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np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I

I find latias infuriating because I don't want to use scarf tyranitar just for her.

...and Scarf Tyranitar isn't even a guaranteed method of dealing with Latias. You're still 2HKOed by Specs Surf, or Meteor with any sort of entry hazard, all you've done is turn it into a 50/50 shot, the predictive version of a speed tie. Scarftar's Pursuit isn't strong enough to OHKO if they don't switch, though you'll still take out a big chunk of HP, and your Crunch is weaksauce if they do switch in a resistor. Frankly, I'm surprised Lucario usage continues to slowly DROP, seeing as how its initial big rise came from being able to take advantage of Choice Banded Pursuits.

As far as mentioning "omgsteels" as a counter, they all eat it pretty hard to boosted Surf anyway, which is Latias' most common alpha strike what with also trying to keep Tyranitar away (weak to Water). Bulky (max HP) Scizor gets 2HKOed and defensive Jirachi can't threaten Latias offensively. Metagross is the only real threat besides T-Tar, possibly Snorlax.

I really think that wacan berry Manaphy is overhyped. Other Pokemon can effectively use attack resist berries but that doesn't make them broken by any means. Damage calcs show that wacan Manaphy can survive a stab elctric attack from some of its usual checks, but then it's left with a little amount of HP, exposing it to revenge killing from anything faster or that carries a priority move:

...

Wacan Manaphy can definitely beat some of its checks, but so can do wacan Gyarados, shuca Heatran, occa Metagross and so on. After it uses its berry it can be revenge killed quite easily, especially considering that, unlike Gyarados, it can't boost its speed.

This is exactly like what I've said in the past about Garchomp. However, Manaphy is a little more bulky on the special side and, though it goes 50/50 with Salamence (or the rare Flygon, max Speed Zapdos), it does have resistance to the priority move by far both the strongest and most common, Scizor's Bullet Punch. It even continues to improve as many Lucario are teching to Bullet Punch to outwit ScarfTar popping up everywhere.

Where Manaphy falls short is that it isn't the same offensive threat. It's not even that it has an inferior type combination, as Water/Ice/Grass-Electric is arguably better than what Garchomp gets. (Where hard counters do exist for Manaphy, neither of those pokémon are OU and Manaphy also hits super-effective on a much wider range of targets.) Though often deemed as "unnecessary," even the threat of an unboosted Outrage being able to OHKO where DClaw cannot (or 2HKO where DClaw 3HKOs) makes it that much more difficult to switch in against Garchomp. Manaphy? If it predicts Latias and guesses Ice Beam, Latias takes a hurting but it doesn't die. Azelf won't die to Surf and Starmie won't die to Energy Ball from Manaphy the way they would a Garchomp Outrage. It's that sense in which Manaphy is the lesser threat overall. It also helps that Garchomp plays physical, whereas Manaphy has trouble with the catch-all Special wall if it doesn't have rain.

Manaphy is a pretty killer support pokémon for the real offensive threats, though. Nobody provides rain for Kingdra or Kabutops the way Manaphy can, nigh-unkillable with one-turn full healing with status removal and the infamous "bulky water" typing.

ARD, Quagsire only works against the mono-attacking sets. It sure isn't threatening offensively, so it'll still lose to Ice Beam if they lack the Grass attack. You're better off with Vaporeon no matter what. Manaphy's real threats are Ludicolo and Abomasnow, guys. :/ Abomasnow can even ruin rain setups, though you have to build around it a little more.

Ok, something really odd is that yesterday when I was playing, every team I faced was getting wrecked by SubSeed Breloom.

Almost every scrub has no idea how to deal with Breloom at all. :/ Wonderful pokémon!
 
ARD, Quagsire only works against the mono-attacking sets. It sure isn't threatening offensively, so it'll still lose to Ice Beam if they lack the Grass attack. You're better off with Vaporeon no matter what. Manaphy's real threats are Ludicolo and Abomasnow, guys. :/ Abomasnow can even ruin rain setups, though you have to build around it a little more.

I beg to disagree. Manaphy's Wacan (read: non LO) +2 Ice Beam doesn't even manage a 2HKO.
252 Timid Wacan Berry Manaphy +2 Ice Beam
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Quagsire : 162 - 192 41.1% - 48.7%

In my experience, Manaphy have been running HP Electric, which means, like it's big brother Kyogre in Ubers, the only thing Manaphy can do to Quagsire is Ice Beam.
Anyhow, as long as you are over 50%, you can switch into Manaphy, Yawn, then Protect/Recover. Manaphy either takes a nap, or he switched out, or he failed to kill you. I don't think Quagsire's usefulness is restricted only to the mono-attacking sets (which are practically non-existent in this suspect test).
 
I have been haxed a ton in the few matches I have played. However I think my team may be a little out of date because of the huge amount of scarftar out there. I mean dude this thing is everywhere. It has even sent tyranitar over salamence for the number two spot. Not a whole lot of people playing which is a shame considering I really need the battles.
 
Why is everyone going on Specs Latias?

Why is it a problem now? Weve always had that set..

[fears that latias may go to uber...]
 
Why is everyone going on Specs Latias?

Why is it a problem now? Weve always had that set..

[fears that latias may go to uber...]


I would wager it is because if anything makes Latias Uber, its that Stab, 140 Base power move running off 110 base special attack. Put a specs on, and it really starts shitting on stuff. Until they bring in their specially defensive steel or TTar. Meh.
 
I think all that talk of a Quagsire running Careful and 252/252 HP and SpD is a bit silly and way too situational for it to have any relevance here. Ludicolo and Abomasnow are fair game, as they do well against both current suspects and if a team is built properly with them in mind, they work in OU pefectly fine. Myself and Ashley have even used Ludicolo with some success thus far, but without running Rain Dance it's difficult to fit Manaphy into the team as well.

I haven't used Manaphy in this round of testing yet, but I've faced it plenty. When I did use it in the last rounds, I found it a little lacklustre and it was harder to win games when using it. Although, Garchomp's presence the first time was probably a huge factor. I haven't found Manaphy a huge problem, but I've been using Specs Latias which is pretty much a guaranteed revenge kill. I'm hopefully going to build a team with Manaphy in next in hope of gaining more experience with it. Latias seems like the better Pokémon to have from the two if I'm honest, though.

The trend I'm starting to see now is the all out offensive team with the Dual Screen lead. It boosts the already high sweeping potential of things like Latias, Salamence, Machamp, Metagross, Tyranitar etc. This can kind of support my current theory on Manaphy, that it's often harder to win more games with it, that it's just a decent Pokémon that is fine for OU but there are better options out there. As people can just throw together a Dual Screen Lead Offensive Team and include Manaphy in it to win, a lot of the time not needing to use it. I've recently been beaten a good few times by people doing this without them having to use Manaphy. Maybe my team just can't deal with it consistently any more, though it was successful when Stage 3-4 first started.

I'll see what else I can come up with team-wise, include Manaphy, then have another visit here to talk about what's going on.

Edit: Also, I'm not sure if I'd really class the Specs set as broken. The extra Special Attack on Latios really helped it out in consistently beating its 'counters'. But then again, Latias is just getting done in by Scarf Tar and CB Scizor all the time, which are the same things that beat Latios. Specs Latias can take Bullet Punch slightly easier, I think it's almost as good as Specs Latios, so maybe that is enough to push it up a Tier? With Scizor and Tyranitar so common though, maybe it's not justified to say that Latias is Uber. However, on the flip-side, with Latias being in OU for so long, maybe it's now just the norm that it's 'there' and is the biggest reason why Scizor and Tyranitar are so common in the first place.
 
I actually don't understand why the Specs Latias set is so common in Suspect, but is only used on 17% of Latias in OU. Is there some huge difference requiring a sudden surge of Specs on suspect Latias? It doesn't seem like Manaphy is enough of a reason to make a 17% set rise by such a large amount. If it's doing this for Tyranitar, why hasn't it been doing this in OU, where ScarfTar is also rising in popularity?

Also, if people are commenting on how hard Specs Latias hits, doesn't SpecsMence hit just as hard (even moreso with better coverage)? It can also take Pursuit a lot better, meaning that he's not put into checkmate as often. While SpecsMence isn't as fast as Specs Latias, people seem to be commenting on how hard it is to switch into Latias (though it's not exactly easy to switch into any Choice user anyway), so the Speed isn't as much of an issue then. It seems like if you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, SpecsMence is the better choice, especially if you have something to beat Blissey. While Specs Latias can Trick its Specs onto Blissey, her Draco Meteors become much less potent, and since most seem to be Modest, they're easy to kill after a Trick.

Better yet, double up on Specs Latias and SpecsMence...

I still don't think Specs Latias is broken, but is merely extremely useful, since Steels are everywhere, and a lot of them are starting to pack special defense to deal with Draco Meteors.
 
No this does not work. How long was garchomp in ou? 'because it's always been this way' is not a valid reason.
That was before YacheChomp was discovered and began being widely used, which started the discussion. Same with Deoxys-S: until the Lead set was discovered, it wasn't found to be too problematic when it was brought down originally. SpecsLatias, however, has been around all this time, with relatively little change since Platinum was released. What suddenly is making it so broken that wasn't the case during the other stages of testing? As an outside observer who has not participated in the actual testing, this is quite a puzzling development to me, and I can't quite figure it out. No real changes relevant to Latias have occurred in the metagame recently, but yet the opinion of it is changing nonetheless. In Garchomp's and Deoxys's cases, it made sense, because new sets and new ways of using them were discovered. With Latias though, it's the same stuff, so why the change with it? That's something I'd be quite interested in finding out.
 
I actually don't understand why the Specs Latias set is so common in Suspect, but is only used on 17% of Latias in OU. Is there some huge difference requiring a sudden surge of Specs on suspect Latias? It doesn't seem like Manaphy is enough of a reason to make a 17% set rise by such a large amount. If it's doing this for Tyranitar, why hasn't it been doing this in OU, where ScarfTar is also rising in popularity?

Also, if people are commenting on how hard Specs Latias hits, doesn't SpecsMence hit just as hard (even moreso with better coverage)? It can also take Pursuit a lot better, meaning that he's not put into checkmate as often. While SpecsMence isn't as fast as Specs Latias, people seem to be commenting on how hard it is to switch into Latias (though it's not exactly easy to switch into any Choice user anyway), so the Speed isn't as much of an issue then. It seems like if you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, SpecsMence is the better choice, especially if you have something to beat Blissey. While Specs Latias can Trick its Specs onto Blissey, her Draco Meteors become much less potent, and since most seem to be Modest, they're easy to kill after a Trick.

Better yet, double up on Specs Latias and SpecsMence...

I still don't think Specs Latias is broken, but is merely extremely useful, since Steels are everywhere, and a lot of them are starting to pack special defense to deal with Draco Meteors.
The more reliable Surf, higher Speed, access to Trick, and no Stealth Rock resistances are the only reasons I can think of.
 
I actually don't understand why the Specs Latias set is so common in Suspect, but is only used on 17% of Latias in OU. Is there some huge difference requiring a sudden surge of Specs on suspect Latias? It doesn't seem like Manaphy is enough of a reason to make a 17% set rise by such a large amount. If it's doing this for Tyranitar, why hasn't it been doing this in OU, where ScarfTar is also rising in popularity?

Also, if people are commenting on how hard Specs Latias hits, doesn't SpecsMence hit just as hard (even moreso with better coverage)? It can also take Pursuit a lot better, meaning that he's not put into checkmate as often. While SpecsMence isn't as fast as Specs Latias, people seem to be commenting on how hard it is to switch into Latias (though it's not exactly easy to switch into any Choice user anyway), so the Speed isn't as much of an issue then. It seems like if you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, SpecsMence is the better choice, especially if you have something to beat Blissey. While Specs Latias can Trick its Specs onto Blissey, her Draco Meteors become much less potent, and since most seem to be Modest, they're easy to kill after a Trick.

Better yet, double up on Specs Latias and SpecsMence...

I still don't think Specs Latias is broken, but is merely extremely useful, since Steels are everywhere, and a lot of them are starting to pack special defense to deal with Draco Meteors.

Some people are scared off by the thought of laddering on the suspect ladder. Many people don't realize the potency of Specs Latias in the standard ladder, so they still use her other sets. Also, I assume the fast-paced nature of suspect further eliminates any defensive sets and sets that require setting up, meaning that Latias gains more from using a Specs set.

As for Specsmence, there is no need to when it is outclassed by Mixmence. Also, Speed is still an issue because instead of having to take one hard hit and then checking Latias, the Pokemon has to take two before it can do something. Priority may get past that, but many priority users are weak defensively (sans Scizor).

As for me, I've been using the Uber trapper set except with an Iron Plate. The extra special defensive bulk really helps, except I miss the power a lot.
 
Specs Latias is better than SpecsMence for several reasons:
1. Trick. Now Blissey gets royally screwed on any mispredict. SpecsMence cannot break Blissey. Other walls are also taken to the back room to lose their virginity.
2. More speed. Seriously, that extra speed tier did wonders for Latias. That extra umph gets is ahead of any +Speed base 90s (Lucario, Roserade). Also, any neutral Speed base 100s are outsped (SpecsMence, some Jirachi, Celebi, Zapdos) who could otherwise cause issues.
3. Better OU coverage. Draco Meteor + Fire Blast is what Salamence relies on for a Specs set. Latias get Thunderbolt, Draco Meteor, Surf, Psychic, and Trick, to name the most viable. Though Dragon + Fire seems awesome, Specs Surf 2HKOs ever Steel bar Empoleon and defensive Jirachi. Empoleon is shot down by Thunderbolt and Jirachi presents no threat if it spent the EVs to survive the onslaught. Plus, Draco Meteor + Surf + Thunderbolt hits everything for neutral damage at worst I think (bar any Grass/Steel type coming in gen 5). Also, these moves are all at or above 90% accuracy, making hitting opponents so much easier than with SpecsMence.
4. More bulk. Though Salamence has Intimidate, Latias has more bulk after an opponent switch. This lets her live longer in general but presents an issue with Pursuit users (Scarf/BandTar). Still, Latias possesses the power to take on every Pursuit user in the game with entry hazards down.

That's my take on why Specs Latias is a larger and more real threat than SpecsMence. Is it broken? I don't know. I remember SpecsMence was a HUGE threat back in early DP and required a Steel or Blissey to wall. Specs Latias is even more threatening, so it comes very close to the line. And with Blissey falling out of favor, it seems Specs Latias is a monster. But so are SDLuke and NPNape and DDMence. I say wait until things have settled a little, but at the moment it sounds like the metagame is overcentralizing around Latias and, as a result, ScarfTar. I have only seen a few Manaphy, though the well played Wacan one took me out. Specs Latias and ScarfTar are not huge issues as I run stall with Hippowdon and Blissey.

Early thoughts. I'll get more into it and more informend at some point.
 
3. Better OU coverage. Draco Meteor + Fire Blast is what Salamence relies on for a Specs set. Latias get Thunderbolt, Draco Meteor, Surf, Psychic, and Trick, to name the most viable. Though Dragon + Fire seems awesome, Specs Surf 2HKOs ever Steel bar Empoleon and defensive Jirachi. Empoleon is shot down by Thunderbolt and Jirachi presents no threat if it spent the EVs to survive the onslaught. Plus, Draco Meteor + Surf + Thunderbolt hits everything for neutral damage at worst I think (bar any Grass/Steel type coming in gen 5). Also, these moves are all at or above 90% accuracy, making hitting opponents so much easier than with SpecsMence.

I guess it should be noted that Salamence has acess to Hydro Pump, which does everything Surf does.

Not saying it's better than latias or anything, but it's a great move that shouldn't be forgotten.
 
the problem with hydro pump is that it faces the same problems of all the other 80% acc moves of its caliber like cross chop or stone edge sure it can do something certain checks but that miss chance will likely screw you at a bad time if you have to spam it more than once.
 
This is exactly like what I've said in the past about Garchomp. However, Manaphy is a little more bulky on the special side and, though it goes 50/50 with Salamence (or the rare Flygon, max Speed Zapdos), it does have resistance to the priority move by far both the strongest and most common, Scizor's Bullet Punch. It even continues to improve as many Lucario are teching to Bullet Punch to outwit ScarfTar popping up everywhere.

Well, on the other hand, Garchomp is a little more bulky on the physical side and has an useful resistance to rock and an excellent immunity to electric attacks.

Where Manaphy falls short is that it isn't the same offensive threat. It's not even that it has an inferior type combination, as Water/Ice/Grass-Electric is arguably better than what Garchomp gets. (Where hard counters do exist for Manaphy, neither of those pokémon are OU and Manaphy also hits super-effective on a much wider range of targets.) Though often deemed as "unnecessary," even the threat of an unboosted Outrage being able to OHKO where DClaw cannot (or 2HKO where DClaw 3HKOs) makes it that much more difficult to switch in against Garchomp. Manaphy? If it predicts Latias and guesses Ice Beam, Latias takes a hurting but it doesn't die. Azelf won't die to Surf and Starmie won't die to Energy Ball from Manaphy the way they would a Garchomp Outrage. It's that sense in which Manaphy is the lesser threat overall. It also helps that Garchomp plays physical, whereas Manaphy has trouble with the catch-all Special wall if it doesn't have rain.
Exactly, as far as I know Garchomp was votedd uber under the offensive characteristic, and for good reasons. It has something called STAB dragon and ground and, unlike Manaphy it doesn't need to win any speed tie with the common base 100 Spe Pokemon. Other than that, it has a massive 130 base Atk stat when compared to Manaphy's average 100 (a timid Manaphy maxes out at 299 SpA, a jolly Chomp has 359 Atk), and has access to a 100 and 120 base power stab move. Also, Garchomp's obnoxious ability is way easier to activate than Manaphy's. That's enough to differentiate them.

Enough said about Garchomp, now stop this off-topic as, you know, Garchomp is no longer a suspect, having been voted uber twice (three times) in a row. I know that it's hard for you, but that's a fact, accept it.

Manaphy is a pretty killer support pokémon for the real offensive threats, though. Nobody provides rain for Kingdra or Kabutops the way Manaphy can, nigh-unkillable with one-turn full healing with status removal and the infamous "bulky water" typing.
There are a plethora of Pokemon capable of reliably set up rain dance and Manaphy is no exception. Fortunately rain only lasts 5 or 8 turns and can be easily cancelled switching in TTar or Hippo or Abomasnow. If anything, you should blame rain dance teams for being so deadly (see the discussion in PR), but OU has several ways to deal with them.

I actually don't understand why the Specs Latias set is so common in Suspect, but is only used on 17% of Latias in OU. Is there some huge difference requiring a sudden surge of Specs on suspect Latias? It doesn't seem like Manaphy is enough of a reason to make a 17% set rise by such a large amount. If it's doing this for Tyranitar, why hasn't it been doing this in OU, where ScarfTar is also rising in popularity?

I think that Manaphy is a good reason alone to use specs Latias. A specs draco meteor ohkos almost every Manaphy, and cro-Phy is 2hko'd anyway.
 
So guys, what do you honestly think?

Do you think Latias will stabilize after some time? (I mean in standard)
Or will she start running specs as her main set?
 
so let me to deduct what I can from the current situation.

The suspect ladder is full with latias, especially the specs version, and leads to an increase in scarftar usage to check it. While manaphy is left in the dust for lack of usefulness, Am I correct? And the only few uses for manaphy are to provide rain support, wacan set (which is starting to get useless?) and LO sets. CMIIW

And so, I'm suggesting to use manaphy to kill tyranitar... 0.o

@ PK
I think OU latias would most likely follow suit to use specs sets
 
I'm using modest specs Latias, just amazing, really gets big dents out there, lack of special walls is helping it. At most it seems to be a 1 for 1 kill. Let latias kill something, revenge kill it with T-tar, scizor, metagross. It's not so safe switching in T-tar/scizor's into latias anymore as most carry specs -.-
 
While manaphy is left in the dust for lack of usefulness, Am I correct? And the only few uses for manaphy are to provide rain support, wacan set (which is starting to get useless?) and LO sets. CMIIW
No way, Manaphy is not as good as Latias, but is pretty on-par. I mean on my team, one of the most reliable way I kill Manaphy is to use Specs Latias. Explosion on specially defensive Metagross is my last resort o.o. Specs usefulness is overshadowing Manaphy's usefulness, but in actuality the tail glow set is having a strong impact in suspect along with Latias.

I also personally use a Scarf Manaphy, but Tail Glow is undoubtedly the best set. Although imo CM Mono Manaphy is also just as good as Tail Glow variants.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if most people on standard have never actually used specs latias, or used draco meteor too heavily. The thoughtline to me would be 'choice user weak to pursuit? no thanks!'. What they don't know is that specs surf 2hkos any strong persuit user. When I did finally user her I found myself using surf probably 90% of the time, unless I knew I could get a ko in with draco meteor/thunderbolt. The interesting thing to me is I tried a specs milotic once, since latias is so effective with surf, and it was a disaster. The threat of draco meteors keep things that can absorb surfs well(grass/water) away, doubly so since none of them can really harm latias. A well predicted swampert ice beam does a piddly 30% to latias.
 
Ok, I'm kind of confused as to why people are still using ScarfTar the most if Specs Latias is the problem. I know that in OU, people usually use the specially defensive Choice Bander to deal with her, so why not in suspect? (252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SDef Careful)

A Specs Surf doesn't even come close to 2HKOing this thing in Sandstorm, and neither does Draco Meteor. Latias still takes a OHKO from a full-powered Pursuit, meaning that Tyranitar should always come out on top as the Specially Defensive Choice Bander.
 
Started to ladder again today. Went 10-1. Manaphy is definitely my MVP, with Latias also being as awesome as usual.

As for Scarf TTar over Band TTar, Scarf TTar provides more utility on teams, so why not use it? Specs Surf isn't a OHKO, so Scarf TTar still comes out on top vs. Latias. In fact, Scarf TTar is the only consistently useful Latias check IMO.
 
Little Battler: Manaphy isn't being left in the dust, and it's not useless. It's a good pokemon. It just hasn't been living up to the expectations many people (presumably those that didn't participate in Stage 3.3, as it doesn't seem to have changed much since then) held. It also isn't really going to be "countering" these Tyranitar anytime soon—though the Tail Glow set’s +0 Surf can 2HKO ScarfTar, you're going to have a severly injured Manaphy afterwards, as you'll be outsped and Crunch will hit twice for around 43% each time. After SR and Sandstorm damage, this is basically KOing Manaphy. EDIT: Mr.E raises a fair point--defensive sets like Crophy can indeed counter ScarfTar. To return to LB's question, though: the reason few players seem to be using those bulkier Manaphy builds to counter Tyranitar is probably related to the breakneck speed the suspect metagame is moving at. The fast pace lowers the efficacy of defensive sets and in turn encourages the use of more offensively-minded ones like Tail Glow.

Anyways, I'm not sure why people keep saying Manaphy is a good rain setter. It can take advantage of Hydration, yes, but it brings absolutely no useful resistances to rain teams. Those lineups are already stocked up on Water pokemon with their Swift Swimmers--they need the resistance palette rain setters like Latias and Scizor bring to the table, not more of the same. I'm under the impression that while Manaphy may work better in rain than out of it (boosted STAB and Hydration to abuse), rain in general works better without Manaphy, as the playstyle desperately needs varied typing in its rain setters to achieve anything resembling balance.

In addition to Haunter's point about shutting most Manaphy down, I think Specs Latias is seeing so much usage simply because that's her most "suspect" moveset and people are trying to gauge its “brokenness”/abuse it. Though I voted Latias OU, I'll admit I had to do some serious thinking about Specs before making my final decision. As many have noted, Spike-stacking makes her even more dangerous in this metagame. Though she’s certainly a force to be reckoned with, Tyranitar remains a constant thorn in her side, either outspeeding and putting her in a checkmate position with Choice Scarf or possibly tanking the hits with a Specially Defensive spread and KOing regardless of the opponent’s actions with Pursuit. Similarly, bulkier Scizor builds can weather a blow and Pursuit/U-turn, while Specially Defensive Skarmory can set up Spikes on a predicted Draco Meteor. Stall teams can sponge hits with Blissey and absorb Trick with Scarf Jirachi or Scarf Tyranitar (using Wish to heal the Scarfers up in case one makes a misprediction). Specs Latias is a fantastic set capable of punching holes in a great many teams, but I haven’t found the holes she does punch to be large enough to warrant an Uber vote. In general, the abundance of steels and pokemon utilizing Pursuit appears to prevent Latias from causing too much chaos. (One can always raise the “chicken and the egg” point and claim Latias is the reason these strategies are popular, but if you look at OU usage statistics, they’ve all been in use for a very long time.)
 
That really depends on how you're using Manaphy, since a defensive one certainly counters T-Tar very well, especially if it's carrying Rain Dance. It's no Suicune when it comes to mitigating raw damage but it's generally tougher to kill because it never leaves itself vulnerable the way Suicune does when it Rests. Manaphy is perhaps underrated in that regard; controlling the weather can be important too and nobody is better equipped to turn off Sand Stream if your team doesn't like it. Maybe it was a little more important in 3-1 and 3-2, but even so...


Well, Haunter, where Garchomp is like .1% more bulky than Manaphy on the physical side (why I didn't bother mentioning it), Manaphy is closer to 10% more bulky on the Special side. But hey, Salamence and Latias are better than Manaphy too. loldragons
rolleyes.gif
*wander off to PR forum*
 
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