor from Latias and grabbing a Speed boost after counters are weakened is absolutely deadly, and will sweep a whole team if played right.
Also, I've found that Choice Band Snorlax is a great partner to Tail Glow Manaphy, as he can easily come in on Thunderbolts directed at Manaphy and Pursuit the user on the way out. They are usually damaged enough so that either Stealth Rock takes them out when they switch back in. Such Pokemon include Latias, Starmie, Gengar, Rotom formes (Watch out for Will-O-Wisp). Gyarados is also a great lure for these Pokemon, getting them to Thunderbolt him while you switch to CBLax for the kill. I've tried CBTar for this job too, but I don't like Sandstorm messing with Leftovers recovery on Manaphy.
Haunter, your problems with getting matches may be because of your time zone. I find that Shoddy Battle gets the most traffic around 7-9 p.m. GMT-5, and if you're telling the truth about where you live, that's going to be a hard time to battle for you. I have comparatively little trouble with finding Suspect matches when I ladder. But I agree nonetheless that more people should play Suspect.
I've been using Manaphy on basically a standard team with Ttar, Latias, and Scizor, and its obviously been working pretty decent. I first started by using Leftovers Manaphy on the standard analysis set, but found myself easily revenged by faster pokemon like Latias, Scarf Rotom, etc with Thunderbolt. To remedy I tried Wacan Berry, a more common set nowadays and it works very nicely, allowing me to take down opposing Latias, get a key kill and continue my sweep. It also helps that Manaphy resists Scizor's Bullet Punch, making it hard to get revenged by it. Tyranitar and Scizor are essential in the metagame with Latias on every team, to get an easy pursuit kill. I've been experimenting with different Tyranitar sets and right now I'm going with an Expert Belt set, with Stone Edge, Crunch, Pursuit, and Low Kick. I also might try the CS set listed above; but they both take out Latias pretty well.
Another thing I've noticed is the lack of Blisseys and special walls that in theory can wall both Manaphy (without rain dance) and Latias. I haven't run into a single Blissey on the ladder. I've also seen a large amount of offensive teams, and Dual Screens seems pretty popular. I've also (maybe not surprisingly) not seen many rain dance teams, but they still pose a threat one manaphy sets up. A lot of the manaphy sets have subbed out rest for things like Energy Ball or HP Electric, so once faced with rain dance teams they are beaten by opposing manaphy.
Also, what was up with the Grass Knot abuse?
Wouldn't you have to consider Wacan Berry Manaphy?
Another thing I've noticed is the lack of Blisseys and special walls that in theory can wall both Manaphy (without rain dance) and Latias. I haven't run into a single Blissey on the ladder. I've also seen a large amount of offensive teams, and Dual Screens seems pretty popular. I've also (maybe not surprisingly) not seen many rain dance teams, but they still pose a threat one manaphy sets up. A lot of the manaphy sets have subbed out rest for things like Energy Ball or HP Electric, so once faced with rain dance teams they are beaten by opposing manaphy.
Also, what was up with the Grass Knot abuse?
Wouldn't you have to consider Wacan Berry Manaphy?
Actually, it isn't that big of a deal as opposing Wacan Manaphy cannot stop your sweep.
Against 252 / 0 neutral Manaphy, a TG boosted HP Electric only needs to roll near-minimum damage on the Wacan hit, followed by average damage on the 2nd hit to 2HKO. That same Manaphy cannot KO back with its strongest attack, Energy Ball, even on 6 / 0 Manaphy.
The picture is more grim against opposing 6 / 0 Timid Manaphy - my own could roll minimum damage twice and still manage to 2HKO through Wacan Berry, while the more powerful opponent (when compared to 252 HP Manaphy) still fails to KO back with Rocks.
So as far as sweeping is concerned, Wacan Manaphy isn't too much of an impediment. If you want to check other Manaphy, then Energy Ball is probably the better choice.
EDIT: Considering the fact that HP Electric Manaphy still only 2HKOs other Manaphy, the berry makes little difference.
Wacan Berry may have some uses against the likes of LO Latias or scarf-Rotom with the former which makes probably the best first switch into any Manaphy, and the latter that is an awesome revenge killer. To be honest though, I think that leftovers is still the best option on Manaphy, it helps compensating SS and SR damage, and considering that the two aforementioned Pokemon, along with Jolteon and the rare Raikou can be taken care by TTar, having an electric attack resist berry is not exactly necessary. And as the above poster said, opposing Manaphy will 2hko Manaphy regardless of the wacan berry, and it can't ohko in return so, once again, wacan is pretty much useless.