Actually I find it unusually hard to use manaphy not utilizing a scarf. Also shrang i beat you when you used your latias lead. I'm actually finding scarftar to be a real pain when using latias and the fact that most teams have scizor as well doesnt help. That said I'm not the greatest teambuilder around and at the moment am playing around with a gross, scarf manaphy, scizor, gengar with hypnosis (you'd be surprised how many ttar and scizors I've slept with this thing) and the specs latias and sdluke combo
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
no but in the right hands the other sets are semi-broken. But the scarf set with a decent team (this is where i fail) is quite hard to stop. For example dad. has used a scarf manaphy with an excellent team imo which has got him to no1 on the leaderboard.
The Scarf set is hardly the most broken; it's not even broken at all. Scarf sets revenge kill and utilise u-turn, which hardly makes for an unstoppable Pokémon, given it's switching in and out, and isn't doing that much damage, especially given split EVs (I assume Atk is used somewhat to snipe Latias). Tail Glow is definitely the broken one imo, though CM is nasty as well. Scarfphy is good, but far from exemplary. Assuming I qualify, Scarf Manaphy will barely even rate a mention in my paras. :P
Lockeness: 'it can be revenge killed' is a bad argument, because it applies to most übers. 100 Speed is also pretty good, and Manaphy apparently used to run Wacan often, though I've only seen LO and Scarf so far.
Lockeness: 'it can be revenge killed' is a bad argument, because it applies to most übers. 100 Speed is also pretty good, and Manaphy apparently used to run Wacan often, though I've only seen LO and Scarf so far.
I didn't say scarf manaphy was broken just its one of the easier ones to use and put in a team a bit like banded scizor. Anyway I'm thinking about compiling a list of manaphy's counters, because at the moment the only counters I can think of is latias. So then what can counter manaphy so we can find a way to beat those pokes.
Latias looks more like a Manaphy counter rather than a check, to be honest. A max SpA Manaphy can only 2hko her with ice beam, its slower and needs to predict the switch in in order to 2hko her (assuming 4 HP min SpD Latias).
Latias ohkos Manaphy in return with a specs draco meteor, and always 2hkos it with dragon pulse. A specs thunderbolt can nearly ohko (76.5% - 90.3%) offensive Manaphy as well, unless it's carrying a wacan berry.
Blissey counters substitute-less Manaphy, but yeah, she's not a surefire counter.
Latias ohkos Manaphy in return with a specs draco meteor, and always 2hkos it with dragon pulse. A specs thunderbolt can nearly ohko (76.5% - 90.3%) offensive Manaphy as well, unless it's carrying a wacan berry.
Blissey counters substitute-less Manaphy, but yeah, she's not a surefire counter.
In my experience Manaphy has been underwhelming. The way i view manaphy is a pokemon that is a potent sweeper especially with the right support but its not overpowering. Certainly Manaphy is completely shutdown by a very viable pokemon in OU, Abomasnow - see Lady Bug's masterful team.
Manaphy in my experience has been extremely easy to revenge kill having been weakened into the appropriate damage range as it sets up which is never tricky and if it does use a wacan berry it will not get another chance to set up there are just too many pokemon faster than it capable of doing serious damage. Due to this Manaphy, unlike Garchomp, is not going to sweep your team effortlessly as it Habans its way through your appropriate counter. If it it is timid, and and does not run max speed it is prone to revenge kills from a plethora of commonly used OU pokemon. However if it is then it lacks the sufficient bulk as ive already mentioned to survive the assaults to sweep. ive played games where it has little chance to switch in let alone set up. So Manaphy lacks the raw power that Garchomp or Latios had but does it somewhat makes up for this with its versatility? Three offensive sets are worth metioning: Tail Glow three attacks, Sub Tail Glow and the dangerous but difficult to use Rain Rest Manapy thanks to trick, the omnipresent Tyranitar and it can easily be Phazed. On the odd occasion one of these sets will beat you, maybe even dominate you but the same can be said for a well played substitue Gengar, a DD TTar or any other succesful sweeper.
The other thing ive noticed when you use manaphy is that you usually dont run another water pokemon. I've exploited this by using a Physical Mix Ape with mach punch so that ScarfTar can't revenge and a Metagross to pursuit any Latias.
Latias is not Uber. Even the specs is definitely play-around-able Metagross or spec defensive scizor as well as Scarf Tar are all equally succesful.
Manaphy in my experience has been extremely easy to revenge kill having been weakened into the appropriate damage range as it sets up which is never tricky and if it does use a wacan berry it will not get another chance to set up there are just too many pokemon faster than it capable of doing serious damage. Due to this Manaphy, unlike Garchomp, is not going to sweep your team effortlessly as it Habans its way through your appropriate counter. If it it is timid, and and does not run max speed it is prone to revenge kills from a plethora of commonly used OU pokemon. However if it is then it lacks the sufficient bulk as ive already mentioned to survive the assaults to sweep. ive played games where it has little chance to switch in let alone set up. So Manaphy lacks the raw power that Garchomp or Latios had but does it somewhat makes up for this with its versatility? Three offensive sets are worth metioning: Tail Glow three attacks, Sub Tail Glow and the dangerous but difficult to use Rain Rest Manapy thanks to trick, the omnipresent Tyranitar and it can easily be Phazed. On the odd occasion one of these sets will beat you, maybe even dominate you but the same can be said for a well played substitue Gengar, a DD TTar or any other succesful sweeper.
The other thing ive noticed when you use manaphy is that you usually dont run another water pokemon. I've exploited this by using a Physical Mix Ape with mach punch so that ScarfTar can't revenge and a Metagross to pursuit any Latias.
Latias is not Uber. Even the specs is definitely play-around-able Metagross or spec defensive scizor as well as Scarf Tar are all equally succesful.
Ludicolo is neutral or better to all of manaphy's attacks and has stab energy balls with good spd, or a leech speed/protect stall. Kingdra is neutral to them as well, and has stab dragon attacks to beat it with. Rain manaphys seem non existent. I've been having success paralyzing it with specially bulky togekiss then roosting off the ice beam damage.
They are all equally successful.. at getting 2hko'd by surf.
They are all equally successful.. at getting 2hko'd by surf.
Has anyone tried Specially Defensive Rock-types in Sandstorm to try and counter both suspects? Since Sandstorm is damn well everywhere on this ladder, it's not hard to assume that they will get the Special Defense boost.
I've been using my own special blend of Relicanth in OU lately with great success, and it actually works very well in Suspect as well:
Relicanth @Leftovers
EVs: 240 HP / 36 Atk / 232 SpD
Rock Head
Careful nature (+SpD, -SpA)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Head Smash
- Waterfall / Earthquake
This variation of Relicanth has enormous Special Defensive capabilities, with 401 HP and 369 Special Defense. In addition, Grass Knots are pretty pathetic against it, because Grass Knot is only 40 BP, meaning that it requires Energy Ball or Leaf Storm to OHKO this thing on the Special side. It even survives a Modest Specs Magnezone's Thunderbolt, only taking 81.3% - 96.3%. Meanwhile, it still maintains ridiculous physical tanking capabilities, having the same HP as Swampert with only 10 less Defense with this spread.
With that, it acts as a very nice counter to Energy Ball-less Wacan Manaphy, because HP Electric only does 20.4% - 24.4% before a Tail Glow, and 40.9% - 48.4% after a Tail Glow, meaning that Manaphy will most likely be 3HKOing even after Stealth Rock with a Tail Glow. Head Smash does 45% - 53.5% to Manaphy, which is a 2HKO after Stealth Rock; therefore Relicanth can come out on top against Manaphy.
Against Timid Specs Latias, Draco Meteor does 48.6% - 57.6% and 24.2% - 28.7% for the 2nd hit. Therefore, Draco Meteor will always be a 3HKO at most, even with Stealth Rock taken into account, and a 4HKO without Stealth Rock. Thunderbolt is a little more dangerous, as that will do 44.4% - 52.4% for each hit, but it still might not 2HKO, even with Stealth Rock.
On the other hand, Relicanth does 56% - 65.9% per Head Smash, which is a clean 2HKO, therefore Latias has a very high chance of losing against Relicanth.
Keep in mind that I didn't invest everything into HP and Special Defense, because I wanted enough EVs to guarantee a OHKO on Gengar after Stealth Rock, since Relicanth can easily take a Focus Blast and deliver a OHKO back.
--
For a hard counter to Wacan Manaphy, RestTalk Cradily works very well (252 HP/252 SpD Careful). Cradily isn't even 2HKOed by Ice Beam, while Manaphy takes 40.4% - 48.2% from a STAB Seed Bomb. In other words, Cradily will easily win considering Manaphy is taking Sandstorm on top of this.
--
Now, before some random person comes in this thread and says "OH SO NOW WE ALL HAVE TO USE RELICANTH AND CRADILY ON OUR TEAMS TO COUNTER BLAH BLAH BLAH?!?!?!??!1" (since it always seems to happen), I'm only stating this from my experiences and the calculations that I've done. I'm not forcing anyone to use these, merely making a suggestion for people who are stuck against these suspects.
EDIT: Keep in mind that Relicanth is NOT effective if Skarmory is still alive, due to it being a fucker who can and will come in on any attack and phaze him away.
I've been using my own special blend of Relicanth in OU lately with great success, and it actually works very well in Suspect as well:
Relicanth @Leftovers
EVs: 240 HP / 36 Atk / 232 SpD
Rock Head
Careful nature (+SpD, -SpA)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Head Smash
- Waterfall / Earthquake
This variation of Relicanth has enormous Special Defensive capabilities, with 401 HP and 369 Special Defense. In addition, Grass Knots are pretty pathetic against it, because Grass Knot is only 40 BP, meaning that it requires Energy Ball or Leaf Storm to OHKO this thing on the Special side. It even survives a Modest Specs Magnezone's Thunderbolt, only taking 81.3% - 96.3%. Meanwhile, it still maintains ridiculous physical tanking capabilities, having the same HP as Swampert with only 10 less Defense with this spread.
With that, it acts as a very nice counter to Energy Ball-less Wacan Manaphy, because HP Electric only does 20.4% - 24.4% before a Tail Glow, and 40.9% - 48.4% after a Tail Glow, meaning that Manaphy will most likely be 3HKOing even after Stealth Rock with a Tail Glow. Head Smash does 45% - 53.5% to Manaphy, which is a 2HKO after Stealth Rock; therefore Relicanth can come out on top against Manaphy.
Against Timid Specs Latias, Draco Meteor does 48.6% - 57.6% and 24.2% - 28.7% for the 2nd hit. Therefore, Draco Meteor will always be a 3HKO at most, even with Stealth Rock taken into account, and a 4HKO without Stealth Rock. Thunderbolt is a little more dangerous, as that will do 44.4% - 52.4% for each hit, but it still might not 2HKO, even with Stealth Rock.
On the other hand, Relicanth does 56% - 65.9% per Head Smash, which is a clean 2HKO, therefore Latias has a very high chance of losing against Relicanth.
Keep in mind that I didn't invest everything into HP and Special Defense, because I wanted enough EVs to guarantee a OHKO on Gengar after Stealth Rock, since Relicanth can easily take a Focus Blast and deliver a OHKO back.
--
For a hard counter to Wacan Manaphy, RestTalk Cradily works very well (252 HP/252 SpD Careful). Cradily isn't even 2HKOed by Ice Beam, while Manaphy takes 40.4% - 48.2% from a STAB Seed Bomb. In other words, Cradily will easily win considering Manaphy is taking Sandstorm on top of this.
--
Now, before some random person comes in this thread and says "OH SO NOW WE ALL HAVE TO USE RELICANTH AND CRADILY ON OUR TEAMS TO COUNTER BLAH BLAH BLAH?!?!?!??!1" (since it always seems to happen), I'm only stating this from my experiences and the calculations that I've done. I'm not forcing anyone to use these, merely making a suggestion for people who are stuck against these suspects.
EDIT: Keep in mind that Relicanth is NOT effective if Skarmory is still alive, due to it being a fucker who can and will come in on any attack and phaze him away.
When I say counter most of the time I do mean checks but it goes like this:
Latias switched in
Manaphy used tail glow/ice beam
latias survives
next turn manaphy is outsped ond OHKO'd by latias
Latias switched in
Manaphy used tail glow/ice beam
latias survives
next turn manaphy is outsped ond OHKO'd by latias
Stuff like this is pointless, sorry. Among all the non-NFE pokémon, of course there is a counter to each and every pokemon. That's not what we're looking for here to consider whether or not Manaphy/Latias are OU/Uber. If one has to go out of its way and use *Cradily* in OU to counter Manaphy, it means Manaphy makes the meta unhealthy and has to go. You have to analyze pokémon that are viable in the OU environment as a whole, not simply provide a counter.
Cradily is a very viable option in OU. In the times of SpecsMence it was incredibly useful. Now with Specs Latias making a surge, it should still be useful. The problem with Cradily is that it needs Sandstorm up to really function well.
Now, about the bolded part. We don't need Cradily to counter Manaphy, just like we don't need Porygon2 to counter Gyarados. But they're still damn fine counters. What you have just said is that centralizing the metagame is good. Adding variation and giving seemingly inferior pokemon a chance is bad. Am I misinterpreting this? The whole point of the suspect test is to (1) prevent pokemon that are too powerful from being in tiers they don't belong in and (2) prevent said pokemon, or any other pokemon, from over-centralizing the metagame. Manaphy has tons of checks, all dependent on what set it carries. Using pokemon like Cradily, who also answer several other OU threats (Heatran, Empoleon, Zapdos) brings diversity to the metagame. Diversity makes the game more interesting. Pokemon like Abomasnow, Rhyperior, and Uxie all have niches in OU. What's wrong with that? In this case, a pokemon was brought up specifically to counter a threat. Porygon2 only appears in OU to answer Salamence, Gyarados, and Heatran. Whatever else it does is just by chance. Are you saying we should get rid of Gyarados because you have to bring up Porygon2 to guarantee the ability to stop Gyarados (and flinchax could change that)?
I also don't really understand the last part of your sentence. Can you explain?
lol what? What do you mean "that's not what we're looking for?" We're trying to play the game and find ways to deal with the suspects to see if dealing with them is too hard, or if it's tolerable, so it's exactly what we're looking for. Why do you think people were trying out Quagsire at the beginning of the test (UU)? Or why are people trying out Ludicolo (UU)? Why is Raikou so popular in this ladder (UU)? Why is Shaymin doing so well in this ladder (BL)? Why is Abomasnow suddenly seeing lots of usage (BL)? Now because these things get a bit of use on the ladder the metagame is suddenly "unhealthy"?
Basically what you're saying is that if the metagame has to change, even one bit, that means that whatever made it change is uber, because supposedly, it makes the metagame "unhealthy". If it has to change a lot, then perhaps that may be some indication. However, remember that "centralization", which is basically what you're describing when you essentially say that using a UU to deal with a suspect is bad, is meaningless when looking at uber status. A top threat is always going to bring other pokemon up in usage to deal with it, eg. Scizor bringing up Magnezone usage by a ridiculous amount when it got popular.
Also, you do realize that Cradily is more viable in OU than it is in any other tier due to the prevalence of Sandstorm, right?
Exactly, how do you think this metagame became what it is? Why is BP scizor so common? Because it can check salamence. Pokemon become OU based on what's popular, and how the metagame is currently set up. What he was essentially stating was that he wants to keep an overcrntalized mess of a metagame? Is introducing new pokemon into the OU tier so unheard of nowadays that it's blasphemy? Manaphy isn't broken IMO for a long list of reasons tons of people have stated before me, but in no way does he "hurt" the metagame because he introduces other viable pokemon have the power to stop him better than other things in OU. That's just how competetive pokemon went back in the day. I do think some people don't want manaphy in OU because they think it will change how overcentralized the game is today.
I don't really have much to comment on for this stage of the suspect process, other than that I am sick of Jirachi always haxing my ass. This proves more annoying when you consider I use a balance team that beats Jirachi fairly easily otherwise.
---
Seriously, here are my thoughts on the suspects so far:
Latias: The Choice Specs set is obviously its most powerful, and in my opinion, qualifies it for Uber status. I've seen most people use ScarfTar to beat it, which really only wins 50% of the time. Other attempts at counters I've seen are Specially Defensive Jirachi and Metagross, which, are ok but Latias can always switch out and continue firing off Draco Meteors.
Manaphy: I've been using Scarf Manaphy for most of my laddering so far, which has been doing great. However, the Tail Glow set is still very powerful and really sweeps through teams when played in the right hands. Both of my teams have a way to handle it (Specs Latias, DDWacanGyara lure, and Blissey), but outside of that, little else stops it. I'd go as far as to say the mono-attacking Manaphy is also broken since little stops it after it racks up sufficient Calm Minds, and it doesn't suffer from two turns of resting like Suicune. The best way I've been able to beat it is by Tricking it Choice Specs, but that isn't very reliable.
---
Seriously, here are my thoughts on the suspects so far:
Latias: The Choice Specs set is obviously its most powerful, and in my opinion, qualifies it for Uber status. I've seen most people use ScarfTar to beat it, which really only wins 50% of the time. Other attempts at counters I've seen are Specially Defensive Jirachi and Metagross, which, are ok but Latias can always switch out and continue firing off Draco Meteors.
Manaphy: I've been using Scarf Manaphy for most of my laddering so far, which has been doing great. However, the Tail Glow set is still very powerful and really sweeps through teams when played in the right hands. Both of my teams have a way to handle it (Specs Latias, DDWacanGyara lure, and Blissey), but outside of that, little else stops it. I'd go as far as to say the mono-attacking Manaphy is also broken since little stops it after it racks up sufficient Calm Minds, and it doesn't suffer from two turns of resting like Suicune. The best way I've been able to beat it is by Tricking it Choice Specs, but that isn't very reliable.
For Latias, just to note, Jirachi and Metagross can still act as counters for it. The CM + Wish Jirachi can use Latias as setup bait if it comes in on something that isn't Trick. A Specs Surf only does 34.2% - 40.3%, meaning that Jirachi can just come in, Wish, Calm Mind, and start setting up. Latias is also in a lot of trouble against the Scarf set (which I assume is the thing that's been haxing the hell out of you). For Metagross, they've been running Pursuit more often, so it's not quite that easy to just switch out and come back in.
Also, I have a few comments about what you said about Manaphy. You say that "the Tail Glow set is still very powerful and really sweeps through teams when played in the right hands", but that's just it. It sweeps through teams "when played in the right hands". Not everyone who plays suspect is an absolute guru at playing pokemon, and this is something I've been thinking about for a while. While they may not be horrible, if the average player is genuinely having trouble sweeping with the Tail Glow set, even with a good team, then as far as I'm concerned, it's not uber. A ridiculously good player can make even a weaker pokemon sweep, because they know very well how to get rid of that pokemon's counters, and the best times to switch it in, while an average player (read: not a horrible one) may not. I personally don't think this is a broken set, because it's still really hard to get a clean sweep if there are any Scarf users or pokemon over 328 Speed on the opposing team, which honestly aren't hard to come by. While it seems very hard to counter on paper, this honestly just isn't the way it works out if faster pokemon aren't gone. They discourage it from Tail Glowing, and make it hard to sweep, so therefore they must be removed before Manaphy can sweep. According to the offensive characteristic, it should not require this much effort to sweep to qualify for uber, so I don't believe it fits it.
About the mono-attacking set, I highly disagree with you on that one being a broken set. So many things are carrying Electric attacks in this ladder, and there's a lot of U-turning happening as well. When I used it, I found it ridiculously hard to set the mono-attacking Manaphy up, because not only is there Water Absorbers such as Vaporeon, or a 4x resist like Kingdra that you have to get rid of, but this variant uses so much HP and Defense EVs that it's so slow and weak, and getting something like 4 Calm Minds to sweep is not easy with how offensive this ladder is. If TTar, Hippowdon, or Abomasnow come in on the Rest (or in Abomasnow's case, anything that isn't Rain Dance), Manaphy's sweep is in danger of ending, if it even began at all. I don't believe this would fit the offensive characteristic either, because it needs to get rid of any weather changers, get rid of Water Absorbers, any Trickers will make your life trouble, and stuff like opposing Kingdra will thank you for doubling its Speed while taking next to nothing from your attacks. I personally thought this set was better when Garchomp was still around, because he could at least help by getting rid of Electrics, also absorbing Trick pretty nicely.
EDIT: @nightmarez:
This doesn't even work. The type-resist berries only work if you're weak against the attack (with the exception of the Normal-resist berry).
Flashstorm has beat me. All I can say is that the most viable manaphy set seems to be the scarfed one. What do you guys think of a:
lumgross with MM and BP
-
-
specslatias
sdlucario
tail glow manaphy
hmmm I'm gonna go do some damage calcs on a haban berry CMmanaphy
hehehehe
NightmareZ
oh well thats a pain now isn't it
How about a life orbed CMphy
After a bit of calcs I'm thinking that are CMphy with expert belt 252hp/6spe/252spa modest CM, surf, ice beam, hp electric
works pretty well on paper but the lack of speed is dissapointing but it can survive a draco metoer from specs latias after a CM and KO back with ice beamwith 50% hp left(not including SR)
Does heart swap work on specs pokes?
lumgross with MM and BP
-
-
specslatias
sdlucario
tail glow manaphy
hmmm I'm gonna go do some damage calcs on a haban berry CMmanaphy
hehehehe
NightmareZ
oh well thats a pain now isn't it
How about a life orbed CMphy
After a bit of calcs I'm thinking that are CMphy with expert belt 252hp/6spe/252spa modest CM, surf, ice beam, hp electric
works pretty well on paper but the lack of speed is dissapointing but it can survive a draco metoer from specs latias after a CM and KO back with ice beamwith 50% hp left(not including SR)
Does heart swap work on specs pokes?
I wonder how many people have tried CB Snorlax in this Suspect test. It can take Draco Meteors reasonably easily and Pursuit Latias on the way out. It can survive a +2 Surf from Manaphy easily as well, taking 41.56% - 48.92% (Manaphy is Timid, and there is no Life Orb, Snorlax is Adamant and HP/SpD EVs are 4/252 respectively), while CB'd Body Slam does 59.65% - 70.18% (Snorlax is Adamant max Attack, and Manaphy is 4/0), an easy 2HKO.
I use CB Snorlax sometimes, but I don't run Pursuit. Maybe I should run Pursuit...
first post in a long time in a suspect thread x)
I've used both suspects, (especially latias since it's been around for a while) extensively and I really feel like both are Uber. Latias's Choice Specs set is extremely overwhelming, and while it has a "hard" counter in Blissey, it can cripple it for the rest of the battle with Trick which is something to be said.
Recently though, I've been using Expert Belt Latias which has done extremely well. It has taken up to 3-4 Pokemon down, easily, because many people assume it's Choice Specs.
As for Manaphy, I believe "Cro"phy (Calm Mind / Rest/ Rain Dance / Surf) is the most powerful, though I haven't used Tail Glow nearly as much as I have this variant. Manaphy's attacks are very powerful and I don't believe it has ANY hard counters in the current metagame. I've heard some people say Blissey (and even Snorlax) stop Manaphy, but if you switch a Blissey into the CM/Rest version of Manaphy it's basically game over you. Another thing that's interesting to note is that all of Manaphy's "checks" (Latias, Zapdos, Jolteon, Raikou) are pretty much demolished by Scarf (or some other versions) Tyranitar. I'm not going to go into the Tail Glow or Choice Scarf versions of Manaphy since I haven't used them as much. CS is good for utility and scouting, as well as revenge killing, like others have said. Tail Glow, in my opinion, isn't as threatening as CM Manaphy unless your Electric/Grass types have taken some previous damage, though in most of my battles where I've faced a Tail Glow Manaphy it's taken down a Pokemon.
While neither Pokemon is "extremely" Uber like Deoxys-S or a Pokemon like Groudon or Kyogre would be, I think they are both overpowering and overcentralizing enough to be classified as such.
I really hope more people participate in this stage, I've noticed a lot of times where there've been huge lulls on the Ladder :(
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Sorry if this post was a little disjointed!
I've used both suspects, (especially latias since it's been around for a while) extensively and I really feel like both are Uber. Latias's Choice Specs set is extremely overwhelming, and while it has a "hard" counter in Blissey, it can cripple it for the rest of the battle with Trick which is something to be said.
Recently though, I've been using Expert Belt Latias which has done extremely well. It has taken up to 3-4 Pokemon down, easily, because many people assume it's Choice Specs.
As for Manaphy, I believe "Cro"phy (Calm Mind / Rest/ Rain Dance / Surf) is the most powerful, though I haven't used Tail Glow nearly as much as I have this variant. Manaphy's attacks are very powerful and I don't believe it has ANY hard counters in the current metagame. I've heard some people say Blissey (and even Snorlax) stop Manaphy, but if you switch a Blissey into the CM/Rest version of Manaphy it's basically game over you. Another thing that's interesting to note is that all of Manaphy's "checks" (Latias, Zapdos, Jolteon, Raikou) are pretty much demolished by Scarf (or some other versions) Tyranitar. I'm not going to go into the Tail Glow or Choice Scarf versions of Manaphy since I haven't used them as much. CS is good for utility and scouting, as well as revenge killing, like others have said. Tail Glow, in my opinion, isn't as threatening as CM Manaphy unless your Electric/Grass types have taken some previous damage, though in most of my battles where I've faced a Tail Glow Manaphy it's taken down a Pokemon.
While neither Pokemon is "extremely" Uber like Deoxys-S or a Pokemon like Groudon or Kyogre would be, I think they are both overpowering and overcentralizing enough to be classified as such.
I really hope more people participate in this stage, I've noticed a lot of times where there've been huge lulls on the Ladder :(
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Sorry if this post was a little disjointed!
Well I know a counter to that set Jimbo. Vaporeon*cough*. anyway as said it needs a whole lot of calm minds to sweep.
However who said kingdra counters this set. Its facing 95 base power neutrally effective hit from a +1 or +2 or +3 manaphy (STAB and rain balance out the resists)
However who said kingdra counters this set. Its facing 95 base power neutrally effective hit from a +1 or +2 or +3 manaphy (STAB and rain balance out the resists)
Let us examine what is being used to deal with the increase in Latias. The most prominent Pokemon that has risen up against Latias, Scarf Tyranitar, does a better job of dealing with Latias than theorymon would suggest. In order to win, Latias absolutely has to use a Specs set, and has to use Surf as Tyranitar switches in, and then Latias has to win the 50/50 prediction contest. Or Latias has to use Draco Meteor as Tyranitar switches in, win the 50/50 prediction contest, and the use Draco Meteor again, and the chances of two consecutive Draco Meteors hitting is just 66%. So Specs Latias's chances of winning against Scarftar are actually low. And other Latias sets are always hard-countered by Scarftar, with the exception of a gimmicky Colbur Berry set. Choice Band Metagross and Snorlax work similarly to Choice Scarf Tyranitar in that Latias has to predict perfectly as they come in, and then predict perfectly again as to whether to switch out. Against Blissey, another common Latias counter, Latias has to predict perfectly and use Trick. And even after Trick, Blissey can still force Latias out with Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. Trick is a one-time use for Latias, which means that Latias only gets one chance to remove a counter with Trick. Teams often carry more than one Latias counter, so even if Blissey gets Tricked, ones team will probably be able to deal with the less-threatening Leftovers Latias. Latias has many viable counters and checks, making it not be Uber.
EDIT: NighmareZ mentioned that all these Pokemon can be easily set up on by SDLuke. But some of the Pokemon that stop Latias can also stop SD Luke. Scarf Jirachi can counter both Latias and SD Luke, and Scarftar can either revenge-kill it, or can switch in on anything other than Close Combat. And even if Lucario does get a free turn to set up, most teams will be able to deal with it using other Pokemon. So it's not a problem that Lucario often gets a free turn when used with Latias.
EDIT: NighmareZ mentioned that all these Pokemon can be easily set up on by SDLuke. But some of the Pokemon that stop Latias can also stop SD Luke. Scarf Jirachi can counter both Latias and SD Luke, and Scarftar can either revenge-kill it, or can switch in on anything other than Close Combat. And even if Lucario does get a free turn to set up, most teams will be able to deal with it using other Pokemon. So it's not a problem that Lucario often gets a free turn when used with Latias.
The fact is that all of those pokes really dont like sdluke. Which can easily set up against almost all of those pokes
Are you talking about crophy? crophy only carries surf, and kingdra has a quadruple resist to water. Stab+rain vs a 4x resist is not 95 base power, run the math again. Assuming crophy has a bulky set(which it should) +3 surf fails to 2hko kingra(34.02% - 40.21%), who even gets a swift swim bonus. DD swift swim kingdra is going to crush crophy every time. Rain dish ludicolo also walls the shit out of crophy.